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[Lifealope]

This is my third character my first one a female qunari mage, romanced Josaphine, my second one a male rogue elf romance Dorian, and now I play a human male mage and I had full intent on romance The Iron Bull. I appear to be unable to get the Iron Bull's quest to trigger and I I can start into a romance with Dorian and I do love him so. Is this bug with Iron Bulls quest a sign? Was my romance with Dorian meant to be? I want to remain loyal to the Iron Bull but my heart flutters at the idea of loving Dorian but it feels almost like cheating even though I have committed to bull yet. My character is also named Mishka meaning little bear, he was named that so he could well, be a little bear with Iron Bull.

[LobselVith8]

This is my third character my first one a female qunari mage, romanced Josaphine, my second one a male rogue elf romance Dorian, and now I play a human male mage and I had full intent on romance The Iron Bull. I appear to be unable to get the Iron Bull's quest to trigger and I I can start into a romance with Dorian and I do love him so. Is this bug with Iron Bulls quest a sign? Was my romance with Dorian meant to be? I want to remain loyal to the Iron Bull but my heart flutters at the idea of loving Dorian but it feels almost like cheating even though I have committed to bull yet. My character is also named Mishka meaning little bear, he was named that so he could well, be a little bear with Iron Bull.

 

Follow your heart. If it was must to be, then it was meant to be.

[Lifealope]

Follow your heart. If it was must to be, then it was meant to be.

Right after making this post I went to talk to Iron Bull, to hammer out my feelings, and the quest triggered so I guess Dorian was not meant to be this time around. Though now I have to make the heart crushing choice of saving or not saving the Chargers.

[LobselVith8]

Right after making this post I went to talk to Iron Bull, to hammer out my feelings, and the quest triggered so I guess Dorian was not meant to be this time around. Though now I have to make the heart crushing choice of saving or not saving the Chargers.

 

Why are you torn with that choice? Maybe it'll help you to evaluate what you want to do with your character arc.

[phoray]

Right after making this post I went to talk to Iron Bull, to hammer out my feelings, and the quest triggered so I guess Dorian was not meant to be this time around. Though now I have to make the heart crushing choice of saving or not saving the Chargers.

I just never felt that pull to ally with the Qunari like, ever. I'm not a country. The Inquisition was created with a specific intent and a built with an end point; fix the breach. But then that mess had us learn about two other messes, and why not, th e Chantry still isn't figured out and Orlais and Fereldan are busy being was torn countries. What would this alliance even mean? It's pretty shallow on the Qun's part; let's promise an ambiguous alliance to a temporary organization that's popular right now.

[LobselVith8]

I just never felt that pull to ally with the Qunari like, ever. I'm not a country. The Inquisition was created with a specific intent and a built with an end point; fix the breach. But then that mess had us learn about two other messes, and why not, th e Chantry still isn't figured out and Orlais and Fereldan are busy being was torn countries. What would this alliance even mean? It's pretty shallow on the Qun's part; let's promise an ambiguous alliance to a temporary organization that's popular right now.

 

I don't think it's necessarily shallow, I think it's calculated - aside from using the Inquisition as a 'backdoor' into Andrastian lands, there's also the likely possibility that the Qunari use the Inquisition for this opportunity (Bull's personal quest) in order to purposefully get the Chargers killed - Iron Bull's surrogate family (who they likely view as detrimental to Iron Bull's adherence to the Qun).

[phoray]

I don't think it's necessarily shallow, I think it's calculated - aside from using the Inquisition as a 'backdoor' into Andrastian lands, there's also the likely possibility that the Qunari use the Inquisition for this opportunity (Bull's personal quest) in order to purposefully get the Chargers killed - Iron Bull's surrogate family (who they likely view as detrimental to Iron Bull's adherence to the Qun).

Yes. We know that. But from the perspective of someone who was thrust to the head of an organization, willingly or unwillingly, and one thinks about alliances and their meanings... every other alliance with the Inquisition required Josephine and 300 pages of paperwork. The Qun is just like. "Hey. Show up and protect a boat and we'll totally ally with you. You want details? Eh. Let's see if you protect the boat and then we'll talk."

