477 réponses à ce sujet

[Laughing_Man]

What preaching? That you should use mind-control superpowers to change your children's sexuality against their will? That's not really a moral. Even if you try and generally it to just "don't try to change your children's sexuality against their will" it's still not really preachy - it's a truism.

 

I mentioned above: "conversion therapy" was raised as a hot topic at some point in the recent past in the US.

Seems to me that Dorian's "loyalty quest" was a sock puppet used to raise this issue and preach about it.

 

The magic factor is just the flavor and the excuse to insert it into the setting.

[Wulfram]

Is it really integral? Let's say the intended spouse was the right gender but he just couldn't stand her. You get the same plot., except the specifics of the magic are different.

Though it would work a bit better with a female Dorian, I think.

I think its not quite the same plot because there's more of a sense that a compromise could be found there. If Dorian is straight then there's always the possibility that he'll run into a nice Mage girl with a decent blood line who he's OK with marrying, whereas Dorian being gay means that any marriage would be unacceptable to him.

[Medhia_Nox]

I think its not quite the same plot because there's more of a sense that a compromise could be found there. If Dorian is straight then there's always the possibility that he'll run into a nice Mage girl with a decent blood line who he's OK with marrying, whereas Dorian being gay means that any marriage would be unacceptable to him.

 

Which is funny... because if Dorian were ACTUALLY promiscuous... marrying and leaving the wench miserable and alone wouldn't be as much a problem for him while he whores around with whatever dudes he can haul back the estate for a shag. 

 

That he actually has standards of living not only for himself - but for any potential marriage - is one of the few (for me) qualities I like about him.

[mopotter]

What preaching? That you should use mind-control superpowers to change your children's sexuality against their will? That's not really a moral. Even if you try and generally it to just "don't try to change your children's sexuality against their will" it's still not really preachy - it's a truism.

This is how I saw it.    I've heard of parents who send their kids to some kind of "camp" to be "turned straight".   Dorian's father just wanted to use magic to "fix" his kid.  They don't need fixing and the story, for me, did a good job with this.  I also did not find it preaching - but a truism.

[CronoDragoon]

I mentioned above: "conversion therapy" was raised as a hot topic at some point in the recent past in the US.

Seems to me that Dorian's "loyalty quest" was a sock puppet used to raise this issue and preach about it.

 

The magic factor is just the flavor and the excuse to insert it into the setting.

 

The quest is not meant to show that brainwashing your child is bad: that's obvious. The quest is meant to show that bloodlines and their continuation is such a massive deal in Tevinter that parents would consider this for their child.

 

BioWare has used character quests to illustrate some point about the world of their games and thereby define the character's approval or disapproval of that particular aspect for ages now. It's probably most apparent in Mass Effect 1 where characters are mostly just info dispensers, but it's like that in Dragon Age as well.

 

The quest is obviously meant to also reflect the real life problems that gay people have had with their parents. It really paints someone in a bad light to interpet this being represented in a game as "preaching," because it implies that this particular form of relating real-life experience is bad (because it deals with sexual orientation, I suppose) whereas literally every other form of it is fine.

 

Curiously, I don't hear nearly as much complaining about how Sera's character quest "preaches" about class inequality. I wonder why that form of "preaching" is ok but not this one?

[Wulfram]

Curiously, I don't hear nearly as much complaining about how Sera's character quest "preaches" about class inequality. I wonder why that form of "preaching" is ok but not this one?

I think Sera's own character and actions tends to overwhelm any message from that quest. The questionable morality (and sheer annoyingness) of her own actions work against a sense of preachiness.

Also, it may be political but its not especially tied to current politics. Or the Socialist in me would argue that it is, but people don't tend to think of it that way at the moment.

[In Exile]

I mentioned above: "conversion therapy" was raised as a hot topic at some point in the recent past in the US.
Seems to me that Dorian's "loyalty quest" was a sock puppet used to raise this issue and preach about it.

The magic factor is just the flavor and the excuse to insert it into the setting.

But my point is that conversion therapy isn't a controversy, and DAI doesn't even address conversion therapy - it addresses some made up equivalent of it using mind control. Some loons believe you should forcibly try to change sexuality over the protests of the person, but that's about as respectable a counterview as, say, racism. A game isn't preaching if it tells you trite stuff like racism is bad - that's basically all of act 2 in TW2 on Iorveth's path.

