How about we drop the stupid "hero" tag entirely? This isn't the 80s and 90s anymore. Heroes are considered stupid nowadays anyway, making stupid moves "for the right thing" and blindly risking their own lives, oblivious to everything else around them and making themselves prone to basic manipulation by someone barely smarter than George W. Bush.
If someone called ME a hero, I'd pop him right in the face.
So, I guess you regularly punch out Ashley ("heroman") - Sorry, just couldn't resist. 
So, I guess you regularly punch out Ashley ("heroman") - Sorry, just couldn't resist.
Ashley is a smoking crater on Virmire.......she doesn't do much talking.
So, I see... we want more player agency (from other threads)... but not if it involves a player wanting to role play a "whiny hero." Got it. (scratches head).
So, I see... we want more player agency (from other threads)... but not if it involves a player wanting to role play a "whiny hero." Got it. (scratches head).
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Whiny heroes have no place in the military to start with. Well, that's my view. Besides, I doubt a whiny hero is leadership material.
That hero definitely commands from the rear.
Two issues. Assuming we accept your premise how can we show these characters as strong without undermining the protagonist? I don't agree with your assessment of Ashley and Kaiden. They both whine. Ashley about Alliance politics, and Kaidan about about the Council. Is it not a whine if it isn't about their deep seated emotional issues?
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Good points. My premise is base on Bio interviews that discuss the team and the protag's need to navigate "minefields" with his team. Basically, decisions can be accepted by some and not others or the protag's approach to something. This, to me, implies a strong view and they are not wimpy about telling you about it.
About Ash and Kaidan.
I expect my team to focus on the mission and not complain about distant political issues... Council or otherwise. Do that offline. It's one of the main reasons I never played them. And, that, didn't take long for me do decide. I guess if the character fails to hook me or pizzez me off within X amount of Team Time, they are gone. May be a mistake on my part... but that;s the way I play the first go around.
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Good points. My premise is base on Bio interviews that discuss the team and the protag's need to navigate "minefields" with his team. Basically, decisions can be accepted by some and not others or the protag's approach to something. This, to me, implies a strong view and they are not wimpy about telling you about it.
About Ash and Kaidan.
I expect my team to focus on the mission and not complain about distant political issues... Council or otherwise. Do that offline. It's one of the main reasons I never played them. And, that, didn't take long for me do decide. I guess if the character fails to hook me or pizzez me off within X amount of Team Time, they are gone. May be a mistake on my part... but that;s the way I play the first go around.
So... you want robots?
Have you been in the military? I have not, but the few people I know who have did not always focus on "the mission". They were actual people with hopes of getting back home... prejudices... compassions... etc. etc. and distractions... always distractions I'm told.
The "mission" is the combat obstacle course Bioware decides to send you in that's bookended by some very basic storytelling - and next to no roleplaying occurs while we're pew pewing three hundred random nameless mobs.
The time on the ship (camp, castle, whatever) isn't "the mission" for your team... the time on the ship is the "mission" for the comms officers, the medical personel, the science team, etc. All the character we don't get to play because gamers wouldn't be able to NOT kill ten thousands mobs in any given Bioware game without declaring it "boring".
This is just weird. They're not allowed to talk about politics in their downtime?I expect my team to focus on the mission and not complain about distant political issues... Council or otherwise. Do that offline. It's one of the main reasons I never played them. And, that, didn't take long for me do decide. I guess if the character fails to hook me or pizzez me off within X amount of Team Time, they are gone. May be a mistake on my part... but that;s the way I play the first go around.
I want more whining chicken like characters, bring back Xan!
I want more whining chicken like characters, bring back Xan!
How about we drop the stupid "hero" tag entirely? This isn't the 80s and 90s anymore. Heroes are considered stupid nowadays anyway, making stupid moves "for the right thing" and blindly risking their own lives, oblivious to everything else around them and making themselves prone to basic manipulation by someone barely smarter than George W. Bush.
If someone called ME a hero, I'd pop him right in the face.
