141 réponses à ce sujet

[SherryGold]

White doesn't necessary mean level 1 unless there is huge HP with level one.

 

Level 14-15 encounters with Starfang. I am doing about 70-80 damage on a hit unless I get a rare crit.

 

I have seen nothing that dies in two hits. White Hurlocks/Genlocks/Bandits/Wolves all take between 3 and 4 hits to kill.  Now you can use Sunder to double hit.

 

The thing is these should be trash mobs. You have enough talents to deal with one or two before you are back to dismal auto attack speed, waiting for cooldowns and stamina regen.

 

I discovered another negative. People laud how 2H's don't get stunned by scattershot.  Now instead I am getting my armor debuffed and the archers are killing me quite quickly.

 

Much like you pointed out I must have had my Armor sundered by Kolgrim (I believe you were correct) before.  Everything hits me with whatever armor debuffs they have. And since my Defense sucks, they are largely hitting me at will, Everything succeeds in debuffing my armor, and then I play pincushion with both low defense and low armor. I am now a heal potion chugging, injury kit consuming machine. 

 

People call Rogues Squishy, but it is really 2H's that are squishy.

You know your experience as 2H is so different from mine that it makes a pretty interesting read. It made me realize what a brilliant support he had from his team, cause I always felt invincible from level 10 or so. That Kolgrim fight you mentioned went like this for me. (I think the warden and zev were both level 14 or so) I had Morrigan casting crushing prison on the nearer mage (good thing too. Had I made her cast it on Kongrim, he would have been determined to kill her and she would have been dead as she did not have misdirection hex at the time) and sent after my 2H to the nearest white mage. I then made Wynne cast a petrify to another mage and sent Zevran after the second mage. With double haste both the warden and Zevran completed the task and came back before Kongrim and his minions recovered from mind blast, glyph of paralasis, waking nightmare, heal, group heal or whatever the mages had in their defense arsenal. (Not sure exactly how they held out. I wasn't watching the mages but I trusted that they could last a short while with what they had) The three went down quickly. I believe the warden sundered Kolgrim and Zevran marked him before backstabbing him to death in no time. It was no trouble at all. Afterwards, Morrigan declared the fight was far too easy.

[Snowdog65]

You have two mages to my one.

 

Mages>Everything. So a three mage party would find things even easier. If I had two mages. I could have took out both enemy mages instantly, instead one had many opportunities to get off spells.

 

It's just a big adjustment playing such a squishy main (2h) after playing a more robust Rogue main.

 

I now get hit at will. This is a BIG difference. It also means I get pinned/shattered/sundered MUCH more than I ever did as a rogue, and with my crappy defense, the downsides of being sundered/shattered are that much worse.  Before play as a 2H, I went through the game multiple times, never even noticing this effect.

 

2H is doable, but it IMO the least durable of all melee characters, and close to SnS for the worse DPS.

 

Before I did this respec to play a 2H main, my opinion was:

 

Melee Rogue > 2H Warrior.

 

After trying it:

 

Melee Rogue >>>>> 2H Warrior.

[capn233]

^AI doesn't use shattering shot or sunder armor against player characters if they run a light chest-piece, so that may be part of why your rogue wouldn't get sundered as often.

 

Don't know what to say about pinning shot.  It's a physical resistance check and warriors going all str should have decent resistance (even better with hale rune obviously).  Don't remember getting pinned much after Lothering on these guys.

[SherryGold]

You have two mages to my one.

 

Mages>Everything. So a three mage party would find things even easier. If I had two mages. I could have took out both enemy mages instantly, instead one had many opportunities to get off spells.

 

It's just a big adjustment playing such a squishy main (2h) after playing a more robust Rogue main.

 

I now get hit at will. This is a BIG difference. It also means I get pinned/shattered/sundered MUCH more than I ever did as a rogue, and with my crappy defense, the downsides of being sundered/shattered are that much worse.  Before play as a 2H, I went through the game multiple times, never even noticing this effect.

 

2H is doable, but it IMO the least durable of all melee characters, and close to SnS for the worse DPS.

 

Before I did this respec to play a 2H main, my opinion was:

 

Melee Rogue > 2H Warrior.

 

After trying it:

 

Melee Rogue >>>>> 2H Warrior.