[In Exile]

I think Sera's own character and actions tends to overwhelm any message from that quest. The questionable morality (and sheer annoyingness) of her own actions work against a sense of preachiness.

Also, it may be political but its not especially tied to current politics. Or the Socialist in me would argue that it is, but people don't tend to think of it that way at the moment.

It seems to me that since 2008 a far bigger political issue globally - even in the US and Canada - is class inequality. So I'm not sure that's true at all. There's a vocal minority that froths at the mouth when sexuality is in issue, but I'm not even sure that this minority is larger that the one that froths at the mouth when e.g., class inequality is at issue.

[Who Knows]

Dorian's sexual orientation was integral to his romance? You don't say.

It's possible for a gay love interest to have a romance that doesn't have gay angst.

[In Exile]

It's possible for a gay love interest to have a romance that doesn't have gay angst.

How is that different from regular angst?

[Who Knows]

How is that different from regular angst?

Sometimes I feel like people are responding without having actually seen or remembering Dorian's romance.

His romance has angst specifically about being a man sexually interested in only men. It's not a brief unimportant tidbit.

I'm not saying having gay angst is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I personally enjoyed that in his romance because it made things more emotional for me. But let's not pretend that Dorian's homosexuality wasn't important and that it's interchangeable with something else. It's not.

[In Exile]

Sometimes I feel like people are responding without having actually seen or remembering Dorian's romance.
His romance has angst specifically about being a man sexually interested in only men. It's not a brief unimportant tidbit.
I'm not saying having gay angst is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I personally enjoyed that in his romance because it made things more emotional for me. But let's not pretend that Dorian's homosexuality wasn't important and that it's interchangeable with something else. It's not.

I'm not saying it didn't have whatever "gay angst" is meant to represent. I just have no idea what it is - I've never seen the term before. As far as I can remember the stuff related to his sexuality was the stuff everyone got to see like with his quest. As far as I can recall the romance was about his abandonment issues.

[Who Knows]

I'm not saying it didn't have whatever "gay angst" is meant to represent. I just have no idea what it is - I've never seen the term before. As far as I can remember the stuff related to his sexuality was the stuff everyone got to see like with his quest. As far as I can recall the romance was about his abandonment issues.

Seems kind of obvious. Gay angst is angst having to do with homosexuality.

In the romance scene, the angst is about gay men not taking things further than sex because only sex is accepted, not committed relationships. The abandonment issue is directly related to Dorian being gay and being gay with men.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

As a gay male, I was personally disappointed with how much Dorian's characterization revolved around his homosexuality. I also didn't really appreciate how much he and the game seemed to want me to believe his father was a "good man" that just made a mistake when we're talking about a man that was willing to risk magically lobotomizing his son on the off chance that it might make him straight. He was a sociopath and basically everything other characters have suggested makes Tevinter a country controlled by monsters that will commit any atrocity and hurt anyone for power. I saw nothing "good" in him. 

 

I found it a let down that Sera's romance related to her beliefs about in game inequalities, alternative views on elves that we hadn't really seen before, and just basically a whole host of issues that had nothing to do with her being a lesbian, yet Dorian's personal quest and most of his romance dialog was firmly focused on being gay. His quest related to how being gay ruined his family life. His romance dialog spoke of how men in Tevinter aren't willing to maintain relationships and how he had doubts of finding someone because of his sexuality, specifically. It was a story mostly about a gay man that just happened to also care about other social issues, while Sera's was a story about a woman fighting class inequality that just happened to be a lesbian. To me, that was disappointing, and was an outdated and unfortunate way to write their first gay male character. 

 

That being said, I have to internally roll my eyes at people that whine about the story being "too preachy". It was an outdated and uninteresting story that boiled down what could have been a more interesting character to mostly one trait, but it wasn't "preachy" unless you actually have a problem with being told it's wrong to persecute gays. Persecuting gays is wrong. Persecuting people of other races is wrong. If you have a problem with that narrative, I really couldn't begin to sympathize with you and I see no point in modern media walking on eggshells to make bigots feel better about themselves.    

[Hazegurl]

Sometimes I feel like people are responding without having actually seen or remembering Dorian's romance.

His romance has angst specifically about being a man sexually interested in only men. It's not a brief unimportant tidbit.

