216 réponses à ce sujet

[Laughing_Man]

Not really. The krogan as a collective are comical fools. They only pose a "threat" if given FTL technology they are incapable of coming up with themselves.

 

This is obviously false. The Krogan rebellions are a major trauma for the Citadel, and if they relied on outside technology and knowledge to this degree

(which is unlikely - remember, the Krogan were smart enough to develop on their own nuclear weapons), the war would have been over much quicker,

probably without the need to resort to the genophage - which was used as a weapon of last resort.

 

And now this same genophage is failing even without Krogan scientists working to counter it...

 

The Krogan don't need top of the line technology to threaten the MW, with their explosive birth rate they are the ME version of WH40K Orks.

 

Also, gameplay consideration aside, realistically, every Krogan veteran (i.e. not cannon fodder pups) should be the equivalent of a boss fight -

considering their love for oversized weapons, thick armor and vehicle-grade kinetic barriers (they can afford to carry those weights easily) -

regular infantry simply don't stand a chance against them.

[Jukaga]

There has never been an 'evil' choice in Mass Effect. Extreme solutions to existential crises are not evil, they are pragmatic and put priorities first. Given the stakes, nothing Shepard could do in the three games was evil, the alternative was extinction for all advanced life.

[straykat]

There has never been an 'evil' choice in Mass Effect. Extreme solutions to existential crises are not evil, they are pragmatic and put priorities first. Given the stakes, nothing Shepard could do in the three games was evil, the alternative was extinction for all advanced life.

 

I think denying the Salarian medigel in Thane's mission was pretty evil

 

It's just so unnecessary to me. Even on my Renegade characters.

[Jukaga]

I think denying the Salarian medigel in Thane's mission was pretty evil

 

It's just so unnecessary to me. Even on my Renegade characters.

 

Pragmatic resource allocation. The Salarian could do nothing to help the mission, and the medigel might be necessary for the team given the unknown amount of mercs on site. Not a paramedic, I'm here on a mission. (yes cutscene medigel doesn't use up in-game medigel, just giving a RP rationale)

 

By corollary, do you treat the Batarian in Mordin's recruitment mission?

[straykat]

Pragmatic resource allocation. The Salarian could do nothing to help the mission, and the medigel might be necessary for the team given the unknown amount of mercs on site. Not a paramedic, I'm here on a mission. (yes cutscene medigel doesn't use up in-game medigel, just giving a RP rationale)

 

By corollary, do you treat the Batarian in Mordin's recruitment mission?

 

I do.. since he's so dead set on thinking humans are responsible. And considering I'm working with Cerberus, I'd rather play that down.

 

At the same time, you can still get renegade points just with your dialogue. What I really don't like about Paragon is the bleeding heart Superman cheesiness in the way they speak.

[Jukaga]

I do.. since he's so dead set on thinking humans are responsible. And considering I'm working with Cerberus, I'd rather play that down.

 

At the same time, you can still get renegade points just with your dialogue. What I really don't like about Paragon is the bleeding heart Superman cheesiness in the way they speak.

 

Ah since I primarily play Mindoir Shepards, I let him choke on his spittle. Who cares who he thinks is responsible? He won't be able to tell anyone about it. All anyone will hear is that a human and salarian cured the plague, he's just one more batarian for the pile.

 

And as you pointed out you avoid Captain DoGood Shepard's speech.

[In Exile]

The problem is that at the end even at the end of ME1 where you talk to Udina and Anderson and you pick who will be the new human councilor, there is a dialogue option where Shepard openly admits that killing the Council was basically a way to assassinate them and to let humanity take over. My feeling is that while the renegade might have started out as an "ends justified means" type personality, but that is always a path down the dark side that can be used in justifying everything from bigotry to crimes to war to genocide. Both in-game and in real life.

Plus the many fascist and racist options that fall under the aegis of renegade (and give you points). Bioware shoved a lot of values and ideas under paragon and renegade and unfortunately renegade got a lot of crazy and violent ones.

[straykat]

Ah since I primarily play Mindoir Shepards, I let him choke on his spittle. Who cares who he thinks is responsible? He won't be able to tell anyone about it. All anyone will hear is that a human and salarian cured the plague, he's just one more batarian for the pile.

 

And as you pointed out you avoid Captain DoGood Shepard's speech.