Unless you give mana clash to both mages, not sure how you can take out even a white mage with just one spell. You would need at least mana clash or crushing prison + curse of mortality in quick succession on nightmare difficulty setting. Mana clash is awesome, but it only applies to mages and I can't afford to give it to either mage by level 14. But true. Two mages tend to make things easier, but not always true. Depending on how you set up mages and which enemy you are dealing with. For instance I found Shale more useful than Wynne when dealing with werewolves. Double haste is not an answer to everything. And neither is a high dex. Shadow wolves will overwhelm you no matter how high your dex is and being light armored with low health, it can be pretty fatal for a rogue to be overwhelmed. Before double haste, my favorite set up was one warrior tank (either Alistair or Shale or even Sten just for his threaten and taunt), two DW melee rogues and a mage. It worked pretty well. Two mages - no problem. After double haste, I just can't bring myself going back to the slower speed again, unless I have to, and I tend to use a whole lot less of everyone else who doesn't fit into the set up, which is why I sometimes play as a mage. Playing as a mage, you find your life so much easier and also find it easier to keep your whole team alive. I can use Alistair for a while, then dog, then Shale and then Lel, and then back to Alistair, though I think once double haste kick in Lel becomes a better choice then Alistair (I've used Lel with Zev the whole way through once and she beat party damage contribution of my main. It should be noted that when my main is a mage, the focus is making the whole team strong and alive and not decimating everything on his way. You can have a mage as a main who will easily achieve over 50 percent party damage contribution). I value Morrigan, but her initial set up has so many problems. no tactic slot, invested points in shapeshifting, low magic score, points all over the place and still no heal. My mage is so much more effective than Morrigan.

 

I've played three mages set up and though it was more or less smooth, I found two melee, two mage set up better. Part of the reason is I probably set up all three mages in the same way I would set up for two melee, two mage set up. When you use a different set up, you need to develop different talents, etc, and I didn't do that so I thought two mage, two melee was better. Point being that when you try a different main, you probably need a different set up and strategies. I think part of your 2H main problem is that you are so used to play as a dex rogue and probably didn't do much to adjust the set up for a 2H main. My set up doesn't allow for enemy archers to live long. The enemies are often sleeping, being stunned or paralysed. So that's why I never noticed the problems your 2H main encountered.

 

Still I see why you prefer a dex rogue and I'm a huge fan of dex rogues and their awesome battle prowess. I get mad when people think rogues are only ever good for lockpicking and cannot survive on nightmare difficulty.

[Snowdog65]

Unless you give mana clash to both mages, not sure how you can take out even a white mage with just one spell. You would need at least mana clash or crushing prison + curse of mortality in quick succession on nightmare difficulty setting. Mana clash is awesome, but it only applies to mages and I can't afford to give it to either mage by level 14. But true. Two mages tend to make things easier, but not always true. Depending on how you set up mages and which enemy you are dealing with. For instance I found Shale more useful than Wynne when dealing with werewolves. Double haste is not an answer to everything. And neither is a high dex. Shadow wolves will overwhelm you no matter how high your dex is and being light armored with low health, it can be pretty fatal for a rogue to be overwhelmed. Before double haste, my favorite set up was one warrior tank (either Alistair or Shale or even Sten just for his threaten and taunt), two DW melee rogues and a mage. It worked pretty well. Two mages - no problem. After double haste, I just can't bring myself going back to the slower speed again, unless I have to, and I tend to use a whole lot less of everyone else who doesn't fit into the set up, which is why I sometimes play as a mage. Playing as a mage, you find your life so much easier and also find it easier to keep your whole team alive. I can use Alistair for a while, then dog, then Shale and then Lel, and then back to Alistair, though I think once double haste kick in Lel becomes a better choice then Alistair (I've used Lel with Zev the whole way through once and she beat party damage contribution of my main. It should be noted that when my main is a mage, the focus is making the whole team strong and alive and not decimating everything on his way. You can have a mage as a main who will easily achieve over 50 percent party damage contribution). I value Morrigan, but her initial set up has so many problems. no tactic slot, invested points in shapeshifting, low magic score, points all over the place and still no heal. My mage is so much more effective than Morrigan.

