You probably perceive it in that way because those are heterosexual relationships.
You really don't see the difference between Dorian becoming all emotional about his evil father who tried to change his sexuality,
to a vanilla story about relationships that could have been told just about anyone?
Meh. It's less "exploring", more "let me teach you about right and wrong".
Just like they tend to do when they handle something like Cerberus and their actions, the just can't help themselves and take the most
ham-fisted approach possible.
Bioware is hardly a new company, but they are yet to master the art of "show, don't tell".
This is a bit like when someone asks what do you want from your games, and someone responds with "good gameplay". Sure, we want good gameplay, but we all want that so it ends up being a tautology.
I think story writers have unsubtle writing all the time. Regardless of perception of their quality, we could talk to the writers of Game of Thrones, Breaking Bad, and Hannibal. Each of those shows has a number of points that they were making through their respective storylines. I'd hardly put Bioware writers on that level, but the key point is that: all writers engage in writing with some kind of a purpose.
It's like trying to stop a hurricane at that point: it's simply going to happen, much like it does in every other story-telling medium.
It's like trying to stop a hurricane at that point: it's simply going to happen, much like it does in every other story-telling medium.
Well, the hurricane seemed to have left The Witcher 3 relatively untouched.
(at least when it comes to beating the players on their head with political opinions, and the general handling of all matters regarding morality)
There was some awkward voice acting, and he seems to make a pass on the PC even if he is in a relationship.
But other than that? Not really.
I never noticed that. At what point did he do this?
You really don't see the difference between Dorian becoming all emotional about his evil father who tried to change his sexuality,
to a vanilla story about relationships that could have been told just about anyone?
Except he wasn't trying to change his sexuality. He was trying to get Dorian to accept his role in Tevinter society and the heir to house Parvus. The big takeaway from his story was that he didn't want to end up like his parents: paired up with someone he hates and forced to smile and pretend to be happy. You don't have to be gay to appreciate that.
You really don't see the difference between Dorian becoming all emotional about his evil father who tried to change his sexuality,
to a vanilla story about relationships that could have been told just about anyone?
Still, if we're going this route: Dorian's storyline could easily have been a heterosexual vanilla story about his parents using Blood Magic to change him because he falls in love with/marries a girl who would destroy his family's status in Tevinter. It might not be a subtle story, but the overarching point of Dorian's storyline was that he put love/himself above his family's obsessive interest in good breeding and political ties.
It's been a while since I've played it, but does Dorian's personal quest at any point actually make a big deal about the fact that he's gay? As I remember it, it really came down to disobedience messing with his family's ambitions.
I never noticed that. At what point did he do this?
Except he wasn't trying to change his sexuality. He was trying to get Dorian to accept his role in Tevinter society and the heir to house Parvus. The big takeaway from his story was that he didn't want to end up like his parents: paired up with someone he hates and forced to smile and pretend to be happy. You don't have to be gay to appreciate that.
This.
Dorian's family really didn't have a problem with him being gay, but rather they had a problem with him not being willing to do what was expected of him, which was indeed to marry and produce heirs. If he had done that his parents wouldn't have cared if he had sex with men on the side. It wasn't about him being gay, but about him refusing to do what was expected of him.
Well, the hurricane seemed to have left The Witcher 3 relatively untouched.
(at least when it comes to beating the players on their head with political opinions, and the general handling of all matters regarding morality)
Did it? To reference: my statement was: writers make points in their stories all the time. I didn't say what those points would be about, or that they would all be strictly about modern day political issues.
"The hurricane", to keep the comparison going, isn't writers talking about identity politics strictly. The hurricane is writers talking about whatever they feel like it, which happens to include what they might consider important modern day topics.
Beat me to the punch, Iakus.
If you look a little closer, you can see a number of parallels between Dorian's story and Varric/Bianca's story The road not taken and all 
I never noticed that. At what point did he do this?
In the bar scene, where you have a weird choice between accepting a flirt or saying that you like the strippers...
Still, if we're going this route: Dorian's storyline could easily have been a heterosexual vanilla story about his parents using Blood Magic to change him because he falls in love
As was pointed above in this thread, the problem is more crucial due to the complete lack of heir, rather than the absence of THE perfect heir.
Which means that if he wasn't gay, then even if he married for love it wouldn't have been as bad. Therefore - blood-magic-"therapy".
Did it? To reference: my statement was: writers make points in their stories all the time. I didn't say what those points would be about, or that they would all be strictly about modern day political issues.