I'm not saying having gay angst is necessarily a bad thing. In fact, I personally enjoyed that in his romance because it made things more emotional for me. But let's not pretend that Dorian's homosexuality wasn't important and that it's interchangeable with something else. It's not.

^This. 

There is no way his story could have been replaced with a straight one and be exactly the same.  His entire romantic story line is about finding love and acceptance with a man.

 

Dorian was not attracted to women and because of this he had multiple trysts with men and none of them wanted a relationship with him, expect for one, but by then Dorian had become too fearful to pursue it. This is the reason Dorian is apprehensive during the romance with the IQ.  He didn't want to marry any woman at all which meant he would never have an heir, which would kill his family line.  This is what made Halward desperate enough to try to resort to blood magic. Because Halward and Dorian weren't getting along Dorian caused a scandal by banging nearly every elven male ****** and any other man who would have him, this caused him to get placed in the hands of his mentor (I forgot his name, this was background info in the WoT). Dorian had long since given up on ever finding real love with another man and resorted to drinking to cope with his father issues, lack of love et al.  It's through the romance with the IQ that Dorian finds love with a man like he always wanted.  And even then he spends most of the romance not fully believing in it and thinking he's gonna get left at some point.

 

I can see how with a few rewrites his romance can be redone for a straight romance, but not the way it is now.

[grumpymooselion]

Regardless of gender, orientation or any other aspect of the character, their handling of themselves should be the result of who they are as a character. Their personality, individual wants and experience contrasted by or mingled with those of their culture or religion or what have you - anything really. Never should such things be dictated by concepts such as being a beacon or statue to some ideal, unless they themselves are attempting to be said ideal, and even then, Humans, and thus one assumes non-Human sentients, are flawed. Even when we strive for an ideal, we rarely reach such heights, only scratch upon them, maybe haphazardly scramble upon in the best of cases.

 

Essentially whatever is on show, should be representative of a given character first, never an outside ideal, and their own ideals, while on show, shouldn't be perfect and flawless things. We are who we are, but the disappointment or praise of others is nothing compared to what we often put upon ourselves. That extends to concepts like loyalty, disloyalty, promiscuity and all other manner of such things you might imagine.

 

One might wish to indulge and enjoy themselves, be promiscuous, but experience attachment too easily making that freeform lifestyle impossible. Some people fall in love over nothing. The reverse is also true, some people find falling in love near impossible, and find little but temporary comforts. These are but two examples of the near infinite, countless, ways in which a person might conduct themselves and be challenged by their own nature, and only in reference to love and sex, when our experiences go well, well beyond love and sex.

 

I think, most importantly, I want layers from characters. I obviously speak for no one but myself, in all of what I've said, but many different and multi-faceted characters is a good thing, but I'm not drawn to stories and characters by the fantasies of ideologues. I've never encountered such fantasies. Fantastic characters must still be believable and relateable as actual, layered and flawed people that, like most actual people, something that doesn't make them bad people. Flaws are a natural result of sentient, mortal, life . . . amongst many other things.

 

I'm also quite fond of characters that are, who they are, despite encountering a protagonist. In BG that meant they could leave you, if their morals conflicted with yours too harshly. I think this works for me in orientation as well. I'm not much for player-sexual NPCs. At the same time, I don't think there should be something for everyone, at least not in an obvious way. Imagine with me, for a second, if you could define, through dialogue, your characters as a particular orientation. Maybe it's something others know, maybe it isn't. Now imagine being in a new galaxy and finding . . . no one shares that interest, at least no one that's available.

 

One thing that romances in games often fail to address is loneliness, and how a characters deals with that. With the amount of people, via size of the ship, being brought to Andromeda, it seems unlikely there won't be another of a given orientation, but it's something to think about. Too many game stories have interpreted loneliness as something that happens when you're alone, truly, often in environments devoid of other life. There's something to be said for exploring a character being alone when others are around.

 

I think the ME series actually tried to do a bit of this, in my third play through, that tried to remain mostly Neutral throughout the series. Where others might have a romantic interest, or a picture of their lover or what have you, this third character at a quiet time with dire events impending . . . was alone.

 

It's one of my favorite scenes, in a way. People get so caught up in romances, that they often forget that sometimes you end up alone, even if there are other people around. It's worth exploring a lone sole play through, and I'm curious if there will be another quiet moment, or something they actually build upon this time around.

