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Dalish Elves & The Creators


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#1
Bayonet Hipshot

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There is something that I been wondering about Dalish Elves and their legend regarding the Creators. Obviously we now know it is inaccurate but something is truly odd with it.

 

According to Dalish legends, the Creators were tricked by Fen'Harel who then locked the Creators away in the Beyond. The Dalish follow up this line of thought with the notion that if the Dalish pray to the Creators, they would one day return back to the Elvhen.

 

Is it just me or does that not make any sense ? I mean Fen Harel tricked the Creators and locked them away in the Beyond. How exactly does praying to them help ? They are not among the Elvhen to receive their prayers, they are somewhere else, somewhere far away, in another dimension, tricked away and absent. Shouldn't the Dalish be seeking Fen'Harel out and force him to bring the Creators back or try to learn what Fen'Harel actually did and undo it or seek the Creators in the Beyond themselves with the help of their mages ? However, why are they praying ? That's not exactly the logical thing to do.

 

Now some of you will bring up the Chantry with its own "Maker will return to us" rhetoric as well but according to Chantry legend, the Maker was not tricked away to some corner of the Fade. He just stopped giving a f*ck about the world. So the notion of praying and spreading the Chant to make him give a f*ck again sort of makes sense.

 

I just find it weird that no Dalish Elf has raised this point among their people:- That if they truly want the Creators to return they should try to find the Creators themselves in the Beyond or find Fen'Harel and force him to do it, praying is not going to accomplish much.



#2
Gervaise

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This is something that has bothered me about their teaching since DAO.   However, the belief is that when they remember what it is to be true elves their gods will return to them.   It is not through prayers but through earning their recognition by their actions and behaviour.    This seemed odd considering they also taught that these gods had been shut away and were unable to act.    What I now believe is that we have some strands of misremembered history here and to some extent they had remembered it back to front, so when their gods return to them, they will remember what it is to be true elves.   They also believed the Fade was a holy place, once home to their gods and that Fen'Harel continued to prowl the Fade, feasting on souls of the dead and guarding the prison of the gods, which was the Eternal City at its heart. This would then fit with what we now know about the Veil and the effect it had on the ancient elves.     

 

Clearly the actions of Fen'Harel were devastating on the elves but may be even the most ardent followers of the Evanuris had to acknowledge that they couldn't restore their gods without him.   Killing Fen'Harel would have left their gods in limbo forever.   Also he must have left his own followers to act on his behalf and to guard his body whilst he was in uthenera.   He may even have promised that once he recovered his power he would put things back to what they had been before.     So down the years these various strands of belief were handed on.   The majority of elves that were enslaved by Tevinter came from Arlathan Forest.    We still do not know the exact nature of this community.   Given its extreme hostility to intruders it would seem it was a remnant of the civilisation, much as the Temple of Mythal in the Arbor Wilds.    Since the Dalish had such a benign view of the Creators, it is likely that the Arlathan community were descendants of the supporters of the Evanuris.   Likely there were elders who slept in uthenera, plus those born after the Veil was raised who tended to their needs.   For all we know, these elders were slumbering to build up their strength for push to restore their gods, charging up their foci for use in destroying the Veil and freeing their gods.    Tevinter destroying the place may have had the bonus of thwarting these plans.   At some point foci came into the possession of ancient Magisters because Dorian saw pictures of them in the archives.    Personally I'd put their acquisition much further back, shortly after the raising of the Veil rather than at the destruction of Arlathan, since it was meant to have been submerged, making recovery of artefacts somewhat difficult, but the possibility is there.

 

The Dalish fixation with recovering their lore and culture probably does stem from the inhabitants of Arlathan being aware of the need for ancient magical expertise if they were ever going to get their gods back.   If they remembered what it was to be true elves, they would likely have that expertise and the knowledge of what they needed to do, so their belief system isn't quite as illogical as it first appears.    In any case, it is clear that the vagueness of Dalish knowledge of the past is more about the writers wanting to keep things hidden rather than a coherent set of beliefs.   Why don't the Dalish know more about their history than they do?   Because the writers chose to make it that way.    It is odd how we can stumble around the Dales for a few years and uncover no end of ancient ruins, artefacts and pieces of lore, yet the Dalish were actually there for some 250 years without finding out any of it for themselves.

