92 réponses à ce sujet

[Arcian]

That's the point of initiating this whole discussion - to "man up" and "grow a pair" and discuss about the possibilities of the new game - even though in a pure academic manner.

But what I couldn't understand was who shot your dog in the first place?

Doesn't the username tip you off? Clearly shot his own dog in a fit of rage.

[Blueblood]

This one deserves a cookie. Maybe, this one speaks of a Lovecraftian Cthulhu entity?

One shall pretend they were talking about a Lovecraftian Cthulhu entity, because talking about or referencing a Lovecraftian Cthulhu entity gives one Internet cred BUT

Now that we're on that subject, maybe we'll find an oceanic Planet with deep underwater cities inhabited by... Milkyway vegetables! I mean...The Elder Things!

There's so much that could be done with the Cthulhu mythos in Mass Effect.

[Gothfather]

That's the point of initiating this whole discussion - to "man up" and "grow a pair" and discuss about the possibilities of the new game - even though in a pure academic manner.

But what I couldn't understand was who shot your dog in the first place?

Because whining about ME:A not fixing ME3 is gamers being unreasonable. And it is time gamers LET. IT. GO. Me3's endings were bad so what? They are what they are, claiming that going to Andromeda is a cop-out or the easy way out is simply gamers QQing that ME3 wasn't as good as they wanted. Get over it. It ended with a wimper not a bang. Sure we all wanted the game to blow our socks off it didn't. NOTHING is going to change that now. So accept it happen and stop trying to frame everything as "if bioware doesn't fix the endings' they are taking the easy way out. It is false, it is disingenuous and Bioware doesn't owe anyone a fix. No media does this.

 

By all means tell Bioware their me3 endings suck but stop this conspiracy theory BS that EA did it, nope it was Bioware they are responsible for the failure. There are so many BS threads going on and on about gamers wanting, demanding and expecting they are owed a correction it is high time these unreasonable expectations get slapped down.

 

As to the general topic of the thread I have no issue with it.

[Gothfather]

I think it was not "us" (the present cycle) who "stopped the citadel trap from being sprung" - it was actually the achievement of the remnants of the prothean scientists from Ilos?

 

Based on circumstantial evidences, I cannot believe that the past cycles didn't know of the Reaper threat (until at the point of being too late). The reason being - the idea, knowledge and the blueprint of the Crucible has been passed along from cycle to the next ones. Let me present a perspective - in present cycle - Liara had thought about a method (her project) of passing this information, in the prothean cycle, they came up with the idea of establishing beacons and/or bunkers to pass on memories. Though we don't have any in-game codex and/or information on the subject, will it be irrational to "assume" that the past cycles also had developed some methods to pass on the information to the next cycles? But I do fully agree with you on the subject of the series of events that might have perspired following reaper invasion in the previous cycles. Keeping that in mind, I personally feel it's a definite possibility that the previous races have developed some ways to pass on these information to the next.

 

The war between the Prothean and the Reapers lasted for around 100 years (if we pay attention to what Jaavik told Shepard), while Humans learned about it only THREE/FOUR years ago and by chance they got their hands on a secret project (aka Crucible) and finally was able to "deliver a retribution". I don't know - whether this is a lazy and cheap writing in the first place OR the current cycle is technologically and scientifically more advanced than all the previous cycles combined (which by the way is not true if we stand by the in-universe lore). The way I see it - probably, the technological prowess and other achievements/advancements of the relevant fields of science and knowledge has been progressively decreasing with each cycle (e.g. prothean communication methods - the beacons/shards -  were far superior and advanced than the present cycle). I sincerely look forward to someone propounding on this topic of such ambiguity.

 

On this I am with you. I never suggested that we may have the probability to meet the species of the past cycles - as is; definitely they have undergone major evolutionary changes - but the ancestries of those species will still be the same, regardless - you know what I mean.

 

No it was US the current cycle. You remove Shepard from the equation and it fails Ilos doesn't keep the citadel falling into enemy hands as it is used by Saren first. Ilos is used by Saren and Shepard so as a tool it is neutral in its effect.

 

Think about how we got the information. We got it from a probe when we experienced an attack on a colony thus cementing the threat. What if someone found the Eden prime probe 10 years before? You wait 1 year nothing happens you find no evidence do you still look? What about after two, three, four? For how long do you continue to look and are you really going to build arks just because a probe says you are doomed? The reapers do a good job or removing their presence from each cycle. What if you found the beacon 100 years before the cycle starts? a 1000? It will start to appear like this is a religious text vs a historical source. The Asari had a prothean beacon and it just got morphed into their mythos.

