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My fears over Bioware's representation of Gay&Bi romances in Andromeda.


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#1
Spirit Keeper

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This is quite long and in-depth so I've included a TL;DR version at the end (though personally I would read the whole thing if you have time, to understand exactly were I am coming from).

So as the title says I am quite worried about how Bioware plans to portray its same sex romance for gay and bi men. While romances have been very varied for other sexualities, the ones for gay&bi men have been very cookie cutter and stereotypical. For example, in Dragon Age: Origins straight women have access to Alistair, a virtuous virgin knight, in Inquisition there was Cullen who was a virtuous virgin knight, Blackwall a...well, maybe too many plot spoilers to explain him and Solas. Kaidan in Mass Effect 1 who has exclusive to women at that point, his dialogue throughout the games implies he was a virgin until Shepard. Compare this to the ones we've been given for gay/bi men. There was Zevran in DA:O, a prostitute assassin. DA2 had Anders, someone who sleeps with a lot of prostitutes, DA:I had Iron Bull who sleeps with everything that moves and Dorian who sleeps around just because.

DA2 had Fenris and he was okay, but so far the only game which actually breaks this mould is Mass Effect 3 were gay/bi men could romance Kaidan or Steve, well done, finally a non-stereotypical romance for non-straight men...oh but then DA:I came out and we were back to only having stereotypes again...never mind. That's not even going over the fact that Cullen was planned to be Bi but was cut out last minute because of time constraints, which means there was a possibility of having a non-promiscuous Bi guy available to men which was dumped. Boy, dat representation.

Now this isn't a problem with Bioware specifically, since all media be it Games, TV, Films etc all have this problem of stereotyping gays as being the same and having the same motivations when it comes to 'relationships' and sex, which is always little more than 'gotta sleep with everyone'. There's a reason that "All Gays Are Promiscuous" is a trope

http://tvtropes.org/...sArePromiscuous

A further example is the Game of Thrones TV show. In the book Loras and Renly were honourable, intelligent people who were commited to eachother. And when BOOK SPOILERS Renly was killed, Loras tried to take revenge by storming Dragonstone and had his face burned. Compare this to the TV show where Renly died and within a few days (maybe a week) Loras is sleeping with a prostitute Olyvar (in the book Olyvar wasn't gay, he's Olyvar Frey and was Roberts Squire). And then Lady Olenna puts in some throwaway line about how Renly "fucked half the stable boys in kings landing".

I don't know why media has such a problem with writing gay and bi characters as varied human beings like in real-life. If you only looked at the media you'd get the impression that all gay people aren't humans like everyone else but strange things which do nothing but be promiscuous.

Now while this is a problem with all media, Bioware makes the claim that it's interested in diversity and representation, I am coming up to my 24th birthday and I haven't slept with anyone, why? Because i'm looking for a partner, i'm looking for commitment and hopefully one day a husband. So Bioware, why am I not being represented, am I unworthy? Why are you constantly reusing the same overdone, typical stereotype of non-straight men every time? Plenty of gay people I talk to feel this way too, my dad's friend's are an interracial gay couple who've been together since they were 20 (they're now mid 60s), we have customers who are a gay couple in their late 30s who've been together since they were 16. Why aren't they being represented, are they also unworthy of having their ideas and views of sex and relationships portrayed? I also know that EA has also received complaints like mine about how (Bioware games in specific) they have been portraying us and i'm also aware what EA's views on homosexuality because of an internal email a friend who worked at EA and briefly tested Andromeda received, which boiled down to "We see gay people as being promiscuous so we're only interested in portraying them that way".

We as people have come along way in recent years, trying to get the world to see homosexuals as just being human like everyone else but only in the last few years has same sex marriage been largely legalised, while many countries still refuse adoption by same sex couples and in many parts of the world you can still be murdered for being gay because of a view that we're deviants, predators and paedophiles. Yet the media STILL isn't interested in showing us to be like everyone else, they're deadest on showing us to have no real commitment skills, uninterested in love or relationships. No, according to the media (and Bioware) the only thing are sexuality is about is putting notches on out belt for every booty we can pound. It's sad that I have to go to games like Skyrim, or Fable were the 'romances' are cardboard cutouts with little to no character JUST to experience a gay relationship were they aren't promiscuous.

What's even more frustrating is that since Dragon Age 2 there's been multiple romance options for a character. In Mass effect 3 you had Kaidan, Bi with no prior sexual history or Steve, gay with a deceased husband, two very different people with different pasts and sexual histories. Then DA:I comes along and gives us two options, Iron Bull, Bi and sleeps with everything (he can even sleep with some NPCs before the romance becomes available) and Dorian, gay and has slept with a lot of people just for the sake of it. You had two people but you chose to make them the same, why are we not worthy of having people like Alistair, or Cullen? Why are all the others given to us the same, instead of being diverse like everyone else's, Why can't Bioware make one like Alistair/Cullen and the other like Bull/Dorian/Zevran so everyone has representation? Some people may think this is ranty, and maybe it is, but I am so tired of being portrayed this way in the media, i'm frustrated by the fact that the media including Bioware has pushed this stereotype and caused people to say that they 'would never guess I was gay, because I don't act like it'. Well regardless of whether Bioware or EA thinks it's important, regardless of if they continue to represent me and my sexuality in this stereotypical way and keep using the same template designed only to show that I and other gay&bi men must be slutty because we're not straight so obviously that's how we all are, I know different. Romances are an important part of these games and if Bioware isn't interested in me or representing me and other gay people as varied human beings with different views on sex, relationships and life. I cannot support those ideas with my money and couldn't in good concious buy a game which continue to promote the same tiresome and frankly offensive 'representations' of S/S men if this is going to happen again in Andromeda.