What is a whiny character? It seems that is a wide concept. I never saw Ash and Kaidan as "whiny", they had opinions, some even strongly, but they never come of as they whined about everything. Ashley was concerned how the other races would react if they had to chose between human and them (a valid concern) and that the military is insane enough to punish the descendands for one man's "cowardness".
kaidan only said that the aliens are just like humans, some are good and some are *******.
If this is what you call whiny, then I don't have any problem with "whiny" characters. 
I do want that they stand for what they believe and not just accept that I shoot a unarmed prisoner just because I don't feel like transporting it. (If they are against execute defenseless people)
And I hope we can RP a character that is nice, but ready to kill anybody that try to harm me and my friends.
I've seen Bioware's attempt at a self loathing or whiny character. So...no to that.
The world could always use more heroes.
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Whiny heroes have no place in the military to start with. Well, that's my view. Besides, I doubt a whiny hero is leadership material.
That hero definitely commands from the rear.
Just pointing out the dichotomy here... has nothing to do with whether or not I feel that whiny heroes have no place in the military or, ultimately, whether even Bioware feels that whiny heroes have no place in the military. If Bioware decides that the player can't play a "whiny hero" if they want and removes the dialogue that would enable that choice... they are judged as tromping on the player's toes and moving away from producing an RPG... but if certain groups of players want to enforce their opinions on other players... that's supposed to be OK?... because the "norm" is right now that "we don't like whiny heroes."
IMO, it should be OK for Bioware to limit our player characterization to whatever they feel is a logical range for the story they are trying to tell... because the player base is all over the map with this.
Whiny is a word I dislike to the point where someone who complains about it, sounds like they are whining. Overused in the majority of situations.
I would like my character to have a range of choices from snarky to polite to rude. And I would like the NPCs to have personalities.
I want them to be interesting and I want to like some of them, be surprised by a few and occasionally I want to be betrayed by them, with the option of killing them. 
I've always found BioWare characters satisfy this regard. Whether I like them or not they have been interesting. Jack, Thane, Sky, Sam, Steve, Garrus, Mordin, Wrex, Morrigan, Alistair, Wynne, Zev, Leliana, Cullen, Nathaniel, Ashley, Tali, Wrex, Cole, Solas, Cass, Dorian, Blackwall, Sara, Kasumi, James, Joker, Edi, HK47, Jolee, Canderous, Master Li, Ashley and even Maranda. All of them have entertained me. Even when I didn't like their personality, Morrigan, Zaeed, Maranda, Oghren, they still entertained me.
I Loved Carth. He had some of the best dialogue ever and I will never ever get tired of "I think you hurt my man feelings", and "I'm all ears Beautiful". And same goes for Kaidan. I adore that character "I'll try to keep the deck dry"; "I'm 32 Shepard, you don't serve as long as I have without coming to terms with yourself"; I do hope they have one or two that have the boy scout image and I also hope BioWare makes characters who stand for what they believe and don't jump in line just because my character says jump.
I don't have to like them all, I don't think I'd enjoy a game where I liked them all 100%. A good character can be someone I dislike, if they make me feel something it's a good character, but for the most part I would also like to have the option of picking the ones I want for my team and leaving the others behind, like Garrus and Wrex, or most of the ME2 group. I'm sure there will some we have to include, there always are but the one thing I have never had a major problem with, are their characters.
Human male squadmates have been always felt like an afterthought which is the biggest area i'd like to see BioWare devote attention to. Kaidan and Jacob who were so painfully dull, typical yes men who inspired no confidence, loyalty, warm feelings or empathy, little to no humor or memorable dialogue. Why girls would want to romance either in playthroughs I have no idea. Vega had a little more personality which I attribute mostly to Freddy Prinze Jr rather than bioware - he felt like real person despite lack of characterization but not the kind you really want to spend time with.
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Good points. My premise is base on Bio interviews that discuss the team and the protag's need to navigate "minefields" with his team. Basically, decisions can be accepted by some and not others or the protag's approach to something. This, to me, implies a strong view and they are not wimpy about telling you about it.
About Ash and Kaidan.
I expect my team to focus on the mission and not complain about distant political issues... Council or otherwise. Do that offline. It's one of the main reasons I never played them. And, that, didn't take long for me do decide. I guess if the character fails to hook me or pizzez me off within X amount of Team Time, they are gone. May be a mistake on my part... but that;s the way I play the first go around.