 

Which brings me on to a question of my own.   Why were the ancient elves of the Arbor Wilds so hostile towards the modern elves?    Our Dalish Inquisitor is quite right, they could have learned so much from them.    They might not consider them their People but who do they think they descended from?     Why were Abelas and co simply guarding a Well that they never intended letting anyone use and then suddenly decide to relinquish it because we "played nice".    What was their purpose in remaining there?   One of the ancient texts that we can only read if we drink from the Well says:  "We must prepare for those who cast Mythal down."    I originally thought this related to an earlier period but what if they also had the shared belief that eventually the Evanuris would return.    Mind you, I thought it odd that the Creators would still be honoured in her temple if they had been responsible for her death, so once again the writers were withholding information from us for plot purposes.    I also found it annoying that we were never allowed to ask Abelas the pertinent question: "Who killed her?"   Even if he had replied: "I don't know", that would be something but he knows it wasn't Fen'Harel, so how does he know?   Then after millennia of guarding the Well, the Temple and even the surrounding forest from intruders, they simply up and leave.   Makes no sense to me unless of course Abelas really did recognise who Solas was.    In which case that last exchange between them was likely a coded message: the time has come, the ones who cast Mythal down are about to return.  (Bear in mind that at this point Solas didn't know his orb was going to be destroyed in the final battle with Corypheus and if it hadn't he would have proceeded with his original plan).

 

Of course the above ideas only work if Solas was in your party and you did the rituals that prevented hostilities.    I've no idea why Abelas should have relinquished the Well and left the Temple if Solas was not there to encourage him to do so.   Also, apart from one reference in the Temple and another in JoH, the Forgotten Ones are pretty much overlooked.    They were the Dalish bad guys and said to be pally with Fen'Harel but ultimately betrayed by him as well, yet the reference said they dwelt in the Void and you seemingly had to go there to find them.   Presumably that is where they are locked away but they did not regard themselves as the same as the Creators and thus presumably were not seen as Evanuris.    The Evanuris didn't see Fen'Harel as a friend (the Dalish certainly got that wrong, only Mythal seems to have been friends with him), were clearly at odds with the Forgotten Ones, but where did the story come from that Fen'Harel was trusted by both and able to act as mediator between them?


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#3
Bayonet Hipshot

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Why were the ancient elves of the Arbor Wilds so hostile towards the modern elves? 

 

The same reason Thalmor we see in Skyrim dislike the Dunmer and look down on the Bosmer - Because they are not true Elves or lesser Elves in Thalmor's eyes. Its the same reason Thalmor in Skyrim dislike Altmer like Faralda - She is not a true Altmer in their eyes because she does not support the notions of Altmer supremacy.

 

It is not very different from different Human groups, either due to nationality or race or ethnicity or religion or even generation gaps, being hostile to Humans that are different than them. This concept is called the Othering.

 

Personally, I like it that they are hostile. Many living creatures in real life, real life Humans included, are tribalistic creatures. Ascribing tribalism to Elves makes them feel more realistic and grounded, especially since Elves were supposed to be in tune with nature and nature is full of tribalistic animals like wolves with their wolf packs.

 

The Ancient Elves are people from a different world, a different time period and different values compared to the Dalish Elves. They also know and remember what it was like to actually be immortal, to actually be powerful, to actually be grandiose, and what have you whereas Modern Elves have to rely on myths, fables and legends. Hence the hostility and othering by the Ancient Elves towards the Dalish Elves.


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#4
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Yeah, it was a bit weird...though in the end it doesn't matter that much. Their whole beliefs were a distorted version of the truth. 



#5
Gervaise

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I get the Abelas elves being hostile if they have a reason to be there and are just waiting for that time.    What seemed odd was that they wait all that time, guarding against all comers and for what?    The Inquisitor dances around on a few pretty tiles, agrees to work with them and suddenly that is the end of their guardianship.     Who were they holding the Well for?   Why is it no longer necessary to hold it?    Why are Abelas' choices to either destroy the Well or let total strangers drink from it that in most cases are not even remotely related to them?   If they were keeping the Well all this time, it must have been for a reason.  Who were they keeping it for? 

