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[The Elder King]

In terms of a derogatory term, that's actually "shem", not shemlen; shemlen is used blankly as "human" by the Dalish in the same way they use "Beyond" for Fade. Andraste is even referred to as the 'shemlen prophet', and the Dalish never denigrate her as a military leader in the account when the term is utilized.

The fact that the dalish or current elves might not (always) use it as an insult doesn't mean the ancient elves share the same opinion. The very meaning of the world, which the ancient elves created, has a derogatory meaning (expecially considering what we now know about their society).

I just don't see it as out of character for Alebas to call them like this, though I don't deny the possibility that Bioware writers forgot about the meaning of the world, or that it was based on earlier scripts when the PC was human only and they didn't think about it when they did the VA work. 

[LobselVith8]

The fact that the dalish or current elves might not (always) use it as an insult doesn't mean the ancient elves share the same opinion. The very meaning of the world, which the ancient elves created, has a derogatory meaning (expecially considering what we now know about their society).

I just don't see it as out of character for Alebas to call them like this, though I don't deny the possibility that Bioware writers forgot about the meaning of the world, or that it was based on earlier scripts when the PC was human only and they didn't think about it when they did the VA work. 

 

My point was simply how the Dalish use it in a modern respect - it's fairly neutral, and the reason why a derogatory slang version of the word exists. I suppose, given all the other errors that already exist in the quest (with Lavellan completely forgetting his elven heritage and having Andrastian human dialogue options multiple times) it just comes across as the "human only" scene to me.

[Captain Wiseass]

"Shem" is a singular noun; "shemlen" is a plural noun or an adjective. So if Abelas is using "shemlen," he's not just addressing the Inquisitor, but the entire party (or maybe the Inquisition as a whole).

 

And Abelas isn't Dalish, so his use of the term wouldn't conform to Dalish norms. Again, he's from another time and culture entirely.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Abelas is not Dalish. The word can have a different context for him. A lot of that quest is bugged or has mistakes for elf Inquisitors, but being called a shemlen is not one of them. There is Lavellan specific content with that.

Edit: Although, shemlen is a singular noun. Shem is slang.

[The Elder King]

My point was simply how the Dalish use it in a modern respect - it's fairly neutral, and the reason why a derogatory slang version of the word exists. I suppose, given all the other errors that already exist in the quest (with Lavellan completely forgetting his elven heritage and having Andrastian human dialogue options multiple times) it just comes across as the "human only" scene to me.

I do think there's a case for Bioware making mistakes. I just think it's not necessary it went that way.

[LobselVith8]

I do think there's a case for Bioware making mistakes. I just think it's not necessary it went that way.

 

I suppose I also see it as the issue of the human-centric feel that Inquisition has, likely because it was originally meant to be "human only" (like with Dorian's first Skyhold conversation with you, where you're treated as if you're an Andrastian human, and it takes the second separate conversation for him to realize you're Dalish). Take, for example, the Dales - TME reads that it has a predominantly elven population, and Asunder reads that humans are leaving the Dales en mass, but in Inquisition all almost the available quests are human-centric. Despite Ferelden and Orlais already having human-centric quests. It also robs us of any insight into the mindset and culture of the elves living in the Dales - the members of the elven rebellion and the denizens who are just trying to survive.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think if there is a contradiction between the books and games, the fault is probably in the books. They are the supplementary material, the game is the primary story.

[The Elder King]

I think if there is a contradiction between the books and games, the fault is probably in the books. They are the supplementary material, the game is the primary story.

I don't think it's exactly a contradiction, it's more a human focus in a region where they might've written more quests related to elves.

[LobselVith8]

I think if there is a contradiction between the books and games, the fault is probably in the books. They are the supplementary material, the game is the primary story.

 

I see the almost absence of the elven perspective in the Dales as a serious fault; Thedas is more than just Andrastian humans and their point of view. There's little reason to focus on Andrastian humans in the Dales when you already focus on them, almost exclusively, in Ferelden and Orlais.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

My point was that since the population of the Dales appears mostly human in the game, line in TME about the Dales being mostly elves is either a mistake or applies only to Halamshiral. The book does mention a few other such things that aren't depicted as true in Inquisition.