Maybe if you have a non noble background, or a trusting heart, maybe ? Then you'd take the word of a race that has been at war with Thedas for many years?

[Ghost Gal]

Right after making this post I went to talk to Iron Bull, to hammer out my feelings, and the quest triggered so I guess Dorian was not meant to be this time around. Though now I have to make the heart crushing choice of saving or not saving the Chargers.

 

How is saving the Chargers heart-crushing?

 

The Qunari tried to conquer and convert all of Thedas and only called a "truce" when most of Thedas banded together and pushed them to the edge of the map, and are now sending spies like Iron Bull out to... well, spy on most of Thedas while keeping their own secrets pressed tightly to their chests. Personally, I don't trust them as far as I can throw one of their dreadnaughts. Individual Qunari like Sten? Sure, they're honorable to a fault and I know they'll keep their word for as long as the terms of the agreement apply. The Qunari government? They consider all non-Qunari "bas" (literally "things") not worth being honest or honorable to, and whom they like to spy on while at the same time refusing to give up any of their own information. (I see you only have DAI, but previous games - DAO and DA2 - had Qunari characters - Sten in DAO and the Arishok in DA2 - who showed how little the Qunari try to hide the fact that their truce with Thedas is only temporary, and how they have every intention of trying to conquer and convert Thedas again, as soon as they're strong enough for another strike.)

 

To me, the answer was always easy. Save the Chargers.

[LobselVith8]

Yes. We know that. But from the perspective of someone who was thrust to the head of an organization, willingly or unwillingly, and one thinks about alliances and their meanings... every other alliance with the Inquisition required Josephine and 300 pages of paperwork. The Qun is just like. "Hey. Show up and protect a boat and we'll totally ally with you. You want details? Eh. Let's see if you protect the boat and then we'll talk."

Maybe if you have a non noble background, or a trusting heart, maybe ? Then you'd take the word of a race that has been at war with Thedas for many years?

 

Ah, I see what you mean. I'd imagine the person has heard of the Qunari; Zathrian's clan were familiar with the Qunari in dialogue with Sten, to the point where they criticize the notion of the Qunari ruling over them (and with the Arishok's attempted takeover of Kirkwall, it likely made waves in the Free Marches and may have reached the ears of Clan Lavellan); the carta have their hands in a lot of pots, and House Cadash is also operating in the Free Marches. I imagine a person could proceed with the alliance due to thinking that there might be some positive ramifications (better understanding between both groups, or perhaps even some positive change on the side of the Qunari).

[Lifealope]

How is saving the Chargers heart-crushing?

 

The Qunari tried to conquer and convert all of Thedas and only called a "truce" when most of Thedas banded together and pushed them to the edge of the map, and are now sending spies like Iron Bull out to... well, spy on most of Thedas while keeping their own secrets pressed tightly to their chests. Personally, I don't trust them as far as I can throw one of their dreadnaughts. Individual Qunari like Sten? Sure, they're honorable to a fault and I know they'll keep their word for as long as the terms of the agreement apply. The Qunari government? They consider all non-Qunari "bas" (literally "things") not worth being honest or honorable to, and whom they like to spy on while at the same time refusing to give up any of their own information. (I see you only have DAI, but previous games - DAO and DA2 - had Qunari characters - Sten in DAO and the Arishok in DA2 - who showed how little the Qunari try to hide the fact that their truce with Thedas is only temporary, and how they have every intention of trying to conquer and convert Thedas again, as soon as they're strong enough for another strike.)

 

To me, the answer was always easy. Save the Chargers.

I find it heart crushing to watch The Iron Bull lose his religion. I've always wanted a religion that I believed in fullheartedly and that I felt made me a better person and while I know it's a video game it just pulls at my heart strings to see him lose that. Especially with this character since I made him a faithful inquisitor. I just started dragon age origins at my friends house though I would like to get it for myself sadly I don't have a a ps3 or an xbox 360 so it's a bit hard for me to play those games. I enjoy computer games don't get me wrong but it feels wrong to start a series on console and switch to computer.

[Lifealope]

Why are you torn with that choice? Maybe it'll help you to evaluate what you want to do with your character arc.