 

Mindoir makes sense. I'm just playing one final time on a new PC copy and just went defaults. I actually just finished Thane's mission today, so the Salarian was fresh in my memory.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Agreed. Love playing evil. I don't understand those "I can't go through with it" and "I feel so bad afterwards :(" posts. I find most evil choice to be hilarious. Especially the victim's reaction before they die.

 

In the wise words of the Warden PC:

"You like to make a killing? Me too!"

[straykat]

Agreed. Love playing evil. I don't understand those "I can't go through with it" and "I feel so bad afterwards :(" posts. I find most evil choice to be hilarious. Especially the victim's reaction before they die.

 

In the wise words of the Warden PC:

"You like to make a killing? Me too!"

 

I'm with you.. but I'm actually in the mood to switch modes a bit if I play this new game. 

 

But not sure I could tolerate strictly Paragon dialogue.

[Malanek]

Renegade isn't evil and has never been portrayed as that. It wasn't always consistent however, it ranged between being ruthlessly efficient, vengefully unforgiving, and simply being a jerk. Didn't they say the were dumping the paragon/renegade morality system for MEA and leaving it to the player to decide what was right or wrong?

[straykat]

Renegade isn't evil and has never been portrayed as that. It wasn't always consistent however, it ranged between being ruthlessly efficient, vengefully unforgiving, and simply being a jerk. Didn't they say the were dumping the paragon/renegade morality system for MEA and leaving it to the player to decide what was right or wrong?

 

I hope there's still something to it though. They (Montreal) were pretty cool with what they did in the Omega DLC. 

[themikefest]

Renegade is awesome. If you want to see how awesome renegade is, though I call it more paragon, click on the link in my signature to read about the playthrough.

 

The closest thing I've seen to evil is in DA2 where Hawke can let Meredith kill Bethany

[straykat]

Renegade is awesome. If you want to see how awesome renegade is, though I call it more paragon, click on the link in my signature to read about the playthrough.

 

The closest thing I've seen to evil is in DA2 where Hawke can let Meredith kill Bethany

 

The Warden is worse imo. Like selling out the City Elves for a stupid Con boost. Worse even if you're a City Elf yourself. Same with intentionally putting demons inside kids. Although Hawke can do that with Feynriel too.

[fhs33721]

There has never been an 'evil' choice in Mass Effect. Extreme solutions to existential crises are not evil, they are pragmatic and put priorities first. Given the stakes, nothing Shepard could do in the three games was evil, the alternative was extinction for all advanced life.

Hmmm, let's see.

• Pouring acid over a sentinent being, which was perfectly contained an no threat at the moment (partially a fault of game design since the only other option is to free it)
• Constantly making xenophobic remarks, even though half your crew consists of aliens (not evil, but still a hilariously d*ckish move).
• Slaughtering a whole village full of mind controlled people just because you are to lazy to use the non-lethal munition you have avaiable.
• Shooting a prisoner that surrendered (without fight no less) and willingly gave you all the information you wanted in the face because...... no real reason really.
• After finding out that Cerberus horifically tortured an autistic teenager for some already morally ambigious experiment, leave said teenager in Cerberus' care.
• Kill Samara in order to replace her with her (at best) equally strong daughter, who happens to me an unapologetic serial murderer with a literal addiction to killing people, which even promts her to try kill you after the collector base.
• Saving a woman out from an exploding building, allow her mother to commit suicide, and then shoot her in the face.... just because... It wouldn't have been personal enough to let her die in the explosion I guess.

Yes truly, these are all actions of pure pragmatism. In no way are any of these completely needlessly cruel or even downright detrimential to you (*cough* Morinth *cough*). Renegade Shepard is truly a shining hero of logical thinking and getting priorities right if s/he makes these choices and in no way is s/he an unhinged sociopath for pulling off this kind of cr*p.

[ljos1690]

Renegade isn't evil and has never been portrayed as that. It wasn't always consistent however, it ranged between being ruthlessly efficient, vengefully unforgiving, and simply being a jerk. Didn't they say the were dumping the paragon/renegade morality system for MEA and leaving it to the player to decide what was right or wrong?

I agree with you for the most part but at the same time I think good and evil is all about perspective. On the outside looking in, renegade Shepard can be viewed as evil. From the point of view of a civilian they let die for example, people they let suffer or even by real life standards, but to another solider, a friend, or us as the player, we might see his/ her descions as nessesary, pragmatic or for the greater good. So it really depends, some see renegade as evil and some see renegade as pragmatic.

[straykat]

 

• Saving woman out from an exploding building, allow her mother to commit suicide, and then shoot her in the face.... just because... It wouldn't have been personal enough to let her die in the explosion I guess.

