You're right, destroying entire populated planets, mass murder and punching reporters is okay, but smacking Jacob around for cheating on Shepard is completely unacceptable. That just crosses a line. This line. Right here. It's purple. And glows in the dark.
Nothing happens if you step over it in fiction though.
Eh, that smack on the mouth is nothing compared to what Shepard can put Khalisah through. Like seriously, punching a defenseless civilian square in the face for no really good reason only makes Shepard look like a tool. They should've gone the extra mile and allow us to go all Bjork and just jump on her and maul away.
Don't forget about the outright individual execution. Like literally executing people who don't pose an immediate threat. Shepard can do that. Also Shepard can torture.
I don't really believe in lines that can't be crossed, especially since the lines drawn by people often don't make sense to me.
If your game is just about doing despicable things then maybe you need your head checked, though.
Fair enough. I'd argue that it's severely less distasteful than the various ways that Shepard can execute people or contribute to the genocide of entire species, but yea.
Personally, I think there's a difference between "fantasy violence" and violence that mimics situations that are more relevant to the everyday life of the player. Things like domestic violence, rape, hate crimes related to real life race, sexuality, religion, etc, are going to be more emotionally charged and possibly difficult to watch for an audience that may have experienced such things. Yes, killing a whole alien species is worse if that really happened, but this is clearly fantasy. It's not something anyone playing that game is going to do or have done to them outside the game, we can pretty safely assume.
Personally, I think there's a difference between "fantasy violence" and violence that mimics situations that are more relevant to the everyday life of the player. Things like domestic violence, rape, hate crimes related to real life race, sexuality, religion, etc, are going to be more emotionally charged and possibly difficult to watch for an audience that may have experienced such things. Yes, killing a whole alien species is worse if that really happened, but this is clearly fantasy. It's not something anyone playing that game is going to do or have done to them outside the game, we can pretty safely assume.
Sort of? Genocide exists in real life. For some people, it's still a daily concern.
The only difference here is that it's aliens instead of humans. Even if you take out aliens from the equation (which IMO you shouldn't, because the aliens were made to be people), there's still the general unnecessary violence/execution/etc in the game that Shepard can do to humans aside from punching Jacob after he cheated. And of course, being a victim of general non-domestic violence or murder is still an everyday concern for many people.
You shouldn't punch people including someone who cheated on you but I'd be more scared of Shepard for the other things s/he can do.
All of those things can be, and have been, represented in fiction; be it historical fiction, science fiction, fantasy or otherwise. The world has yet to end as a result. If such things were truly disallowed, we wouldn't have all manner of works that we do have, be they lesser or greater works, or works anywhere in between. In fiction many lines are crossed, things are done that should not and could not be done for any number of reasons.
Old lines, current lines and new lines have been crossed in art and fiction for as long, and maybe longer, than we have recorded history of such events. Would we be where we are now without people willing to cross lines no matter whether such things were tasteful? Is all art tasteful? Should all art be tasteful? Some art is meant to offend. Some people need offended.
Fiction. It's not real. Jacob getting smacked didn't hurt anyone, not even Jacob, because he isn't real. Anyways, Jacob seems like the, "in art one must kill one's father," type. Maybe he took it a bit too literally, but hey, he's a fictional guy that does fictional things, and no space hamsters were harmed in the making of this product to avoid upsetting fictional space PETA.
All of those things can be, and have been, represented in fiction; be it historical fiction, science fiction, fantasy or otherwise. The world has yet to end as a result. If such things were truly disallowed, we wouldn't have all manner of works that we do have, be they lesser or greater works, or works anywhere in between. In fiction many lines are crossed, things are done that should not and could not be done for any number of reasons.
Old lines, current lines and new lines have been crossed in art and fiction for as long, and maybe longer, than we have recorded history of such things. Would we be where we are now without people willing to cross lines no matter whether such things were tasteful? Is all art tasteful? Should all art be tasteful? Some are is meant to offend. Some people need offended.
Fiction. It's not real. Jacob getting smacked didn't hurt anyone, not even Jacob, because he isn't real. Anyways, Jacob seems like the, "in art one must kill one's father," type. Maybe he took it a bit too literally, but hey, he's a fictional guy that does fictional things, and no space hamsters were harmed in the making of this product to avoid upsetting fictional space PETA.