"The hurricane", to keep the comparison going, isn't writers talking about identity politics strictly. The hurricane is writers talking about whatever they feel like it, which happens to include what they might consider important modern day topics.
If your statement is being "hands off" and not preaching, that's hardly using your game to preach. That's the entire point.
In the bar scene, where you have a weird choice between accepting a flirt or saying that you like the strippers...
I never took that as a flirt from him, more like an opportunity to flirt with him if you so chose. It suffered from ME3's usual two-choice limit for responses. But never got the sense he was coming on to Shepard.
As was pointed above in this thread, the problem is more crucial due to the complete lack of heir, rather than the absence of THE perfect heir.
Which means that if he wasn't gay, then even if he married for love it wouldn't have been as bad. Therefore - blood-magic-"therapy".
I dunno about that. Dorian's future wife was chosen for him without any input. Dorian had never even met her if I recall correctly. Mages, and especially those from the altus class are bred like dogs or horses.
And again, look at his parents. They despised each other. And Dorian as a child had to live with that. It's one of the things that disgusts him about Tevinter society.
In the bar scene, where you have a weird choice between accepting a flirt or saying that you like the strippers...
I've seen that scene recently and as I recall, Steve was referring to some of the men on the dance floor as eyecandy. He was looking directly at a man on the dance floor down to making eye contact with him when he said; "And some of the eye candy in the crowd isn't too shabby, either."
Additionally and importantly, Shepard's flirt option has the paraphrase be "I'm eyecandy too". The too in it would indicate that Steve was not talking about Shepard. The actual dialogue for the option confirms this; "I'm hurt. Why aren't you looking over here?"
You have to select the flirt option and have Shepard ask for it before Steve makes a pass at him.
That aside, the choice is wierd since Shepard could as easily have had the option of saying he enjoyed the eyecandy on the dance floor as well as an additional way of not initiating the romance.
Also Aveline, whose Act 2 quest is all about getting her a boyfriend, and people usually say they love that quest.
Pretty much.
So far, we've got a quest involving Oghren/Branka, and, later, Oghren/Felsi in DAO. In DAA, you literally play marriage councilor for Oghren/Felsi. In DA2, we get Aveline/Donnic.
In DAI, Bioware gives us a personal quest that involves Dorian's sexuality. So far, I'm counting three quests dealing with heterosexuality, and one quest involving homosexuality.
As was pointed above in this thread, the problem is more crucial due to the complete lack of heir, rather than the absence of THE perfect heir.
Which means that if he wasn't gay, than even if he married for love it wouldn't have been as bad. Therefore - blood-magic-"therapy".
But the circumstances are similar enough to fall under the same heading of brain washing your child into doing exactly as you want them to. As Iakus points out, we're given multiple talking points about Dorian's parents absolutely hating each other and as per Dorian himself, good breeding to produce the best magical heirs possible is a big thing.
The storyline could have been Dorian falling in love with a servant girl with no magical blood in her at all, risking the House's future success. It could have been about Dorian simply not wanting to be involved in House Pavus at all, disliking Tevinter Politics completely. It could have even been Dorian simply not wanting to have children. It happened to be Dorian being interested in men.
All those fall neatly into the theme of rebellion against Tevinter's obsession with magic and politics, and would have involved the same blood magic therapy as a consequence, to get Dorian back on track with his family's goals.
If your statement is being "hands off" and not preaching, that's hardly using your game to preach. That's the entire point.
I'm not sure that's accurate in this instance. Preaching doesn't magically disappear, just because you dress it up with good dialogue or make it about topics you happen to enjoy exploring. As I said: the vast majority of writers have a purpose in mind with everything they explore. They're not all equally capable of doing it well, but it still involves the same motive of writing to your audience with a specific point in mind.
Lots of Jacobmancers raged over that. lol!!
But anyway, I don't consider a promiscuous person as being the same as unfaithful. All it means is that they slept with a lot of people. Jacob was hardly promiscuous, he's just a cheater.
I didn't exactly rage, but I deleted that Shepard. 
They really did drop the level in ME3 on the ME2 romances. But Jacob, poor Jacob it was rather sad.
I agree, there is a big difference in someone who is promiscuous before going into a relationship and being unfaithful.
His personal quest was about him being a drunk. And what else would you make his personal quest about?
Buying a new axe? Trying a new type of ale? It was probably the single meaningful aspect remaining of the ruins of his life.
Hell, the only reason you talk to him at all initially, is because you are looking for his ex / wife, so of course it would be about that.
It's also not really about sexuality.
It's not about his drinking either, as far as I can remember, since while the quest brings up the nug roast incident, it seems to be portrayed more as an embarassing event rather than a sign of a serious problem.