 

The key factor isn't just that info reaches the next cycle but it has to be done at 'right' moment that people can act upon and confirm the data while still being able to stop the Citadel trap from working. Not sure if you can just say well information would make it from cycle to cycle ergo they will KNOW the reapers are comming. We know data crosses cycles, this is true in multiple instances. The Protheans did this multiple times, Mars, Eden Prime, Virgil on Ilos, the Asari homeworld, Javik. We also know that the crucible was something that for the last several cycles the catalysis has being trying to eradicate it but failed. So this information passing is established fact with multiple examples so I don't refute it. So why hasn't the cycles ever been stop and I think it is because the reapers can't be found in our galaxy they hibernate outside it between cycles so it is very hard to confirm data from past cycles. Is this a warning or a fragment from a story of fiction? Is it part of a religious belief and thus mythology or real? And if you believe it is real how long to you search for confirmation and continue to search without finding anything before you just ignore the warning?

 

As to the idea that each cycle is technologically less advance then its predecessor there is zero evidence for that being a characteristic of the cycles. It is a characteristic of the previous cycle to our own but no data suggests this is a trend at all. In fact we have  data that shows that each new cycles refined and improved  the crucible at least according to the catalysis. So this at least shows an increase in tech in a single instance over several cycles. How many that is is an unknown as we just have the qualitative term several to go by. It would seem to me that cycles fluctuate in terms of technology 50,000 years could create divergent levels without there being any trend per say. Nothing in the lore prohibits the idea (at least none that I can recall) but there is evidence that in one case it gets more advance and there isn't actually any evidence that there is any trends at all one way or the other. Every cycle comes upon the mass relay systems and views the previous cycle as more advance because the reapers are more advance and they created the relays. But that doesn't follow that every cycle is actually less advance then the previous cycle when the reapers attack. At least I see no evidence to support this.

[ModernAcademic]

So it would be impossible for the original crew of the Ark to reach Andromeda alive? Because the trip would take 600 years?

 

...what if the scientists working on the Andromeda Initiative learned how to preserve organic life for centuries based on the Prothean stasis pods? 

 

Didn't the Alliance do any kind of research on Ilos after reading Shepard's report?

[Sifr]

So it would be impossible for the original crew of the Ark to reach Andromeda alive? Because the trip would take 600 years?

 

...what if the scientists working on the Andromeda Initiative learned how to preserve organic life for centuries based on the Prothean stasis pods? 

 

Didn't the Alliance do any kind of research on Ilos after reading Shepard's report?

 

The Alliance already possesses cryo-sleep or stasis pods technology, according to the lore.

 

One of the Cerberus Daily News articles (which seem to be semi-canon) mentions the rediscovery of the Manswell Expedition, who set off in 2075 to colonise a planet in the Alpha Centauri system in a sleeper ship equipped with cryo-pods. So the technology existed several decades before humanity even discovered the Mars Ruins and how to use mass effect technology for FTL travel.

[ModernAcademic]

The Alliance already possesses cryo-sleep or stasis pods technology, according to the lore.

 

One of the Cerberus Daily News articles (which seem to be semi-canon) mentions the rediscovery of the Manswell Expedition, who set off in 2075 to colonise a planet in the Alpha Centauri system in a sleeper ship equipped with cryo-pods. So the technology existed several decades before humanity even discovered the Mars Ruins and how to use mass effect technology for FTL travel.

 

Hm. So Andromeda may depart from the supposition that cryo-sleep can preserve people intact for centuries.

 

Thanks for the info! I didn't even know about these Cerberus articles. And I usually take some time to read some of the codex entries.

Just out of curiosity: Is this info from the games, from the books or from the comics?

[Sifr]

Hm. So Andromeda may depart from the supposition that cryo-sleep can preserve people intact for centuries.

 

Thanks for the info! I didn't even know about these Cerberus articles. And I usually take some time to read some of the codex entries.

Just out of curiosity: Is this info from the games, from the books or from the comics?

 

The Cerberus Daily News and Alliance News Network articles are supplemental stuff for ME2 and ME3, which were written on the Bioware blogs and are probably still there in the archives somewhere. Otherwise they can be found on the ME wiki.

 

The articles seem to be canon (or at least semi-canon) because a few characters or events later appear or are referenced in the games. A good example is in the Citadel DLC, where Shepard can meet Jonah and Aish Ashland, who own the refuelling stations the Normandy uses in ME2 and 3.

