105 réponses à ce sujet

[Seraphim24]

Sometimes PA should kill you, or others, or both. That's how it works in reality, the least it people can do is make it happen in a video game.

[AlanC9]

Certainly not Mass Effect fans, particularly anyone that tried the refuse ending.

I'm not sure Refuse is a really great example of what we're talking about. First, Refuse isn't actually a mistake; it does pretty much what a sensible player should expect it to do; you pick it when your Shepard figures losing is better than winning with the Crucible. Second, plenty of players complained about it anyway. Some of them might even have been honest about expecting the Reapers to lose when picking that option.
 

Apply some consequence to this line. They can't actually call security on Shep because s/he is a Spectre and has a writ to investigate Benezia, and even Noveria doesn't want to ****** off the council. Let's say that, however, Kaira Stirling overhears this and is a little pissed off. So in an act of impotent defiance, she assigns a member of Port Hanshan security to conspicuously shadow you and make sure you don't get into any trouble.

Sure, but it's not like this should have been a necessary consequence, right? Just a possible one, and there are always going to be possible consequences that don't get in because they fail an ROI check.
 
This is an example of a bad way to implement a failed player choice; too expensive for the payoff. Even if we agree on not doing that one, it still doesn't say much about Implementing other failed player choices.

[Ophir147]

Sometimes PA should kill you, or others, or both. That's how it works in reality, the least it people can do is make it happen in a video game.

 

How many people do you know that have been killed irl for passive aggressive remarks? Do you live in North Korea? (serious question)

[rashie]

I'm all for it, as long as it also applies to punishing people who thinks being a naive idealist all the time is a good thing, and how if you come across as naive characters will start taking advantage of your PC. More reactivity in all directions is always good.

 

The world doesn't work in a way where it owes you anything for just being a nice person, and player characters acting like that should get burned.

[In Exile]

I'm all for it, as long as it also applies to punishing people who thinks being a naive idealist all the time is a good thing, and how if you come across as naive characters will start taking advantage of your PC. More reactivity in all directions is always good.

 

The world doesn't work in a way where it owes you anything for just being a nice person, and player characters acting like that should get burned.

 

Sure, but what's being a "naive idealist"? I bet that if we try and list it out in ME, we won't come to the same conclusion at all. 

[Kroitz]

How many people do you know that have been killed irl for passive aggressive remarks? Do you live in North Korea? (serious question)

 
Just draw a unflattering picture of santa claus and you are set up to be visited by killer-commando elves.
 
Elves can't handle passive aggressive behaviour.
  
 

Sometimes PA should kill you, or others, or both. That's how it works in reality ...

 
Merry christmas.

[Seraphim24]

How many people do you know that have been killed irl for passive aggressive remarks? Do you live in North Korea? (serious question)

 

Not for passive aggressive remarks, PA as a whole, some people embrace it as a lifelong philosophy and life tends not to go very well.

 

Although lets be real a lot of IRL violence is triggered by that "one PA comment" someone makes to get under someone else's skin.

[Lady Artifice]

 

I, for one, would love to know the statistics on violence born of passive aggression. 

 

Because that theory sounds like nonsense. 

[Seraphim24]

^

 

I just said it could happen, because it can, I didn't promise a wealth of statistics.

 

Anyway, if you look at half of the statistics where someone was responsible for antagonizing someone else to commit some crime against them or other people, those comments were probably PA.

 

I don't really want to delve into that, because it's quite grisly. A lot of people are just really PA and so refuse romantic relationships, the lack of connection to another person or any other person eventually cripples them mentally physically and they have much shorter lifespan, I kind of count those too the point is it can have rather severe and deadly consequences.

 

The odds of a typical remark being that way are small, but that's not the whole story.

[Lady Artifice]

Another good reason not to delve into it, apart from the grisliness, is because it's nonsense. A case can be made for a person's general attitude contributing to their overall health, because there's actual research behind that, but trying to dramatize one method of unhealthy communication as being a significant source of violence is utterly baseless. 

[Seraphim24]

^

 

It is not utterly  basis, around half of all violence in the world I'd guess is a response to PA, it's like 50% PA to trigger and 50% physical violence in response.

 

Do you have evidence that most violence is not based on PA but just actual aggression?

 

At any rate,  my initial point was simply that it can happen.