 

I've played three mages set up and though it was more or less smooth, I found two melee, two mage set up better. Part of the reason is I probably set up all three mages in the same way I would set up for two melee, two mage set up. When you use a different set up, you need to develop different talents, etc, and I didn't do that so I thought two mage, two melee was better. Point being that when you try a different main, you probably need a different set up and strategies. I think part of your 2H main problem is that you are so used to play as a dex rogue and probably didn't do much to adjust the set up for a 2H main. My set up doesn't allow for enemy archers to live long. The enemies are often sleeping, being stunned or paralysed. So that's why I never noticed the problems your 2H main encountered.

 

Still I see why you prefer a dex rogue and I'm a huge fan of dex rogues and their awesome battle prowess. I get mad when people think rogues are only ever good for lockpicking and cannot survive on nightmare difficulty.

 

You can't afford Mana Clash because you invested in Haste. Both spell lines are lackluster, and both have their big payoff in their their 4th level spell. When my DW Rogue got to this fight, I had no haste (Rogues don't need it: Momentum), but I did have mana clash and the mages are actually close enough together to hit the both with one spell.  But without MC, but with two mages, two crushing prisons + whatever would do the trick. But only one mage, without MC, it's tougher.

 

For overwhelm. Yes if I was soloing and let myself be overwhelmed it would be an issue. With a party it is not. Also at the same point in the game, My lightly armored Rogue has 20 armor, my Massively armored 2H has 30 and my Rogue is usually at full health because he isn't being hit, but the 2H is always getting hit, so would potentially have significantly less health than the rogue. The only grabs/overwhelm things of real concern are Dragons. My 2H main ended up chewed to death fighting both Flemeth and the Sacred Ashes High dragon.  Dragon can (and did) resist a force field (attempt to make it let go). Funny thing. Leli killed both those Dragons. Flemeth with Arrows.  The high Dragon almost accidentally after it pounced and she pulled out her daggers, so she got to ride the dragon.

 

As for Morrigans lackluster setup. I use respec mod liberally these days. I had enough of wimpy Leli, crappy spell selection Morrigan. My Leli is now DW Assasin/Duelist death machine, and my mages have exactly the spells I want to try.  Ohgren is kind of awesome as  a DW-Bezerker.

 

As down as I am on 2H, I am not sure how Zev is holding equal party damage to your 2H main. On equal terms it is no contest. I swapped in Zev(DW) and Sten(2h) temporarily, since they both had 0 damage contribution. Both on autopilot, Zev was out damaging Sten almost 2:1. DPS is no contest in favor of DW.

 

But in my party I seem to be holding at 39% (2H main) 20% Leli, and 17% Alistair (Sword and Dagger).  Three factors contribute to staying ahead:

1: My ~8 level advantage in attributes (Fade bonuses, Level ahead, better gear), means I do a lot more damage than non-main would.

2: I always set up a good 2hSweep. This is probably the only 2H move that can out-dps a DW Rogue on auto-attack.

3: I am always in the party, and I am first into the fight.

[SherryGold]

I think I've already explained how I can have Zevran nearly equal my main 2H. But to answer you, Zev is always one level up or equal to my main until my main starts to invest heavily on ally chest. Money is no object for me as I take advantage of selling potent lyrium potions and however dismal it feels that Morrigan comes with no tactic skill, I will raise her herbalism skill asap. I can get him rose thorn and duncan's dagger pretty early. Edge, he can equip straight away if my main isn't a rogue. By level 10 his approval rating is 100. +6 dex bonus easily achieved. I send Zevran in to kill the mages before the battle begins. I give him bombs and poisons on ample supply. My main wants a strong melee partner and Zevran is exactly what he is looking for. Zevran gets all the best equipment a rogue can wish for as soon as possible, which is probably a lot earlier than in other people's set up. Also I use advanced tactic mod with traitors on.

 

I haven't tried Flemith or High dragon fight without petrify and paralize, plus great warmth balms. Never had a problem with my 2H grabbed or chewed. Maybe double haste helps too?

 

BTW, you could have Morrigan cast forcefield on your warden. I usually tell her to forcefield anyone under 30% health.

[Snowdog65]

The amount of time you spend on Micro for your rogue, gold for the best gear, skill books etc...

 

I think your really want to be a rogue.

[capn233]

Unless you give mana clash to both mages, not sure how you can take out even a white mage with just one spell. You would need at least mana clash or crushing prison + curse of mortality in quick succession on nightmare difficulty setting. Mana clash is awesome, but it only applies to mages and I can't afford to give it to either mage by level 14.