 

The Raloi were first mentioned in an article on the CDN as a newly discovered avian species, discovered during the events of ME2. In ME3 a news broadcast in-game reveals that only six months after first contact, their delegation decided to retreat to their homeworld, destroy all their orbital facilities and hope that the Reapers will believe them to be pre-spaceflight and too primitive to exterminate.

[SogaBan]

Think about how we got the information. We got it from a probe when we experienced an attack on a colony thus cementing the threat. What if someone found the Eden prime probe 10 years before? You wait 1 year nothing happens you find no evidence do you still look? What about after two, three, four? For how long do you continue to look and are you really going to build arks just because a probe says you are doomed? The reapers do a good job or removing their presence from each cycle. What if you found the beacon 100 years before the cycle starts? a 1000? It will start to appear like this is a religious text vs a historical source. The Asari had a prothean beacon and it just got morphed into their mythos.

 

The key factor isn't just that info reaches the next cycle but it has to be done at 'right' moment that people can act upon and confirm the data while still being able to stop the Citadel trap from working. Not sure if you can just say well information would make it from cycle to cycle ergo they will KNOW the reapers are comming. We know data crosses cycles, this is true in multiple instances. The Protheans did this multiple times, Mars, Eden Prime, Virgil on Ilos, the Asari homeworld, Javik. We also know that the crucible was something that for the last several cycles the catalysis has being trying to eradicate it but failed. So this information passing is established fact with multiple examples so I don't refute it. So why hasn't the cycles ever been stop and I think it is because the reapers can't be found in our galaxy they hibernate outside it between cycles so it is very hard to confirm data from past cycles. Is this a warning or a fragment from a story of fiction? Is it part of a religious belief and thus mythology or real? And if you believe it is real how long to you search for confirmation and continue to search without finding anything before you just ignore the warning?

 

As to the idea that each cycle is technologically less advance then its predecessor there is zero evidence for that being a characteristic of the cycles. It is a characteristic of the previous cycle to our own but no data suggests this is a trend at all. In fact we have  data that shows that each new cycles refined and improved  the crucible at least according to the catalysis. So this at least shows an increase in tech in a single instance over several cycles. How many that is is an unknown as we just have the qualitative term several to go by. It would seem to me that cycles fluctuate in terms of technology 50,000 years could create divergent levels without there being any trend per say. Nothing in the lore prohibits the idea (at least none that I can recall) but there is evidence that in one case it gets more advance and there isn't actually any evidence that there is any trends at all one way or the other. Every cycle comes upon the mass relay systems and views the previous cycle as more advance because the reapers are more advance and they created the relays. But that doesn't follow that every cycle is actually less advance then the previous cycle when the reapers attack. At least I see no evidence to support this.

 

That's a very interesting and practical perspective you threw there - thank you - made me reorient my thoughts! But for the last "Asari had a prothean beacon and it just got morphed into their mythos" - I believe it was purely to withhold the information about protheans (even Saren couldn't know about the Thessian beacon despite the fact that Benezzia was his co-conspirator) just to maintain galactic-diplomatic-scientific dominance.

 

"it has to be done at 'right' moment" - I am troubled by the use of 'right moment' to be honest. But I'll take it with grains of salt - since lots of stories/plots ends with a deus-ex machination. For the part where you ask - how long should we look for substantial evidences of events - I'd say - till we actually find it! The same way Alliance took the initiative of digging out the facts behind the existence of a Leviathan (even though it might have looked like a wild goose chase in the beginning) Personally speaking, that's the reason I admire the salarians and Cerberus for their relentless pursuit after their agendas no matter the cost.

 

Yes, I am aware that there is actually null evidence to support what I thought. But, when I try to have a retrospect - it seems to be a possibility that technological reliance and/or supremacy decreases with cycles - probably the reason why Shepard was the only person who could make a decision nudging towards Synthesis (as the catalyst kid said). Once again, I am trying to stretch things way too far...

[SogaBan]

Didn't the Alliance do any kind of research on Ilos after reading Shepard's report?

 

Alliance is a completely corrupted infra-structure filled with 'self-concerned jackasses' - my personal opinion. They are way too timid and complacent to try any new things. Apart from the "Leviathan dlc project", they did nothing significant to contribute to the whole retribution arc - you know what I meant.