 

TL;DR: Bioware's representation of gay/bi men in their romances as all being promiscuous is stereotypical and offensive to me and a lot of people who've fought for years just to be regarded as equals. Hopefully Andromeda will take influence from ME3 and have a Bi option and Gay option, one who is not promiscuous with no prior sexual history and the other option who is that so everyone has representation. Until it's confirmed that there is an option for us gay men who isn't promiscuous I won't be funding Bioware by buying this game if they are only interested in portraying us as all as being promiscuous.


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#2
Bowhunter4L

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No disrespect intended but here is a idea... how about Bioware stops pandering to everyone that feels that THERE sexual orientation isn't being represented... and yes that also included if you're straight. and make a kick ass sci fi fantasy game NOT another wannabe harlequin romance game. Besides they cant even do that right anyways.,, it's like a bunch of 13 yr olds trying to act like adults.
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#3
Innocent Bystander

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You scored XXXXX on VMB's Response Sheet ™.
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#4
The Elder King

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No disrespect intended but here is a idea... how about Bioware stops pandering to everyone that feels that THERE sexual orientation isn't being represented... and yes that also included if you're straight. and make a kick ass sci fi fantasy game NOT another wannabe harlequin romance game. Besides they cant even do that right anyways.,, it's like a bunch of 13 yr olds trying to act like adults.

The OP isn't saying gays aren't represented in Bioware games. He's saying they're represented often as promiscuous, and wish Bioware offer different personalities. Which, in a general note, I agree. Bioware often uses certain stereotypes when writing companions and other characters. Expanding the range can be a benifit to the game since we might get new types of characters. Which would make the game better.


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#5
The Night Haunter

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TL;DR: Bioware's representation of gay/bi men in their romances as all being promiscuous is stereotypical and offensive to me and a lot of people who've fought for years just to be regarded as equals. Hopefully Andromeda will take influence from ME3 and have a Bi option and Gay option, one who is not promiscuous with no prior sexual history and the other option who is that so everyone has representation. Until it's confirmed that there is an option for us gay men who isn't promiscuous I won't be funding Bioware by buying this game if they are only interested in portraying us as all as being promiscuous.

Um what? Kaiden = Bi - not promiscuous at all.

Steve = Gay - Not promiscuous, he is in fact devastated when his lover dies.

Whats-her-name-with-the-toothbrush - bit more ambiguous, but definitely not overly promiscuous. 

 

You may be referring to Sera and Dorian from DAI. Ok, Sera is in fact promiscuous, but guess what? Some people are. It fits her character and has nothing to do with her gender preference. A straight Sera would be just as promiscuous. Unless you think no gay characters should be promiscuous then a single horny gay elf is hardly portraying gays as sex crazy.

Dorian - Deceivingly not very promiscuous. He is sexually confident and flirts regularly, but he is pretty strictly a 1 dude dude.

 

 

I think you need to replay some of this content before making sweeping generalizations that are, in fact, quite incorrect.

 

Edit: further characters - 

Iron Bull - Bi - Very, very promiscuous, but this is because of who he is and how he was raised. He was shackled to the Qun for his whole life and finds the freedom he is given as a spy to be an enjoyable rebellion. If he were straight he would be just as horny, it is very much a part of his character to indulge in every excess he can. 

Grey Warden whose name escapes me - Bi and very much not promiscuous. This is part of his character, he is punishing himself for his sins and doesn't feel sleeping around is befitting his punishment. Regardless he isn't sex crazed.

Liara - Not Bi, she is a monogendered alien. Also not promiscuous.  

Diana Allers - no clue and no real interest in knowing as she is the least interesting and most shoe-horned in character ever.


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#6
The Elder King

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Um what? Kaiden = Bi - not promiscuous at all.

Steve = Gay - Not promiscuous, he is in fact devastated when his lover dies.

Whats-her-name-with-the-toothbrush - let more ambiguous, but definitely not overly promiscuous. 

 

You may be referring to Sera and Dorian from DAI. Ok, Sera is in fact promiscuous, but guess what? Some people are. It fits her character and has nothing to do with her gender preference. A straight Sera would be just as promiscuous. Unless you think no gay characters should be promiscuous then a single horny gay elf is hardly portraying gays as sex crazy.

Dorian - Deceivingly not very promiscuous. He is sexually confident and flirts regularly, but he is pretty strictly a 1 dude dude.