 

What was necessary to trigger the guardians awake?    I realise invading armies would do the trick but what about earlier Dalish investigating the southern reaches of the Dales?    Would an individual just entering the forest trigger a response?  Actually judging by what happened up in Arlathan Forest that would seem to be the case.   No question of compromise up there.   Everyone who entered the forest ended up dead or simply disappeared (which amounts to the same thing).    Clearly whatever was hidden in Arlathan was considered so important it shouldn't be surrendered to anyone.

 

For several thousand years it would seem the same applied to the Temple of Mythal and then all of a sudden it doesn't.


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#6
Xerrai

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The same reason Thalmor we see in Skyrim dislike the Dunmer and look down on the Bosmer - Because they are not true Elves or lesser Elves in Thalmor's eyes. Its the same reason Thalmor in Skyrim dislike Altmer like Faralda - She is not a true Altmer in their eyes because she does not support the notions of Altmer supremacy.

 

It is not very different from different Human groups, either due to nationality or race or ethnicity or religion or even generation gaps, being hostile to Humans that are different than them. This concept is called the Othering.

 

Personally, I like it that they are hostile. Many living creatures in real life, real life Humans included, are tribalistic creatures. Ascribing tribalism to Elves makes them feel more realistic and grounded, especially since Elves were supposed to be in tune with nature and nature is full of tribalistic animals like wolves with their wolf packs.

 

The Ancient Elves are people from a different world, a different time period and different values compared to the Dalish Elves. They also know and remember what it was like to actually be immortal, to actually be powerful, to actually be grandiose, and what have you whereas Modern Elves have to rely on myths, fables and legends. Hence the hostility and othering by the Ancient Elves towards the Dalish Elves.

While this very well could be the case, or even part of the reason, it is very possible that the main reason is a lot simpler:

They were under orders to "protect the temple". To them this translated as killing all intruders.

 

And it is important to remember that apart from Abelas, the other Sentinels were implied to be forgetting of their ancient heritage. It could very well be that they do not remember what their ancient cities looked like, or how Mythal acted, or that they are/were immortal. If the notes are to be believed, Abelas struggles to teach them what they had forgotten.

 

It seems to me they are an ancient Order being constantly told of their importance to preserving their world by way of some leader's teachings. Then they wallow in their isolation to the point where they develop an us-them mentality.


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#7
Xerrai

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I get the Abelas elves being hostile if they have a reason to be there and are just waiting for that time.    What seemed odd was that they wait all that time, guarding against all comers and for what?    The Inquisitor dances around on a few pretty tiles, agrees to work with them and suddenly that is the end of their guardianship.     Who were they holding the Well for?   Why is it no longer necessary to hold it?    Why are Abelas' choices to either destroy the Well or let total strangers drink from it that in most cases are not even remotely related to them?   If they were keeping the Well all this time, it must have been for a reason.  Who were they keeping it for? 

Every answer given is up to speculation. But if the lone codex entry (jesus, why was that the only codex entry of note? I hate relying on just one!) is worth anything, they were keeping it for no other reason than "it was their duty". They clung to it because it was an important cultural symbol for them--one of the few things they could preserve.

 

The words that really stick out for me are these:

"I will teach them. They must serve. We must prepare for those who cast Mythal down"

 

It is heavily implied that the author of this codex entry was Abelas. Or Abelas before he took on his name as Abelas. But it could very well be from a time prior to Abelas's leadership, even though it was definitely after Mythal was killed...

 

Ugh....I hate that that is the only journal-like codex entry on how a (possible) Sentinel elve's thoughts.



#8
Ghost Gal

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No crazier than the Andrastian human belief that the Maker was so angered over Andraste's death that He abandoned them all and won't return until they spread the Chant of Light to the four corners of the world; i.e. they kiss his butt hard enough that his massive ego is be appeased and He deignd from on high to grace them with His presence again.