What I'm saying isn't that I think these things should be banned from all media or that there's literally no context in which they could be presented acceptably. I'm saying that I think it's insensitive and tasteless, in this specific story and medium. I'm not comfortable with the idea of letting you choose to have an abusive relationship with your companion romances when they don't behave the way you want, just like I wouldn't be comfortable with allowing you to choose to rape companions that refuse to have sex with or, or I wouldn't have been alright with allowing Shepard to call Steve slurs and beat the crap out of him when the found out he was gay. There are ways to put offensive things in media that make a point, or push conventional thought in a way that makes people uncomfortable, but does so in an intelligent way. To me, this isn't that. It's just being shocking and grimdark edgy because you can, or maybe just assuming a woman CAN'T abuse a man, even if she's the most powerful figure in the universe. I'm not sure which, honestly.
Should people be able to do that? Of course they should be ALLOWED TO. I'm not advocating censorship. You can be as offensive and gross as you want. It's just not something I'd personally want to endorse with my time and money. Other people are free to.
This is why trying to appease all social minorities is a thankless job and a catch 22. BioWare has tried to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, yet there will always be backlash. It's why most developers won't even bother at all and will just accommodate the majority. Not that you should be content with what is being offered, but how many developers honestly do what BioWare does? Most games don't even tackle romance in any meaningful way, especially relationships that aren't heterosexual.
Instead of attacking and insulting BioWare, perhaps provide valid criticism and insight. Instead of threatening to never purchase another BioWare game again, communicate with them where they could do better and improve. Nothing in this world is perfect. I'm a heterosexual male and I personally found the options in DAI to be a little disappointing. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop buying BioWare games just because one female romance option was a "Disney princess" and the other was a strong-willed woman who is a "dork at heart" stereotype.
I love BioWare and no one else on the planet puts the amount of time they do into romances and the variety they offer. There's always room for improvement, but show a little gratitude. BioWare has been the pioneer of pushing social issues for a very long time, and they try to improve with each and every game. They won't always have success, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying and won't make an effort to do better.
This is why trying to appease all social minorities is a thankless job and a catch 22. BioWare has tried to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, yet there will always be backlash. It's why most developers won't even bother at all and will just accommodate the majority.
Because the majority never complains regardless what they do, right?
Because the majority never complains regardless what they do, right?
Video games are a business and games are always targeted at the largest common denominator. While everybody in the majority may not like what is produced, most of the majority (assuming the game does well) will be content, if not satisfied, with the final product. The point of my post is BioWare goes above and beyond to appeal to more than just the majority. While it may not always work, they do try and they certainly aren't required to at all. If BioWare decided to only focus on heterosexual relationships, you better believe that would make game development a whole lot easier on them.
Video games are a business and games are always targeted at the largest common denominator. While everybody in the majority may not like what is produced, most of the majority (assuming the game does well) will be content, if not satisfied, with the final product. The point of my post is BioWare goes above and beyond to appeal to more than just the majority. While it may not always work, they do try and they certainly aren't required to at all. If BioWare decided to only focus on heterosexual relationships, you better believe that would make game development a whole lot easier on them.
Bioware doesn't do gay romances as an act of charity to the LGBT community, they do it because there's a market for them, and not just with actual gay people. Some people complain about them, just like some people complained about the straight romances from literally every game they've ever made. Sometimes the majority of gay players liked an option, sometimes they didn't. Same with straight options. In both cases, the complaints sometimes had a point and sometimes didn't. You're making this a demographic specific issue when it's not.
Bioware doesn't do gay romances as an act of charity to the LGBT community, they do it because there's a market for them, and not just with actual gay people. Some people complain about them, just like some people complained about the straight romances from literally every game they've ever made. Sometimes the majority of gay players liked an option, sometimes they didn't. Same with straight options. In both cases, the complaints sometimes had a point and sometimes didn't. You're making this a demographic specific issue when it's not.
What? You do realize the LGBT community is a minority? Correct? That's not to say there isn't a market for them, but BioWare could save a lot of money and resources not worrying about providing content to a minority. How many LGBT protagonists have you seen in the GTA franchise? How many in Call of Duty? How many in World of Warcraft? Are you starting to see what I'm getting at? There isn't nearly as much money in this demographic as you are claiming and BioWare is definitely going the extra mile to try and appeal to a larger audience than just straight, white males. That's far more effort than what most developers do. I don't think you actually understand the issue being presented here.
What? You do realize the LGBT community is a minority? Correct? That's not to say there isn't a market for them, but BioWare could save a lot of money and resources not worrying about providing content to a minority. How many LGBT protagonists have you seen in the GTA franchise? How many in Call of Duty? How many in World of Warcraft? Are you starting to see what I'm getting at? There isn't nearly as much money in this demographic as you are claiming and BioWare is definitely going the extra mile to try and appeal to a larger audience than just straight, white males. That's far more effort than what most developers do. I don't think you actually understand the issue being presented here.
