92 réponses à ce sujet

[FlyingSquirrel]

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You're talking about a 50k year cycles, here. I really doubt any civilization lasts that long without encountering a better predator than themselves. Plus, I don't believe the Protheans thought of it. Wasn't Javik their leader before things went to pot? What did they do?.. stuck their heads in sand and opted to sleep in stasis pods until the threat was over. Personally, I see no value to the story for Bio to include Protheans or any other MW race from the past 50k yr. cycle or more.

 

I don't think Javik was especially high-ranking in the Protheans' leadership structure. He didn't know anything about the Crucible and was only passingly familiar with Ilos if I recall correctly. At most, he might have been their equivalent of Shepard, i.e. a trusted soldier with a crew that was involved in some important missions and decisions but not the one drawing up the war strategies or deciding which contingency survival plans to initiate. 

[FlyingSquirrel]

Anyway, if the species in Andromeda aren't using mass relay technology, then there's an easy enough answer to this: any previous Milky Way ark ships ended up in entirely different sectors of Andromeda and neither the Ark crew nor the native species ever cross their paths. Even if some previous Milky Way species did something similar, Andromeda is even bigger than the Milky Way, so there's no reason to assume that they'd turn up in the same areas. And unless the native Andromedans use mass relays or some other form of FTL-on-steroids, then I suspect that Andromedan society would be more fractious and divided into (relatively) small isolated pockets. 

[fizzypop]

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Not necessarily.

Alien evolutionary paths  could tie the species to their home world and cannot even conceive of moving elsewhere. I point out the Alcor .

From the Mass Effect Wiki: Elcor move slowly, an evolved response to an environment where a fall can be lethal. This has colored their psychology, making them deliberate and conservative.

 

We "stupid" humans can think of more than a half a dozen ways to kill another human....easy. Another alien species could be bound by a strict honour system that requires the aggressor to meet the intended in a combat arena and cannot even think of "cheating". 

 

Thus, certain social / mental psychologies can prevent certain races to stay instead of fleeing.

 

Just sayin'

Neither of those would be biological though. They wouldn't be evolution because evolution can only act on genetic material "cheating" or "honor" isn't genetic. Its a cultural thing. Elcor are the way they are due to learned environment and cultural leanings. Nothing to do with anything biological. So if it can be learned it can be unlearned. There are always freaks within a societal structure.

[fizzypop]

H*omo sapiens sapiens has remained virtually unchanged since we first arose 200,000 years ago. 50,000 years is not even remotely enough time for noticeable genetic variances to arise in the protheans. If they escaped to Andromeda, they will look exactly like Javik, barring some insignificant mutations equivalent to the appearance of blue eyes in humans 7,000 years ago.

EDIT: Jesus Christ, this profanity filter is retarded.

While this is true we do have to remember that not all protheans are genetically protheans. Javik implied heavily that protheans was more of a title that several species used. So it is possible to meet a prothean who doesn't look like Javik.

[SKAR]

While this is true we do have to remember that not all protheans are genetically protheans. Javik implied heavily that protheans was more of a title that several species used. So it is possible to meet a prothean who doesn't look like Javik.

He was a true prothean though. The race. Not slave.

[fizzypop]

He was a true prothean though. The race. Not slave.

That has really nothing to do with what I said though. Also not all were slaves. Either way it is possible we will see a prothean who doesn't look like other protheans and it won't be because they "evolved" it may simply be because they were a different species that was part of the empire.

[SKAR]

That has really nothing to do with what I said though. Also not all were slaves. Either way it is possible we will see a prothean who doesn't look like other protheans and it won't be because they "evolved" it may simply be because they were a different species that was part of the empire.

It's not really that possible. I wouldn't expect It. Leave em in the milky way. The "protheans" who weren't protheans were slaves. They're all dead. The real protheans contingency plan was to put themselves in stasis to wait for the next cycle. They weren't like us. We have different motives.

[SogaBan]

The real protheans contingency plan was to put themselves in stasis to wait for the next cycle. They weren't like us. We have different motives.

 

Is there any supporting codex-entries or dialogue options or other relevant evidence?

 

Personally, I don't think they had only one or two contingencies. The species who reverse engineered a mass relay (in small scale) - it's quite difficult for me to conclude they were less prudent than us when it came to preservation of their legacy!

[MrMrPendragon]

Remnants of reapers? You mean Leviathan? Doubt it. Maybe. Who knows. I think bioware wants to keep the reaps with the orig tril. But it'd be a shame if they weren't referenced or somethin.