[Panda]

I think its not quite the same plot because there's more of a sense that a compromise could be found there. If Dorian is straight then there's always the possibility that he'll run into a nice Mage girl with a decent blood line who he's OK with marrying, whereas Dorian being gay means that any marriage would be unacceptable to him.

 

Tevinter is into breeding mages and thus arranged marriages are big thing. Dorian's father and mother had arranged marriage even though they hate each other- Dorian doesn't want that and I think that was big part of him not wanting to comfort to norms, marry a girl, have a loveless marriage and then just have male lovers.

[SofaJockey]

Whilst there is likely to be some objective standard of quality that applies when BioWare write stories,

I find debates about whether plotlines are moving & compelling vs. preaching and pandering 

are saying as much if not more about the attitudes of the individual player that of BioWare.

 

That's not to say that it is wrong for a particular player to not be moved or convinced by a particular plotline,

though that is no reason to advocate that such characters or plots are not included.

[ModernAcademic]

A minority should be represented proportionally to their relative size among the population or the consumers of the product.

 

And who are the "qualified doctors" exactly?

 

No, they shouldn't. The opinion of the majority is often built on a loosely-constructed consensus plagued by ignorance about diverse aspects of the very market they are a part of.

Which is why companies don't listen to consumers when creating new games. They hire qualified people and specialists, the minority which has the necessary knowledge, training and experience to deliver a product that is aimed to satisfy their desires, in a way they can't even conceive very well.

[SnakeCode]

companies don't listen to consumers when creating new games.

 

Lol.

[Blueblood]

I get that representation can be important, but maybe people need to stop expecting all games, books and movies to represent every possible person that exists, or even represent anyone at all. The writers aren't necassarily saying that "Hey, this is what gay people are like" or "Hey, this is what women are like" just "Hey this is what this particular character is like." BUT I also know that stereotypes are a thing, and if the writers really are just sticking to tried and true stereotypes and not looking to freshen things up, then yeh that can be just as bad I guess. But I don't think Bioware are being lazy.

[Laughing_Man]

The quest is not meant to show that brainwashing your child is bad: that's obvious. The quest is meant to show that bloodlines and their continuation is such a massive deal in Tevinter that parents would consider this for their child.

 

...

 

The quest is obviously meant to also reflect the real life problems that gay people have had with their parents. It really paints someone in a bad light to interpet this being represented in a game as "preaching," because it implies that this particular form of relating real-life experience is bad (because it deals with sexual orientation, I suppose) whereas literally every other form of it is fine.

 

Curiously, I don't hear nearly as much complaining about how Sera's character quest "preaches" about class inequality. I wonder why that form of "preaching" is ok but not this one?

 

The way I see it, with Dorian there's a much more interesting aspect to his personality and desires than his homosexuality.

 

Meaning, his fight for a saner Tavinter. (the war table quest chain)

 

I believe that the choice to go for the sexuality related daddy issues loyalty quest, had nothing to do with wanting to show a different aspect of Tavinter culture, and everything to do with using the game to preach about homosexuality.

 

It is clear to me that a potentially much more interesting quest line was dropped just to be able to do political preaching.

 

Which is why I care about this issue to begin with - the quality of the game and its writing should come first, not political opinions and sexual orientations.

 

 

As for Sera, her quest was directly related to inquisition business, and her whole outlook is so inherently illogical and unrefined, that any kind of

political preaching is lost anyway.

 

But my point is that conversion therapy isn't a controversy, and DAI doesn't even address conversion therapy - it addresses some made up equivalent of it using mind control. Some loons believe you should forcibly try to change sexuality over the protests of the person, but that's about as respectable a counterview as, say, racism. A game isn't preaching if it tells you trite stuff like racism is bad - that's basically all of act 2 in TW2 on Iorveth's path.

 

Should an adult homosexual be allowed to apply for "conversion therapy" of his own free will?

That's the point of controversy, not mind control and forcing children to go, that's obvious. The blood magic is just the Fantasy flavor, nothing more.

 

And it doesn't matter that you claim truism, every preacher believes that they are in the right.

 

The point is that video games shouldn't be diminished by using them as yet another tool to preach political opinions.

Yes, some influence is inevitable, but this case seems rather overt to me.