 

Would just use paralysis explosion or fireball here probably if one mage w/o MC.

 

Spell immune (or nearly) warrior is the most amusing character to use in this fight though.  Get to take advantage of the fact that Kolgrim and lackeys don't have much if any spell resist and the two melees are basic units (ie can be shattered).

[Snowdog65]

 

2H takes time to become a proper damage dealer and double haste somewhat remedy the problem of slow attack,

 

 

Something just occurred to me. With double haste, outside of 2hSweep (on groups), none of your attack talents improve you DPS.

 

So do you bother using talents, or do you just auto-attack?

 

I have a save with one of the Brecilian forest Ogres. I just tested. I kill him quicker with auto attack than talents. Often scraping by with one less hit because flame weapons works on auto-attack.

 

It really looks like talent spamming is just for entertainment if you have double haste.

[Analander]

People call Rogues Squishy, but it is really 2H's that are squishy.

 

Neither one is squishy if built and geared right, and if the player uses proper tactics.

In DAO, there are 4 ways to mitigate damage:

 

1 – A high defense score

2 – Displacement

3 – Armor

4 – Crowd control

 

Of these, only number 1 is usually not available to a 2H warrior (and depending on your gear choice, it can be). You can specialize in just one of those things, like a dex rogue having sky high defense scores, or you can have a mix of those. And that’s what 2H warrior have going on for them: high armor, typical for warriors, strong crowd control that is not available to the other warrior types, and displacement. In Origins, it’s possible to stack up to 65% dodge: evon the great’s mail (10%) or battledress of the provocateur (15%), cailan’s greaves (20%), the spellward (10%), cinch of skill maneuvering (10%), first enchanter’s cowl (10%). Some of those items are available from the beginning. That’s more than enough to give you pretty solid defense. You won’t become unhittable like pure dex rogues, but you should have no problems staying alive, especially if you have armor, crow control and a few potions or a mage with healing spells. In Awakening, either rogue or warrior can stack 100% dodge easily.

 

In one of your earlier posts you said that you prefer dex rogues over the “overrated” cunning rogues. I understand that because I share a similar feeling. I like to be in the front lines of the battle, I like to backstab but I don’t want to rely solely on that. However, after a few playthroughs with different builds, I started to question how useful dexterity really is.

 

Yeah, pumping dexterity and becoming unhittable feels very good, but it’s more a luxury than a necessity. Displacement just makes a high defense score useless. Also, there are other ways to significantly increase defense without having to spend points in dexterity: gear (felon’s coat, bard dancing shoes, corruption), spells (glyph of warding, heroic defense) and abilities like rally (which can stack). Put all those things together, and even a 2H warrior can have a very respectable defense score without spending a single point in dexterity.

 

Also, dexterity has diminishing returns, contrary to cunning and strength. Dex is more useful for rogues because cunning doesn’t increase your attack rate, but strength really is the gold stat for warriors. Even for a rogue, I believe that maybe 40-45 would be the sweet spot for dex.

 

I’ve played this game an unhealthy amount of times, with all sorts of builds, and you shouldn’t have many problems staying alive with a 2H warrior after level 10-12, and you should be a total beast after level 15 or so.

 

2H warriors can’t compete with DW for DPS, but if your 2H warrior at level 14 is getting “hit at will” and “close SnS for the worst DPS”, then you’re just doing something wrong.

 

Let’s just say that, of all possible characters, 2H is the one that gives me least trouble when soloing Gaxkang. 

[Snowdog65]

What kind of dodge can you achieve at mid levels (14-15)? And is that worth trading Massive armor for?

 

IMO you aren't likely going to achieve dodge levels that make either armor or defense "useless", until after Origins.

 

I am not sure how you think Strength is better than dex for a Rogue. Unless you are planning to be a big weapon DW rogue.

 

I would argue DPS is higher with daggers.  I Have done both Strength big weapon Rogues and Dex Dagger Rogues. The latter is more effective.

 

With Daggers, Dex = Attack/Damage/Defense

With Daggers, Str = Attack/Damage

 

Why would a Dagger  Rogue ever switch to Str?

 

Having a Defense below 60 means getting hit at will.