[SogaBan]

The Cerberus Daily News and Alliance News Network articles are supplemental stuff for ME2 and ME3, which were written on the Bioware blogs and are probably still there in the archives somewhere. Otherwise they can be found on the ME wiki.

 

 

For those interested:

 

Alliance News Network

Cerberus Daily News

[AngryFrozenWater]

Hm. So Andromeda may depart from the supposition that cryo-sleep can preserve people intact for centuries.

 

Thanks for the info! I didn't even know about these Cerberus articles. And I usually take some time to read some of the codex entries.

Just out of curiosity: Is this info from the games, from the books or from the comics?

The Cerberus Network was a series of in-game messages that showed up at the start screen of ME2, usually once a day during 2010. It required access to the Internet and was part op the copy protection.

[Vortex13]

Of all the known aliens from the Milky Way making the trip to Andromeda, my money would be on the Rachni; and not just because I am an unashamed fanboy.

 

The Rachni have survived two attempted genocides, first by the Prothean empire and then by the Council, as well as at least one galactic purge by the Catalyst. This coupled with their knowledge of the Reapers, either via Leviathan enthrallment or Reaper control (I believe its the former to be honest), during the Rachni Wars means that they have the skill and the foreknowledge to look for ways to avoid the coming invasion. Indeed, as per Mass Effect 1, we know that the Rachni were also capable of creating long voyage vessels with preservation techniques that allowed the queen egg to survive two thousand years with no issues. Add in their extremophile biology and there is no logical reason why the Rachni couldn't easily make the transition to Andromeda.

 

This is a species that was utilizing space age level architecture before they even achieved space flight. A species that could reverse engineer FTL technology from a single Salarian exploratory vessel and make an entire armada of ships to invade Council space.  A species that innately knows how to work on the Crucible alongside the galaxy's best and brightest just moments after hatching. And they are deftly proficient at surviving despite the odds. 

 

Who's to say that only a single vessel was sent out at the conclusion of the Rachni Wars? Maybe the Queen we meet in ME had no means of contacting the other eggs and so assumed she was the last of her species? Even at a slower rate of FTL compared to the current cycle this hypothetical ship would have well over 2,600 years to make the trip to Andromeda, more than enough time to get there and then establish a new colony.

[Gothfather]

That's a very interesting and practical perspective you threw there - thank you - made me reorient my thoughts! But for the last "Asari had a prothean beacon and it just got morphed into their mythos" - I believe it was purely to withhold the information about protheans (even Saren couldn't know about the Thessian beacon despite the fact that Benezzia was his co-conspirator) just to maintain galactic-diplomatic-scientific dominance.

 

"it has to be done at 'right' moment" - I am troubled by the use of 'right moment' to be honest. But I'll take it with grains of salt - since lots of stories/plots ends with a deus-ex machination. For the part where you ask - how long should we look for substantial evidences of events - I'd say - till we actually find it! The same way Alliance took the initiative of digging out the facts behind the existence of a Leviathan (even though it might have looked like a wild goose chase in the beginning) Personally speaking, that's the reason I admire the salarians and Cerberus for their relentless pursuit after their agendas no matter the cost.

 

Yes, I am aware that there is actually null evidence to support what I thought. But, when I try to have a retrospect - it seems to be a possibility that technological reliance and/or supremacy decreases with cycles - probably the reason why Shepard was the only person who could make a decision nudging towards Synthesis (as the catalyst kid said). Once again, I am trying to stretch things way too far...

 

'Right' is in quotes for a reason. It isn't in reference to a literary or story element but that knowledge at the 'wrong' time can lead no where. Take the steam engine hero of Alexandria invented a steam powered device two thousand years ago but people saw no practical application for it and so it disappeared from history. So all the 'right' time means is that teh knowledge can't appear when there is no threat for a significant timer period as i will explain.

 

