A lot of this is preference based, and I get really annoyed by DS animation wonkiness.
It looks like a almost almost half the swings are purposeful wiffs (for balance). If it was true double striking it would be quite OP.
IIRC someone did a huge analysis of this way back and with DS he was only getting about 10% more damage over the long haul, due to the pause in DPS from the Wiff animation.
^It is one of three DS hits that does nothing. Has 3 animations, one of which never rolls for an attack.
The trick is that the attack speed under DS is based on mainhand only, so when you run dagger mainhand, fullsize offhand it is the same as if it were dagger-dagger. But fullsize has better attribute modifier and more base damage.
IIRC 10% comes from the old warrior build assessment thread, and that was comparing two fullsize with and without DS.
I have Leli (DW Rogue-Dex) and Alistair (DW Warrior-Berzerker-Str) in my party and Leli has been consistently out-damaging Alistair with them on autopilot.
And autopilot should favor the Berserker over the rogue.
1: All the more reason to be hasted for the 2h DPS, you can save stamina for your CC, and not rely on Sunder/Sunder/MB spamming for DPS. Plus it helps speed up the nauseatingly slow animation.
4: Depends, if you are talking about AP, telekinetic weapons with DW daggers pretty much puts above any armor in the game. Then what SoC? That is mostly just a small amount.
You have a point about stamina. Usually, a spammer 2H shouldn't have too much problems with stamina if you have deathblow, an armor set with fatigue reduction and a few itens that boost your stamina and stamina regeneration. But you still can run out in longer fights or if you have too many sustains activated. For some reason I could never get my head around playing hasted 2H. Maybe I should try again sometime.
Besides AP and SoC, cun pumps Exploit Weakness and Tainted Blade. For instance, with 60 cun you get 4.5 damage from SoC, 8.65 from Exploit Weakness (on backstabs only) and 15 damage from Tainted Blade. That is, 19.5 more damage on normal attacks and 28.15 more damage when backstabbing. I consider that a very good boost to damage.
I agree that a dex build takes less effort, but I find cun too good for rogues to pass on it, cun has great synergy with a rogue's abilities, it not only adds damage but improves utility, saving skill and talent points.
The defense to be unhittable depends on where you are in the game. Late game you need more than 140 though. It is basically 160 in Origins though if you don't want to be hit by bosses (ignoring high tier enemies who will just use Perfect Striking). I agree with the general idea that this much defense is not needed for the most part. 150 will be "nearly unhittable" late game, and for really annoying guys (Genlock Assassin or whatever his name is) just hit Incense of Awareness.
Thanks for the input.
I think which build you choose depends a lot on your play style, your personal pet peeve and which companion you want in your team, etc. I always thought rogues needed a tank before I saw a post about two dex rogues and two mages set up. I was a little skeptical. I heard a lot about haste but you need three practically useless talents (well, OK, not completely useless, but still) to get a talent that comes with attack penalty. Why on earth would anyone want that? After trying it out, I was in awe. Did the battle even begin? A lot of battles finished before Wynne's mass paralysis kicked in. It worked beautifully but I'm not sure it would have worked with two cunning rogues without a tank, even though my rogue always start with a ranger (I want to be able to breathe a little earlier, thank you) and the bear can kind of occupy the enemy's attention a little while. To be perfectly honest, as much as I love my 2H build, double haste set up seems work better with two dex rogues, smoother and quicker. Now, my favorite companion is Zevran and after that Morrigan, and any set up that makes me to keep them in the team all the time is welcome, and if that set up kicks ass, all the better. And to be honest, as much as I love damage, the real reason I started to like a strength rogue isn't really about damage. It's the animation. Using talents seems to produce more pleasing animation than just backstabbing. When the battle finishes so quickly and nearly effortlessly, it doesn't really matter who is doing what damage and how much. Doing more damage becomes luxury in this scenario.
I am aware that Zev's party damage contribution could have improved, had I given him more cunning than 22 minimum for master stealth and 50XP chest and traps with three lockpicking skill points, coming from three talents tomes you can get before the final battle begins - he is an assassin no matter what spec I choose for the next specialization. And if I choose a bard, it would give him more damage boost. But his attack score and defence will suffer and tainted blade is irrelevant for him. Plus I've seen Morrigan's telechinic spell adds 24 to base armor penetration at the end game (I'm not even sure how to account for that. The damage is supposed to be capped at 10, and if DW gets double bonus, it should be 20 at maximum). Which enemy wears armor rating over 30? Hardly any. I've gone for the balanced approach for Zev in the past, but I decided that I prefer going all dex with him than the balanced approach (he seems more invincible that way). And if he fails to open some chests, well I hardly care about loots after I get all the para runes and ignore most loots let alone chests towards the end.