My character if a faithful character I think he was of noble birth but I was sent to a circle when I was young. I want order and peace but I do not want to restore the circles or maybe I do, normally I don't but with this character I think he might feel safer with the circles. In my own brain I gave him a back story of accidentally burning his family barn down and being unable to save his horse so the circle let him take care of the horses at the circle when he had control of his magic. When the rebellion started he took a horse and fled. My character is sarcastic, fell in love with the iron bull because of his jokes. In the end I saved the chargers because I really like Krem's story line. (As a transmale myself it just makes me happy that he is in there and I love that The Iron Bull respects him)

[Gervaise]

I know what you mean about destroying his religion but I hate the Qun so much I always feel I am doing Bull a favour in getting him out of it.   In any case, he still seems to believe in the Qun as a system, just is no longer part of it himself.   Long term he's got the Chargers, who are like a family to him, particularly Krem, so even though he seems unhappy about the label Tal'Vashoth, I never feel that bad about giving it to him.

 

I've only sacrificed the Chargers once, simply because I like to try and explore all options in my various playthroughs.   However, the way I role played the Inquisitor who did it, I came to really dislike him and ultimately haven't been able to finish his run.    He wasn't evil; just too measured and calculating, a less bitchy male version of Vivienne.   The fact that Vivienne just loved him probably says it all.    I'm sure he will go far in the future but I just stopped feeling inclined to take him there.

[VivainaDX]

I think Bull is much happier with the Chargers than he ever was with his religion, anyways. I always save the Chargers, my reasoning is, since it was the Quinari that suggested the mission and came to the IQ about it and since it was them that came up with the game plan and scouted the area, then it should be them that take the loss. I can't shake the feeling that they were trying to force a scenario where they punish Bull by making him lose his men. They were gambling on the Inquisition valuing a treaty with the Quinari over the lives of the Chargers and I'm quite content to prove them wrong. The Chargers are very valuable to the Inquisition.  

 

And if I was choosing between Dorian and the Bull for romance, I'd stick with Dorian. I didn't find the Bull relationship very romantic. I t was funny in parts though.  

[BansheeOwnage]

I find it heart crushing to watch The Iron Bull lose his religion. I've always wanted a religion that I believed in fullheartedly and that I felt made me a better person and while I know it's a video game it just pulls at my heart strings to see him lose that. Especially with this character since I made him a faithful inquisitor. I just started dragon age origins at my friends house though I would like to get it for myself sadly I don't have a a ps3 or an xbox 360 so it's a bit hard for me to play those games. I enjoy computer games don't get me wrong but it feels wrong to start a series on console and switch to computer.

The Qun is more of a philosophy than a religion, and Bull can still use it personally even if he's Tal-Vasoth. Bull having a family and his internal support is a much better outcome than only his internal support and that of people who are happy the Chargers are dead.

 

And religions don't make you better, you make you better. So just do that.

[Gervaise]

Actually it may only be a small point, by the Qun is not a religion, it is a political  and social system based on the philosophy of its founder.   The Qun itself does not allow for the existence of religions.   It is placed in the section under Religion in World of Thedas out of convenience but it is really anti-religion.    It is more akin to Communism.

[nightscrawl]

Well, Fenris does refer to Koslun as "the founder of their religion." I realize he's not Qunari himself, but he does have more of an understanding of them than many other people we've met.

 

Also, religion doesn't necessarily have to refer to worshiping any particular deity.

 

Some definitions of religion include "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices," and "something one believes in and follows devotedly." The Qun certainly falls under that definition of religion. You can also use it casually to say something like, "John follows <sports team> religiously," and so on.

 

It's not really akin to Communism in that people don't "believe" in Communism in the same way the Qun is believed in. Communism is a structured ordering of society. But the Qun is a way of thinking and being that I don't think has any parallels in the real world.

[DementedSheep]

I think Bull is much happier with the Chargers than he ever was with his religion, anyways. I always save the Chargers, my reasoning is, since it was the Quinari that suggested the mission and came to the IQ about it and since it was them that came up with the game plan and scouted the area, then it should be them that take the loss. I can't shake the feeling that they were trying to force a scenario where they punish Bull by making him lose his men. They were gambling on the Inquisition valuing a treaty with the Quinari over the lives of the Chargers and I'm quite content to prove them wrong. The Chargers are very valuable to the Inquisition.  