 

SnS is a lot closer in DPS to 2H than most think.

 

High Dex/Defense is also not dependent on having some perfect set of gear assembled. A high dex rogue could kick ass wearing a bed sheet and wielding a butter knife.

 

FWIW I just had a another surprise ass kicking.  Piotin in the Proving actually killed my 2H character in the Proving. The team cleaned up after, but he was joke who couldn't touch my Rogue.

[Elhanan]

What kind of dodge can you achieve at mid levels (14-15)? And is that worth trading Massive armor for?
 
IMO you aren't likely going to achieve dodge levels that make either armor or defense useless, until after Origins.
 
I am not sure how you think Strength is better than dex for a Rogue. Unless you are planning to be a big weapon DW rogue.
 
I would argue DPS is higher with daggers.  I Have done both Strength big weapon Rogues and Dex Dagger Rogues. The latter is more effective.
 
With Daggers, Dex = Attack/Damage/Defense
With Daggers, Str = Attack/Damage
 
Why would a Dagger  Rogue ever switch to Str?
 
Having a Defense below 60 means getting hit at will.
 
SnS is a lot closer in DPS to 2H than most think.

I recommend 38 STR for Rogues, and use of Heavy armors and Dodge items. There is a wide range of such gear. But one may also use massive armor on any slot besides the chest piece and still receive the Master Archer perk, if they have the STR to wear it (ie; 42 in DAO for the best tier, I believe).

Then my goals are 22 or 30 CUN, 20 WILL, base MGC, a few pts into CON, and the rest in DEX because I prefer Archery and DW hybrids. And I agree that daggers are good for Rogues.

[Analander]

What kind of dodge can you achieve at mid levels (14-15)? And is that worth trading Massive armor for?

 

IMO you aren't likely going to achieve dodge levels that make either armor or defense "useless", until after Origins.

 

Battledress of the provocateur, cinch of skillful maneuvering, the spellward and cailan's greaves. 55% dodge.

 

By that time, you probably already completed 3 out of the 5 main quests and can buy evon's (if you looted absolutely everything and didn't waste gold on useless stuff). So you could have 50% dodge and use the best armor in the game, better than any massive.

 

Personally, I wouldn't even do that. I would generally skip cailan's greaves and combine evon's with the superior dragonscale armor for the fatigue reduction. From mid to late game I'd have 30% dodge, evon's, lifegiver, all the 2h CC abilities and, ocasionally, a healing spell or potion. That was enough. Of course, I could still die or have some difficulty in a few of the tougher battles, but my character was far from squishy. Actually, when I play 2H I'm usually the main tank from mid game on. 

 

I am not sure how you think Strength is better than dex for a Rogue. Unless you are planning to be a big weapon DW rogue.

 

I would argue DPS is higher with daggers.  I Have done both Strength big weapon Rogues and Dex Dagger Rogues. The latter is more effective.

 

With Daggers, Dex = Attack/Damage/Defense

With Daggers, Str = Attack/Damage

 

Why would a Dagger  Rogue ever switch to Str?

 

Well, I confess that I was thinking more about warriors when I talked about strength, but I don't see any problem going strength with rogue. One of the few builds I've never done before, but high armor rating and a few dodge items, plus combat stealth (and optionally evasion), should take good care of any survivability issues. I agree that daggers have better DPS, but cun has the advantage over dex with daggers.

 

As I said before, I can see the appeal of the dex rogue. But you sound like sky high dex is the only way of making your warden "not squishy", but IMO this is far from the truth. There are several possible combinantions among stats, gear, abilities and strategies. Personally, I don't like either min-max approach for rogue, be it pure cun or pure dex. One is a glass cannon who can't hit anything if not backstabbing, the other invests too much in a stat with ever decreasing returns. My solution, about 1/3 dex and 2/3 cun. With 40-45 dex, you increase your attack and defense scores over a good threshold. Gear and abilities will also help. The rest of the points go for cun, so you can reap the benefits from armor penetration, song of courage, exploit weakness and tainted blade.

 

Oh, and btw, felon's coat has a 13 armor rating (in addition to raising your defense score by 15 points). That's equivalent to the base armor of a tier 6 heavy chestpiece armor. Once my rogues had picked felon's coat, any squishiness would disappear, even with only a moderate investment in dex. If I decided to equip my rogue with lifegiver on top of that, he could even tank.  

