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[Snowdog65]

Theorycrafting assumed the warrior was dual wielding daggers. It's well known that sword/sword is significantly worse.

 

No, Blazomancer did a redo with swords...

[Snowdog65]

Well, legally, Ali cannot be a DW ...

 

... the discussions of tactics, strategies, etc. will not be complete without declaring all the mods you are using.

 

... But it raises a question. If you are going to rely on mods anyway, why bother with tactics and strategies? Why not just get the god mod items and feel all powerful from beginning to the end?

 

IMO the DLC items do more to unbalance the game than a respec mod does. It's also silly the way you they accumulate all the DLC in your new character inventory once unlocked. You are a peasant scrounging for coppers, but you have ton of high end gear, much that you can't even use.

 

A respec mod, lets you try different build combos, without needing to replay the same tired story over again, and again. So on one play-through you can see how a 2h vs DW build would have handled Gaxkang.  And you can try out tons of different spell combinations that would otherwise take you several play troughs to try.  Respec is a time/sanity saver.

 

Maybe skip the mods on the first playthrough so you can experience the NPC  characters, and bugs , as the Devs intended.

 

I resisted bugfixes for a long time as well because sometime they go too far, fixing things the user didn't like, but aren't necessarily bugs, and may lead to being OP.

 

People for instance have "fixed" the slow swing speed of the 2H weapons. But it doesn't look like a bug, then they ended up with attack speed of SnS with much more damage.

 

But this game is so buggy and no fixes are coming from EA, so I would never again play without them.  Haste is so bugged it isn't funny. It works to detriment of archers/mages(aim), and DW momentum characters.  With some trepidation I applied a fix for this. Barring a fix, it probably makes more sense to skip haste altogether.

 

Note that a DW Rogue could achieve full speed even without a fix. Haste+Haste works for DW, Momentum + Swift Salve works. AFAIK, both give full max speed under the bug threshold, and they can do the latter while solo, or in those duels that make you solo for a bit.

 

So finally I used a pack to fix this irritating set of bugs (All the haste/swift aiming, cap bugs). Now I wish I did it sooner.

 

Really we all spend too much time paying attention to the mechanics of this game.

 

It's a beginners mess. Unbalanced, poorly thought out, and buggy as hell.

 

But no, I don't judicious bug fixes and respec mods as equivalent of just going God Mode.

 

I used them to fix the bug infested mess and try more combos of abilities with replaying. Saving time and sanity.

[SherryGold]

Well, respec mod can be abused quite literally. For instance, you will want to raise your strength to certain level even if you go for a dex rogue route in order to equip a decent armor. That you can change your attributes points any time means that you can raise your strength and equip the armor and then respec yourself to change the strength attributes you invested into dex. Similarly, my strength warden absolutely refused to raise his cunning more than by 2 points, counting on Fade bonus. This meant he couldn't unlock the third lockpick skill when he went into the circle tower or Ostagar, meaning he couldn't disarm the traps. Course hilarity ensued thanks to that and I actually quite enjoyed the round, but someone might just invest in cunning to unlock the third skill and after getting the Fade bonus, go back and respec himself. So, the early choices and trade offs you make become redundant. The reason I don't use it is because it feels like I'm telling my companions they are not appreciated as they are so I will have to change them. I dislike Morrigan's shape shifting, but it is an essential part of her, and when I respec her, I'm not respecting that. However, I can see why you use it, and if it enriches your game experience, why not? Similarly god items maybe an essential part of enjoying the game for some people, and they shouldn't be listening to anyone else telling them it is cheating. It's their game, their universe. If the items help them enjoy the game, why not? We shouldn't take a game too seriously.

But I see your points about dlc items and promotional items. Although, thinking about it, shouldn't Cousland have a better armor, dagger, and some golds? Why should he be also as poor as a mouse, I will never know. And for that matter, why our characters are so weak in the beginning? When my mage goes into the Fade, he has three spells available. I mean why would he be supposed to be talented, when all he learned from his childhood were three spells? Cousland is supposed to be a renounced warrior and he can't hit properly at the beginning of the game.