You don't always make money by competing with the same demographic everyone else is already competing for. "Straight, white males" aren't even an actual "majority" of people, by any measure. Bioware markets to a broader range of people and attracts a broader range of people, which means money from a wider range of people and less need to compete with what everyone else is already doing for a cut of that specific market. Gay romances aren't just for gay people, anyway. You're making a mistake about the size of the demand if you're literally only looking at the estimated size of the LGBT population. Straight men do lesbian romances often. Straight women do gay male romances often. Some straight people like to do both for variety.
Bioware wouldn't gain money by scrapping the system. That's why more companies are doing this, like the all bisexual romances in Fallout 4. As people get more open minded to such things, it becomes more in demand and companies see it's only a marketing plus. You're the one that doesn't really know the market and it's silly to believe studios like Bioware and Bethesda are just that super nice that they're throwing away money for charitable contributions to social issues. That's not meant as a smack in the face to those companies, though, there's nothing wrong with making options you know will sell and they've both done a pretty good job representing the LGBT community, imo. Not perfect, but nothing is ever perfect. They should keep taking user criticism on these options, just like they do on heterosexual options, but with the awareness that some complaints are just someone's subjective opinion.
Video games are a business and games are always targeted at the largest common denominator. While everybody in the majority may not like what is produced, most of the majority (assuming the game does well) will be content, if not satisfied, with the final product. The point of my post is BioWare goes above and beyond to appeal to more than just the majority. While it may not always work, they do try and they certainly aren't required to at all. If BioWare decided to only focus on heterosexual relationships, you better believe that would make game development a whole lot easier on them.
In terms of romance content Bioware gets as much if not more complains about heterosexual relationships as LGBT+ one's so I don't understand your point. Or don't minority have same right to complain as majority?
And you'd be wrong about that since the writer has specifically stated otherwise. At this point attempting to portray the loyalty quest as about nothing but homosexuality is straight-up delusion. It's bringing a pre-existing bias about this sort of content (which I know you have, since I've seen your posts in other threads whenever a social issue is discussed).
You also seem bizarrely oblivious to the fact that Dorian's larger stance on Tevinter culture is itself a form of political preaching, especially since it deals with actual freaking politics. You're uncomfortable with the game discussing homosexuality in any fashion, it seems, and that's an untenable viewpoint from which to argue.
So if the writer "specifically stated", I guess it must be true. Right?
Considering the way Gaider wrote and spoke about writing Dorian, it was a sort of a personal catharsis for him.
I find it hard to believe that Dorian's personal quest was about much else than Gaider's personal experiences and political views.
Of course I have a bias against "this sort of content", that's what I just wrote in this thread.
But my bias is against current-political-agenda-driven writing, not homosexuality. I don't need preaching in my entertainment. The end.
The fact that writing and lore tend to get compromised at times by agenda blinded writers is particularly unfortunate.
Believe it or not, I have nothing against gays, my attitude on the subject is live and let live.
Everyone is entitled to their own brand of fun, and since I'm not religious I really couldn't care less about it.
I do have everything against the new political movement that strives to force the politically-correct narrative on everyone else.
Gay characters in game should be like every other character, they should be about their personality and agenda rather than their sexuality.
Straight characters don't expect you to help them on personal quests regarding their sexuality, ever. Why should gay characters be different?
Want acceptance? Here it is: Be Like Everyone Else. Your sexual preference is different than most? Cool. So, what's for lunch today?
As for Tavinter "politics", I don't see the connection. This is a fantasy setting and any resemblance to real life is flimsy at best.
Good thing nobody here took that position, then.
You'd be surprised by how popular this opinion is.
I think the problem many of us have is that people are demanding for a given character to be a straight/gay/lesbian/bi ONLY relationship. And of course when you do that each group needs to have the same as the all the other groups (whether or not demographically it makes sense). This cycle is a massive resource drain on the overall game. Just make the damn romanceable characters player-sexual. Why some people are bothered by this I will never understand. It's a RP game, RP the character a given sexual orientation. Hell, Bioware could have you check a box regarding your sexual orientation in the character creator so those characters react to your sexual orientation...which seems like far less work than placating every damn demographic.
This is why trying to appease all social minorities is a thankless job and a catch 22. BioWare has tried to be as inclusive and open-minded as possible, yet there will always be backlash. It's why most developers won't even bother at all and will just accommodate the majority. Not that you should be content with what is being offered, but how many developers honestly do what BioWare does? Most games don't even tackle romance in any meaningful way, especially relationships that aren't heterosexual.