The outcomes that'll lead Felsi and Oghren to reconciling has nothing to do with his drinking, to my memory, but with their personal feelings for each other and impressing Felsi with exploits.
As far as I remember, Oghren continues to be a heavy drinker, regardless of the outcome, throughout the game and in Awakening.
Pretty much.
So far, we've got a quest involving Oghren/Branka, and, later, Oghren/Felsi in DAO. In DAA, you literally play marriage councilor for Oghren/Felsi. In DA2, we get Aveline/Donnic.
In DAI, Bioware gives us a personal quest that involves Dorian's sexuality. So far, I'm counting three quests dealing with heterosexuality, and one quest involving homosexuality.
Ok. now lets compare this to our societal average and see what we get.
I want to add some FYI, that in Elder Scrolls Online there is a side quest where an elderly Wood Elf man is with his dying husband in a place they would go to when they were young, these two have been together since their teenage years (and given how long their race lives for these two would have been together for up to, or over 200 years) and he asks you to retrieve special flowers so they can relive one last memory before his husband dies. This one single side quest is more beautiful, more powerful and more diverse than anything Bioware has ever done in the Dragon Age series and Mass Effect 1 and 2, showing homosexuality to be equal and what the majority of people see any type of love as, a life long commitment between two people to cherish each other. Compare that to Bioware's closest attempt from NPCs...Dorian and Iron Bull get heavily drunk, end up sleeping together (because they aren't straight so of course, all we do so sleep around) and that just happens to turn into a relationship...well done...*slow clap*
Not only does it make sense for Bioware to give Gay&Bi players one male romance option in each game which represents them with no prior sexual history, as other players have received with Alistair, Cullen, Kaidan (at least for female Shepard's in ME1), as it covers a wider range of people, it shows Bioware would be committed to dismantling the damaging and offensive stereotypes of non-straight males in the media as being promiscuous, of which Bioware has been very sadly perpetuating in the majority of their games so far.
As Bioware has said it finds representation important it's up to them to prove it and if in Andromeda (and future games from this company) they again make all the male options available to Gay&Bi the same as they have been doing, Zevran, Anders, Dorian, Iron Bull while denying us equal representation with romances like Cullen and Alistair, then I think Bioware need to re-examine it's commitment to representation, because I would find them to be untruthful if they keep using the same cookie cutters for us.
Ok. now lets compare this to our societal average and see what we get.
Wait, Dragon Age takes place in our society? Let's force a % of PCs to be fat and single while we're at it. Wouldn't want to break that verisimilitude, right?
I want to add some FYI, that in Elder Scrolls Online there is a side quest where an elderly Wood Elf man is with his dying husband in a place they would go to when they were young, these two have been together since their teenage years (and given how long their race lives for these two would have been together for up to, or over 200 years) and he asks you to retrieve special flowers so they can relive one last memory before his husband dies. This one single side quest is more beautiful, more powerful and more diverse than anything Bioware has ever done in the Dragon Age series and Mass Effect 1 and 2, showing homosexuality to be equal and what the majority of people see any type of love as, a life long commitment between two people to cherish each other. Compare that to Bioware's closest attempt from NPCs...Dorian and Iron Bull get heavily drunk, end up sleeping together (because they aren't straight so of course, all we do so sleep around) and that just happens to turn into a relationship...well done...*slow clap*
Not only does it make sense for Bioware to give Gay&Bi players one male romance option in each game which represents them with no prior sexual history, as other players have received with Alistair, Cullen, Kaidan (at least for female Shepard's in ME1), as it covers a wider range of people, it shows Bioware would be committed to dismantling the damaging and offensive stereotypes of non-straight males in the media as being promiscuous, of which Bioware has been very sadly perpetuating in the majority of their games so far.
As Bioware has said it finds representation important it's up to them to prove it and if in Andromeda (and future games from this company) they again make all the male options available to Gay&Bi the same as they have been doing, Zevran, Anders, Dorian, Iron Bull while denying us equal representation with romances like Cullen and Alistair, then I think Bioware need to re-examine it's commitment to representation, because I would find them to be untruthful if they keep using the same cookie cutters for us.
Of course I have a bias against "this sort of content", that's what I just wrote in this thread.
But my bias is against current-political-agenda-driven writing, not homosexuality. I don't need preaching in my entertainment. The end.
