64 réponses à ce sujet

[Christy]

I hope this doesn't come off as mean spirited or offensive in any way, that is truly not my intention. Also, English isn't my native tongue, so please excuse any errors.

 

I'm just going to go straight to the point: where did all the black people in DAI come from? There were very few people of color in comparison in the other two games, and that felt realistic to me, at least in Dragon Age Origins, as Ferelden was based on medieval England. If the setting was inspired by for example 1800s England instead, it would be less problematic to me with lots of diversity. In this century we had filled holes in the maps, we had imperialism and colonization, we had more trade and travel. To suddenly find black people everywhere in this Ferelden, though, that took me out of immersion somewhat. I never thought much about the fact that Duncan was a black man. It never broke immersion for me as it wasn't illogical at all, him being a Grey Warden and all. You could also spot people of all nationalities in Denerim, I recall. I didn't have a problem with that whatsoever either as it was a big market in the city and the center for trade, and therefore it made sense. If the setting was based on medieval Africa, it would irk me just as much to see lots of random white people scattered all over the place without a good reason.

 

I guess my point is that by all means, have ethnic diversity in the Dragon Age games, just don't make it completely random, for a lack of better words. I realize it might sound stupid to ask for realism in a game where we have dragons and ogres, but "realistic fantasy" is what I prefer. If it isn't a world we can recongnize to some extent, I just don't care about that world.

Maybe in the future the story will take place in for example Rivain, and people of color can be represented without it being out of place (again, for a lack of better words).

 

Lastly I want to say that I understand the wish to have black people represented in media without them being stereotypical or being the dude that dies first in a big action movie (that's such a dumb cliche). I just don't think it's the right way to go about it having a previously white nation suddenly being very diverse without any explanation.

 

I'm all for defeating racism. I'm also a feminist. Yet I would prefer the middle age England inspired Ferelden to be mostly white and female characters having a tougher time than men because of sexism. That's a medieval fantasy world I can believe.

 

I realize this is a sensitive topic, so I'm a little scared to post this. I don't mean to make anyone feel bad because of the color f their skin, so I'm very sorry if I did. The color of ones skin is, of course, completely irrelevant to how one is as a person, just as gender is completely irrelevant too.

[Xilizhra]

There are two answers: The North (keep in mind that Thedas' transportation infrastructure is much better than our world's back then, because of the Imperial Highway), and "they came with the Frostbite engine because the last engine was lousy at rendering dark skin."

 

Then there's the third answer, which is "medieval England didn't have dragons in it either, so don't sweat it." Also, I don't even remember any major black people from Ferelden; Vivienne was from Wycome and Giselle was from Orlais.

 

As for sexism, that's an entirely different topic, but remember that Thedas' pseudo-Jesus was a woman, as well as a warrior.

[Krypplingz]

They were always there. Lurking in the shadows. 

 

I'm a follower of the idea that the engine was fairly bad at rendering dark skin (or maybe I'm color blind since I was surprised how dark some of the npcs looked when their faces were opened in the toolset). 

Spoiler

Then there is also the random generation, since in Inquisition the npcs skin and hair color is randomly generated when the characters load. So one day you might walk through Skyhold and see a bunch of dark skinned people and then the other day there might only be two hanging around. 

[Christy]

There are two answers: The North (keep in mind that Thedas' transportation infrastructure is much better than our world's back then, because of the Imperial Highway), and "they came with the Frostbite engine because the last engine was lousy at rendering dark skin."

 

Then there's the third answer, which is "medieval England didn't have dragons in it either, so don't sweat it." Also, I don't even remember any major black people from Ferelden; Vivienne was from Wycome and Giselle was from Orlais.

 

As for sexism, that's an entirely different topic, but remember that Thedas' pseudo-Jesus was a woman, as well as a warrior.

Isn't the Tevinter infrastructure in the DA universe the equivalent of the Roman one in our world though? It made England more diverse for sure, as did the viking settlers. England undeniably remained pretty white, though.

 

You may have a point with the rendering of dark skin. Perhaps the creators wanted Ferelden diverse from the start but were unable to. That still doesn't explain how, in a world inspired by the dark ages, a country came to be so mixed, though.

 

'Then there's the third answer, which is "medieval England didn't have dragons in it either, so don't sweat it."' That is correct indeed. Yet series like Game of Thrones, focusing on realism and being strongly inspired by the Wars of the Roses despite having a few firebreathing monsters present, have been a huge success.