Instead of attacking and insulting BioWare, perhaps provide valid criticism and insight. Instead of threatening to never purchase another BioWare game again, communicate with them where they could do better and improve. Nothing in this world is perfect. I'm a heterosexual male and I personally found the options in DAI to be a little disappointing. That doesn't mean I'm going to stop buying BioWare games just because one female romance option was a "Disney princess" and the other was a strong-willed woman who is a "dork at heart" stereotype.
I love BioWare and no one else on the planet puts the amount of time they do into romances and the variety they offer. There's always room for improvement, but show a little gratitude. BioWare has been the pioneer of pushing social issues for a very long time, and they try to improve with each and every game. They won't always have success, but that doesn't mean they aren't trying and won't make an effort to do better.
The vast, vast majority of people who are attacking Bioware for this are doing it due to alleging that they're too inclusive.
Gay characters in game should be like every other character, they should be about their personality and agenda rather than their sexuality.
Straight characters don't expect you to help them on personal quests regarding their sexuality, ever. Why should gay characters be different?
So, to clarify, you do not have any problems with Steve's dialogue?
I think the problem many of us have is that people are demanding for a given character to be a straight/gay/lesbian/bi ONLY relationship. And of course when you do that each group needs to have the same as the all the other groups (whether or not demographically it makes sense). This cycle is a massive resource drain on the overall game. Just make the damn romanceable characters player-sexual. Why some people are bothered by this I will never understand. It's a RP game, RP the character a given sexual orientation. Hell, Bioware could have you check a box regarding your sexual orientation in the character creator so those characters react to your sexual orientation...which seems like far less work than placating every damn demographic.
How is that less work? You'd need to write and record everyone's romance dialogue multiple times, and you won't be able to integrate any of a given sexual orientation into the characterization of that character.
I think the problem many of us have is that people are demanding for a given character to be a straight/gay/lesbian/bi ONLY relationship. And of course when you do that each group needs to have the same as the all the other groups (whether or not demographically it makes sense). This cycle is a massive resource drain on the overall game. Just make the damn romanceable characters player-sexual. Why some people are bothered by this I will never understand. It's a RP game, RP the character a given sexual orientation. Hell, Bioware could have you check a box regarding your sexual orientation in the character creator so those characters react to your sexual orientation...which seems like far less work than placating every damn demographic.
I wouldn't mind them just doing all bi or ambiguous LIs in the future. They could always do other sexualities with non-LIs. Letting anyone romance the LIs worked fine in DA2, and it worked great for Fallout 4, imo. I've never seen the problem with it. I think it's a much easier way to make sure nobody gets less content, or gets the less story involved LI choices. It had benefits.
The point is that video games shouldn't be diminished by using them as yet another tool to preach political opinions.
Yes, some influence is inevitable, but this case seems rather overt to me.
Writers exploring real life problems and issues using different mediums of story-telling? I'm not sure anyone has ever heard of that before.
The way I see it BioWare are not being inclusive primarily for some financial pay-off, I see the motivation being:
Gay characters in game should be like every other character, they should be about their personality and agenda rather than their sexuality.
Straight characters don't expect you to help them on personal quests regarding their sexuality, ever. Why should gay characters be different?
Oghren's personal quests were about his heterosexual relationship with Branka, and, later, Felsi.
Odd how no one complains about that.
So, to clarify, you do not have any problems with Steve's dialogue?
There was some awkward voice acting, and he seems to make a pass on the PC even if he is in a relationship.
But other than that? Not really.
Oghren's personal quests were about his heterosexual relationship with Branka, and, later, Felsi.
Odd how no one complains about that.
His personal quest was about him being a drunk. And what else would you make his personal quest about?
Buying a new axe? Trying a new type of ale? It was probably the single meaningful aspect remaining of the ruins of his life.
Hell, the only reason you talk to him at all initially, is because you are looking for his ex / wife, so of course it would be about that.
It's also not really about sexuality.
Writers exploring real life problems and issues using different mediums of story-telling? I'm not sure anyone has ever heard of that before.
Meh. It's less "exploring", more "let me teach you about right and wrong".
Just like they tend to do when they handle something like Cerberus and their actions, the just can't help themselves and take the most
ham-fisted approach possible.
Bioware is hardly a new company, but they are yet to master the art of "show, don't tell".
Oghren's personal quests were about his heterosexual relationship with Branka, and, later, Felsi.
Odd how no one complains about that.
Also Aveline, whose Act 2 quest is all about getting her a boyfriend, and people usually say they love that quest.
Also Aveline, whose Act 2 quest is all about getting her a boyfriend, and people usually say they love that quest.
It's hardly about sexuality itself, just like Oghren's. In fact you can cut and paste the story on any pair of people with any sexuality.
It's hardly about sexuality itself, just like Oghren's.
You probably perceive it in that way because those are heterosexual relationships.
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