 

 

High Dex/Defense is also not dependent on having some perfect set of gear assembled. A high dex rogue could kick ass wearing a bed sheet and wielding a butter knife.

 

Don't disagree, but this point is rather moot IMO. Even without resorting to exploits like the potent lyrium potion or selling expensive dlc items, you will find more than enough gold to buy all of the best gear available in the game. So, there is no trade-off e no logical reason for why wouldn't you give the best possible gear for your warden. OTOH, there is a trade-off when assigning attribute points. When you have attack and defense scores above a certain threshold, the marginal returns of dex begin to decline very rapidly.

[SherryGold]

Dex rogue can kick ass, but I seem to be drawn more to strength rogue these days. Warden rogue only ever needs to invest 2 point in cunning to get master stealth and apart from one hair raising moment where he got grabbed by an orge and repeatedly hit (pretty sure his Cailan armor set and life giver ring saved him), my strength rogue was brilliant. And even that could have been avoided. I got reckless and charged in to kill an emissary standing near the orge and surrounded by a horde of darkspawns, away from the team. Dex rogue or not, I would never send Zevran to do that. So, what made me think I would be able to get away with it while the rest team was far behind, I've no idea.

Life was so much easier at the early stage of the game. He was built like a DW warrior (going strength to wear DLC armor, then dex to get momentum, and then strength again to wear a decent armor, etc.) At level 25 He knocked down an elite orge with his punisher (not even sword and sword - he had Veshialle and Edge equipped). I've used Zev as a dex rogue with dagger/dagger in that round (until we completed the Dalish quest) and turned him into a strength rogue later on (at level 22 or so when I judged his strength was high enough to take him off dagger and give him Starfang worthwhile despite the slower attack speed). This was the first round where Oghrain came out with 0% party contribution after the anvil of the void (usually he gets 1% damage contribution), two strength rogues killing everything, using talents and backstabs in turn. Mob clearing slightly slower compared with two dex rogues (or perhaps it was just my impression because the animation looks slower), but it was so much more fun seeing them doing big damages.

[Snowdog65]

I have never seen this Cinch of Skillful Maneuvering. Looking it up I see references to it in Witch Hunt, which I never played (heard it wasn't that good).

30% Dodge doesn't make high defense "useless".  It's just a 30% reduction in hits.  High defense is much better.

 

Besides that, you argue that high attack/defense reach a point where they don't matter anymore. Fine but that point is about 160 when you are un-hittalble, and your attacks never miss.  You won't get to both without going pure dex.

 

So you suggest going cunning for a boost to damage. Do you really need more damage for a rogue, which already has highest DPS in the game running Dex?

 

At Dex Rogue is simple, easy ass kicking, and already outdistances any warrior in the game, and we should really worry about trying to tradeoff attack and defense to increase Damage a bit?

 

If a Dex Rogue needs more damage. Warriors are just doomed.

[Snowdog65]

Dex rogue can kick ass, but I seem to be drawn more to strength rogue these days. ... but it was so much more fun seeing them doing big damages.

 

Isn't that exactly what I surmised you were doing, while lauding your 2H?

 

Been there, done that on the Str Rogue. It's what I took into Awakenings and got halfway in before I realized that that Warden Commander Armor had permanently grafted to my character. 

 

Generally you go Str rogue for two reason. Sword Damage and/or Massive armor.

 

But really: Dagger/Dagger does better DPS.

 

And IMO, Massive Armor is overrated. It may be necessary to help you survive if you have a terrible defense, but it's a distant second choice to high defense.

 

High defense is much better except in the case of the special (AKA cheese) attacks that can't miss(overwhelm/grab).

 

So all the massive armor does is help you last longer on a Grab/Overwhelm.  Unless you solo these are annoying, not deadly (High Dragon exception), and they last just as long and are just as annoying in Massive armor.

 

Massive Armor screws up Archery. I know you don't like Archery, but it is almost a necessity in some boss fights and it can be very effective if you set up all your characters for reasonable (light armor) archery, and concentrate team archer fire on enemies. You can take a lot of them down before they even get to you that way. 

 

You can have effective team range power on Archery, with negligible investment in Archery Tree, but your fire rate is painful in massive armor.  Even if you go Heavy, you need Master archer to fix it (4 points). Stick with light, and you can have decent fire rate/damage, spending no points at all on archery.