 

And if I was choosing between Dorian and the Bull for romance, I'd stick with Dorian. I didn't find the Bull relationship very romantic. I t was funny in parts though.  

Problem is, it's not just the alliance. Unless the Qun somehow mastered automated dreadnuaghts there are a lot of people on that ship (100 or so according to the wiki) that you just condemned to death. You just don't see it close up or know them personally. I never liked how much that was glossed over. Saving the chargers always seemed a bit selfish to me.

[nightscrawl]

^ That's a fair point. Then again, it's like so many deaths of that type in action-y entertainment. The stories are generally written in such a way as to keep the player or viewer's mind focused only on the main characters and their struggles. "Oh, half a city was destroyed in an Avengers or Transformers movie? No big deal!" Thank the Maker that little shawarma shop is okay. There were probably people in most of those buildings, but because we don't see them, for the most part it's, "Out of sight, out of mind." (Yes, I understand that some of this was addressed [finally!] in the recent Captain America movie, but my point still stands for the genre as a whole.)

 

Unfortunately, because of the nature of quests in these games, you can't save the dreadnought and also tell the Qunari to go to the Void, which is also a reasonable option if this were a real situation. You might make a command decision that the lives of scores of Qunari are "worth" more than a handful of the Chargers simply because there are more of them.

 

But what is the true value of those lives? Is it only measured in their number? What about the fact that the Chargers are doing good works with the Inquisition and helping to restore order, potentially saving even more (civilian) lives? Shouldn't that be factored into consideration as well?

 

Generally speaking, I think people do make an emotional decision over a tactical one. I do not exempt myself from this. Players care about Iron Bull and his feelings for his men and they also care about the Chargers. I've no doubt that the drinking scene was calculated to ensure that this would be an emotionally taxing decision for the player. You get to know most of them and see some of their little personality quirks, how they're a family, and how they are welcoming to the Inquisitor.

 

I would say that the flip side of the coin is that the majority of players have no love for the Qun, regardless of their liking for Bull and his Chargers, so they might make that choice either way.

[Gervaise]

The Chargers are more than a handful of soldiers as well.    Because we only ever see that core group, people assume that is the entirety of the Chargers.    WoT2 makes it clear that whilst Bull's mercenary group is smaller than most, it is still numbers at least 50, possibly more.     So it is a case of sacrificing one group of soldiers for another group of soldiers, given we don't know exactly how many were on the dreadnought.     The main difference between the two is that you have met some of the principle members of the Chargers and got to know them, so they do have a human face to them that you can identify with, making it harder to abandon them instead of the other faceless group, simply for the sake of a political alliance.   The Chargers also do work directly for us, whereas the people on the dreadnought will always be under control of the Qun.  

 

The whole point about the quest, apart from the effect on Bull, is that it is a choice between your heart and your head so far as the political alliance is concerned.   Can you make the difficult decision to sacrifice people you know for the sake of the alliance.    I will admit that if you hate the Qun as much as I do, really you shouldn't agree to work with them at all; I'm sure they wouldn't allow that lyrium shipment to leave simply because you refuse to do so.    However, the mechanics of the game won't take no as an answer, since I tried it.   After giving the quest, it is now impossible to go to the Storm Coast with Bull because the quest will trigger.    Of course knowing that it is vital to cutting Bull loose from the Qun gives an incentive to go along with the proposal but that is in hindsight; the first time it is given it really does seem purely about whether you want to work with the Qun or not, and more importantly whether you trust them.

[DementedSheep]

With lives, unfortunately yes it dose come down to a numbers game in a lot of situations especially on this scale and with the position your character is in. Plus if your going to be taking future lives into account having the  Qun as an ally against Corypheus is more likely to be the winning bet there.

 

Regardless I don't like that quest. It feels like it was written by a character writer if you know what I mean. it's like the writer/s were completely focused on Bull, his conflicted loyalties and the Chargers which shows. In terms of how the characters interact and how Bull reacts it's good. I also really liked the convo between Bull and Cole if the Chargers died, it's heartbreaking as it should be. The circumstances they used to force this however...just seem like an after thought and it's not portrayed in game very well so it's hard to tell what you are doing. I would assume there are also more than 5 Chargers. There were more of them when they were introduced. I would also assume the Chargers are meant to be further away from you and that the Tevinter forces are suppose to be more clearly out of their league.