What the heck are characters supposed to talk about for hours on end?
Human male squadmates have been always felt like an afterthought which is the biggest area i'd like to see BioWare devote attention to. Kaidan and Jacob who were so painfully dull, typical yes men types who inspired no confidence, loyalty, warm feelings or empathy, little to no humor or memorable dialogue. Why females would want to romance either in playthroughs I have no idea. Vega had a little more personality which I attribute mostly to Freddy Prinze Jr rather than bioware - he felt like real person despite lack of characterization but not the kind you really want to spend time with.
I wouldn't say any of our previous squadmates were heroic or that would be desirable in a supporting cast. Garrus, Wrex, & Mordin were easily the most believable characters in the game because they were archetypal but in a way which lent to distinct yet recognizable personalities observable in the real world shaped by their well written backstories - If a character isn't flawed in some way then they don't really have character but flawed is a loaded and incorrect term. Myer's Briggs is flawed but the archetypes are clearly observable even in Mass Effect and it rightly recognizes that every strongly defined trait has inexplicably linked upsides and downsides which inform all good character design and relationships - It's always best to think of characters in literature in terms of MB typing. A heroic character is likely ISTP, an introspective creative character like Mordin is typically INTP - diversity along the MB spectrum is key to draw attention to distinct traits and create drama around them reflective of real life. Having an abundance of homogeneity whether that be of leaders (ESTP) or even creative types will lead to stagnation and group think while having a smaller group of extremes won't reflect real life but will lead to friction and comedy.
After you have dated enough A….holes you appreciate the nice guys who, in your opinion may be boring, but they can make us laugh and they did have warmth, humor and all around niceness. Though I would have liked a bit more humor in the dialogue.
Garrus Wrex and Mordin were great characters.
I think, nothing wrong with Alenko, I like him, probably something wrong with me... (hmm big chance... I like Anders too.)
Just once, I'd like a character who may have an issue to resolve, but it isn't something that was emotionally scarring although it could still be a big personal roadblock. I'd like a strong right hand man/woman who is confident, capable, and able to pick up your slack. Someone who has your back and is more than willing to do what needs to be done.
I know that such a character would likely annoy some as it would end up getting the bro treatment by nature, but I'd like to see it. If done well, i think it could be pulled off.
So... you want robots?
Have you been in the military? I have not, but the few people I know who have did not always focus on "the mission". They were actual people with hopes of getting back home... prejudices... compassions... etc. etc. and distractions... always distractions I'm told.
The "mission" is the combat obstacle course Bioware decides to send you in that's bookended by some very basic storytelling - and next to no roleplaying occurs while we're pew pewing three hundred random nameless mobs.
The time on the ship (camp, castle, whatever) isn't "the mission" for your team... the time on the ship is the "mission" for the comms officers, the medical personel, the science team, etc. All the character we don't get to play because gamers wouldn't be able to NOT kill ten thousands mobs in any given Bioware game without declaring it "boring".
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That's why I said "do that offline".
Front Line night patrols are done in absolute silence. So is when your mission objective is to slit throats of sleeping enemy troops.
But you can go ahead and be cavalier about it.
Just once, I'd like a character who may have an issue to resolve, but it isn't something that was emotionally scarring although it could still be a big personal roadblock. I'd like a strong right hand man/woman who is confident, capable, and able to pick up your slack. Someone who has your back and is more than willing to do what needs to be done.
I know that such a character would likely annoy some as it would end up getting the bro treatment by nature, but I'd like to see it. If done well, i think it could be pulled off.
That's basically why I wound up liking James Vega so much.
Just once, I'd like a character who may have an issue to resolve, but it isn't something that was emotionally scarring although it could still be a big personal roadblock. I'd like a strong right hand man/woman who is confident, capable, and able to pick up your slack. Someone who has your back and is more than willing to do what needs to be done.
I know that such a character would likely annoy some as it would end up getting the bro treatment by nature, but I'd like to see it. If done well, i think it could be pulled off.
I think it would be boring. All you companion are strong enough, and have some personal or other problem. He help you, you help him. It's okay, is not it?
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