 

Like many things in the game, you can do an effective Str Rogue. You can be an effective Dex SnS or anything you can think of.

 

If I was running two rogues, I might have to make one Strength, just because of the lack of good daggers. There are lots of Tier 7 Str Weapons with 3 rune slots.  But Maybe 2 Tier 7 Daggers with 3 runes(Rose/Duncans)?

 

Str Rogue is very doable, and I had fun with Str Rogue, but Dex Rogue remains my first choice.

[capn233]

So you suggest going cunning for a boost to damage. Do you really need more damage for a rogue, which already has highest DPS in the game running Dex?

 

Pure dex DW rogue doesn't have the highest dps in the game.  It is behind cunning rogue, and both are actually behind a DW Warrior if you don't mind exploiting how DS calculates its attack timing.

 

What Analander is really saying is that he doesn't go pure dex or pure cunning.  It doesn't matter a great deal, as long as nearly all your points are into dex or cunning the rogue will work.

[SherryGold]

The only boss fight that requires archery is a arch demon. Never use archery in Flemith or High dragon these days. I will not have killing blow animation denied. Even with the arch demon, you can just change into the light armor for the second phase and so it's not a problem. If you don't change, the second phase takes a little longer and that's all. But yes, I do see your point that high dex can make heavy armor mostly redundant. I remember Zevran in the same predicament, not intentionally of course. I lost him for a short while and his priority was set to killing a mage. So, of course, he went after the emissary. I took him over, killed the emissary and escaped without getting grabbed by the orge. Another thing that is in favor of dex rogue is you never worry about stamina, especially if you are using double haste and therefore no need for keeping momentum going.

I know what a dex rogue can do, how fast dagger-dagger attack can be. Played as one often enough, taking over Zevran a lot of time. But I also know how pathetic I felt playing as a city rogue at the early stage of the game, and I don't want to go through that every time I play the game. Plus as long as you have a great time with no injury, what does it matter? It worked pretty well for me either way. So why shouldn't I enjoy seeing some big damage?

[Elhanan]

Recommend Archery for both games, but it is especially good in DAA.

[Snowdog65]

Pure dex DW rogue doesn't have the highest dps in the game.  It is behind cunning rogue, and both are actually behind a DW Warrior if you don't mind exploiting how DS calculates its attack timing.

 

What Analander is really saying is that he doesn't go pure dex or pure cunning.  It doesn't matter a great deal, as long as nearly all your points are into dex or cunning the rogue will work.

 

Why would DS work differently on a Warrior?

 

I would argue the huge increase in criticals would put a Rogue ahead.

[Snowdog65]

Recommend Archery for both games, but it is especially good in DAA.

 

Yeah, I respec'ed as an Archer in AA. It was crazy OP, but I guess most things are in DAA.

 

Though I wonder how having massive Armor bonded to my character(bug) affected things, maybe I was ok since I was wearing light armor on top... Bioware makes such buggy games...

[Analander]

1) I have never seen this Cinch of Skillful Maneuvering. Looking it up I see references to it in Witch Hunt, which I never played (heard it wasn't that good).

30% Dodge doesn't make high defense "useless".  It's just a 30% reduction in hits.  High defense is much better.

 

2) Besides that, you argue that high attack/defense reach a point where they don't matter anymore. Fine but that point is about 160 when you are un-hittalble, and your attacks never miss.  You won't get to both without going pure dex.

 

3) So you suggest going cunning for a boost to damage. Do you really need more damage for a rogue, which already has highest DPS in the game running Dex?

 

4) At Dex Rogue is simple, easy ass kicking, and already outdistances any warrior in the game, and we should really worry about trying to tradeoff attack and defense to increase Damage a bit?

 

If a Dex Rogue needs more damage. Warriors are just doomed.

 

1) Not only 30% dodge, but combining it with armor and especially CC. A templar and champion 2H warrior has at his disposal 4 AoE knockdowns (2H Sweep, War Cry, Holy Smite and Blood Fury), plus a single target knockdown (Pommel Strike) and the possibility to stun at every critical hit (and guaranteed stun with Mighty Blow and Critical Strike). Tell me, why should I care about defense when all my enemies are with their butts on the floor (or otherwise disabled) for most of the fight? That's why I prefer the talent spammer 2hH warrior to the hasted counterpart. Even if the hasted has better DPS, IMO the great strength of 2H is controlling the battlefield while dealing damage.