 

There are no major black characters in DAI that I can recall either. What bothered me was the general amount of dark skinned people in a Medieval, European setting. Would you not react if the next DA game took place in a clearly African inspired place from long ago, yet featured very many white people? Wouldn't that just seem kinda unrealistic to you? It would for me.

 

'As for sexism, that's an entirely different topic, but remember that Thedas' pseudo-Jesus was a woman, as well as a warrior.' That's a good point. Bringing gender into the debate was probably quite irrelevant indeed

[Christy]

They were always there. Lurking in the shadows. 

 

I'm a follower of the idea that the engine was fairly bad at rendering dark skin (or maybe I'm color blind since I was surprised how dark some of the npcs looked when their faces were opened in the toolset). 

Spoiler

Then there is also the random generation, since in Inquisition the npcs skin and hair color is randomly generated when the characters load. So one day you might walk through Skyhold and see a bunch of dark skinned people and then the other day there might only be two hanging around. 

Those are some good points. Maybe I just didn't notice them because of the way the game looked.

I hadn't thought much about randomly generated people either, but now that you mention it, it makes sense. I think I might have killed this same blonde guy several times. Not a fan of that at all. There's no soul behind it and it gives me flashbacks of completely random sims in The Sims 3. Oh the horror

[Gileadan]

More technically speaking: they came from the RNG. To at least somewhat disguise the constant recycling of relatively few character models - especially visible with your Inquisition soldiers since Haven / Skyhold were the only really populated areas in the game - BioWare opted to randomly pick the hair and skin colors of most unnamed side NPCs.

 

A very obvious moment is when you promote Ser Barris - when the camera pans to show the four saluting templars (or squires or whatever they are), you'll see that they all use the same model with randomly picked skin and hair colors. Which will be different every time, so they are not even consistent.

 

Also, BioWare finds diversity an important thing, so it's likely a win-win from their perspective.

[ArcadiaGrey]

Small point to make, but there have been people of colour in the UK for nearly 2000 years.  They came over with the Roman army when they invaded as it was made up of people from the entirety of the Roman empire (which stretched across a vast area).

Many stayed in the UK after they retired and married local girls and started families.  Therefore medieval England wasn't perhaps as white as you might think.  

 

I would like a little more context for ethnicity, all we've had so far is a warmer skin tone for Duncan, Isabela, Zevran and Josie and they're all hailing from Antiva and Rivain right?  Not so sure about where a more Asian look (Mother Mallol) or African (Vivienne) would hail from.

[Christy]

More technically speaking: they came from the RNG. To at least somewhat disguise the constant recycling of relatively few character models - especially visible with your Inquisition soldiers since Haven / Skyhold were the only really populated areas in the game - BioWare opted to randomly pick the hair and skin colors of most unnamed side NPCs.

 

A very obvious moment is when you promote Ser Barris - when the camera pans to show the four saluting templars (or squires or whatever they are), you'll see that they all use the same model with randomly picked skin and hair colors. Which will be different every time, so they are not even consistent.

 

Also, BioWare finds diversity an important thing, so it's likely a win-win from their perspective.

You know, I think you're right. That's pretty lazy, though (although I get it as a lazy person myself).

DAI is a very modern game, and it reflects our modern world. We have Vivienne, a strong black woman. We have Dorian, a proud gay man. We have Krem. Black people are treated the same as white (to my knowledge). Women are treated pretty much the same as men. As a liberal person, I think this is awesome. It's an ideal world. Still, I sometimes have a difficult time finding it all realistic in a medieval-ish setting. I think why maybe the sexuality stuff didn't really pop that much out to me is that through history, it has not always been that unheard of really, even when it comes to Ancient times. Emperor Nero, Spartans and so on. Major traveling between far off countries is harder for me to accept. A girls family in the Alienage in DAO thought of it as extremely difficult task moving from one alienage to another in Ferelden.

 

Well, just my thoughts.

[Christy]

Small point to make, but there have been people of colour in the UK for nearly 2000 years.  They came over with the Roman army when they invaded as it was made up of people from the entirety of the Roman empire (which stretched across a vast area).

Many stayed in the UK after they retired and married local girls and started families.  Therefore medieval England wasn't perhaps as white as you might think.  

 

I would like a little more context for ethnicity, all we've had so far is a warmer skin tone for Duncan, Isabela, Zevran and Josie and they're all hailing from Antiva and Rivain right?  Not so sure about where a more Asian look (Mother Mallol) or African (Vivienne) would hail from.

Good point! I'm definitely not an expert on how the Romans affected Britain. I've been learning more history from TV than school probably, and we all know movies at least have a tendency to be whitewashed.