This idea as "for as long as it take" isn't rational. You are looking at things from 'the reapers are a threat as an established fact.' Yet you only know that because of your meta knowledge. There are many prophesies of doom in mythology we don't keep looking for proof these predictions are true especially ones that are from other cultures. There is ZERO reason to continue to look for proof once you fail to find it after repeated tries. The 'ether' was a theory in science to explain how light travel the universe but when we tried to measure it and find it we failed over  and over again. So we stopped looking because it was logically concluded that the theory is wrong. All a warning from a previous cycle has no special credibility. If a message in a bottle floated up on the beach near where you lived or you were are the ocean on holidays and you found one that said we were all going to die from X. Would you believe it? Most people wouldn't. And lets say you do and you look for evidence of X for a couple of years do you continue to look? I doubt it. At some point rational minds are going to say there is no threat.  You can't go back from we know this is true so you look until you find the proof. You DON'T know it is true especially if you find this information so far from a cycle. Do we keep looking until we find proof of Ragnarök? The are all doomed according to text handed down from Scandinavian peoples. Why don't we continue to look until we find it. The beacons are just empty warnings without evidence. This is why you don't sit there fretting about Ragnarök because sure you know the story but there is NO evidence it is true and so why prepare for it. It is even less likely that you would invest all that capital in a series of ships when there is no evidence that shows we actually need them.  What makes this cycle special is we found out about the cycles at the exact same moment a reaper was part of an attack on Eden Prime. That is the key fact that makes this warning so powerful. Too early and you find no trace of the reapers too late and the citadel trap has sprung and you are doomed.

 

The Asari beacon wasn't even know to Benezzia one of the head matriarchs as you state think about how deep that secret must have been for her not to know and the probe is part of a public exhibit? This suggests it was more than just the Asari held the existence of it secret because they wanted to exploit it. It was so secret why was in a bloody museum open to the public? There is no way the government would be actively keeping this a secret. It would have been in some secure location not on public display. If you are probing if for technological secrets you have long since past the anthropological stage of study of the device now it is a data base and you are NOT going to leave such a vital and important item on display. You would create a replica for the museum and keep the real one under lock and key. It makes no sense for a conspiracy to operate in the manner the Asari government would have to if it actually knew about the beacon.

[SogaBan]

Of all the known aliens from the Milky Way making the trip to Andromeda, my money would be on the Rachni; and not just because I am an unashamed fanboy.

 

Among all the known and unknown races of the trilogy (particularly those which contribute to the story arc) the Rachni and the Thorian are the most understated and really got less screen time than they deserved...

[Vortex13]

Among all the known and unknown races of the trilogy (particularly those which contribute to the story arc) the Rachni and the Thorian are the most understated and really got less screen time than they deserved...

 

 

Followed closely by the Hanar and Elcor as well... their unique and 'alien' ME 1 counterparts anyway.

 

Once those two became synonymous with the series' running gag they actually got more screentime. 

[SogaBan]

This idea as "for as long as it take" isn't rational. ...

 

...

 

There is ZERO reason to continue to look for proof once you fail to find it after repeated tries.

 

...

 

The beacons are just empty warnings without evidence.

 

...

 

There is no way the government would be actively keeping this a secret. It would have been in some secure location not on public display. If you are probing if for technological secrets you have long since past the anthropological stage of study of the device now it is a data base and you are NOT going to leave such a vital and important item on display. You would create a replica for the museum and keep the real one under lock and key. It makes no sense for a conspiracy to operate in the manner the Asari government would have to if it actually knew about the beacon.

 

Well, I appreciate your response - but I guess the way I look at "being rational" is different than what you do. I shall respect your opinion, even though I don't agree with it.

 

I don't think there was "zero" evidence.  The comics book - 'the evolution' showed otherwise. The proofs/artifacts though not abundant but their presence cannot be considered insignificant - that differentiates between a visionary and complacency - that's my POV.

 

As far as the in-universe codex and lore goes, the beacons were never an empty warning. Even if the beacons' vision would 've been discovered in the absence of an active Reaper invasion - they were bound to stir water in the academic, logical, rational and the exalted mind!!

 

As far as the Thessian beacon was concerned - the asari were basically fumbling interpreting its significance till the last moment!! And sometimes, 'keeping something quite openly in front of public without being discrete' is one of the best ways to diminish unwanted attention.

[ModernAcademic]

The Cerberus Daily News and Alliance News Network articles are supplemental stuff for ME2 and ME3, which were written on the Bioware blogs and are probably still there in the archives somewhere. Otherwise they can be found on the ME wiki.

 

The articles seem to be canon (or at least semi-canon) because a few characters or events later appear or are referenced in the games. A good example is in the Citadel DLC, where Shepard can meet Jonah and Aish Ashland, who own the refuelling stations the Normandy uses in ME2 and 3.

 

The Raloi were first mentioned in an article on the CDN as a newly discovered avian species, discovered during the events of ME2. In ME3 a news broadcast in-game reveals that only six months after first contact, their delegation decided to retreat to their homeworld, destroy all their orbital facilities and hope that the Reapers will believe them to be pre-spaceflight and too primitive to exterminate.

 

Thanks again!  I'll go take a look!