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Templars can become addicted to lyrium - what about mages?


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#1
Havyn25

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I've played all 3 games numerous times. If you're a rogue or warrior, you can consume stamina potion, while a mage can consume lyrium potion to replenish mana. Yet a lot of the Templars we see are addicted to lyrium. I've not seen a mage addicted to it as yet if there is one and I've missed them, please let me know :)

 

Why do mages not become addicted to the lyrium? Or do they and I just haven't come across it anywhere yet? Or is it the way it is prepared preventing it from being addictive? Whatever they add to the lyrium potion to make it a potion rather than just lyrium perhaps.

 

Just some random thoughts going round in my head as I procrastinate over my fanfic which is taking on epic proportions. ;)



#2
Force of the North

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My guess would be that lyrium is like other addictive substance. Mages take it and use it immediately when they need it. Templars take it often and on schedule whether or not they need it "just in case". Their bodies become more accustomed to have the foreign substance present and when it is not the person goes throw withdrawals.

#3
Serza

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Originally, Origins was to have this feature for Mages and Templars alike. Then they scrapped it for gameplay purposes.


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#4
phoray

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In the Fereldan Circle Is a Mage addicted to lyrium. He's the one hiding in the closet that you free; then he decides to going back in th e closest because he's a coward. Then there is a dwarf that offers your becoming a lyrium smuggler for 50 gold (which I never have) and I think you run the lyrium to that very same mage to sell within the Circle on the downlow. (Implied.) But since I never have the gold, I can't confirm that last bit.
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#5
thats1evildude

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In the Fereldan Circle Is a Mage addicted to lyrium. He's the one hiding in the closet that you free; then he decides to going back in th e closest because he's a coward. Then there is a dwarf that offers your becoming a lyrium smuggler for 50 gold (which I never have) and I think you run the lyrium to that very same mage to sell within the Circle on the downlow. (Implied.) But since I never have the gold, I can't confirm that last bit.

 

He wasn't addicted to lyrium; he was selling it to the templars.

 

Lyrium doesn't seem to have quite the same addictive effect on mages as it does on templars, but prolonged use does cause physical mutations. That's according to the first codex on lyrium from Dragon Age Origins.

 

Notably, the first time Calpernia met Corypheus, she didn't find his appearance unsettling because as a native of Minrathous "she’d seen magical deformity before, some of it self-inflicted."


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#6
Totally Not a Poodle

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Mages use it when they need it. Templars use it when they need it. Templars have been conditioned to use it. It's a chain the Chantry has on them. They are addicts because the Chantry has made them so.



#7
Captain Wiseass

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Don't mages use lyrium in diluted potion form, while templars take it straight?


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#8
Lazarillo

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Don't mages use lyrium in diluted potion form, while templars take it straight?

More or less, yes. Even Templars have to filter it down but they take it a lot more directly than mages who use it.

#9
nightscrawl

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Not much to add to the already good replies, but I'll post this official response about lyrium addition.
 

The implementation we had was that, if the addiction developed, the use of lyrium had diminishing returns. You needed more and got less. The problem we encountered, as you point out, is that mages pretty much needed to drink lyrium potions. Addiction was practically guaranteed. So there needed to be some method of dealing with the addiction without rendering it pointless, and ideally some kind of story implication...
 
...and you can see why it suddenly became costly. If we could come up with some other implementation that was meaningful, I'd like to see return in the future -- it was something templar characters were meant to face as well as mages, after all. Suggestions would be welcome... though perhaps in another thread.

 
To this day, I'd imagine that portraying lyrium addition, and incorporating that into the mage class and templar spec is very much of a game mechanic versus story issue. DAI was the closest they've come with incorporating that into the discussion of templars, Cullen's issue, and also the part of the templar spec quest that requires the Inquisitor to construct a philter. Even with that, the player is still not required to chug lyrium as part of templar spec play and it remains only part of the story aspect.
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#10
Medhia_Nox

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To this day, I'd imagine that portraying lyrium addition, and incorporating that into the mage class and templar spec is very much of a game mechanic versus story issue. DAI was the closest they've come with incorporating that into the discussion of templars, Cullen's issue, and also the part of the templar spec quest that requires the Inquisitor to construct a philter. Even with that, the player is still not required to chug lyrium as part of templar spec play and it remains only part of the story aspect.

 

Such a loss to storytelling potential... pity. 



#11
thats1evildude

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I believe the Inquisitor does have to take lyrium to use the Templar specialization.

#12
nightscrawl

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^ I'm referring to actual gameplay. Yes, you construct a philter and take lyrium as part of the story of the spec, but the player is not required to drink lyrium while playing the Templar spec.



#13
Pasquale1234

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Here's another wee theory...

When a mage takes lyrium, they're essentially replenishing something that their physiology already naturally has and processes (magic), so it's sort of the equivalent of refueling with food.

To a mundane, lyrium (magic) is a foreign substance, and unnatural, so it has an addictive drug-like effect.