 

Yet, the only humans responsible for Andraste's death were Tevinter soldiers (And the ones who ticked him off before that were the Tevinter Magisters who cracked the Golden City.) Shouldn't He have just directed His rage at Tevinter? Wiped them out and then gotten over it? But no, he'll punish and abandon all of humanity for the actions of a few jerks. (First with darkspawn, then abandoning the whole mortal world.)

 

Doesn't that make the worship of the Maker completely pointless since he abandoned mortals and isn't answering any prayers? I know DAI retconned it so that now suddenly He's a loving, helpful god, but DAO and DA2 made it clear most humans prayed to Him despite believing that He flat-out abandoned them and wasn't coming back until they met impossibly high criteria far in the future. Various Andrastian human characters would say things like, "I'll pray to the Maker," "and "The Maker knows my sins and will forgive me," and I'm just like, "SINCE WHEN? By your own dogma, the Maker doesn't care about you, isn't paying attention to mortal affairs, and isn't helping any of you out. Praying to Him is pointless!"

 

 

At least the elven religion has the benefit of believing that their gods want to help them, want to be involved in their lives, but have been prevented from helping them thanks to being locked away. The whole "locked away" thing is also half-remembered history from when Fen'Harel the freedom fighter sealed them away following the civil war (but since this left the elves vulnerable to being enslaved by Tevinter, they're retroactively not fond of this idea), and it's also to explain why their gods didn't help them when magisters were rounding them up. Essentially, "Why didn't our gods help us or answer our prayers when humans came for us?" "It's because Fen'Harel sealed them away!" The oral tradition muddled the true story like a game of telephone and became a scapegoat for their terrible lot all in one.

 

 

I think the human religion makes just as little sense, and probably has less reason to pray to their god since the god is said to flat out not care about and abandon them; but sure, let's pick at the elven religion alone.



#9
Gervaise

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Those were the words that particularly resonated with me too.   Which is why I was wondering if "those who cast Mythal down" have already been and gone or he was referring to the return of the Evanuris.   If the latter, then the Well of Sorrows and who actually drank from it could have great significance because the knowledge of how to deal with them might be contained in those memories.   Mind you they clearly are as obtuse as Morrigan and Solas when it comes to revealing important information.   You can run around all those areas in Trespasser and confront Solas at the end and the best the spirits can come up with is one phrase to stop another set of spirits from attacking you.  

 

Picking on the elven religion would appear to be the aim of the writers.   Yet despite all the evidence to repudiate it, the Chantry is sacrosanct because apparently it is such a unifying force in the world.   Thanks to the writers my elf characters have no real gods to believe in any more and nothing to replace them with because I utterly refuse to believe in the Maker as presented or the Chantry as the organisation who represents him or Andraste.   It has come across to me as an entire fabrication on the part of Drakon and the first Divine, putting in and taking out portions of the Chant as suited to political whim and with members of the clergy willing to lie through their teeth about actual events in order to reassure the faithful and maintain the status quo.


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#10
LobselVith8

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I get the Abelas elves being hostile if they have a reason to be there and are just waiting for that time.    What seemed odd was that they wait all that time, guarding against all comers and for what?    The Inquisitor dances around on a few pretty tiles, agrees to work with them and suddenly that is the end of their guardianship.     Who were they holding the Well for?   Why is it no longer necessary to hold it?    Why are Abelas' choices to either destroy the Well or let total strangers drink from it that in most cases are not even remotely related to them?   If they were keeping the Well all this time, it must have been for a reason.  Who were they keeping it for? 

 

What was necessary to trigger the guardians awake?    I realise invading armies would do the trick but what about earlier Dalish investigating the southern reaches of the Dales?    Would an individual just entering the forest trigger a response?  Actually judging by what happened up in Arlathan Forest that would seem to be the case.   No question of compromise up there.   Everyone who entered the forest ended up dead or simply disappeared (which amounts to the same thing).    Clearly whatever was hidden in Arlathan was considered so important it shouldn't be surrendered to anyone.

 

For several thousand years it would seem the same applied to the Temple of Mythal and then all of a sudden it doesn't.