 

Stories glossing over lots of "unimportant" deaths is a bit of pet peeve of mine even though it's so common so it probably bothers me more than most people.

 

Edit: whoops, beaten to the punch about the number of Chargers.

Edit 2:  argh sorry, writing with a touch pen so I have even more typos than usual.

[nightscrawl]

With lives, unfortunately yes it dose come down to a numbers game in a lot of situations especially on this scale and with the position your character is in. Plus if your going to be taking future lives into account having the  Qun as an ally against Corypheus is more likely to be the winning bet there.

I think it also depends on how long-term you're willing to look. Sure, the Qunari say they're only concerned with Corypheus and red lyrium, and that may be true, but they are known to want to "fix" the rest of Thedas and are just biding their time until the next invasion. Should we really give them a foothold, ANY foothold, or make it any easier for them to do so in the future? How many lives will be lost then?

 

You can even bring up your trust issues with Bull when he starts the quest and he agrees.

 

My Inquisitor is looking at the long game, not just about defeating Corypheus, which is why he aims to restore order and stability.

[Hazegurl]

I like the idea of allying with the Qun because they are a necessary evil to use in defeating Cory in case the South falls and I like the idea of feigning ignorance and making the Qunari believe they have the upper hand while we feed them false info and have their Southern spies rooted out et al. In other words, I wanted to play the "idiot" the Qun thinks they can use to enter Southern Thedas only to find themselves used in the end. But instead, like DementedSheep said, it was too focused on IB moreso than the politics.  And in the end BW wasn't interested in writing about the politics or allowing the player to role play that way, the IQ who sides with the Qunari is essentially an idiot, unfortunately.  The last time I played I just skipped IB's quest and killed him in Trespasser. At least I get the Chargers.

[Arvaarad]

Bull's quest can be a compelling choice, it doesn't have to be Saving the Chargers vs. Killing the Chargers (You Monster).

There are 100 people on the dreadnought. That count is confirmed by a codex in Trespasser.

Those people are peons. They're not Qunari leaders. They're not the ones plotting an invasion of southern Thedas. They got assigned to their jobs whether they wanted them or not.

What's more, at the time of the quest, they're helping the Inquisition. Sure, they might later be ordered to turn against the Inquisition, but part of being honorable is not judging people before they've acted. Preemptively punishing people is not generally considered a moral high ground. Besides, if they're truly that untrustworthy, it doesn't make sense to even accept the quest. By accepting the quest, I'm promising that I'll give them the ground support they need.

In this particular case, Bull's friends are in danger, so it's understandable for an Inquisitor to choose to sacrifice the dreadnought (trading about 15 qunari lives for each Charger). But I question whether it's actually the more moral choice, or if it just feels better because we value friends more than strangers.

[Tidus]

I kill them.. I don't like Qunari anyway and I recruit Bull and his chargers because they are needed. I have no ties to them since they are a band of paid mercenaries and seeing them as a possible enemy I would have no regrets if I had to kill them..

[Catilina]

Well, Fenris does refer to Koslun as "the founder of their religion." I realize he's not Qunari himself, but he does have more of an understanding of them than many other people we've met.

 

Also, religion doesn't necessarily have to refer to worshiping any particular deity.

 

Some definitions of religion include "a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices," and "something one believes in and follows devotedly." The Qun certainly falls under that definition of religion. You can also use it casually to say something like, "John follows <sports team> religiously," and so on.

 

It's not really akin to Communism in that people don't "believe" in Communism in the same way the Qun is believed in. Communism is a structured ordering of society. But the Qun is a way of thinking and being that I don't think has any parallels in the real world.

(Parallel: reeducation camps.

So many people "believed" in the communism. Their thinking was not as normal people's thinking. How many people have betrayed his brother, his father / mother, because he believed in the system! It was fanatic belief. We can say: if the qun are religion, the communism is religion too. [But I think, it's both are only philosophy.])