And talking about bugs, I was going through the rule fix mods to see what other fixes I want apart from the speed fix, and wow I was shocked. So many ridiculous bugs. So when I was using mage bane, I was adding mana to the enemy mage? I was giving Loghain more stamina by using concentrated soldiers' bane? Mana drain was adding more mana? Never knew about them. It was quite enlightening. I'm all for rule fix. The bugs are just too much.

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[Snowdog65]

Yes, if someone is respecing to equip armor then respecing back, that is obviously over the line. They must know they are cheating. 

 

But that does NOT mean wanting to try different play styles is. I think you would be nuts to waste your time replaying the game to try a different talent/spell config. In the old days, before respecs are were common, I would restart games after disliking how I built my character, now I consider respec a must have.

 

That the game was left essentially unpatched in this buggy state really shows how EA has ruined Bioware (as predicted).

 

This has a handful of spells and abilities and significant portion of them are bugged, some badly, like all the speed interactions.

 

And yes mage/soldier banes doing the opposite of what they should. Same with mana cleanse adding mana to your enemies.

 

Many broken things have no fix. Telekentic weapons double stacks on DW. A big 2H weapon gets +10 AP, dual daggers get +20 AP each.

 

I am starting to wonder if there is more broken stuff than working stuff?

 

People who did this should be embarrassed, or angry at management that didn't let them fix it.

 

A startling contrast is CD Projekt Red. I have Witcher 1 and Witcher 2. Those guys just keep making their games better and better after release.

 

I am really looking forward to more CDPR games because they still go above and beyond for the customer.

 

EA (Bioware RIP) is dead to me.

[Snowdog65]

 

But I see your points about dlc items and promotional items. Although, thinking about it, shouldn't Cousland have a better armor, dagger, and some golds? Why should he be also as poor as a mouse, I will never know. And for that matter, why our characters are so weak in the beginning? When my mage goes into the Fade, he has three spells available. I mean why would he be supposed to be talented, when all he learned from his childhood were three spells? Cousland is supposed to be a renounced warrior and he can't hit properly at the beginning of the game.

And talking about bugs, I was going through the rule fix mods to see what other fixes I want apart from the speed fix, and wow I was shocked. So many ridiculous bugs. So when I was using mage bane, I was adding mana to the enemy mage? I was giving Loghain more stamina by using concentrated soldiers' bane? Mana drain was adding more mana? Never knew about them. It was quite enlightening. I'm all for rule fix. The bugs are just too much.

.

 

You might have a argument for Noble origins starting with DLC gear, but I was thinking of City Elf, you have no money, you literally trying to scape to together coppers to help a friend. Yet you are walking around with a kings ransom in one of a kind artifacts. Same for the caste-less dwarf and I doubt Dalish have it either.

 

Just another example of how poorly everything was handled in this game. Most of the DLC was just selling items inappropriate to the player.

[Elhanan]

Have well over 2000 hrs into DAO; none in the entire TW series. This is mainly because the high quality of Bioware writing, freedom of Player designed characters, and desired mechanics of the DA series.

Am hoping that DA4 will follow suit, and ME:A still pre-ordered.

[Elhanan]

You might have a argument for Noble origins starting with DLC gear, but I was thinking of City Elf, you have no money, you literally trying to scape to together coppers to help a friend. Yet you are walking around with a kings ransom in one of a kind artifacts. Same for the caste-less dwarf and I doubt Dalish have it either.
 
Just another example of how poorly everything was handled in this game. Most of the DLC was just selling items inappropriate to the player.

Not in the first game, or at least not in mine. I had to unlock those rewards first; knew ahead of time that this was to occur. Surprise like this is not my kind of thing as a rule.

[Snowdog65]

2000 hours of DAO. Yikes. I have more like a tenth of that, and I am reaching my limit. I don't see any value in repeating the same story over and over to that degree. I can hardly bring myself to play DA DLC that I haven't played yet (Golems/Witch Hunt/Darkspawn thing).