 

I was also mystified as to why Abelas calls everyone 'shemlen', which is elven for human - even a dwarven Inquisitor, despite the fact that dwarves are called durgen’len in elven, and Solas uses the Common Tongue equivalent of the translation in his conversations with Varric. Then again, it might just be an issue of most of the quest treating your character as though he or she was actually human (like when Lavellan acts as though he or she doesn't know who Mythal is).



#11
Jedi Master of Orion

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There is something that I been wondering about Dalish Elves and their legend regarding the Creators. Obviously we now know it is inaccurate but something is truly odd with it.

 

According to Dalish legends, the Creators were tricked by Fen'Harel who then locked the Creators away in the Beyond. The Dalish follow up this line of thought with the notion that if the Dalish pray to the Creators, they would one day return back to the Elvhen.

 

Is it just me or does that not make any sense ? I mean Fen Harel tricked the Creators and locked them away in the Beyond. How exactly does praying to them help ? They are not among the Elvhen to receive their prayers, they are somewhere else, somewhere far away, in another dimension, tricked away and absent. Shouldn't the Dalish be seeking Fen'Harel out and force him to bring the Creators back or try to learn what Fen'Harel actually did and undo it or seek the Creators in the Beyond themselves with the help of their mages ? However, why are they praying ? That's not exactly the logical thing to do.

 

Now some of you will bring up the Chantry with its own "Maker will return to us" rhetoric as well but according to Chantry legend, the Maker was not tricked away to some corner of the Fade. He just stopped giving a f*ck about the world. So the notion of praying and spreading the Chant to make him give a f*ck again sort of makes sense.

 

I just find it weird that no Dalish Elf has raised this point among their people:- That if they truly want the Creators to return they should try to find the Creators themselves in the Beyond or find Fen'Harel and force him to do it, praying is not going to accomplish much.

 

I was going to mention in the other thread, but the discussion moved away quickly. It could just simply the a mixup on the writers part, frankly. Either that or perhaps there are multiple perspectives on the question of whether the Creators would ever return. 

 

 

I was also mystified as to why Abelas calls everyone 'shemlen', which is elven for human - even a dwarven Inquisitor, despite the fact that dwarves are called durga'len in elven, and Solas uses the Common Tongue equivalent of the translation in his conversations with Varric. Then again, it might just be an issue of most of the quest treating your character as though he or she was actually human (like when Lavellan acts as though he or she doesn't know who Mythal is).

 

It's elven for Quick Ones or Quick Children. He considers any Inquisitors to be shemlen because they live short mortal lives. I haven't reached the Temple of Mythal on my elven Inquisitor yet, but I believe Abelas specifically tells Lavellan that they are not elvhen, just a shemlen.

 

Doesn't that make the worship of the Maker completely pointless since he abandoned mortals and isn't answering any prayers? I know DAI retconned it so that now suddenly He's a loving, helpful god, but DAO and DA2 made it clear most humans prayed to Him despite believing that He flat-out abandoned them and wasn't coming back until they met impossibly high criteria far in the future. Various Andrastian human characters would say things like, "I'll pray to the Maker," "and "The Maker knows my sins and will forgive me," and I'm just like, "SINCE WHEN? By your own dogma, the Maker doesn't care about you, isn't paying attention to mortal affairs, and isn't helping any of you out. Praying to Him is pointless!"

 

 

At least the elven religion has the benefit of believing that their gods want to help them, want to be involved in their lives, but have been prevented from helping them thanks to being locked away. The whole "locked away" thing is also half-remembered history from when Fen'Harel the freedom fighter sealed them away following the civil war (but since this left the elves vulnerable to being enslaved by Tevinter, they're retroactively not fond of this idea), and it's also to explain why their gods didn't help them when magisters were rounding them up. Essentially, "Why didn't our gods help us or answer our prayers when humans came for us?" "It's because Fen'Harel sealed them away!" The oral tradition muddled the true story like a game of telephone and became a scapegoat for their terrible lot all in one.

 

 

I think the human religion makes just as little sense, and probably has less reason to pray to their god since the god is said to flat out not care about and abandon them; but sure, let's pick at the elven religion alone.

