141 réponses à ce sujet

[capn233]

You won't die more often if you go pure Str.  While Con will give you a little more health per point, you are dropping damage, attack, and making it more likely the enemy passes your physical resistance checks.  You need high armor rating, and you need to be mindful of fights with shattering shot / sunder armor enemies.  The main positive thing Con does for 2H is increase physical resistance (which reduces the length of sunders when they are applied), but Str does that as well.

[Elhanan]

In DAO, still prefer 20 CON for 2H, 20 WILL for Stamina, CUN 16, MGC base, DEX 20; remaining in STR. These are end game goals, so I try and plan accordingly.

Also, do not usually travel to Haven until after three main quests have been completed. This allows for some better armors and weapons to be located, upgraded, and utilized.

[SherryGold]

I see.  I don't end up picking up Zevran until the usual time, so like in last game Zev was level 11.  No combat movement or coup de grace even at that point.  I would need to go through saves to see when auto-level gives him those two skills.  I make him strength most of the time these days just for the sake of making him a hipster really.

 

As far as 2H goes, I understand why people might not like them.  They aren't exactly DPS, they are sort of control, and they are not exactly tanks so what are they?  Regarding aesthetics, it is pretty funny that dwarf 2H typically drags his sword through the ground.

I haven't picked up Zev the normal way since well I can't remember. I don't think I was disappointed with his spec though when I got him the normal way. I remember him having combat stealth but I cannot remember what other talents he had at the time. I will be interested to know.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't have tried a 2H main had I not discovered the power of double haste. I've seen too many times Zevran mocking two handers with 'Too slow' and that did put me off trying the specialization for a long time. I'm sure you could still do it on the nightmare difficulty without double haste but it would be harder. Once Wynne joins, she becomes pretty valuable to my 2H warden. I drop her from the team for the anvil of the void quest, but it's a fairly late stage in the game and by then keeping him alive isn't a problem. He is pretty much awesome by then.

[SherryGold]

Does anyone know why rogues benefit more from telechinic weapon spell than warriors? At level 16 or 17, Morrigan's spell adds nearly 20 armor penetration bonus to rogues, while with warrior, it seems only 10?

[Elhanan]

Does anyone know why rogues benefit more from telechinic weapon spell than warriors? At level 16 or 17, Morrigan's spell adds nearly 20 armor penetration bonus to rogues, while with warrior, it seems only 10?

Perhaps bonuses to daggers and piercing weapons has something to do with it?

[SherryGold]

When you are being hit, at will, by a high damager, more Con is not the solution, getting out of the line of fire is. I would bet Kolgrims hit rate on 59 defense is 100%.

 

My 2H main had to run away and let my mage Force Field Kolgrim until the whole party could take him down.

 

My Dex-Rogue could just take him on toe to toe, and win every time.

 

Playing through the Sacred Ashes caverns as both recently was instructive.  When I played this as a DW-Dex-Rogue main with combat stealth, I scouted in and killed all the mages, disabled all the traps, so my party steamrolled it with ease, I often forgot to bring the party along, my rogue could pretty much solo.

 

Playing as a 2H main(dwarf), in KCP with a couple of anti magic runes, I was largely resistant to spells so I charged the Mages, only to see Resisted, while a cone of cold still froze me in place every friggen time, and then mage wreaked havoc with spells, as reavers beat on me. Much messier going.

 

Maybe your party set up isn't ideal for a 2H warden. Once Zev and Wynne joined the party my 2H never had a single injury or needed a forcefield from Morrigan, even before the only time he died was in Lothering, and I was, like you, playing 2H for the first time. I wouldn't use 2H without double haste for the most part and I would want at least one haste as he cannot have momentum. It certainly makes things a lot easier. If you want Alistair in the team, which I respect as he is the essential part of the team you want, you will never get double haste. I'm sure it can be done without double haste just a lot tougher. Maybe 2H just isn't for you.

[Elhanan]

Having Haste is not required to enjoy 2H, as it is my fave Warrior choice, and have used it often. S&S is rather dull, and the others are better handled by a Rogue, IMO.

[SherryGold]

Perhaps bonuses to daggers and piercing weapons has something to do with it?

Well, my main is a strength rogue and has a sword and dagger and he still gets 20 bonus to his main hand as well as his off hand. It seems rather strange that the armor penetration bonus applies differently to a warrior and a rogue.

[SherryGold]

Having Haste is not required to enjoy 2H, as it is my fave Warrior choice, and have used it often. S&S is rather dull, and the others are better handled by a Rogue, IMO.