[LobselVith8]

My point was that since the population of the Dales appears mostly human in the game, line in TME about the Dales being mostly elves is either a mistake or applies only to Halamshiral. The book does mention a few other such things that aren't depicted as true in Inquisition.

 

Except Asunder also notes that humans are leaving the Dales en mass, so you can hardly credit that to TME alone. The game certainly focuses on elven artifacts and lore, but it doesn't really explore the elven perspective at all -  even when it has multiple chances to do so in the Dales. I also find Briala's whitewashing to be problematic as well (although that's also not an isolated incident with Dragon Age).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

That part actually is depicted in the game, we see lots of deserted or destroyed settlements in the Dales provinces.

[LobselVith8]

That part actually is depicted in the game, we see lots of deserted or destroyed settlements in the Dales provinces.

 

With the issue still being that, despite humans leaving the Dales en mass, we are limited to the human POV and human quests (even though there's no shortage of this in both Ferelden and Orlais respectively). The problem is that the game is almost entirely ignoring the existence of Andrastian elves in the Dales, the ongoing elven rebellion that Briala is leading to emancipate her people, and even the arlathvenn that was supposed to take place in the Dales around this time with the clans. There's really no reason to marginalize the elven POV in the Dales, especially when TME adds that it's supposed to have a high elven population - that's my point. Even if you ignore TME and Asunder, there's still no reason to marginalize the elves in the Dales.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

With the issue still being that, despite humans leaving the Dales en mass, we are limited to the human POV and human quests (even though there's no shortage of this in both Ferelden and Orlais respectively). The problem is that the game is almost entirely ignoring the existence of Andrastian elves in the Dales, the ongoing elven rebellion that Briala is leading to emancipate her people, and even the arlathvenn that was supposed to take place in the Dales around this time with the clans. There's really no reason to marginalize the elven POV in the Dales, especially when TME adds that it's supposed to have a high elven population - that's my point. Even if you ignore TME and Asunder, there's still no reason to marginalize the elves in the Dales.

 

Well Briala doesn't exactly have a rebellion in that there's an armed uprising by a third faction in the Orlesian Civil War, she just has a small network of spies and saboteurs that she uses to undermine both sides and prolong the conflict. 

 

But yes, I do wish the elven presence had been more than just like 5 guys in a cave, offering a handful of restocking and fetch quests. A massive gathering of very different clans from around the world would have been much more interesting story content and probably more worthy of that little flag on the Inquisition's banners.

[LobselVith8]

Well Briala doesn't exactly have a rebellion in that there's an armed uprising by a third faction in the Orlesian Civil War, she just has a small network of spies and saboteurs that she uses to undermine both sides and prolong the conflict. 

 

We don't know exactly how many elves comprise her group, which is sadly due to Inquisition not really delving into her story at all (even the massacre of the elves in Halamshiral is barely mentioned).

 

But yes, I do wish the elven presence had been more than just like 5 guys in a cave, offering a handful of restocking and fetch quests. A massive gathering of very different clans from around the world would have been much more interesting story content and probably more worthy of that little flag on the Inquisition's banners.

 

Yeah, it's unfortunate. The marginalization of the elven perspective isn't isolated to the Dales or Inquisition as a whole. Look at the scene where Hawke arrives at the camp for Clan Sabrae - he acts surprised that the Dalish would be wary of him (as if he's from a different planet), and rather than explaining the dangers that the Dalish face because of outsiders (which is the obvious step if the player is new to Dragon Age), it instead denigrates them because they are standoffish to Hawke rather than welcoming. It takes three entire acts to even learn that the clan has been dealing with Andrastian humans threatening them with violence to convert - and that's dialogue you can easily miss.