[nfi42]

^

 

It is not utterly  basis, around half of all violence in the world I'd guess is a response to PA, it's like 50% PA to trigger and 50% physical violence in response.

 

Do you have evidence that most violence is not based on PA but just actual aggression?

 

You made the claim,  you provide the evidence.

[Seraphim24]

You made the claim,  you provide the evidence.

 

I have, pretty much.

[nfi42]

where

[Seraphim24]

^

 

I said if you look at cases involving serious aggression/murder, most of those involve one party's PA remarks or egging on as a basis for the eventual violence. In fact, there is a category where it's treated differently if someone else provoked the act legally, then I said I don't really want to get into it because it's kind of grisly.

 

So it can certainly lead to death, and based on all the incidents I've read, it seems somewhat commonplace.

 

And it's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how PA negatively affects society and people.

[Lady Artifice]

Kefka, your theories aren't evidence. They're theories. 

[nfi42]

^

 

I said if you look at cases involving serious aggression/murder, most of those involve one party's PA remarks or egging on as a basis for the eventual violence. In fact, there is a category where it's treated differently if someone else provoked the act legally, then I said I don't really want to get into it because it's kind of grisly.

 

So it can certainly lead to death, and based on all the incidents I've read, it seems somewhat commonplace.

 

And it's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how PA negatively affects society and people.

 

As I thought,  your making it up.  This is not evidence.

[Seraphim24]

Ok I don't think either of you two are really reading my posts right now so I'm going to take a break.

[nfi42]

It's because we're reading your posts that we're asking for evidence of your assertions.

 

Taking a break is wise.

[Seraphim24]

As I thought,  your making it up.  This is not evidence.

 

How is that not evidence? A "case" I've "read" I was thinking of ones I read from some years ago but you can find more recent ones as well.

 

Just look up anything where the theme is one party's provocation to violence, that provocation is typically PA.

[Shadow Recon117]

Passive Aggressiveness should be defined according to common-sense interpretations, obviously, 1)I feel there should be a verbal push and peaceful political movement to have it punished in real life as well, for the purposes of this discussion game I would like to see progress in this respect simply in a game theoretic context.

 

I got the idea from a thread in TESO which discussed the possibility of negative repercussions for passive aggressive behavior, such as, if people are deliberately choosing the wrong responses, being contrarian, these sorts of things, the NPC might not give them a quest, might give them a lower reward, or just might not even talk to them anymore.

 

You can die to bullets and and everything else in a video game, why not die on your own obstinate pride?

 

Of course, the possibility for implementations are limitless, as are punishments and such for that kind of thing, so I think it would be cool if in MEA we get some kind of tool or gimmick, akin to the "Renegade options" but just for more than just the typical thing. I would like to see these things go further, even micro amounts of passive aggression could be taken seriously and 2)hinder your ability to complete the game.

 

If you for instance insist on it too much in conversation with certain NPCs, or on quests, as stated you can no longer complete the game, perhaps build up a meter, you are simply rendered unfit for duty by the high command and such, and your character is terminated.

 

It could also be as small as  3)I said less monetary reward for the quest and stuff like that, I think it would be great to incentivize non-whininess or otherwise being an annoying loser.

 

1) I too thing that people that think differently from me should be punished just for being who they are.

 

2) If you want to punish a player for being an ******* then fine. Stopping them from completing a game because they aren't nice is terrible design and no game dev would ever do it, especially a rpg dev.

 

3) Only thing in here that's practical.

[Seraphim24]

^

 

It would improve your life though? You clearly have PA problems... I think it's a good idea.

 

And Artifice and Nfi.... like if there is a paradigm that says you can't do this then you would be compelled to improve your behavior, I can't see why that's a bad thing.

[nfi42]

A case i've read is evidence.  LMAO.

[Lady Artifice]

How is that not evidence? A "case" I've "read" I was thinking of ones I read from some years ago but you can find more recent ones as well.

 

Just look up anything where the theme is one party's provocation to violence, that provocation is typically PA.

 

 

Because vague claims based on secondhand information without any proof, specifics, or source provided don't fit the definition of the word "evidence."

[straykat]

I can't even recall being passive aggressive in games.. but I'm sure someone has an example.. The whole medium is kind of about escapism and living out fantasies, right?

 

It would seem that even passive aggressive people would like to do what they can't in reality when it comes to games. While anyone who isn't passive aggressive will just do more of the same.