For a rogue warden, well yes, his damage would improve even more if he went cun route, but I personally dislike tainted blade and I will not use it. Being a ranger and opting for duelist, SoC and exploit weakness is irrelevant for my rogue warden. But I can see how other people would prefer cun rogue or more balanced approach. Cunning rogue could be pretty useful in another set up with a different composition of the team and be very successful. It just isn't for me.
You have a point about stamina. Usually, a spammer 2H shouldn't have too much problems with stamina if you have deathblow, an armor set with fatigue reduction and a few itens that boost your stamina and stamina regeneration. But you still can run out in longer fights or if you have too many sustains activated. For some reason I could never get my head around playing hasted 2H. Maybe I should try again sometime.
Besides AP and SoC, cun pumps Exploit Weakness and Tainted Blade. For instance, with 60 cun you get 4.5 damage from SoC, 8.65 from Exploit Weakness (on backstabs only) and 15 damage from Tainted Blade. That is, 19.5 more damage on normal attacks and 28.15 more damage when backstabbing. I consider that a very good boost to damage.
I agree that a dex build takes less effort, but I find cun too good for rogues to pass on it, cun has great synergy with a rogue's abilities, it not only adds damage but improves utility, saving skill and talent points.
On the item set for Fatigue/Stamina for a 2H. How many different items sets are you going to carry and swap between? I don't really want to have multiple gear setups and need to keep altering them for each condition. People are suggesting Cailan's greaves for Dodge. Well there goes fatique bonuses out the window unless you are wearing the whole set, helmet included. Throw in the one piece of unique must have Warrior gear: Knight Commander Plate, and you are stuck with deep fatigue.
On stamina regen with deathblow. I may have problem with that with two hasted DW always stealing my kills. I am not sure how anyone tolerates the painfully slow 2H'er without at least one haste. Even with one haste I find it kind of brutal. I have stacked some swift salve in longer fights that makes it more tolerable, but double hasted would be better.
IMO Cunning is more of an near end game type move or respec, otherwise you likely start killing your attack bonus quite early. Exactly how early and how much are you going to compromise your attack/defense. I say it is overrated because people act like this is the only way to do a Rogue when in reality it is a balancing act between extra damage and the loss of attack defense. I also don't want to go back to physically getting behind foes like first level for exploit weakness, and the whole injuring myself and bleeding everywhere, to injure the enemy doesn't work for me either.
Maybe you are more comfortable Soloing Gaxkang with your 2H (prev post), because you made your Rogue Squishy with low dex.
I tried Soloing Gaxkang with my Dex Rogue(I still had save right before). Gaxkang could not physically hit me. He hit me with spells, and had free shots, but even when I was just lost in a Horror spell and he was getting lots of free attacks, Gaxkang could not hit me. I think he also debuffs attack making him hard to hit, so I did have some misses. IMO you can never have a too high Attack Score. Would your cunning rogue do as well on offense/defense in this situation?
@Snowdog65 - Comparing two companions is not exactly same as comparing two wardens, is it? Alistair wouldn't have enough investment in STR after investing in DEX, at least not until mid game. One would have to equip both the companions identically, and somehow, if at all possible, make sure that they mirror each other's actions rather than compete for and steal kills. There is also the issue of Berserk turning off in exploration mode, so Alistair might as well be fighting a lot without it on.
They both have the attribute disadvantage. Gear is of course a good point unless you dupe. Whoever has Rose's will win basically. For autopilot squaddies, dagger-dagger on the warrior probably would end up with better contribution, and so str or dex wouldn't matter. Alistair of course won't be Berserker until 14 which is a large chunk of the game.
On the item set for Fatigue/Stamina for a 2H. How many different items sets are you going to carry and swap between? I don't really want to have multiple gear setups and need to keep altering them for each condition. People are suggesting Cailan's greaves for Dodge.
You shouldn't really need max dodge. I would personally only take two sets if solo Templar: KCP and then when it unlocks Evon's or whatever best armor rating you have before that. You can run Wade's for boots / gloves for fatigue bonus but I don't think that is necessarily better than running Diligence gloves / boots for bonus armor. Evon's + Spellward should be "good enough" dodge when armor rating and health regen is accounted for. Team game you might not need magic resist set at all.