 

Even Redcliffe taking control of the Hinterlands post-Dalish boon (when the ruler provided the Hinterlands, up to and including the ruins of Ostagar, to the People), effectively taking the land of the Dalish, is pretty much handwaved, even when it could have easily been incorporated when Lavellan heads to the Hinterlands, or in the scenes where Tegan accuses you of being in lands you don't belong (which also makes him come across as entirely hypocritical when he's effectively removed the Dalish from lands that were given to them by the Crown).​

[Jedi Master of Orion]

We still don't know exactly what happened with the Dalish boon. I feel like we'd need more information on exactly when wrong in Ferelden there, and what Tegan, Alistair or Anora's position on it would be.

[Sifr]

Shemlen literally means 'quick children'. The fact that it's used to refer to humans doesn't mean it' can't be used to refer to all the other non-immortal races, if you wish to do so. The term is already used in Thedas by dalish in a derogatory mean towards humans. 

We have no clue if ancient elves used to refer to dwarves as 'shemlen' if they wanted to insult them.

 

I don't think it's meant to be an insult in this context, but more of an Ancient Elven catch-all term for mortals.

 

So while all Durgen'len are Shemlen, not all Shemlen are Durgen'len.

 

Unlike Abelas who cares little for this strange new world post-Veil and Elvhenan, Solas has familiarised himself with the state of affairs in modern Thedas, so understands what the term "Shemlen" has come to mean and that it's now primarily associated with humans.

 

Referring to Varric by that term (even it's technically accurate) would have been a major red flag that something was amiss with him. The codex already has people comment on the strangeness of his seeming fluency in Elven, so misusing such a common term would seem even more off?

[Gervaise]

Okay, let's go over a few issues that have been raised:

 

The number of elves in the Dales.   Most Andrastrian elves are confined to the city in alienages.   They aren't allowed to move around without permission.   In the majority of cities the number of humans is greater than the number of elves.   However, in Halamshiral the opposite was true.   There were more elves than humans and apparently they weren't confined in an alienage, just outside the old city proper.    The reason the uprising was so dangerous was because of the number of elves involved and other elves were ignoring the restrictions and rushing to join them.    The reason the elves were unable to take the city over completely is that on the whole they only had makeshift weapons and armour, whilst the city guard was fully armed.   So the ruler decided to dig in and defend the nobles' area behind the city walls proper, leaving the elves to pretty much run things in their own part of the city.      When Celene decided to put down the rebellion, she marched in, massacred any who tried to stand up to her forces and then burned the rest in their homes.    So at this point there would have been a considerable drop in the number of elves present in the Dales.  Hence not encountering many outside of servants and a few out in the countryside.    Even if they hadn't been burned by Celene, most elves would have been in Halamshiral and other cities and we never visit any of these except a very small section of Val Royeaux.

 

Another fear of Celene in putting down the rebellion was that there were hidden enclaves of Dalish just waiting for the opportunity to rise up and reclaim their homeland.   Briala might have been angry at the reaction of the Keeper to her assumption that the Dalish ought to have helped the city elves but as Celene realised, even if the Dalish want to help, they didn't have the numbers to do so.    Based off what is said in the book I would judge there are probably more elves in the alienage in Val Royeaux (10,000 according to DAO) than in the Dalish clans in the Dales and if they had attempted to aid the rebellion in Halamshiral, they would have been wiped out as well.    The majority of the Dalish actually live outside the Dales, with the biggest concentrations in Ferelden and to a lesser extent the Freemarches.

 

As for Abelas using the word Shemlen to refer to the entire party.   Considering he doesn't even consider the Dalish are his People, it is likely that he looks upon all races as "Shemlen".  Varric or the Inquisitor would be the only dwarves in the party and surface dwarves, so if the dwarves of his time considered that dwarves on the surface were not "Children of the Stone", then possibly Abelas does too.   Hence being lumped with humans and modern elves as Shemlen.    Mind you, I'm surprised he doesn't query the appearance of a qunari Inquisitor, so is this meant to suggest that he knew of their existence or he is simply not that bothered about modern races?    Probably the latter but who knows.