 

I have over 1000 hours in NWN, but that is because I was playing a massive amount of excellent third party modules. So I had years of new stories to play through.

 

TW2 was one of the best RPGs I have ever played, but even TW1 was more satisfying than Dragon Age.   I might play TW2 again someday but only after it is sufficiently faded to feel fresh again.

 

The only reason I don't have TW3, is my computer won't handle it. It will be a day one purchase with my next computer upgrade.

[Blazomancer]

And just like that all rogues can learn to sing songs of courage and valor in a couple of days, months may be, good enough to actually motivate people rather than getting rotten tomatoes thrown at. (The female dwarf's songs are the most Grammy-worthy by the way). And the same warden from the same background would somehow possess less aptitude in music if s/he decides to be less rogueish. Butterfly effect much? When you think about it that way, it's all crazy.

[Blazomancer]

@Snowdog 65 - It's possible that I might have made some mistakes in the calculations and in predicting how those numbers will turn out in practice, I just don't know what. I have some ideas regarding the outcome of your experience, but unless I know exactly what equipments you are using, what AI tactics you have setup, and the exact attribute distribution you have for both, I can only speculate.

One of those speculations would be the one I pointed out in post #107 - the issue about using them both simultaneously. Having greater attack speed, Leliana would often steal kills from Alistair/Oghren, who would have uncertain hit rate with Dual Striking. After all, they are not hitting away on a target having an infinite amount of HP. So, in my opinion, using them both separately would be a somewhat better way. As an aside, I didn't use Dual Striking in my calculations, because I didn't think it would be fair if only one character is using something that is available to both.

Another doubt I have is regarding the weapon choice - to me, it seems the benefit of [The Edge - Duncan's Dagger] for a rogue is not equivalent to the benefit of [Duncan's Sword - Maric's Blade] for a warrior. It is a debatable thing, one reason why I used only generic weapons in my calculations. If it has to be this way, I'd much prefer a contest between [The Rose's Thorn - The Edge] and [Starfang - The Veshialle] or [Starfang - The Reaper's Cudgel] if Dual Striking, as these are among the best that both builds have access to.

I would also like to consider again what I mentioned in post #103, regarding the rogue focusing on getting more criticals. Using paralyze runes and keeping her AI controlled especially in a party where there are two warriors (essentially meaning lesser threat) would give her more backstabs, which makes me wonder if she should be considered a straight up duelist at all. A rogue that can backstab consistently would have the edge (and The Edge, huehuehue) for obvious reasons.

Lastly, I'd like to reiterate my feelings regarding comparing two companions instead of two wardens. If you are not stripping the warden of the best stuff and giving them to the concerned companion, neither build will realize their full potential, which can create biases. And this I believe undermines the value of the comparison. For me personally, it is more about pitting the best that a build that can be with the best of another, and checking which one comes on top, with regard to a certain quantity (DPS in this case).

At any rate, these are all speculations which I can't do much with without your input. As it is, I'm at a loss regarding where I went wrong.

[Snowdog65]

That ^ argument moves me about as much as the "it's science fiction, it doesn't have to make sense".

 

You should never just give in to the "it's all just nonsense anyway" argument.

 

All good fiction should strive to create self consistent universes, that enable the suspension of disbelief.

 

We spend to much time on mechanics of this game. More than the designers did. It's really best to ignore the mecahnics.

 

But it is harder to ignore the tacked on DLC inventory. It is stuff you posses in the universe. It isn't a mechanic. It's a broken story flaw. Which in many ways is worse than the broken mechanics in the game.

[Snowdog65]

@Snowdog 65 - It's possible that I might have made some mistakes in the calculations and in predicting how those numbers will turn out in practice, I just don't know what. I have some ideas regarding the outcome of your experience, but unless I know exactly what equipments you are using, what AI tactics you have setup, and the exact attribute distribution you have for both, I can only speculate.