Wrt death blow and rogues on the team, you can of course consider turning the tables on Zev and stealing his kills if you let him stab a couple times, then hit the target with MB, Critical Strike, whatever.
Waiting while the DW hit a couple of times? That was a joke right? 
For regular mobs I race to get one hit in before the momentum+hasted DW tandem, destroy them in a blur of death, while I am winding up.
The only reason I have a high party contribution, is I am leading out front, and can charge crowds first, and Sweep them them before the DW'ers get there with their metal storm of whirling death. It really is a blur of death, there is no timing against them, it is swing ASAP and hope it lands before they kill it.
No one has Rose's Thorn. PC gear comes before NPC gear, and Alistair became a Berzerker at level 10 (respec), at which point Leli (DW Duelist) sat out the Mage Circle for Wynne, and fell WAY behind, she then caught up and passed him after she rejoined.
Waiting while the DW hit a couple of times? That was a joke right?
Not entirely. If an enemy is dying to your attack and a rogue poke or two it doesn't matter what the order is, and this can be affected by micro.
If your team is killing everything with no input, you should just let them and go get some coffee. Or consider soloing 
).
Not entirely. If an enemy is dying to your attack and a rogue poke or two it doesn't matter what the order is, and this can be affected by micro.
If your team is killing everything with no input, you should just let them and go get some coffee. Or consider soloing
2H is too squishy for me to solo, plus I would lose haste, which makes 2H, barely acceptable.
This is regular Mobs.
With two DW hasted-momentum Dervishes (Leli and Ali), their attacks are a stream of death on regular mobs, there is no hope in hell of timing, to steal a kill from them; Just pure luck. I could start winding up when a regular mob was 100% and Leli/Ali tag team could still kill it before I hit. That isn't a poke or two,they probably hit 6 times between before I connect.
On tougher creatures, then I might save a MB to kill steal when they are beaten down. Regular Mobs, no chance.
2H is too squishy for me to solo, plus I would lose haste, which makes 2H, barely acceptable.
This is regular Mobs.
With two DW hasted-momentum Dervishes (Leli and Ali), their attacks are a stream of death on regular mobs, there is no hope in hell of timing, to steal a kill from them; Just pure luck. I could start winding up when a regular mob was 100% and Leli/Ali tag team could still kill it before I hit. That isn't a poke or two,they probably hit 6 times between before I connect.
On tougher creatures, then I might save a MB to kill steal when they are beaten down. Regular Mobs, no chance.
Drop the animation speed fix then, that will teach them.
On the item set for Fatigue/Stamina for a 2H. How many different items sets are you going to carry and swap between?
Not as much as you would think, really. My preferred endgame gear for 2H is Evon's with Wade's boots and gauntlets, spellward, cinch of skillful maneuvering, chasind great maul, lifegiver and morrigan's ring (for rpg purposes). With that I get great armor rating, low fatigue, big boost to stamina and 30% dodge (not very high but still useful).
I was mentioning cailan's greaves and other gear to highlight that there are many ways of mitigating damage in this game other than defense, but it's not necessary to use everything at once. With 2H, CC and armor are my primary line of defense, dodge is a bonus. I'd only use cailan's greaves against Gaxkang. And KCP only in a few battles against powerful spellcasters, mainly in the deep roads. I personnaly enjoy finding the best equipment for my warden but, even if you don't, it's really not much trouble carrying an extra piece of armor for a few battles.
Maybe you are more comfortable Soloing Gaxkang with your 2H (prev post), because you made your Rogue Squishy with low dex.
Nope. I've built pure dex rogues before, and soloed Gaxkang with them as well. Dex rogues will not get hit by the Revenant form, but 2Hers can be immune to the spells. His spells are much more dangerous than his physical attacks. Also, 2H will kill him faster due to high burst damage and because a rogue can't backstab him. But yes, dex rogues will perform much better than cun rogues in this particular fight.
DPS is an MMO term that sometimes doesn't translate too well to DAO mechanics. The capacity of sustaining damage over time is not so relevant when you have relatively quick battles. In a short battle, I consider burst damage more important than DPS.
I concede that 2Hers are not the most efficient when facing mobs of enemies, but they do shine against single powerful enemies. They will generally perform better than rogues (dex or cun) against elites or bosses, who either cannot be flanked or can disable your warden with stuns or knockdowns, or both.
Drop the animation speed fix then, that will teach them.
You mean reintroduce the Momentum-Haste bug? That would only affect Leli. Alistair can turn on PS to go faster...