 

In Trespasser the elf in the Deep Roads recalls an old Dalish lullaby that his mother used to sing.  It is said to be about Mythal but the elf notices the possible link with the dwarves in translating it and makes the connection with the statues of Mythal in the Deep Roads.   Clearly the Dalish weren't aware of this link and were just passing down an old song without really knowing its significance.   He even says that his Hahren had told him that they had lost some of the old words from the song.   If that is the case, then the word used "Durgen'lin" (Little stones) probably was originally "Durgen'len" (Little dwarves), giving the clear link and reason why Solas refers to Varric as "child of the stone".    Although, of course, this never seems odd considering the dwarves themselves speak of their connection to the Stone.    Still, I think it is clear that in the time of the ancient elves, the dwarves were referred to as "Children of the Stone", possibly even given that title by Mythal herself, so Abelas would definitely consider that title appropriate if he encountered dwarves underground but, as I say above, probably not when he encounters them on the surface.

[LobselVith8]

Okay, let's go over a few issues that have been raised:

 

The number of elves in the Dales.   Most Andrastrian elves are confined to the city in alienages.   They aren't allowed to move around without permission.   In the majority of cities the number of humans is greater than the number of elves.   However, in Halamshiral the opposite was true.   There were more elves than humans and apparently they weren't confined in an alienage, just outside the old city proper.    The reason the uprising was so dangerous was because of the number of elves involved and other elves were ignoring the restrictions and rushing to join them.    The reason the elves were unable to take the city over completely is that on the whole they only had makeshift weapons and armour, whilst the city guard was fully armed.   So the ruler decided to dig in and defend the nobles' area behind the city walls proper, leaving the elves to pretty much run things in their own part of the city.      When Celene decided to put down the rebellion, she marched in, massacred any who tried to stand up to her forces and then burned the rest in their homes.    So at this point there would have been a considerable drop in the number of elves present in the Dales.  Hence not encountering many outside of servants and a few out in the countryside.    Even if they hadn't been burned by Celene, most elves would have been in Halamshiral and other cities and we never visit any of these except a very small section of Val Royeaux.

 

We also have humans leaving the Dales en mass in Asunder, so the notion of giving us elven content in the Dales could have easily made sense, and yet the developers specifically chose to marginalize the elves by focusing almost exclusively on human-centric quests in the Dales, which I think is an issue. It's a marginalization of the elves in the Dales, and it's not as if we don't already have content about Andrastian humans and Andrastian human perspectives throughout the entirety of Orlais and Ferelden.

 

Another fear of Celene in putting down the rebellion was that there were hidden enclaves of Dalish just waiting for the opportunity to rise up and reclaim their homeland.   Briala might have been angry at the reaction of the Keeper to her assumption that the Dalish ought to have helped the city elves but as Celene realised, even if the Dalish want to help, they didn't have the numbers to do so.    Based off what is said in the book I would judge there are probably more elves in the alienage in Val Royeaux (10,000 according to DAO) than in the Dalish clans in the Dales and if they had attempted to aid the rebellion in Halamshiral, they would have been wiped out as well.    The majority of the Dalish actually live outside the Dales, with the biggest concentrations in Ferelden and to a lesser extent the Freemarches.

 

We also know there was supposed to be a gathering of the clans - the arlathvenn - at the Dales around this time, which would have been a great opportunity to get some insight into different Dalish perspectives, and perhaps give us some pro-Dalish viewpoints to offset the onslaught of negative Dalish commentary that we get from the multitude of Andrastians around us. That wasn't done, either.

 

That's really the heart of the issue I'm getting at - a marginalization of elven content in favor of, yet again, more Andrastian human perspectives. As if that's all that matters, even in the Dales - the elven homeland.

 

As for Abelas using the word Shemlen to refer to the entire party.   Considering he doesn't even consider the Dalish are his People, it is likely that he looks upon all races as "Shemlen".  Varric or the Inquisitor would be the only dwarves in the party and surface dwarves, so if the dwarves of his time considered that dwarves on the surface were not "Children of the Stone", then possibly Abelas does too.   Hence being lumped with humans and modern elves as Shemlen.    Mind you, I'm surprised he doesn't query the appearance of a qunari Inquisitor, so is this meant to suggest that he knew of their existence or he is simply not that bothered about modern races?    Probably the latter but who knows.