 

I meant Sovereign-class Reapers. If a ship can travel from Milky Way to Andromeda without relays, then I see no reason why Reapers can't. Any tech that ship used is inspired by Reaper tech.

[Sifr]

It's not really that possible. I wouldn't expect It. Leave em in the milky way. The "protheans" who weren't protheans were slaves. They're all dead. The real protheans contingency plan was to put themselves in stasis to wait for the next cycle. They weren't like us. We have different motives.

 

The other Protheans weren't slaves (that we know of), but appear to have been subjugated races who joined their Empire as vassals or client species.

 

Javik claims that they allowed any race to throw down the gauntlet and challenge their leadership if they wished, though none ever succeeded. From this we can infer that the "Protheans" absorbed into their Empire were treated as equals, rather than subservient.

 

Of course, that's not to say the "true" Protheans may have taken steps so that they remained unchallenged by other species, something that Javik's pride in his people makes him selectively oblivious to?

 

Client species aren't exactly unheard of even in the current Cycle either.

 

It's canon that the Volus are a client species of the Turians, having traded their financial brilliance for the Turian's protection, while the Drell are (unofficially) this for the Hanar, repaying the Hanar for rescuing them from extinction by serving them in the Compact. It's also implied at one point that the Turians may have been intending to subjugate humanity and make them into another client species, if they had won the First Contact War?

 

(Although that last one I cannot recall where the source was, anyone know?)

[SogaBan]

Recent videos and/or articles and/or leaks hint us that the Andromeda will be a "clean slate" and that whatever choices the players made in the trilogy won't, in any way, be a hindrance to the progress of this new game.

 

As much as the story writer/publisher wants to escape the explanation(s), they owed us - I think that can bite them in their back - and quite hard, possibly.

 

On a hindsight, it came to my mind there there is a probability-route where the reapers are fully aware of the "Andromeda Initiative". During the conversation with the catalyst-kid, we came to know that if Shepard chooses "Control" - he/she will retain her memories and essence (whatever that means), even though she loses her corporeal form in the process. Hence, if the player chooses this ending (which, by the way, I chose almost all of the time), it's quite possible that the Reaper-Shepard can easily follow the trail of the ark (since Shepard is well aware of the initiative) and send some of his/her goons/pals after the Ryders to the Andromeda.

 

Thoughts?

[SKAR]

The other Protheans weren't slaves (that we know of), but appear to have been subjugated races who joined their Empire as vassals or client species.

Javik claims that they allowed any race to throw down the gauntlet and challenge their leadership if they wished, though none ever succeeded. From this we can infer that the "Protheans" absorbed into their Empire were treated as equals, rather than subservient.

Of course, that's not to say the "true" Protheans may have taken steps so that they remained unchallenged by other species, something that Javik's pride in his people makes him selectively oblivious to?

Client species aren't exactly unheard of even in the current Cycle either.

It's canon that the Volus are a client species of the Turians, having traded their financial brilliance for the Turian's protection, while the Drell are (unofficially) this for the Hanar, repaying the Hanar for rescuing them from extinction by serving them in the Compact. It's also implied at one point that the Turians may have been intending to subjugate humanity and make them into another client species, if they had won the First Contact War?

(Although that last one I cannot recall where the source was, anyone know?)

Did you like not listen to Javik or Shepard? Javik:We didn't give them a choice. All eventually called themselves prothean. Not "Slavery" but of course they were forced. Freedom is having a Choice.

[SKAR]

I meant Sovereign-class Reapers. If a ship can travel from Milky Way to Andromeda without relays, then I see no reason why Reapers can't. Any tech that ship used is inspired by Reaper tech.

Why do you assume that there isn't a relay? That's why I hate blind assumptions. Anyway we're gonna need some kind of booster cause at Light speed it'll take 2.5 million years. It takes us 600. We have to be traveling way faster than light speed. WAY faster. Reapers though.............were created for the MW. It was used as a test stage and once they found a permanent solution they would probably spread, catalyst's words. They preserved old life in reaper form and that was their solution. If they were to go to Andromeda they'd have to go to every other galaxy which cannot be done in between cycles. So no Reapers in Andromeda. Bioware apparently hasn't made that clear enough.

[SKAR]

Is there any supporting codex-entries or dialogue options or other relevant evidence?

Personally, I don't think they had only one or two contingencies. The species who reverse engineered a mass relay (in small scale) - it's quite difficult for me to conclude they were less prudent than us when it came to preservation of their legacy!