#1: I personnaly enjoy finding the best equipment for my warden but, even if you don't, it's really not much trouble carrying an extra piece of armor for a few battles.
#2: Nope. I've built pure dex rogues before, and soloed Gaxkang with them as well. Dex rogues will not get hit by the Revenant form, but 2Hers can be immune to the spells. His spells are much more dangerous than his physical attacks. Also, 2H will kill him faster due to high burst damage and because a rogue can't backstab him. But yes, dex rogues will perform much better than cun rogues in this particular fight.
#3: DPS is an MMO term that sometimes doesn't translate too well to DAO mechanics. The capacity of sustaining damage over time is not so relevant when you have relatively quick battles. In a short battle, I consider burst damage more important than DPS.
I concede that 2Hers are not the most efficient when facing mobs of enemies, but they do shine against single powerful enemies. They will generally perform better than rogues (dex or cun) against elites or bosses, who either cannot be flanked or can disable your warden with stuns or knockdowns, or both.
#1. I like having the best gear, but I don't believe in carrying gear specific to different battles. It seems a little cheesy. "Caddy, we are fighting Gaxkang behind this door, break out my KCP and Dodge boots". I'll just wear KCP full time and +20 Dodge greaves full time and live with the more limited talent spam.
#2. I fought Gaxkang with my 2H with 30 dodge and KCP. He took way more damage than my rogue did. Rogue needed one health potion before finishing him off, 2h Warrior needed 2, 2H still got hit lots and most of Gaxkangs spells on the Rogue were non-damage variety. The real kick ass choice here would have been a DW-Dex warrior, untouchable by neither magic, nor physical attacks.
#3. I don't think spike damage is any more than auto-attack DPS of a hasted/runed/fire weapon rogue, and it can't really be spiked that quickly because the sunder animates (biggest spike) are so long. That and tougher opponents will outlast the "spike" anyway.
You mean reintroduce the Momentum-Haste bug? That would only affect Leli. Alistair can turn on PS to go faster...
Isn't there a mod that allows you to change your class? Why not turn Alistair into a rogue and Lel into a mage? Problem solved. 
Maybe I should turn Zevran into a mage and see how four mage set up turns out.
No one has Rose's Thorn. PC gear comes before NPC gear, and Alistair became a Berzerker at level 10 (respec), at which point Leli (DW Duelist) sat out the Mage Circle for Wynne, and fell WAY behind, she then caught up and passed him after she rejoined.
If Alistair is using dual daggers, this is not quite possible. Let me do the math for you.
Normal hit dmg = Weapon Base dmg + Attribute Based dmg + Character dmg Bonus + Others (N/A here)
At lvl 10, Normal hit dmg = 8 + (15 * 0.85 * 0.375) + Character dmg Bonus + ..... //assuming Dragonbone dagger, 50 total contributing attributes = 12.781 + C Normal hit dmg [Leliana] = 12.781 + (0.2*10 + 1) //Level up dmg bonus, Duelist passive = 15.781 Normal hit dmg [Alistair] = 12.781 + (0.4*10 + 8 + 1) //Level up dmg bonus, Berserk, Bravery passive = 25.781
Assuming maxed out attack speed,
DPS [Leliana] = 31.562 DPS [Alistair] = 51.562
If Leliana always scores critical hits,
DPS [Leliana] = [1.5*12.781 + (0.2*10 + 1)]/0.5 //Assuming no +crit/backstab dmg item(s) = 22.172/0.5 = 44.344
As you can see, Alistair should be ahead, even if Leliana were somehow autocritical. Leliana would have an edge in attack with Dueling. Alistair in turn can use Precise Striking. DPS penalty for doing so would be
Retour en haut
DPS [Alistair_PS] = 25.781/0.6
= 42.968
which is still larger than Leliana's normal hit damage.
Regarding Revenants' immunity to backstabbing, it is a misconception - they can be backstabbed when paralyzed.
Maybe I should turn Zevran into a mage and see how four mage set up turns out.
Heh, that would be epic, literally, given how overpowered mages are.
If Alistair is using dual daggers, this is not quite possible. Let me do the math for you.
If you want theorycraft some more:
Alistair is wielding swords. I have lots of good swords going unused and not a lot of good daggers, and it seemed more fitting for Leli to go Dagger and Alistair Swords.
If you want theorycraft some more:
Alistair is wielding swords. I have lots of good swords going unused and not a lot of good daggers, and it seemed more fitting for Leli to go Dagger and Alistair Swords.