 

Since always. People always prayed to the Maker even in DAO. There was no retcon. WoT says "Until his return,  the faithful believe, the Maker watches, not so much as an absent god, but as a patient observer. They do not believe he will perform miracles on their behalf. But he will shed a tear for the suffering of those that do not deserve it."


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#12
JessicaLGraff_02

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I was also mystified as to why Abelas calls everyone 'shemlen', which is elven for human - even a dwarven Inquisitor, despite the fact that dwarves are called durga'len in elven, and Solas uses the Common Tongue equivalent of the translation in his conversations with Varric. Then again, it might just be an issue of most of the quest treating your character as though he or she was actually human (like when Lavellan acts as though he or she doesn't know who Mythal is).

 

I believe "Shemlen" means "Quick Children." I know that originally it was the term used for the human race, but it looks to me like it can be used for any race that isn't immortal.



#13
Medhia_Nox

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I want so badly for - "reasons" - for Solas/Fen'Harel to be a wolf in sheeps clothing (pun intended) trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the elves (oh, stahp!) by getting them to drop the Veil - kill the Evanuris who are actually good - and reign supreme AS "the Maker". 

 

We know belief creates things on Thedas - belief unfiltered by the Veil might be what gave the Evanuris their power to begin with.  Solas could just easily become the sole god of the elves and gain even more power by killing the Evanuris.

 

PERHAPS (and I doubt it - Bioware doesn't seem this subtle) - the myth is actually knowledge of how to save the elven people from Solas/Fen'Harel.  Perhaps it was a warning to NOT kill the Evanuris... but to try to release them to be freed from Fen'Harel's schemes. 

 

No... I don't believe it will go down that way... but I'd like it to. 



#14
Wulfram

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If you consider that the ancient elves were deeply tied to the fade, its reasonable that they should hold that belief and faith can have powerful effects.

Also, I think people just quite like to have someone to pray to. I've always felt it odd how little both Dalish and Andrastean beliefs actually offer the worshipper.

#15
LobselVith8

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It's elven for Quick Ones or Quick Children. He considers any Inquisitors to be shemlen because they live short mortal lives. I haven't reached the Temple of Mythal on my elven Inquisitor yet, but I believe Abelas specifically tells Lavellan that they are not elvhen, just a shemlen.

 

Which makes no sense because, as I mentioned previously, the elves also had a name for the dwarves - durgen’len (the Children of the Stone) - and Abelas doesn't use that term, either, in conversation with a dwarven Inquisitor. Using the elven term for 'human' for everyone, including a dwarf (when they have an actual elven term), just seems like the developers made yet another mistake (and this quest is fill of mistakes where it treats Lavellan as an Andrastian human).

 

I believe "Shemlen" means "Quick Children." I know it was the original term for the human race, but it looks like it can be used for any race that isn't immortal.

 

Except, if that was the case, why bother to give the dwarves their own name (and, as I pointed out earlier, Solas does use the Common Tongue equivalent of that name in conversation with Varric)? We really shouldn't have to fanwank expanations to explain errors like this.



#16
Wulfram

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Abelas might consider modern Dwarves to be no more true Dwarves than modern Elves are true Elves.
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#17
Jedi Master of Orion

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It's possible that Abelas word for dwarves would similarly only apply to the dwarves of his day, like they were in the Titan's memories before they were "sundered." It's possible the word Durgen'len originated after the fall of the Elvhenan. It's also possible that it's just an oversight. But if it is an oversight, it would only apply to dwarves and not elves. Elves are explicitly told they are shemlen.



#18
Captain Wiseass

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Abelas is from a different time, far enough back that the elven he spoke might as well be another language altogether. Usage has evolved since the Fall to the point where "shemlen" means humans and "durgen'len" means dwarves, but it wasn't necessarily so in his time.


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#19
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Which makes no sense because, as I mentioned previously, the elves also had a name for the dwarves - durgen’len (the Children of the Stone) - and Abelas doesn't use that term, either, in conversation with a dwarven Inquisitor. Using the elven term for 'human' for everyone, including a dwarf (when they have an actual elven term), just seems like the developers made yet another mistake (and this quest is fill of mistakes where it treats Lavellan as an Andrastian human).