One of those speculations would be the one I pointed out in post #107 - the issue about using them both simultaneously. Having greater attack speed, Leliana would often steal kills from Alistair/Oghren, who would have uncertain hit rate with Dual Striking. After all, they are not hitting away on a target having an infinite amount of HP. So, in my opinion, using them both separately would be a somewhat better way. As an aside, I didn't use Dual Striking in my calculations, because I didn't think it would be fair if only one character is using something that is available to both.

Another doubt I have is regarding the weapon choice - to me, it seems the benefit of [The Edge - Duncan's Dagger] for a rogue is not equivalent to the benefit of [Duncan's Sword - Maric's Blade] for a warrior. It is a debatable thing, one reason why I used only generic weapons in my calculations. If it has to be this way, I'd much prefer a contest between [The Rose's Thorn - The Edge] and [Starfang - The Veshialle] or [Starfang - The Reaper's Cudgel] if Dual Striking, as these are among the best that both builds have access to.

I would also like to consider again what I mentioned in post #103, regarding the rogue focusing on getting more criticals. Using paralyze runes and keeping her AI controlled especially in a party where there are two warriors (essentially meaning lesser threat) would give her more backstabs, which makes me wonder if she should be considered a straight up duelist at all. A rogue that can backstab consistently would have the edge (and The Edge, huehuehue) for obvious reasons.

Lastly, I'd like to reiterate my feelings regarding comparing two companions instead of two wardens. If you are not stripping the warden of the best stuff and giving them to the concerned companion, neither build will realize their full potential, which can create biases. And this I believe undermines the value of the comparison. For me personally, it is more about pitting the best that a build that can be with the best of another, and checking which one comes on top, with regard to a certain quantity (DPS in this case).

At any rate, these are all speculations which I can't do much with without your input. As it is, I'm at a loss regarding where I went wrong.

 

Comparing Wardens vs Comparing companions:

 

You can't actually compare wardens in the same situation. You can only theorize. But you can compare companions. You can set them up and let them run. They are on the same play-field and the same time and actually get some indication of their comparative progress of their damage over a stretch of the game.

 

"The Edge" being better:

 

The edge is very nice, but rune damage was 15 to 11 for the sword wielder. This was the deep roads and those swords (Duncans/Marics) also have an additional +4 and +6 damage to darkspawn. So in this instance, I the swords easily have the edge covered.

 

Attack was about even because the Sword wielder had the Harvest Festival ring. Leli had all the cunning gear, since she was my lockpick.

 

Before the deep roads I didn't turn on Dual Striking. I was curious to see if it made a difference. I don't think it did much.

 

Infinite XP dummy to attack:

Of course they aren't just wailing on infinity HP stationary target, and that is part of the point, about theorycraft vs actually playing the game. The constant stream of fast attacks is both fun and effective.

 

For me using a 2H is just brutal. Even if the DPS was the same. The slow wind up is like watching paint dry. I am usually just watching Leli/Ali/Og go nuts while my character goes through his interminably slow swing.

[Blazomancer]

^^Oh I'm not giving in to it. I'm just laughing at it.

[Elhanan]

The edge is very nice, but rune damage was 15 to 11 for the sword wielder. This was the deep roads and those swords (Duncans/Marics) also have an additional +4 and +6 damage to darkspawn. So in this instance, I the swords easily have the edge covered.
 
Attack was about even because the Sword wielder had the Harvest Festival ring. Leli had all the cunning gear, since she was my lockpick.
 
Before the deep roads I didn't turn on Dual Striking. I was curious to see if it made a difference. I don't think it did much.
 
Of course they aren't just wailing on infinity HP stationary target, and that is part of the point, about theorycraft vs actually playing the game. The constant stream of fast attacks is both fun and effective.
 
For me using a 2H is just brutal. Even if the DPS was the same. The slow wind up is like watching paint dry. I am usually just watching Leli/Ali/Og go nuts while my character goes through his interminably slow swing.

The default 2H swing is indeed rather slow; reason I prefer having more Stamina to utilize Sunders as desired. But if one is playing a stagnant design, one should likely expect the same in the results....