I'm sure it can be done in any set up. Mine just makes things a whole lot easier for a 2H warden, I think.

[Elhanan]

Well, my main is a strength rogue and has a sword and dagger and he still gets 20 bonus to his main hand as well as his off hand. It seems rather strange that the armor penetration bonus applies differently to a warrior and a rogue.

Cunning increases AP

[SherryGold]

Cunning increases AP

Yes, but I don't think the armor penetration bonus from the spell has anything to do with cunning. The spell adds 20 to base AP the rogues get from dagger and cunning. Currently both warden and Zev, when the spell comes to effect, has over 30 AP both their main hand and off hand ( or maybe the warden's main hand AP is slightly lower than 30 but not far off). Neither of them is cunning rogue. I don't want more than 22 cunning for either of them to unlock master stealth and their base cunning is exactly that..

[Blazomancer]

@SherryGold - That is because of the way the game engine processes certain enchantments in a dual wield setup, i.e. some enchantments effectively apply to both weapons. For example, if you equip The Rose's Thorn and The Edge, you'll get +8 damage bonus (3+5) for either weapon hit. As is the case here, you are seeing the same thing with the AP bonus.

@Snowdog 65: Yeah playing 2H without a tank or soloing as one requires specific approaches. I'll admit the balance is a bit skewed, but rogues, DEX based or otherwise, aren't completely self-sufficient either. The Kolgrim fight you mention can easily make a DEX rogue reload if the variables play out a bit different - eg. getting hit by a Misdirection Hex while taking out one mage, or say getting CoC'd while approaching the other. Combat Stealth is awesome, but it still has 10 s cool down and much can happen in that duration if the party members don't kick in. Another potent example is the random encounter when a troop of Templars and two mages confront the warden for stealing in the circle. Point is you'd need help and/or metagaming knowhow at times, don't see why the 2H shouldn't have it either. Only the 2H would need it more frequently than the rogue; and that is more of a balancing issue than anything - there are more battles that tests a 2Hander's deficiency, namely Defense, than those that tests a DEX rogue's, namely mental and spell resistance.

[Snowdog65]

Telekinetic weapons gives double bonus for DW? I see it on the character sheet, but is it really in effect?  Yet another DW advantage.

 

@Blazo

Sure a mage could have blasted my rogue. I have the save for both games and replayed them a couple of times.

 

In each case I was directing the rest of the party to take on the mages, while my main took on Kolgrim. It's no contest. My rogue has 74 more points of defense, so is hit less than half as often and his DPS is higher, so he finishes faster.

 

@Sheri

Yeah, I think might try out Double Haste, but still that brings out the issue that 2H so painfully slow, that they are crying out for this kind of support.

 

2H has some nice features (Mainly 2H Sweep and Indomitable), but really has a LOT more downsides IMO.

[capn233]

Double haste has the downside of worsening your talents via attack penalty.  I basically don't bother.  Could run Blood Thirst instead for one of them if you have Warden's Keep.

 

War Cry and Rally are obviously also helpful for 2H in the Kolgrim fight, or against various elites.  Of course this depends on when you do Urn (Champion likely second spec, so post 14...).

 

edit: also hasn't been mentioned apparently in the thread, but percent dodge gear is worthwhile on 2H.

[Blazomancer]

^Yeah warriors can have upto 3 AoE knockdowns which can be quite helpful. A rogue can OTOH summon a pet for additional damage soaking and DPS; Mark of Death will boost the net damage output of the whole party. So, all in all, it appears to me the effects of things like these (spamming talents, incoming debilitations, movement speed, AoE talents, party wide bonuses, etc.) on actual DPS in a certain battle are rather hard to quantize. I mean a 2H might have stun immunity, but can potentially get shredded to bits when there are a lot of long ranged scattershots; similarly, a rogue can be made mincemeat of if Ser Cauthrien gets to the point of activating Perfect Striking. Cross build comparisons seem more hypothetical than practical when not done on a criteria basis. Even on a criteria basis, things can and do get murky oftentimes, eg. DPS comparison between mages and dual wielders during certain scenarios or between a talent spamming DW warrior and a backstabbing CUNN rogue, survivability of a SnS warrior vs that of a DEX rogue.