 

This one's especially odd because you do save them in the cutscene, as you said. 

 

But I do think the Ardat Yakshi are a problem. Fortunately, there's just one here. 

[Reorte]

Too much is shoved under the Paragon and Renegade banners. Sometimes the Renegade option is pragmatic, sometimes it's just being a jerk. "Killing them because they might be a threat later" is sometimes pragmatic, sometimes just extremely paranoid and obnoxious. The same sort of thing is true with Paragon, where it may be genuinely helpful and building everyone up, it may be avoiding unnecessary bloodshed, or it may just be being pathetically naive. The words "paragon" and "renegade" aren't really that good choices, and if it's taking a more DAO approach for Andromeda I'm all for that.

I think that you need all of those choices, although within a degree of bounding (i.e. not so extreme that the character would never have got to the position they start the game in).

Personally I don't get any pleasure out of being a jerk to every character I meet (although I got a lot of pleasure out of it with some of them).

[straykat]

Personally I don't get any pleasure out of being a jerk to every character I meet (although I got a lot of pleasure out of it with some of them).

 

Me either, but I get even less pleasure out of sounding like a dweeb.

 

If they simply improved the writing for Paragon, I'd enjoy it more.

[Jukaga]

Hmmm, let's see.

• Pouring acid over a sentinent being, which was perfectly contained an no threat at the moment (partially a fault of game design since the only other option is to free it)
• Constantly making xenophobic remarks, even though half your crew consists of aliens (not evil, but still a hilariously d*ck move).
• Slaughtering a whole village full of mind controlled people just because you are to lazy to use the non-lethal munition you have avaiable.
• Shooting a prisoner that surrendered (without fight no less) and willingly gave you all the information you wanted in the face because...... no real reason really.
• After finding out that Cerberus horifically tortured an autistic teenager for some already morally ambigious experiment, leave said teenager in Cerberus' care.
• Kill Samara in order to replace her with her (at best) equally strong daughter, who happens to me an unapologetic serial murderer with a literal addiction to killing people, which even promts her to try kill you after the collector base.
• Saving a woman out from an exploding building, allow her mother to commit suicide, and then shoot her in the face.... just because... It wouldn't have been personal enough to let her die in the explosion I guess.

Yes truly, these are all actions of pure pragmatism. In no way are any of these completely needlessly cruel or even downright detrimential to you (*cough* Morinth *cough*). Renegade Shepard is truly a shining hero of logical thinking and getting priorities right if s/he makes these choices and in now way is s/he an unhinged sociopath for pulling of this kind of cr*p.

 

1. Eliminating the rachni queen is a solid, pragmatic choice. Balance the detailed knowledge of the Rachni Wars vs. talking to it for 5 minutes. It will say anything to save itself.

 

2. Not evil, just a dick move as you say.

 

3. What guarantee do you have that it will work? Shepard doesn't know the nature of the contagion yet, the choice to kill them can be justified. (never did that myself, just spitballin')

 

4. Which prisoner? Rana Thanoptis? Plenty of reason to think she was indoctrinated and guess what! She was!

 

5. If you accept that the Geth are a mortal threat to civilization and that David is un-salvageable, then it becomes a regrettable necessity to continue the project.

 

6. Yeah, that's just dumb. Only ever did it to unlock dominate then reload. There should be an option to waste them both.

 

7. Can't blame the player for cutscenes taking away their agency. It's quite possible that a) Samara has directly threatened you and no matter what she says, why trust an Ardot-Yakshi? Better safe than sorry. Personally I would have nuked the site from orbit afterwards to clean up any other possible stragglers.

 

Alternatively, if you must insist Ren-Shep is evil, I give you The Operative

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=YeT7MzDcpeg

 

Since we don't know if Shep actually does survive high EMS destroy, she doesn't get to live in the better world she fought for.

 

(I could sworn we had an embed video button on this forum, too lazy to do it manually)

[straykat]

 

 

7. Can't blame the player for cutscenes taking away their agency. It's quite possible that a) Samara has directly threatened you and no matter what she says, why trust an Ardot-Yakshi? Better safe than sorry. Personally I would have nuked the site from orbit afterwards to clean up any other possible stragglers.

 

[rapscallioness]

If "grey" means that your choices and consequences have both a win and a loss aspect to it, then I'm all for more "grey" situations.

 

If grey means that your PC tone and response is like an unsalted wafer when want you want is steak and potatoes, then no to "grey".