 

 

I think you need to replay some of this content before making sweeping generalizations that are, in fact, quite incorrect.

I think he's referring specifically to male characters, otherwise he'd have mentioned Isabela.

Not that I don't agree with you. It's true that m/m romances were often promiscuous, but Kaidan, Fenris, Steve and Dorians are good examples. Also, Anders is more in between the two groups. 


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#7
Dalinne

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There is nothing wrong with being sexually active or promiscuous.

However, I agree with OP. If you can only write a bisexual as a promiscuous oversexualized person... well, probably you have a problem as a writer 'cos that is lazy characterization.

Also, Kaidan is bae. :wub:


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#8
Lady Artifice

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I think you're exaggerating, OP. 


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#9
The Night Haunter

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There is nothing wrong with being sexually active or promiscuous.

However, I agree with OP. If you can only write a bisexual as a promiscuous oversexualized person... well, probably you have a problem as a writer 'cos that is lazy characterization.

Also, Kaidan is bae. :wub:

I agree that relying on stereotypes is lazy, but luckily BioWare doesn't do this much (in the love department at least). There is a nice variety of characters who display varying levels of promiscuity. 

 

Never romanced Kaidan as a dude yet (still only managed 2 ME3 runs, replaying the entire trilogy is hard), but I found Dorian's romance to be surprisingly deep. I almost never do strictly m/m romance content in BioWare games (or any games really), but I loved Dorians ark.


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#10
Gannayev of Dreams

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I don't think the Mass Effect series has ever had promiscuous romance options, gay or straight. Dragon Age does have a history of promiscuous bisexuals though. Zevran, Isabela, and Iron Bull all fit in that category representing each game respectively.


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#11
The Elder King

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I don't think the Mass Effect series has ever had promiscuous romance options, gay or straight. Dragon Age does have a history of promiscuous bisexuals though. Zevran, Isabela, and Iron Bull all fit in that category representing each game respectively.

Well, Jack kind of is/was. 

We do have though Leliana, Merill, Fenris, Anders, and Josephine though. I wouldnt' mind if for once the promiscuous romance isn't present, or is straight.



#12
Panda

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I think this is more true to Dragon Age than Mass Effect though. I don't think ME has had any promiscuous bisexual/gay LI neither men or women so I doubt you have that much to be worried about ME:A.


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#13
Gannayev of Dreams

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Well, Jack kind of is/was. 

We do have though Leliana, Merill, Fenris, Anders, and Josephine though. I wouldnt' mind if for once the promiscuous romance isn't present, or is straight.

 

Those characters are bisexual (except Jack) but they aren't promiscuous.

 

Jack, though, I can't consider promiscuous given her complicated past and myriad psychological hangups thereof. 


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#14
SNascimento

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So, no virgin homosexual = no buy?


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#15
Ibn_Shisha

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I haven't played these as romance options, but from normal dialogues I definitely don't get a promiscuous vibe from:

 

-Cytharat

-Theron Shan

-Koth Vortena

-Sky


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#16
The Elder King

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Those characters are bisexual (except Jack) but they aren't promiscuous.

 

Jack, though, I can't consider promiscuous given her complicated past and myriad psychological hangups thereof. 

The second part of my post were meant to show bisexual romances in DA who aren't promiscuous. Even if we got Zevran, Isabela and Bull, we got different types as well.


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#17
Gannayev of Dreams

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The second part of my post were meant to show bisexual romances in DA who aren't promiscuous. Even if we got Zevran, Isabela and Bull, we got different types as well.

 

Oh. We're on the same page then.



#18
The Twilight God

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TL;DR: Bioware's representation of gay/bi men in their romances as all being promiscuous is stereotypical and offensive to me and a lot of people who've fought for years just to be regarded as equals. Hopefully Andromeda will take influence from ME3 and have a Bi option and Gay option, one who is not promiscuous with no prior sexual history and the other option who is that so everyone has representation.


Everyone wouldn't have representation. Just your particular group. The world is far more varied than gay and straight. There are a lot more groups who have far greater numbers and have less representation that the tiny gay population or none at all.

#19
SnakeCode

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 ME:A dev- "we really focused on exploration (of your sexuality, gender identity, race and all of that good stuff) this time around."


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#20
Jedi Comedian

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I don't really think the Loras/Olyvar thing meant much, considering half the characters bang prostitutes. I agree though. Bioware isn't really the place you seek I'm afraid.

#21
Kierro Ren

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Idc if there's LGBT romances, just do them respectively.

 

So, no virgin homosexual = no buy?

 

OMG, WHAT!? NO GAY VIRGIN!?... WE RIOT!!!

Spoiler



#22
DuskWanderer

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The only purpose of the romances seems to be showing some lovin'. If that's the case, BioWARE should stop with all romances. 


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#23
iM3GTR

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Whyyyyy!?

#24
rocklikeafool

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wahmbulance.jpg



#25
Solas

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Aren't the Mass Effect and Dragon Age dev teams separate?

 

Mass Effect's same-sex male romance options (gay and bisexual men) have thus far been non-promiscuous (Steve and Kaidan). 


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