I have already analysed that possibility in one of my earlier posts, haven't I? But sure, why the hell not?
At lvl 10, Alistair would have 23 STR, and Leliana would have 56 STR+DEX.
Normal hit dmg [Leliana] = 8 + (18 * 0.85 * 0.375) + (0.2*10 + 1) = 16.738 Normal hit dmg [Alistair] = 11.375 + (13 * 0.375) + (0.4*10 + 8 + 1) //Assuming Veridium longsword = 29.25
At max attack speeds,
DPS [Leliana_N] = 16.738/0.5 = 33.476 DPS [Alistair_N] = 29.25/0.7 = 41. 78
With Flaming Weapons,
DPS [Leliana_N,FW] = (16.738 + 9.6)/0.5 //Assuming Mage with 36 Spellpower = 52.676 DPS [Alistair_N,FW] = (29.25 + 9.6)/0.7 = 55.5
Leliana's Armor Penetration advantage = 5.1
Leliana's Attack Rating advantage = 2 [Duelling - warrior advantage]
As you can see, the difference isn't significant even at lvl 10; don't see any feasible way for Leliana to catch up after falling way behind. Do mind though that I'm not saying this should match your experience, as you might have equipped both of them in a way that precludes fair comparison.
PS: Things that we conveniently choose to forget that would be in Alistair's favor:
Well, legally, Ali cannot be a DW (or he will be disadvantaged as a DW) and I won't be able to get Zev when the warden has just reached level 7 or 8, depending on which origin I'm playing. It's quite interesting to think about how mods change our games permanently, and the discussions of tactics, strategies, etc. will not be complete without declaring all the mods you are using. I can only make Zevran as powerful as he can because I get him early and ensure that his level doesn't fall back, plus my obsession with getting him the best gear, etc. Most people, if they decide to use Zev as the only rogue in the party will not use talent tomes on him. They might also insist on him opening all the chests. A few level up, his lock picking skill would have increased but not his combat skills. They won't be able to use him as their resident mage killer when he is only level 12 or so with the confidence I have in his ability to get the job done. Without rule fix, which I only recently discovered, a melee rogue will not markedly benefit from one haste, save it will free their stamina to use talents such as DW sweep, mark of death, flurry, etc. more frequently, and 2H will benefit most from just one haste, except for a DW warrior warden. Whether you use dlc items and promotional items will also make a huge difference to the game play experience. I will never be able to get the first physical tome and arcane tome on my first camp visit. Then the total number of available arcane tomes is only three. And you only have two physical tomes before the end battle begins. Well unless I have Kamras companion where you can get hold of extra tomes. I won't be able to have more than one spellward. But it raises a question. If you are going to rely on mods anyway, why bother with tactics and strategies? Why not just get the god mod items and feel all powerful from beginning to the end? I guess it boils down to how theses mods enrich or spoil your game experience and that's going to be different from one individual to the next.
The Theory Crafting doesn't seem to hold up to actual play. I finished the deep roads last night.
At the start I swapped in Oghren, but he was essentially respeced to match Alistair, but since this would make the percent contribution meaningless. I noted the actual damage contribution numbers of Og/Leli near the start of the deep roads.
Ohgren was Level 19 to Leli's 18. (Finished at 20/19).
Ohgren was configured 36 dex 50 Str (just about all extra points), dual wielding Merics/Duncans both tier 7 with all 6 rune slots filled .
DW Berzerker/Champion.
Sustains: Momentum/Dual Striking/Berzerk/Rally.
Leli (Duelist/Assasin) running Edge/Duncans (T7), with 5 rune slots filled (Both Oghren and Leli had 2 paralyze runes, Damage runes +16 Ogren, +11 Leli),
Sustains: momentum/dueling
Using haste bugfixes, mage sustaining haste, and flame weapons when I remembered.
Comparable gear and attack bonus.
On char sheet.
Ohgrens damage was ~40/40 ,and ~49/49 with Berzerk.
Leli was ~30/30
After finishing the whole deep roads together:
Oghren added 31464 damage to his contribution.
Leli added 38882 damage to her contribution.
38882/31464 = 24% more damage for Leliana.
On paper it looks like Oghren should easily outdamage Leli, but that isn't how it worked out. Given this was the whole of the deep roads I doubt a repeat would change the overall trend.
Theorycrafting is missing something in the actual gameplay.
Theorycrafting is missing something in the actual gameplay.
Theorycrafting assumed the warrior was dual wielding daggers. It's well known that sword/sword is significantly worse.