The self-inflicted magical deformity mentioned upthread may be a result of trying to channel too much magical energy at once, relying on outside sources (lyrium and/or blood), similar to overeating.
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#14
Sah291

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I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. Normally, mages don't need lyrium, but without it they are more limited in what they can do, and so they almost all use it to supplement their power. Dreamers don't need it at all.

Maybe mages don't use as much or as often for that reason, or just have a better tolerance built up. But there are certainly instances of mages becoming power hungry with other sources of power (blood) or going insane and becoming abominations, etc...maybe some of that can be attributed to lyrium. That rift mage instructor sure sounds like her mind has been fried, come to think of it.

I agree though it's probably a gameplay/story segregation thing, that was a little easier to write on paper than to incorporate into the actual game. They'd have to explain why the mage PC never becomes addicted even though they are chugging huge amounts of lyrium vials all day long in combat, etc. That would probably be enough to kill someone in reality.
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#15
BansheeOwnage

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I don't see any reason why they wouldn't. Normally, mages don't need lyrium, but without it they are more limited in what they can do, and so they almost all use it to supplement their power. Dreamers don't need it at all.

Are you sure? They don't need it to enter the fade, obviously, but wouldn't it still augment/replenish their power/mana? Solas can use lyrium potions, but that might be gameplay-story segregation if true.



#16
nightscrawl

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^ Lyrium is used to augment a mage's own power for really big spells. Similarly, blood magic, and the amount of blood used (hundreds of slaves to enter the Golden City) does the same.
 
There are two examples of this stated in the games that I can recall at the moment. The first is in DAO when you go to the mages for assistance with Connor. When you return to the castle, Irving mentions having brought lyrium and extra mages. The second is in DA2 when you learn about Merrill's use of blood magic shortly after meeting her. She says, "If I had piles of lyrium lying about I could have used that."
 
The whole thing in these games with mana as a power source for mages, and how that applies to the lore aspect of it, has always been really thin to me. The official codex explanation of mana is, "a measurement of one's ability to draw power from the Fade." Forgetting game mechanics for the moment, how is an individual's mana level measured??
 
The entire codex is Mana and the Use of Magic.
 

Mana is that which defines a mage. It is potential that dwells within a person but does not always manifest itself. All men are connected to the Fade; we go there to dream. But only those with this potential may draw upon its power. Mana is, then, a measurement of one's ability to draw power from the Fade, and it is this power that is expended in magic.
 
As in all other things, it has limits. Just as a man has the strength to lift only so much weight and no more, a mage cannot work more magic at one time than his mana allows. If he wishes to work magic that would be beyond his strength, a mage must bolster his mana with lyrium. Without lyrium, it is possible for the reckless to expend their own life-force in the working of magic, and occasionally, ambitious apprentices injure or even kill themselves by over-exertion.
 
--From The Lectures of First Enchanter Wenselus


I've never been able to reconcile the lore explanation of mana with the game mechanic of mana as a power source in my own mind. In the game, mages drink lyrium potions to replenish mana, but the lore suggests that lyrium potions should instead prevent it from being depleted, increasing our reserves.

 

I think ideally, to meld the lore with the gameplay, the implementation of lyrium potions would work like so. The mage class would have a smallish, fixed mana pool, let's say of 100 mana. Most minor spells would cost < 100 mana and mana would regenerate naturally over time. That's all fine. But really BIG spells would cost > 100 mana, say 110, 125, etc, depending on the spell. In order to use those spells, the player would have to think ahead and take a lyrium potion to temporarily increase their mana pool in order to cast The Big One. Lyrium might also have diminishing returns over time, so the first time you use it you gain +50 mana, the second time is +40, and so on. This would reflect the natural build up of lyrium resistance in the mage and also prevent the player from casting The Big One too often.

 

To keep it fun, the cooldowns, hidden and visible, on all of these things would reset once combat is over, so you don't have to worry about saving your lyrium just for boss fights. Or alternately, it might actually be more realistic to require the player to save these large and costly spells for boss fights, but I think that can lead to gameplay that makes these spells feels less fun if you're hoarding them "just in case." For example, I hardly ever use DAI focus abilities while I'm out in the world and do typically save them for boss fights or really difficult rifts.


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#17
thats1evildude

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Lyrium potions in DAI boost your Magic score, so I believe they're working as intended now.



#18
Havyn25

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Lots of good points there to think about, thanks :)



#19
Sah291

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Are you sure? They don't need it to enter the fade, obviously, but wouldn't it still augment/replenish their power/mana? Solas can use lyrium potions, but that might be gameplay-story segregation if true.

Yeah, they are said in codex to have a natural talent to access the fade without lyrium. It sounds like most mages really do need it for fade work, like the Harrowing in the mage origin in DAO. But of course there's no reason dreamers couldn't also use lyrium to enhance and replenish also.

It would seem mages fear accidentally using too much of their own energy and hurting themselves that way, more than any long term negative effects of lyrium. Any problem mages who become deranged or become a threat are probably just made tranquil, or killed. Templars on the other hand seem to be kicked out of the Order at that point and end up on the streets as drifters, beggars, etc.