They didn't have warnings. they had no choice but to fight back. Their plan was to rebuild the empire in the future and they had thousands of protheans in stasis. Was Javik the last prothean not clear enough?

[Blueblood]

Before the Reapers, the Catalyst, the Protheans, the Citadel, and even the Leviathans, there could of been a very advanced civilisation somewhere in the MW, without Reapers to hinder them, and maybe they made it to Andromeda at some point. Or something.

[Sifr]

Did you like not listen to Javik or Shepard? Javik:We didn't give them a choice. All eventually called themselves prothean. Not "Slavery" but of course they were forced. Freedom is having a Choice.

 

But all that says is that the other races were conquered and brought into the Prothean Empire.

 

That does not make them necessarily slaves, as Javik says that they had the choice to challenge them for the right to lead if they wished. Slave masters would not give their slaves the option to fight them in order to become the top dog, especially when Javik says that the the stakes were the right to lead the entire Empire.

 

As I said before, that's not to say that they weren't slaves or kept in line, mind you. That the Protheans were merely claiming that they had the right to challenge leadership if they so wished, but knew that in practice that no-one would ever dare to oppose them.

 

But it could have been no different than another country occupying another nation and bringing the people who live their under their authority. That would not make them slaves, nor does it deny the occupied people the choice to fight back against if they so wish.

[Gothfather]

Assuming the scenario that the Andromeda initiative was undertaken as a contingency plan by the council and/or the other races of the current cycle, in case the galaxy gets overwhelmed by the Reapers' invasion and the Crucible fails to deliver the retribution - it just came to my mind that - if the races of the present cycle can think of this escape-vis-a-vis-exploration initiative like this - is it irrational to speculate that the dominant races of the previous cycles (the protheans, the innusanons, etc.) might have also undertaken similar initiatives (it ain't so hard to imagine this, given the fact that the protheans did considered Ilos probably as one of their contingency programmes; and while I am on this topic I just can't help myself  without wondering whether some stray Innusanons took refuge there too, considering the statues we see in the Mass Effect).

 

May be I am stretching the lore a bit too far, nevertheless thoughts?

 

One of the problems with the lore to have other 'refugees' from the milky way is the method the Reapers use to start the cycles. The citadel is a TRAP it controls the mass relay network and is designed to become the political and economic hub of the galaxy. So when the Reapers arrive for the harvest they cut off the head of the current cycles' leadership. Crippling the leadership and economic centre in one blow, couple that with shutting down the mass relay system to none reaper use which isolates the populations of the current cycle. This was what Sovereign tried to do but was defeated. Our cycle was the ONLY cycle that stopped the citadel trap from being sprung. Which means only our cycle had its leadership, economy and transportation network still intact to fight the reapers.

 

I am not sure how feasible it is that past cycles would even know about the reapers at the very beginning to co-ordinate bringing the knowledge, supplies and manpower together to build arks in time. The first few years maybe even decades would be trying to figure out why the relay system stopped working and most of the economic structures in these isolated pockets would be focused on making themselves self sufficient as they can't rely on anything from outside the sector. This kind of disruption to your infrastructure would have major effects and some isolated areas simply would starve or see their current level of technology drop as they are isolated from the parts and educated personnel to sustain things. (Not saying they would lose all their technology only that things would start to decay in some locations.)

 

Until these pockets can start to find alternative ways to travel from one sector to another without the relays they are not going to know what is happening outside their sectors because the relays also pass information. This means most pockets are not going to know right away what they need to do or even if this is an attack or if the 'precursor' tech just failed. You can't plan for an escape unless you know you need to escape and you why would you plan to escape the galaxy if you don't know this is a galactic threat?

 

It is possible others escaped but I think the reason why the Protheans used cryogenic shelters vs. ships was that it takes less resources, less knowledge and doesn't rely on new technology to solve the mass relays not working. Our own current cycle has a warning the reapers are coming it took them years, in our war against the reapers we still could co-ordinate as one society not isolated pockets so our economy and leadership could plan to respond to threats as a whole. We knew what was happening so we could respond to the threat not fumble about ignorant for the first critical years. So really we only require an alternative drive system as we still have the infrastructure intact when we learn we are in danger this makes us having the ability to create arks far more likely than past cycles.