 

My issue wasn't that we can't fanwank an explanation as to why he uses the term in a blanket context for any Inquisitor, even a dwarf (given that, as you clearly know, the elves already have an elven name for the dwarves), it's that - in a quest already riddled with seeming errors when it comes to recognizing Lavellan being Dalish, and throughout Inquisition with even remembering the racial aspect of the dwarven and qunari protagonists (i.e. the dwarven Inquisitor's scene with Bianca and lyrium coming to mind, the one that completely ignores his or her background with lyrium) - it comes across as the writers dropping the ball. Lavellan never shows any confusion as to why Abelas is calling him (or her) human, it's never brought up, it's entirely ignored afterward, and despite our ability to easily fanwank a multitude of explanations to explain why he does so, it's actually never addressed in the actual game.

 

How, exactly, am I supposed to infer it's intentional when it comes across like the game is, once again, simply treating me as an Andrastian human as it does multiple times? That's the issue. Never once does the actual game treat it as some revelatory moment that shemlen doesn't actually mean "human" or anything like that. That's why I brought it up. It's still a criticism, and one I feel is part of the overall flaw of this game not giving much credence to providing elven point of view.

[Lunatica]

I get the Abelas elves being hostile if they have a reason to be there and are just waiting for that time.    What seemed odd was that they wait all that time, guarding against all comers and for what?    The Inquisitor dances around on a few pretty tiles, agrees to work with them and suddenly that is the end of their guardianship.     Who were they holding the Well for?   Why is it no longer necessary to hold it?    Why are Abelas' choices to either destroy the Well or let total strangers drink from it that in most cases are not even remotely related to them?   If they were keeping the Well all this time, it must have been for a reason.  Who were they keeping it for? 

 

'Forget this, I'm off to Vegas - you handle the well, person I've just met'..

David Gaider writing of the main plots  tend to disrupt logic in favor of the Morrigan's subplots this was one of his worst traits since DAO.

[Aren]

Those were the words that particularly resonated with me too.   Which is why I was wondering if "those who cast Mythal down" have already been and gone or he was referring to the return of the Evanuris.   If the latter, then the Well of Sorrows and who actually drank from it could have great significance because the knowledge of how to deal with them might be contained in those memories.   Mind you they clearly are as obtuse as Morrigan and Solas when it comes to revealing important information.   You can run around all those areas in Trespasser and confront Solas at the end and the best the spirits can come up with is one phrase to stop another set of spirits from attacking you.  

 

 

The voices are controlled by Mythal they do not possess an autonomy of their own,they speak only when Mythal uses them to contact it's vessel.

[Gervaise]

There I go, playing Devil's Advocate again.   The fact is that it is clear throughout the game that the majority of the dialogue was written for a human protagonist and the race specific elements were last minute additions to make it feel as though the use of different races was recognised. 

 

One glaring example is when Dorian says on the subject of slavery that you probably have no more idea what it is like to be poor than he does.   Perfectly justified to a human Inquisitor since they come from a leading noble family in the Freemarches and even a mage human Inquisitor has probably not known undue hardship considering that the offspring of nobles are treated differently within the Circle system, are far more likely to have been granted privileges and far less likely to have been abused.   To my mind, to make such a statement to a dwarf, a Vashoth or an elf, given their respective backgrounds, makes Dorian appear patronising at best and actually a bit of a jerk. 

 

A similar situation arises when Josephine is complaining how her family are struggling to make ends meet.   You are allowed to point out they are hardly impoverished but again, it does seem rather ridiculous her going on about her brothers working with their bare hands to anyone other than a human noble as they are likely to be the only one to sympathise about them demeaning themselves in this way.   

 

Incidentally, I thought the last Arlathaven took place some time during DA2, based off Fenris' trolling of Merrill about it in MoA.   Whilst this could be as early as 9:32, I think it is more likely that it would have been around 9:34-9:35, which I have assumed is the case when writing my sequel to events, since I have assumed that Lavellan is able to attend a gathering of the clans in the spring/early summer of 9:45.