 

Yes, I completely agree on having more context. I'm also very curious about the rest of the world in Dragon Age. So far it's pretty much been just "European"

[Catilina]

You know, I think you're right. That's pretty lazy, though (although I get it as a lazy person myself).

DAI is a very modern game, and it reflects our modern world. We have Vivienne, a strong black woman. We have Dorian, a proud gay man. We have Krem. Black people are treated the same as white (to my knowledge). Women are treated pretty much the same as men. As a liberal person, I think this is awesome. It's an ideal world. Still, I sometimes have a difficult time finding it all realistic in a medieval-ish setting. I think why maybe the sexuality stuff didn't really pop that much out to me is that through history, it has not always been that unheard of really, even when it comes to Ancient times. Emperor Nero, Spartans and so on. Major traveling between far off countries is harder for me to accept. A girls family in the Alienage in DAO thought of it as extremely difficult task moving from one alienage to another in Ferelden.

 

Well, just my thoughts.

Black or white no matter in DA, because they are all human. Nevertheless, the racism still exist in the DA universe: for example the elves in the alienage, elf slaves... etc. And the situation of women: in the qunari society the women do not exist as warrior, however in the Chantry only the women can be cleric, grand cleric, and Divine. LGBT (and race) issue: Alistair can't take his side to the throne elf/dwarf woman (or man... nor if he is human noble man, I think. Imaginable, that Alistair will be king,and marry with a man? This is one of the reason that he designed as straight?). Equal opportunities: the dwarves have a strong caste system. The situation is mixed.

 

(In the ancient Rome the people did not care about the skin colour of the slaves. They were so enlightened ...)

Modifié par Catilina, 03 juillet 2016 - 07:19 .

[vertigomez]

Thedas has always been something of a cultural and racial (as in, human races) mish-mash, so don't sweat it. It just is. Antiva is the lovechild of Spain and Italy. Western Tevinter is more Roman and Eastern Tevinter is more Indian, etc. Why does everyone from Rivain to the Free Marches speak perfect Common? They just do. Why is it so racially diverse? It just is.

There doesn't really need to be "a good reason" that the people of Ferelden are more diverse than those in actual medieval England (which was not 100% full of white people anywho), anymore than there needs to be justification for why there are women in the army or in positions of power, or why being LGBT is not treated as a big deal. It's just not.

This is the medieval fantasy they've chosen to craft, emphasis on the fantasy.

[Christy]

Black or white, in DA they are all human. Nevertheless, the racism still exist in the DA universe: for example the elves in the alienage, elf slaves... etc. And the situation of women: in the qunari society the women do not exist as warrior, however in the Chantry only the women can be cleric, grand cleric, and Divine. Alistair can't take his side to the throne elf/dwarf woman (or man... nor if he is human noble man, I think. It would be interest with a Cousland man, or a Surana...ok, Surana not, because he is a mage, but a Mahariel or Aeducan/Brosca) The situation is mixed.

 

(In the ancient Rome the people did not care about the skin colour of the slaves. They were so enlightened ...)

Yes, there is a huge deal of racism in the universe of course. I only meant that I hadn't seen any racism directed at humans for their skin color. I had forgotten about the sexism amongst the Qunari and in the Chantry. People are mostly chill when it comes to gender in Dragon Age, though, at least that's my impression. "(In the ancient Rome the people did not care about the skin colour of the slaves. They were so enlightened ...)" Not entirely sure what you meant there. I'm sure the slaves were very diverse?

 

 

Thedas has always been something of a cultural and racial (as in, human races) mish-mash, so don't sweat it. It just is. Antiva is the lovechild of Spain and Italy. Western Tevinter is more Roman and Eastern Tevinter is more Indian, etc. Why does everyone from Rivain to the Free Marches speak perfect Common? They just do. Why is it so racially diverse? It just is.

There doesn't really need to be "a good reason" that the people of Ferelden are more diverse than those in actual medieval England (which was not 100% full of white people anywho), anymore than there needs to be justification for why there are women in the army or in positions of power, or why being LGBT is not treated as a big deal. It's just not.

This is the medieval fantasy they've chosen to craft, emphasis on the fantasy.

hah! The lovechild thing. I always saw Antiva as a kind of renaissance Italy for some reason. I guess it reminds me of the time of the Borgia family. I always wished the Antivans had Italian accents instead of Spanish.

 

"Why does everyone from Rivain to the Free Marches speak perfect Common? They just do." That's another thing that bothers me a lot now that you mention it. I don't like the way they handled the languages in this universe at all. Why is it everyone in Orlais speaks to each other in English with accents? I mean, I understand why they did it that way. Most people would probably find it irritating if npcs spoke in French to each other and spoke with grammatical errors to you. I think that sounds much better, though. Much more realistic. And yes, I know it is a fantasy. But fantasy has a basis in the real world and people. People are still people even though there are magical monsters present as well.