Fenris doesn't have any sexual history mentioned, that I remember. Why wasn't he mentioned? Although, I think this is getting a bit absurd now. If you literally need a virgin to feel represented, I think that says more about you than Bioware. You don't need to be a virgin to not be promiscuous. Most of the characters you mentioned as virtuous probably aren't even virgins. I understand when people say, for example, bisexuals unfortunately get represented more often as promiscuous. I think you're really stretching to demand a gay virgin LI, specifically, or else Bioware is being legitimately offensive.
@ Spirit Keeper - I remember the wood elf couple in ESO. I also recall dropping the 20+ things I was currently doing just to go get the flowers. It was endearing.
I think you're hoping that if they include a gay male romance in Andromeda that it will be more deep and meaningful. Rather than being invited to an elf's tent in the second conversation or flirt once, flirt twice, flirt three times ...sex scene. The developers have already stated that they are trying to make the romances feel more natural. We won't know what they mean until we experience it in game.
If you are asking them to provide a fresh out of the box, never before touched virgin for you to romance you're setting yourself up for possible disappointment. It doesn't really matter that Kaidan once had a crush on someone before he met you, or that Cortez was once married. You're trying to create something in the present. If anything it suggests Steve was committed and monogamous. They are not the same courtship either. Kaidan needs to trust you, Steve needs stability. I wouldn't describe either of them as promiscuous.
I think the problem many of us have is that people are demanding for a given character to be a straight/gay/lesbian/bi ONLY relationship. And of course when you do that each group needs to have the same as the all the other groups (whether or not demographically it makes sense). This cycle is a massive resource drain on the overall game. Just make the damn romanceable characters player-sexual. Why some people are bothered by this I will never understand. It's a RP game, RP the character a given sexual orientation. Hell, Bioware could have you check a box regarding your sexual orientation in the character creator so those characters react to your sexual orientation...which seems like far less work than placating every damn demographic.
OK, I'll put it out there.
For me, DA2 with all 4 romances available to everyone was a bit boring. A large part of the reason, for me, was they seemed like cookie cutter, or large t-shirt romances with one size fits all, and the check a box option seems too Fableish and lazy saying it's too much trouble to make really interesting characters that stand on their own with fully developed personalities including who they want to have sex with.
I prefer having a character say - nope your not my type but we can hang out and kill demons or blow things up and then have another one that clicks. It's why I liked DAO and DAI so much. They have viewpoints, they have preferences and it makes them more interesting. I enjoy having a couple of them who are more open to a variety of things, Adore Bull and Zev grew on me, But I don't want a whole batch of them. Dorrian, Sarah, Steve and Sam were wonderful characters and for me, they would be less than they are without this personal characteristic.
DA2 had 4 choices who would say yes to your character no matter what, and people complained because Verric wasn't an option. I don't want Fable where anyone will marry you and they are all the same.
I want what they have done in DAO, DAI and ME. I would be happy with I think it's the 2/2/2/2/2 or something like that. 2 straight males; 2 same sex males; 2 straight females; 2 same sex females and 1 male and 1 female who just love both.
I'd used to think I wouldn't mind a characters who will romance you - or not - based on your decisions in the game. But they tried that with DA4, tried it and added the rivalry option which deluted their opinions. So I'm not a fan of this idea.
People are always going to complain, why can't I romance Zaeede or Javik or Kal'Reegar or Verrick, why did they add Cullan as a romance option but not Leliana. I enjoy the romances with characters who are have complete personalities and I can usually find at least one that makes the game more interesting.
Pretty much.
So far, we've got a quest involving Oghren/Branka, and, later, Oghren/Felsi in DAO. In DAA, you literally play marriage councilor for Oghren/Felsi. In DA2, we get Aveline/Donnic.
In DAI, Bioware gives us a personal quest that involves Dorian's sexuality. So far, I'm counting three quests dealing with heterosexuality, and one quest involving homosexuality.
Those quests were not about being straight (Aveline may not even be straight), whereas Dorian's quest specifically had to do being gay and his father disapproving of Dorian's unwillingness to be with women. This idea you can just change it with a straight Dorian not wanting to marry the specific girl his father wants him to marry or something doesn't count it. Especially when you consider Bioware's professed desires for inclusion (using first gay male character in Dragon Age as part of marketing, even) and the fact that Gaider himself is gay and there is reason to suspect he may have put some of himself into Dorian.
The idea that being Dorian being gay wasn't important or integral is almost like saying that Krem being trans wasn't important, that you could just make Krem a tomboy and have the same effect of challenging gender roles.
It feels like people just don't want to admit it. Like if it is admitted, Dorian is suddenly a bad character and it's all bad writing. I don't think that must be the result.
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