[LobselVith8]

There I go, playing Devil's Advocate again.   The fact is that it is clear throughout the game that the majority of the dialogue was written for a human protagonist and the race specific elements were last minute additions to make it feel as though the use of different races was recognised. 

 

Maybe that's the issue (and you brought up some good points about how the dialogue is clearly written for a human character in mind). The developers do seem geared toward the human protagonist, which was noticeable even in Origins (like when Mahariel can ask "Who is Shartan?"). Maybe the simple truth of the matter is that the things that the developers are interested in focusing on - Andrastian human society, to the near exclusion of all else - simply isn't what interests me, and so I'm really not the kind of fan they're aiming for.

 

Incidentally, I thought the last Arlathaven took place some time during DA2, based off Fenris' trolling of Merrill about it in MoA.   Whilst this could be as early as 9:32, I think it is more likely that it would have been around 9:34-9:35, which I have assumed is the case when writing my sequel to events, since I have assumed that Lavellan is able to attend a gathering of the clans in the spring/early summer of 9:45.

 

Well, since MoTA was the last DLC, and Fenris says the clans are going to meet in the Dales (which meant it would have taken time to decide on the place, and for the clans to receive word), there was a lot of speculation among fans (before Inquisiton was released) that we would meet the different clans at the arlathaven.

[Gervaise]

Actually Fenris says they are specifically meeting near Halamshiral, which is plainly ridiculous as that lies too far out on the edge of the Dales and too much in the area of human habitation to be a suitable place to assemble.   If any human scouts caught sight of the elves heading to the gathering they would be calling out the Chevaliers in no time because it would appear as though the Dalish were massing to attack.      To be honest I think it highly unlikely they would meet anywhere in Orlesian territory for that very reason.    The logistics of the arlathaven are somewhat difficult to envisage.   They need an area remote enough not to worry the humans, big enough to accommodate a large gathering and yet central enough for all to travel to easily.   Given the Waking Sea lying smack bang across the middle of the area the Dalish are said to roam and the large number of human settlements adjacent to the coast, plus at least some of the various clans will have to cross the sea to get to it, that is going to prove very difficult.     If they don't have a set location that they go to each time, then I assume they agree the next location at the end of the previous arlathaven.   I would imagine they set the date as well.     I decided upon the Planasene Forest for the location of my next arlathaven.   It is a reasonably wild area, probably has plenty of game for the clans to live off while there, is close to the coast for those that need to cross the sea but is also convenient for the clans from the Freemarches, Northern Orlais, Nevarra and Antiva (if the latter are actually interest in the arlathaven any more).  That just leaves the Ferelden and southern Orlesian Dalish to cross the sea, although I envisage they probably leave their clans having a mini gathering in the foothills of the Frostbacks, whilst senior members travel on together to the main event. 

 

I must admit I would have loved it if they had included an arlathaven for us to attend but actually it would only be applicable for an elven Inquisitor to have done so.   Anyone else gate crashing the event would have been very unwelcome and as I have suggested above, the clans travelling to it would need to be very careful not to alert anyone to their presence, so you'd be unlikely to bump into them on their way there either.

[LobselVith8]

 

If they don't have a set location that they go to each time, then I assume they agree the next location at the end of the previous arlathaven.   I would imagine they set the date as well.     I decided upon the Planasene Forest for the location of my next arlathaven.   It is a reasonably wild area, probably has plenty of game for the clans to live off while there, is close to the coast for those that need to cross the sea but is also convenient for the clans from the Freemarches, Northern Orlais, Nevarra and Antiva (if the latter are actually interest in the arlathaven any more).  That just leaves the Ferelden and southern Orlesian Dalish to cross the sea, although I envisage they probably leave their clans having a mini gathering in the foothills of the Frostbacks, whilst senior members travel on together to the main event. 

 

The Planasene Forest is not too close to any major human settlements, so that would be an ideal location. If you don't mind me asking, what is your Lavellan planning on doing at the arlathaven (I'm guessing your character attends)?