 

For me, renegade isn't about going around slitting everyone's throats. It's about your PC exhibiting some kind of backbone. Authority in their tone of voice; a directness in their actions. Letting it be known that the PC is not having any of your BS.

[fhs33721]

1. Eliminating the rachni queen is a solid, pragmatic choice. Balance the detailed knowledge of the Rachni Wars vs. talking to it for 5 minutes. It will say anything to save itself.

 

2. Not evil, just a dick move as you say.

 

3. What guarantee do you have that it will work? Shepard doesn't know the nature of the contagion yet, the choice to kill them can be justified. (never did that myself, just spitballin')

 

4. Which prisoner? Rana Thanoptis? Plenty of reason to think she was indoctrinated and guess what! She was!

 

5. If you accept that the Geth are a mortal threat to civilization and that David is un-salvageable, then it becomes a regrettable necessity to continue the project.

 

6. Yeah, that's just dumb. Only ever did it to unlock dominate then reload. There should be an option to waste them both.

 

7. Can't blame the player for cutscenes taking away their agency. It's quite possible that a) Samara has directly threatened you and no matter what she says, why trust an Ardot-Yakshi? Better safe than sorry. Personally I would have nuked the site from orbit afterwards to clean up any other possible stragglers.

 

Alternatively, if you must insist Ren-Shep is evil, I give you The Operative

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=YeT7MzDcpeg

 

Since we don't know if Shep actually does survive high EMS destroy, she doesn't get to live in the better world she fought for.

 

(I could sworn we had an embed video button on this forum, too lazy to do it manually)

1. Absolutely not. The Rachni queen is safely imprisioned and there is literally zero reason to pour acid over her unless you like watching living, sentinent beings being dissolved by acid. There should have been some sort of "Let the council decide what to do option" because as it is the only options are either letting a potentially very dangerous being free or murdering someone horribly for no perceivable reason.

 

3. Really? A group of highly capable trained soldiers is not capable of trying out the non-lethal grenades at least once against a bunch of untrained, badly armed civilians who are not really in prime condition to begin with due to being in constant pain from Thorian induced minf-f*ckery?

 

4. Was talking about Shiala.

 

5. And you really think that it is a pragmatic (or even remotely sane) idea to enable Cerberus, a known terrorist organization that tortures autistic teenagers, to work on a project that might gain them control over the Geth, who you perceive as threat to civilization?

 

7. I'm not blaming the player. I'm blaming the character Shepard, who does indeed drag Falere out of danger only to shoot her personally. Grade A Sociopathy right there.

 

Also Ren-Shep who does any of these things doesn't create a better world. They just wrack up a higher number of dead people than Paragon Shepard while saving the galaxy.

[straykat]

 

 

Also Ren-Shep who does any of these things doesn't create a better world. They just wrack up a higher number of dead people than Paragon Shepard while saving the galaxy.

 

While I agree with you, that has nothing to do with what you're supposed to do anyways. No one said you had to make a better world -- in all of these aspects at least. You just have to make a better world when it comes to the Reapers.

[UpUpAway95]

3. What guarantee do you have that it will work? Shepard doesn't know the nature of the contagion yet, the choice to kill them can be justified. (never did that myself, just spitballin')

 

 

How can it be really justified?  (Nothwithstanding that pretty much any evil person is likely to justify whatever they do in their own heads.)

 

Even if you don't trust the grenades to work, you're also well trained in melee tactics and well armored, so it would make more sense to at least try to punch out the first four colonists in the garage.  After discovering that it does work, it would also make the most practical sense to continue on with trying to punch out as many as possible.  Saving the colonists also makes sense from the POV of allowing the doctors and scientists in the colony time to determine whether or not a human can eventually recover from the influences of the Thorian spores, something that might be real handy for the Council to know should another Thorian ever be encountered.  Killing them takes away any opportunity to study the effect of removing the source of the infection. 

 

IMO, killing the colonists on Feros is truly an unjustifiable, evil action... not a pragmatic one.  You're just helping Exo-Geni implement a cover-up.

 

 

5. If you accept that the Geth are a mortal threat to civilization and that David is un-salvageable, then it becomes a regrettable necessity to continue the project.

 

... and what would cause you to think that David is "un-salvageable."  Shepard's statement that Davil "will never be the same again."  No one is ever the same again after having been tortured, but that doesn't ever make them "un-salvageable" nor would it excuse allowing the torture to continue.  Allowing the torture to continue is also a truly evil action.