 

So its possible but I think unlikely that any of the post Mass relay construction cycles escaped. The early cycles possibly as the relay system was and citadel trap is a refinement based on early cycles. So they probably used technology that allowed them to not be isolated into small pockets during their war with the reapers but once the Citadel and Mass relay systems are put into place this greatly reduces the possibility. And given that the cycles are so old I am not sure any species that survive to escape to Andromeda would be alive still or even remember they are originally from the Milky way. A billion years is a LONG time, we have a hard enough time remembering our historic past and that is only about 6000 years. What would we remember about today 10000 years from now? What about 100,000 years? A million?

 

I just don't think it is feasible.

[Gothfather]

I said unlikely becaus not every cycle had a warning from the previous cycle. ME1-3 cycle had prothean warning. Refuse ending race had liaras message. However protheans had no warning and were caught completely off guard. It honestly depends on how many races bioware decided had warnings from previous cycles. Otherwise it's probably impossible to build an ark ship during reaper purge considering it would take a considerable amount of time and resources to build an ark ship, that can't be spared while fighting reapers

 

it is not just a warning that is important it is a warning that also leads them to realise the citadel is a trap and act in time to stop it from being strung. And I am pretty sure Harbinger tells up that this is the first time the trap didn't work but it doesn't matter they are coming we only delay the inevitable.

[Gothfather]

Once again, I can respect your perspective.

 

What I was trying to avoid so carefully so long was that - we all know none of our decision(s)/expectation(s)/hope(s) matter(s) to EA-Bioware. "Mass Effect" these two words have become a brand (thanks to us, the fans) and also a cash-cow for EA. They had us invested in the brand for so long - for a reason, of course!!

 

The brand value kinda dwindled with ME3 ending fiasco and the publisher simply wants to PRETEND that they wanna make amendments to what they have done wrong and salvage the situation as much as they can - the easy and lazy way. Which is - by creating new faces/new places/new resources but all packed under the same brand.

 

It makes things easier - nobody is gonna ask any legitimate queries, even if they want to (because there is sorta no past and the current characters are NOT obliged to explain the previous discrepancies). It serves threefold purposes - gaining new "fan" (read, customers), that is without inciting anger/disappointment with the already existing ones and thirdly, creating another rip-offs with minimum investments (in terms of creative, logical, consistent and rational story writing, art direction, etc.). As it's said, it's much easier to draw on a clean slate than to alter/morph/change an existing ugly state and present it in the most redeeming way possible. But that's me and my whining reason(s). EVERYTHING is fair in business and war - isn't it? But let's please leave those obvious and mundane stuffs.

 

Returning back to the topic, I once again like to re-iterate - I like exploring the possibilities - purely on a fictional academic perspective (knowing fully well, none of this discussion will matter) - that's the only reason I started the thread. Thanks to all the posters - I learned so many things in the process, as well.

 

If Mass effect ended in the fans loving the endings we would still be in the same situation. Moving to Andromeda isn't Lazy or the easy way out. That is you being butt hurt that the endings were not to you satisfaction and being UNREASONABLE in expecting Bioware to fix them. The matrix ending with a moan not a bang it happens but no one sits around end expect there to be a Matrix 3.5 fixer movie. yet fans expect this of ME3. It is self entitlement at its worse. In every other media you all know part of the risk of a sequal is that it wont be as good as the original. We accept this risk and if the sequel sucks we go oh well that was crap but the original rocked. Not gamers Noooooooooooooo they expect you to fix it. pfft.

 

Mass effect was designed to be three games and have a story that ended and it did. There is no story that could be written to take into account the 4 endings this qould require that they pick a single ending and Bioware has no desire to do that. Picking an ending to make a sequel is the EASY way out. Choosing to come up with a way to transplant the series in another galaxy is a harder task, But you labelling taking the easy way out is just a fan hissy fit about the ME3 endings. It is time for fans to 'man' up and grow a pair and LET IT GO. The endings failed to deliver so fraking what? That was years ago now, time to move on. They are what they are and Bioware has paid the price for them. Stop being so immature and boo hoo because you are not getting your ME3 fix. Games cost as much as movies and no one expects a new movie when a sequel sucks but somehow gamers think they are entitled to one. You are not. Deal with it.

 

This clean slate is a lot more effort because they have to create an entire brand new cultural backdrop for Andromeda now, one that is alive in its own right separate from the culture of the Milky way but nooooooooooo that's 'easier' then just saying X ending is canon and this is the universe of Mass effect post reaper war. Pffft talk about gamer self delusion.

[SogaBan]

Before the Reapers, the Catalyst, the Protheans, the Citadel, and even the Leviathans, there could of been a very advanced civilisation somewhere in the MW, without Reapers to hinder them, and maybe they made it to Andromeda at some point. Or something.