Edit:*minor

[SherryGold]

Yes, that's the downside of haste. -5 Attack penalty for each haste that seems like nothing but the game seems to punish you heavily if your attack score shows red. If I unlock Morrigan's haste too early, I see a lot of misses. So, I tend to unlock it after she has crushing prison and heal. Plus not much point doing it before you go into the mage's tower as those templars are constantly going to cleanse area and Uldred seems to have dispell in his arsenal. But once you have a decent attack score, its advantage seems to outweigh its disadvantage. You often hear Morrigan's 'it's far too easy' and Zev's 'how invigorating that was' in battles you previously thought difficult. I stopped using disguise during Anora rescue mission and just in awe of the team slaughtering their way through the entire quest from then on (alright, it's not quite a role play thing to do but I can't resist any battle that I found hard previously. The only reason I tend to fight Flemith. I don't believe in attacking her ethically. She saved the warden's life and it feels wrong.). The effect really can be ridiculously awesome at times. Also there is a matter of saving your stamina as momentum can come off easily at an early stage of the game.

My Wardens tend to be obsessed with grabbing any stamina regeneration items as a result and anything that saves stamina cost is welcome. 

 

Personally I don't use anything that interferes with health, though I sometimes try bloodmage if my main is a mage purely because its effectiveness as a crowd control method. Still, I'm sure some people can use blood thirst and tainted blood very effectively and benefit from the use. As you said, the game is flexible enough to try a lot of different approaches and come out as a winner. Whatever works for the player is the way to go in the end.

[Snowdog65]

I would much rather an extra -5 attack penalty, than the Blood Thirst penalties (-12 damage/round and 20% extra damage from enemies, and annoying animation).

 

The real downside for me of double haste is Dumping Alistair for another mage.

[Snowdog65]

^Ogre charge will stagger you a bit, just like with Shield Wall.  You can get grabbed, but this is more of a theoretical since 2H can potentially 2 shot nightmare ogres before they can get a chance (MB and Sunder where you have a decent chance of MB stunning the ogre).  Ogre Alphas are really the only ones you need to be too concerned with.

 

 

Are Ogres that wimpy? Right now my 2H is level 15 with 86 Str(with gear).  Using 2H Starfang.

 

I don't even 2 shot basic mobs. Basic Cultist reavers were taking 3 or 4 hits.

 

3 hits every time to take down a basic hurlocks/genlocks (Chantry board refugee quest).

[capn233]

Cross build comparisons seem more hypothetical than practical when not done on a criteria basis. Even on a criteria basis, things can and do get murky oftentimes, eg. DPS comparison between mages and dual wielders during certain scenarios or between a talent spamming DW warrior and a backstabbing CUNN rogue, survivability of a SnS warrior vs that of a DEX rogue.

Edit:*minor

 

Yes.  Too many combinations of things to theorycraft specifics when 4 party members and half a dozen enemies.

 

Are Ogres that wimpy? Right now my 2H is level 15 with 86 Str(with gear).  Using 2H Starfang.

 

I don't even 2 shot basic mobs. Basic Cultist reavers were taking 3 or 4 hits.

 

3 hits every time to take down a basic hurlocks/genlocks (Chantry board refugee quest).

 

Last 2H did this with CGM (+ precise striking).  Don't have it the whole game, but CGM has bigger attribute modifier than Starfang and better AP.  Technically I suppose you could say Mighty Blow + Sunder is 3 hits, but it is two button presses.  With all low-ball rolls you might need an auto-attack.

 

I don't remember how many exactly it was for lieutenant ogres, if it was like one or two more hits.  As above Alphas obviously take more.

 

I have saves throughout my last 2H run and might be able to look at how many Yusaris needs in Brecillian.  Probably have one in Deep Roads, and definitely have the Denerim Market save.

[Snowdog65]

CGM is better than Starfang, but this is also question of how wimpy Ogres are when Basic Mobs take three hits with Starfang and maxed out strength.

 

CGM might be 20% more damage tops? Wouldn't an Ogre have more than 20% more health than a white Genlock/Hurlock.

[Blazomancer]

Yeah warriors can end up with pretty decent critical chance, can't they?

[Qis]

Why would you think I am a Reaver?  I never unlocked that specialization on any playthrough.

 

I don't think you're Reaver, i only mention IF...

 

If yes, the Constitution help you not fall too early before get full damage bonus

 

If not, then Constitution help you stay alive anyway

 

There is nothing wrong with having more Constitution/Health

[capn233]

CGM is better than Starfang, but this is also question of how wimpy Ogres are when Basic Mobs take three hits with Starfang and maxed out strength.

 

CGM might be 20% more damage tops? Wouldn't an Ogre have more than 20% more health than a white Genlock/Hurlock.

 

I don't know, there isn't a readily available reference sadly.  You can't really test against trash mobs in Denerim since those mobs are like Level 1 or some crap so it isn't a real test.