 

 

Except, if that was the case, why bother to give the dwarves their own name (and, as I pointed out earlier, Solas does use the Common Tongue equivalent of that name in conversation with Varric)? We really shouldn't have to fanwank expanations to explain errors like this.

I don't deny the change of Bioware screwing up that quest, but it could be the elvhen term for dwarves was created later. Solas decided to conform in using it, and Alebas might not. 

Or it can be as Wulfram said. Or maybe shemlen can be used as an insult to refer to the non-immortal races. The term itself doesn't mean only humans, so it can be used to call dwarves, if you want to insult them. 



#20
LobselVith8

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Abelas might consider modern Dwarves to be no more true Dwarves than modern Elves are true Elves.

 

Under that assumption, we would have to figure that Abelas is up to date on dwarven events, and that he felt strongly enough about the dwarves to think that any modern dwarf is 'less' than his or her ancestors were. It just comes across as rather lazy for him to pretty much call any Inquisitor a "human".

 

Abelas is from a different time, far enough back that the elven he spoke might as well be another language altogether. Usage has evolved since the Fall to the point where "shemlen" means humans and "durgen'len" means dwarves, but it wasn't necessarily so in his time.

 

Except Solas also uses the term as well - he simply uses the actual Common Tongue translation of the term instead of using the elven equivalent (in his conversations with Varric).​



#21
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Under that assumption, we would have to figure that Abelas is up to date on dwarven events, and that he felt strongly enough about the dwarves to think that any modern dwarf is 'less' than his or her ancestors were. It just comes across as rather lazy for him to pretty much call any Inquisitor a "human".

 

 

Except Solas also uses the term as well - he simply uses the actual Common Tongue translation of the term instead of using the elven equivalent (in his conversations with Varric).​

Solas using the term doesn't mean Abelas has to.

Again, I wouldn't discount the possibility of Bioware screwing things up, but I don't see why Abelas couldn't use the term to insult non-humans Wardens, elves included.



#22
Wulfram

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Under that assumption, we would have to figure that Abelas is up to date on dwarven events, and that he felt strongly enough about the dwarves to think that any modern dwarf is 'less' than his or her ancestors were. It just comes across as rather lazy for him to pretty much call any Inquisitor a "human".


He doesn't need to be up to date on dwarven events if the difference between a modern Dwarf and an ancient Dwarf is obvious to him. And he doesn't need to have a strong opinion on dwarves, he only needs to place them in a different category - "mortal".
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#23
LobselVith8

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Solas using the term doesn't mean Abelas has to.

Again, I wouldn't discount the possibility of Bioware screwing things up, but I don't see why Abelas couldn't use the term to insult non-humans Wardens, elves included.

 

Well, it does seem like a peculiar way to insult someone - "I'm going to insult you by calling you human". Given how many times Lavellan 'forgets' he's a Dalish during the quest, it simply comes across like yet another mistake.



#24
The Elder King

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Well, it does seem like a peculiar way to insult someone - "I'm going to insult you by calling you human". Given how many times Lavellan 'forgets' he's a Dalish during the quest, it simply comes across like yet another mistake.

Shemlen literally means 'quick children'. The fact that it's used to refer to humans doesn't mean it' can't be used to refer to all the other non-immortal races, if you wish to do so. The term is already used in Thedas by dalish in a derogatory mean towards humans. 

We have no clue if ancient elves used to refer to dwarves as 'shemlen' if they wanted to insult them.



#25
LobselVith8

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Shemlen literally means 'quick children'. The fact that it's used to refer to humans doesn't mean it' can't be used to refer to all the other non-immortal races, if you wish to do so. The term is already used in Thedas by dalish in a derogatory mean towards humans. 

We have no clue if ancient elves used to refer to dwarves as 'shemlen' if they wanted to insult them.

 

In terms of a derogatory term, that's actually "shem", not shemlen; shemlen is used blankly as "human" by the Dalish in the same way they use "Beyond" for Fade. Andraste is even referred to as the 'shemlen prophet', and the Dalish never denigrate her as a military leader in the account when the term is utilized.