This one deserves a cookie. Maybe, this one speaks of a Lovecraftian Cthulhu entity?

[Sartoz]

This one deserves a cookie. Maybe, this one speaks of a Lovecraftian Cthulhu entity?

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Ah.. H.P. Lovecraft.

That series gave me the Heebie Geebies.

 

[SogaBan]

.... Our cycle was the ONLY cycle that stopped the citadel trap from being sprung. Which means only our cycle had its leadership, economy and transportation network still intact to fight the reapers.

 

I am not sure how feasible it is that past cycles would even know about the reapers at the very beginning to co-ordinate bringing the knowledge, supplies and manpower together to build arks in time. The first few years maybe even decades would be trying to figure out why the relay system stopped working and most of the economic structures in these isolated pockets would be focused on making themselves self sufficient as they can't rely on anything from outside the sector. This kind of disruption to your infrastructure would have major effects and some isolated areas simply would starve or see their current level of technology drop as they are isolated from the parts and educated personnel to sustain things. (Not saying they would lose all their technology only that things would start to decay in some locations.)

 

.....

 

It is possible others escaped but I think the reason why the Protheans used cryogenic shelters vs. ships was that it takes less resources, less knowledge and doesn't rely on new technology to solve the mass relays not working. Our own current cycle has a warning the reapers are coming it took them years, in our war against the reapers we still could co-ordinate as one society not isolated pockets so our economy and leadership could plan to respond to threats as a whole....

 

...A billion years is a LONG time, we have a hard enough time remembering our historic past and that is only about 6000 years. What would we remember about today 10000 years from now? What about 100,000 years? A million?

 

I think it was not "us" (the present cycle) who "stopped the citadel trap from being sprung" - it was actually the achievement of the remnants of the prothean scientists from Ilos?

 

Based on circumstantial evidences, I cannot believe that the past cycles didn't know of the Reaper threat (until at the point of being too late). The reason being - the idea, knowledge and the blueprint of the Crucible has been passed along from cycle to the next ones. Let me present a perspective - in present cycle - Liara had thought about a method (her project) of passing this information, in the prothean cycle, they came up with the idea of establishing beacons and/or bunkers to pass on memories. Though we don't have any in-game codex and/or information on the subject, will it be irrational to "assume" that the past cycles also had developed some methods to pass on the information to the next cycles? But I do fully agree with you on the subject of the series of events that might have perspired following reaper invasion in the previous cycles. Keeping that in mind, I personally feel it's a definite possibility that the previous races have developed some ways to pass on these information to the next.

 

The war between the Prothean and the Reapers lasted for around 100 years (if we pay attention to what Jaavik told Shepard), while Humans learned about it only THREE/FOUR years ago and by chance they got their hands on a secret project (aka Crucible) and finally was able to "deliver a retribution". I don't know - whether this is a lazy and cheap writing in the first place OR the current cycle is technologically and scientifically more advanced than all the previous cycles combined (which by the way is not true if we stand by the in-universe lore). The way I see it - probably, the technological prowess and other achievements/advancements of the relevant fields of science and knowledge has been progressively decreasing with each cycle (e.g. prothean communication methods - the beacons/shards -  were far superior and advanced than the present cycle). I sincerely look forward to someone propounding on this topic of such ambiguity.

 

On this I am with you. I never suggested that we may have the probability to meet the species of the past cycles - as is; definitely they have undergone major evolutionary changes - but the ancestries of those species will still be the same, regardless - you know what I mean.

[SogaBan]

... It is time for fans to 'man' up and grow a pair and LET IT GO....

 

...

 

Pffft talk about gamer self delusion.

 

That's the point of initiating this whole discussion - to "man up" and "grow a pair" and discuss about the possibilities of the new game - even though in a pure academic manner.

But what I couldn't understand was who shot your dog in the first place?

[Arcian]

If there were Protheans in Andromeda, that could be pretty depressing in regards to Javik. One of his final conversations with Shep can suggest he's going to go kill himself after they win. It'd be so sad if he died never knowing that his people live on elsewhere.

Winning the Reaper War might change his mind.

[Arcian]

Why do you assume that there isn't a relay? That's why I hate blind assumptions. Anyway we're gonna need some kind of booster cause at Light speed it'll take 2.5 million years. It takes us 600.

Yeah but Mass Effect ships travel at more than 4380 times the speed of light and doesn't suffer the effects of time dilation, so it'll "only" take about 570 years in total.