 

No, they shouldn't. The opinion of the majority is often built on a loosely-constructed consensus plagued by ignorance about diverse aspects of the very market they are a part of.

Which is why companies don't listen to consumers when creating new games. They hire qualified people and specialists, the minority which has the necessary knowledge, training and experience to deliver a product that is aimed to satisfy their desires, in a way they can't even conceive very well.

 

Let me guess, you are British and you voted against leaving the EU, and now (boohoo) you lost your faith in democracy?...

 

I don't see why examples of homosexuality and representation of minorities need to be inflated in video games just to appeal to a minority of the consumer base.

 

If you aim your game at a specific demographic, sure, do whatever you want, but a product aimed at the general population should more or less reflect reality.(or at least the reality of its consumer base.)

 

There are no experts on the topic of minority representation in games (aside from agenda driven self-proclaimed ones), there are only opinionated individuals. And the reason for this is obvious: The topic is hardly objective or scientific, and equating it to medicine for example is utter lunacy.

[Hazegurl]

Tevinter is into breeding mages and thus arranged marriages are big thing. Dorian's father and mother had arranged marriage even though they hate each other- Dorian doesn't want that and I think that was big part of him not wanting to comfort to norms, marry a girl, have a loveless marriage and then just have male lovers.

Sure the Vints are about breeding the perfect mage.  However, I doubt Halward would have risked his relationship with Dorian over a simple matter of good breeding. The Pavus bloodline was on the line, something very important to noble houses. If Dorian had found a woman he loved or knocked up some other woman, they wouldn't have been pleased but it would have been better than watching their entire House fall. 

 

------

 

As for representation in games. I don't care if a dev has an agenda behind the content they create, the only thing that should matter is whether or not it's good, well written, and enjoyable. If it's not enjoyable to someone based solely on the fact that it exists then I think that is the problem of the individual.  I don't believe that products should reflect only the majority and everyone else should be reduced to niche markets and side content, especially products that are made to be released worldwide.  Who becomes the majority in a world wide market?  Should BW make all their character's Chinese if their product is going to be marketed in China? They are the most populated country in the world.  There is a reason why the phrase "The tyranny of the majority" exists.

[Solas]

Let me guess, you are British and you voted against leaving the EU, and now (boohoo) you lost your faith in democracy?...

 

is brexit mentions the new godwin's law? lmfao

[Heathen Oxman]

Sure the Vints are about breeding the perfect mage.  However, I doubt Halward would have risked his relationship with Dorian over a simple matter of good breeding. The Pavus bloodline was on the line, something very important to noble houses. If Dorian had found a woman he loved or knocked up some other woman, they wouldn't have been pleased but it would have been better than watching their entire House fall. 

 

------

 

As for representation in games. I don't care if a dev has an agenda behind the content they create, the only thing that should matter is whether or not it's good, well written, and enjoyable. If it's not enjoyable to someone based solely on the fact that it exists then I think that is the problem of the individual.  I don't believe that products should reflect only the majority and everyone else should be reduced to niche markets and side content, especially products that are made to be released worldwide.  Who becomes the majority in a world wide market?  Should BW make all their character's Chinese if their product is going to be marketed in China? They are the most populated country in the world.  There is a reason why the phrase "The tyranny of the majority" exists.

 

I always thought the whole, "games should reflect real life statistics" argument so deliciously weird.

 

I live in the South Eastern U.S., and there's an Asian market (literary called "Asian Market") down the street from me. There's objectively more whites and hispanics in the surrounding area, but if I walked into the market and told the manager, "Whites are the majority around here. It's not right to pander to Asians when there are objectively more whites. Businesses should reflect real world statistics!" I'd be rightly considered a douche canoe.

 

The last time I checked, game studios are private entities and games are commercial products. They have a right to "pander, or not "pander" to pretty much whoever they want. If you don't like the features of a particular game, take your money elsewhere. The only thing developers "should" do is design the game according to their vision. If a developer wants to populate their in-game world with biracial, pansexual, genderqueer, midgets, then they are perfectly free to do so, and anyone who objects can......just not by the game. Simple.

 

I swear, some people act like video games are a public service or a human right. Nothing is quite so sad as someone who gets ultra-butthurt because every single game isn't created with their particular sensibilities in mind. I wonder if they go in McDonald's and scream and yell because Micky D's doesn't serve pizza.