[Catilina]

Yes, there is a huge deal of racism in the universe of course. I only meant that I hadn't seen any racism directed at humans for their skin color. I had forgotten about the sexism amongst the Qunari and in the Chantry. People are mostly chill when it comes to gender in Dragon Age, though, at least that's my impression. "(In the ancient Rome the people did not care about the skin colour of the slaves. They were so enlightened ...)" Not entirely sure what you meant there. I'm sure the slaves were very diverse?

Sorry, was sarcasm, but yes, In the ancient Rome the slavery was not race-based: for example the Roman citizens can they own child sold into slavery, yes, the slaves were very diverse: the slaves came from all parts of the empire. (Just you mentioned emperor Nero... From Nero comes to my mind the  feasts, murder – and slavery, as ancient Rome–Tevinter relation.)

 

Ah, I see, in relation to sexuality ... But why Nero? He are not the best example: he was cruel and mad (his madness is not justified, maybe just was the usual emperor-paranoia). 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I always wished the Antivans had Italian accents instead of Spanish.

They do, or at least most do. For example, Josephine Montilyet has an Italian accent. 

[Christy]

Sorry, was sarcasm, but yes, In the ancient Rome the slavery was not race-based: for example the Roman citizens can they own child sold into slavery, yes, the slaves were very diverse: the slaves came from all parts of the empire. (Just you mentioned emperor Nero... From Nero comes to my mind the  feasts, murder – and slavery, as ancient Rome–Tevinter relation.)

 

Ah, I see, in relation to sexuality ... But why Nero? He are not the best example: he was cruel and mad (his madness is not justified, maybe just was the usual emperor-paranoia). 

Ah, yes, Nero. I have a tendency to mix up names, but he was the art lover who wanted to be an actor, right? If so, I saw a documentary about him some years ago. Apparently he found this really beautiful man and wanted him as a lover. So he dressed him up as a woman and castrated him. That's kind of taboo, I guess, and it happened a very long time ago. If it isn't Nero I'm talking about then it has to be Caligula, the horse Senator guy. x)

 

 

They do, or at least most do. For example, Josephine Montilyet has an Italian accent. 

Oh really? O.o Haven't noticed that. Accents aren't my area of expertise. Zevran definitely had a SPanish accent, he sounded a lot like Antonio Banderas. And Feynriel's dad too, I seem to remember.

[Catilina]

Ah, yes, Nero. I have a tendency to mix up names, but he was the art lover who wanted to be an actor, right? If so, I saw a documentary about him some years ago. Apparently he found this really beautiful man and wanted him as a lover. So he dressed him up as a woman and castrated him. That's kind of taboo, I guess, and it happened a very long time ago. If it isn't Nero I'm talking about then it has to be Caligula, the horse Senator guy. x)

[...]

Yes, Nero was better than mediocre poet (and loved to be actor).

Caligula He was very beautiful guy... and very insane... (it is not clearly proved)

[nightscrawl]

Apologies if this was mentioned already, but if you're referring to characters like Vivienne and Isabela, both of those are either from Rivain or have Rivaini parents. People in Thedas with that appearance have that ethnicity.

 

The swarthier types, but not "black," -- Josephine, Dorian -- come from other countries like Antiva and Eastern Tevinter. Eastern Tevinter is more, well MIddle Eastern and Indian in terms of appearance, while Western Tevinter is more European.

[Christy]

Apologies if this was mentioned already, but if you're referring to characters like Vivienne and Isabela, both of those are either from Rivain or have Rivaini parents. People in Thedas with that appearance have that ethnicity.

 

The swarthier types, but not "black," -- Josephine, Dorian -- come from other countries like Antiva and Eastern Tevinter. Eastern Tevinter is more, well MIddle Eastern and Indian in terms of appearance, while Western Tevinter is more European.

Thanks, but I was first and foremost referring to the amount of dark skinned people around especially Haven and the Hinterlands in general. It looked like a modern day scene instead of a medievalish setting to me from time to time. Would there really be that much traveling going on in this kind of world? I'm not entirely sure.