 

Now, if you want to play a 2H warrior the same way you would play a dex DW rogue, just autoattacking, not caring much about tactics and ignoring the strength of the class, no wonder you may run into trouble.

 

2) I remember readind on these boards that the unhittable threshold was 140 defense on Origins and 160 on Awakening, but I don't how accurate those figures are. Based on my experience, I would say that 120 defense (already counting gear and abilities) is enough for a rogue. You will get hit on ocasion, but the excellent protection provided by felon's coat will be enough. IMO, after you hit 120 defense you're better off raising cunning.

 

3) It's not about what you need, it's about optimization. Pure dex is viable, pure cun is viable (if you have a very specific team setup) and mixing is viable. What I'm discussing here is how to get the most benefits for your attribute points. As I said before, I'm of the opinion that dex is not of much worth, after you raised your attack/defense scores to a certain level. And you can even do very well without any dex whatsoever if you use well the other resources the game gives you to mitigate damage.

 

4) It's not a "little bit", there are many ways through which cunnig factors into damage. And, even if it was only a little bit, more damage is always useful, while more defense stops being useful after a certain level. And I'm not saying that dex rogues need more damage, I'm just saying that I don't consider that stat distribution optimal.

 

As I said before, I can see the appeal of a dex rogue, even if this isn't my choice for a build. But you speak as if dex were the only way of making a warden "not squishy". That is not the case if you know how to use all the resources the game gives you. I've soloed Gaxkang with a 2H warrior with no investment in dex. That's not squishy. 

[Snowdog65]

1: All the more reason to be hasted for the 2h DPS, you can save stamina for your CC, and not rely on Sunder/Sunder/MB spamming for DPS. Plus it helps speed up the nauseatingly slow animation.

 

2: You also get hit by debuffs that make you easier to hit, so a little more leeway is nice.

 

4: Depends, if you are talking about AP, telekinetic weapons with DW daggers pretty much puts above any armor in the game.  Then what SoC? That is mostly just a small amount.

 

I am pretty sure at this point people have soloed the whole game with every class combo. Anything is viable if you work hard enough at it.

 

Dex Rogue is effortless. It's high attack, defense, and DPS all from one stat. It isn't based on assembling some awesome set of gear (or switching gear for each encounter). On top of that Rogues have the best utility, scouting, disabling traps/ambushes/mages.

[capn233]

The only boss fight that requires archery is a arch demon.

 

Some of them are easier ranged than melee though.  Uldred for instance won't even use Massive Attack against you if you use a bow.  Throw on Defensive Fire, stand right next to him, and just let him paw at you the whole time.  He will rarely hit you, especially if you slap on an Incense of Awareness (my solo archer just did this fight, had 142 defense w/ DF and Incense up and was unhittable).  Cheesy and funny, but not the fastest ever.

 

Why would DS work differently on a Warrior?

 

I would argue the huge increase in criticals would put a Rogue ahead.

 

Dual Striking doesn't crit or backstab.  You can crit in the mode if you use an activated talent, but auto attacks will not.

 

Warrior passives are better for dual striking since warrior doesn't really have much that buffs crits, and warrior can't backstab anyway.  You can also make the argument that dw warrior attribute investment is slightly more efficient than what you would get on a rogue (except maybe strength / dex split rogue, but your cunning bonuses aren't going to do much in that case).

 

DS Warrior will do more frontal DPS than cunning rogue does backstab dps if you calculate it out.  This is w/ Rose's Thorn main hand, Starfang or Veshialle offhand on the warrior btw.

[capn233]

2) I remember readind on these boards that the unhittable threshold was 140 defense on Origins and 160 on Awakening,

 

The defense to be unhittable depends on where you are in the game.  Late game you need more than 140 though.  It is basically 160 in Origins though if you don't want to be hit by bosses (ignoring high tier enemies who will just use Perfect Striking).  I agree with the general idea that this much defense is not needed for the most part.  150 will be "nearly unhittable" late game, and for really annoying guys (Genlock Assassin or whatever his name is) just hit Incense of Awareness.