 

But here are more data points for whatever it is worth.  Didn't have a good Deep Roads save (only one was in Anvil after killing the Ogre).  Reverse:

 

Denerim Market L23 - HoH, Evon's, Andruil's, Spellward, Lifegiver, KttC, CGM, (PS up)

 

White Ogre - Basically MB or CS (auto crit) then Sunder Armor.  The gear is decent for solo, but there is more damage available.  If you get bad rolls it is possible for a sliver of health to be left, so one more AA.  That didn't seem to happen with one of Powerful Swings or Berserker up.  Harvest ring wasn't in inventory, I think it was on Zev, so couldn't grab it to see if it made a difference.  Damage difference would be real small though.

 

Yellow - MB + Sunder Armor +Sunder Arms = dead

 

Kolgrim L14 - HoH, Diligence Set, Andruil's, Magister's Shield, KttC, Harvest, Yusaris (Att 122, Def 73, Arm 31)

 

Had 3 in Champion, all of top line for Warrior, then PS, and all 2H except Destroyer.  Squad was around so had them kill the mages and erase Misdirection, then go hide.

 

I can't remember if Kolgrim ever even runs Indomitable, which is why I actually loaded this.  He hasn't to my recollection in the last several runs, and didn't this time.  So initial 2H sweep to knock him down and his lackeys, War Cry, attacked lackeys.  Then for fighting Kolgrim I just used Pommel when off cooldown.  The first was resisted though and also I didn't remember Rally, so that necessitated a heal.  Next pommel worked, Rally up, and then he didn't hit me nearly as much as I hit him.

 

Brecillian L13 - Same as above, except T3 Heavy Chainmail chest, and no Magister's -> slapped on Pearl (117, 68, 25)

 

All the ogres were actually yellow, I thought there was a standard one.  Anyway lower level less str mod and different scaling:

 

MB + Sunder Armor + AA + Sunder Arms then usually death animation (so hidden AA).

 

I thought Ram staggered you slightly with Indomitable up (if not in animation), but it doesn't even if you just stand there.  Also of note, 25 armor and no Con investment is sufficient to survive a yellow ogre grab here (last one in E Brec grabbed me).

 

I don't have Starfang in old saves since I only bought UE this summer on sale.  I guess I could have looked at Dragonbone cleaver in Brecillian, but they weren't white ogres anyway.

[Snowdog65]

White doesn't necessary mean level 1 unless there is huge HP with level one.

 

Level 14-15 encounters with Starfang. I am doing about 70-80 damage on a hit unless I get a rare crit.

 

I have seen nothing that dies in two hits. White Hurlocks/Genlocks/Bandits/Wolves all take between 3 and 4 hits to kill.  Now you can use Sunder to double hit.

 

The thing is these should be trash mobs. You have enough talents to deal with one or two before you are back to dismal auto attack speed, waiting for cooldowns and stamina regen.

 

I discovered another negative. People laud how 2H's don't get stunned by scattershot.  Now instead I am getting my armor debuffed and the archers are killing me quite quickly.

 

Much like you pointed out I must have had my Armor sundered by Kolgrim (I believe you were correct) before.  Everything hits me with whatever armor debuffs they have. And since my Defense sucks, they are largely hitting me at will, Everything succeeds in debuffing my armor, and then I play pincushion with both low defense and low armor. I am now a heal potion chugging, injury kit consuming machine. 

 

People call Rogues Squishy, but it is really 2H's that are squishy.

[capn233]

White doesn't necessary mean level 1 unless there is huge HP with level one.

That was specifically about white mobs in Battle of Denerim, which is why everything one-shots them. If I went to attack any of them in the same place as I was hitting the ogres with CGM it wouldn't be a worthwhile comparison to the ogres I was killing there wrt level scaling because those mooks are not scaled.  FWIW the yellow Emissary (scaled) there did take about as many hits as the yellow ogre.

 

The only mobs I killed in those saves were in Brecillian (L13) w/ Yusaris since I had to go through the whole forest to get to the ogres.  Wolves are one crit and another hit.  Werewolves are four total hits if the first is a crit.  Zevran (L12) takes a lot longer to kill anything by himself here (not surprising, unless you were to spend all money equipping Zev this early).

 

Yes sunders are the main problem for 2H, really the only problem if late game Templar 2H.  Scattershots (auto-hit) are basically irrelevant to 2H, unlike a dex character who may just die if stunned.  As above, buffing physical resist on 2H w/ hale will reduce the likelihood that you fail the check to get the sunder applied, and if you do fail it the duration is reduced.