 

The character of for example Isabela makes total sense to me. She's from Rivain where there are black people. She's a pirate, so she'll see the world. Master Dennet's background definitely made me wonder, though. Might have been because of the days of the Tevinter Imperium, though, that is true. I'll stick to that story when playing

[Andraste_Reborn]

My guess about why there are people of Rivani descent in Ferelden (and the Free Marches, and Orlais, and probably Antiva and Nevarra) is that the Rivani are a nation of sea traders and pirates AND they've had the Qunari on their doorsteps for hundreds of years. That probably inspires significant numbers of them to be elsewhere. Combine that with the relative absence of skin-colour based racism and the minimal religious differences between the Rivaini and everyone else, and there's no real reason for them not to move anywhere there's a port and start spreading out. Then they start marrying the existing locals and we get the likes of Duncan, Mother Giselle and Ser Barris.

 

The real question is where all the black people were in DAO, and alas I think the only answer is 'out the back hiding from the terrible engine that made them look purple.'

[GoldenGail3]

Were going to Tevinter, so of course we'll see people of color.

[Christy]

My guess about why there are people of Rivani descent in Ferelden (and the Free Marches, and Orlais, and probably Antiva and Nevarra) is that the Rivani are a nation of sea traders and pirates AND they've had the Qunari on their doorsteps for hundreds of years. That probably inspires significant numbers of them to be elsewhere. Combine that with the relative absence of skin-colour based racism and the minimal religious differences between the Rivaini and everyone else, and there's no real reason for them not to move anywhere there's a port and start spreading out. Then they start marrying the existing locals and we get the likes of Duncan, Mother Giselle and Ser Barris.

 

The real question is where all the black people were in DAO, and alas I think the only answer is 'out the back hiding from the terrible engine that made them look purple.'

Some very fine points there. I can't disagree with anything you said, so I'm starting to think that I might have been wrong in thinking that the number of dark skinned people in Ferelden seemed improbable. I also came to think about the state of the world; always in peril! Blights throughout history would definitely encourage a lot of migration as well (not necessarily to Ferelden, though, I'm pretty sure the place is cursed).

[Christy]

Were going to Tevinter, so of course we'll see people of color.

I know we're going to Tevinter. :-) I'm still hoping to see other nations such as Antiva and Rivain in the future, though. We had pretty big maps in DAI, and who knows how many sequels there will be. You may be right concerning people of color in Tevinter. I admit my knowledge of Tevinter is very lacking. I can't recall too many dark skinned people from Tevinter, though. I'm not actually sure what we would call Dorian. He's not white nor black. Yet he seems kinda.. Italian to me. Might be the mustache. I thought maybe his dad was black, but it was hard to tell with the room being so dark. Alexius wasn't black, and neither was the slave master of Fenris. I hear people saying Tevinter is sort of divided and that each section is inspired by different cultures, though, so it might be very varied.

[Aren]

More technically speaking: they came from the RNG. To at least somewhat disguise the constant recycling of relatively few character models - especially visible with your Inquisition soldiers since Haven / Skyhold were the only really populated areas in the game - BioWare opted to randomly pick the hair and skin colors of most unnamed side NPCs.

 

A very obvious moment is when you promote Ser Barris - when the camera pans to show the four saluting templars (or squires or whatever they are), you'll see that they all use the same model with randomly picked skin and hair colors. Which will be different every time, so they are not even consistent.

 

Also, BioWare finds diversity an important thing, so it's likely a win-win from their perspective.

You are right.

In DA most npc have the same model aside from a very restricted set of characters this was even confirmed in a post from Bioware.

[LobselVith8]

Oh really? O.o Haven't noticed that. Accents aren't my area of expertise. Zevran definitely had a SPanish accent, he sounded a lot like Antonio Banderas. And Feynriel's dad too, I seem to remember.

Josephine has an Italian accent, but you're right that Feynriel's father, Zevran, and other Antivans have had Latin/Spanish accents and even used Spanish words (as Antivan words). Post-Inquisition, Antiva is supposed to have people with both Spanish and Italian accents.

[GoldenGail3]

I know we're going to Tevinter. :-) I'm still hoping to see other nations such as Antiva and Rivain in the future, though. We had pretty big maps in DAI, and who knows how many sequels there will be. You may be right concerning people of color in Tevinter. I admit my knowledge of Tevinter is very lacking. I can't recall too many dark skinned people from Tevinter, though. I'm not actually sure what we would call Dorian. He's not white nor black. Yet he seems kinda.. Italian to me. Might be the mustache. I thought maybe his dad was black, but it was hard to tell with the room being so dark. Alexius wasn't black, and neither was the slave master of Fenris. I hear people saying Tevinter is sort of divided and that each section is inspired by different cultures, though, so it might be very varied.

The reason it was lacking in DAI is because maybe it was colder climates? That's what I'd think.