[Blazomancer]

Leliana would surely benefit from CUNN! Theorycrafting and it's relevance on actual gameplay is something I understand, but that's not what I meant when I made that point; finishing off a target 0.2 s late wouldn't necessarily make combat any less fun. I only meant that having a kill stolen can be one contributor of having a lower damage aggregate when paired up.

Regarding not being able to compare wardens but companions, is something that I disagree with. It's true comparing wardens is theoretical, but that's the only way comparisons are possible in the days of emergent gameplay. Same applies to multiple companions in the same simulation, every variable is not having the same effect on each, more so when the characters are from different classes. The only way to compare them would be to run specifically programmed mirror simulations. And well, since we don't have them, having the characters go through the same battles separately in the same role can be a poor man's means of achieving such a goal. Far from perfect, may be not even close to the loosest definition of perfect, but seems only way to me.

Regarding the weapons, I'm fine if you think they are balanced. I'd have liked both of them to use the best though. Also I think dual striking would allow Leliana to steal kill much easier, because every third twin-hit is totally wasted.

I don't know, it's just hard for me to believe that there can be so must discrepancy (~24%) on even footing. Even a lesser deficit might have been more palatable, ~24% just boggles the mind.

[Snowdog65]

^

Leli is not a Bard with me (no SoC). She also does not have lethality, So she only gets a very small bump (~3) in AP from cunning.

 

I couldn't afford Rose/Vesh without gold cheating, so I don't have them. I am not running a Sim, I am just playing through and noticed an opportunity to gather some data. You would have to pay me a lot to convince me to change anything and try the deep roads again. Sick of it now.

 

If Leli steals the last sliver of health from an enemy, I really don't see it being that huge of an issue on damage count. Some but not 24% worth. She doesn't get credit for all the damage (or shouldn't).

 

Both of them regularly steal kills from me and I am maintaining 40% damage contribution. My main gripe with all their kill stealing, is it robs me of stamina regen.

 

Watching them play, it really seems like faster attacking character acquire targets instantly. Racing Leli to damaged Mobs, she will often kill hers and turn to finish mine before I do. Her DPS is just very even and always flowing. She also has dual paralyze runes and Coup de Grace (of course) so she get lots of crits.

 

I take it no one ever made a combat dummy mod that you could just attack to test damage over time? I do believe that Ali/Og should outdamage a combat dummy.

[SherryGold]

I see.  I don't end up picking up Zevran until the usual time, so like in last game Zev was level 11.  No combat movement or coup de grace even at that point.  I would need to go through saves to see when auto-level gives him those two skills.  I make him strength most of the time these days just for the sake of making him a hipster really.

 

As far as 2H goes, I understand why people might not like them.  They aren't exactly DPS, they are sort of control, and they are not exactly tanks so what are they?  Regarding aesthetics, it is pretty funny that dwarf 2H typically drags his sword through the ground.

I got Zev the normal way this round, though it took me quite a juggling in the circle tower to get him a level comfortably ahead of the warden. At level 11, he comes with exploit weakness and combat stealth. I would have given him combat stealth straight away anyway when he levels up, but it surprised me to see that his cunning was 17. The warden can't unlock combat stealth with 17 base cunning and it seems Zevran can. For that matter, Exploit weakness, you are supposed to unlock it only when you reach level 12 and he is only level 11. Auto leveling for companions seem to do some funny things. But I'm pretty happy with what I have at the moment, even though exploit weakness wouldn't have been my priority. Since I'm doing 'let's go poor like I used to' round, meaning not exploiting 'potent lyrium potion manufacturing' he is wearing his leather armor plus the bard's dancing shoes at the moment. He will have his dlc armor once we complete the warden's keep as the warden is a strength rogue. Veridium long sword + Thorn of gods for Zev at the moment. Pretty much usable for combat straight away and seems to be doing pretty well. I will be able to see how much difference gear and equipment makes, since I expect we won't be getting rose's thorn anytime soon and the warden has Edge.