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[In Exile]

However, many characters in ME1 do express the idea that AIs and organics are fundamentally hostile and alien. I agree that this is not significant; anyone who knows Bio knows that this view was always going to be proven wrong.

I imagine that's why some of us felt so betrayed by Destroy. See, for instance, every third Iakus post.

It's weird, because ME1 fumbles the issue so badly. It's very clearly a game written by people that don't get AI, because Avina would be considered the most groundbreaking achievement in AI research IRL to date. Bioware underappreciated how essential understanding language is to AI, and then oversold their whole Pinocchio issue. Even IRL we don't really want to design human-like AI per se - because we already have lots of humans. We want to design intelligences that are super good at certain things.

The other problem with all of this of course is that the distinction is stupid. Being made out of meat doesn't make you intrinsically less likely to want to kill one another.

[The Twilight God]

What, exactly, about Reaper hardware is distinctive enough that the Crucible would target only it? It can't be the Reapers' cyberorganic nature, as EDI isn't that. How does that make more sense than targeting software? Also, you failed in that post to explain why it's impossible for it to target AIs. Indeed, "AI" doesn't even appear on that page. You also appear to be inventing something that didn't exist in the game (exposition from EDI) and failing to comprehend that "why are you here?" is a question that could apply to Shepard making it into the inner Citadel at all, not just to the Catalyst's platform. We also, well, see that the Catalyst wakes Shepard up by speaking to her.

I did not fail. I made an airtight case for why it's absurd for it to be able to target Geth without indiscriminately destroying all technology.

We already know Reaper hardware is distinctive because EDI can detect "reaper signatures", per ME2. EDI's blue box (i.e. her brain) is made from Sovereign's . Patrick Weekes said so himself (and, yes, the game does too) and stated that was the reason the writers decided she would have to die with them. As Reapers are synthesized (i.e. organic/synthetic hybrids) for the crucible's blast to be designed to break down that particular type of tech isn't too farfetched. It's a particular technology.

In the case of Geth there is nothing physically that identifies a Geth. Geth can be any tech. A starship, a helicopter, a Qurian suit, a space station, a server, a data pad, etc. The Protheans, who designed the Crucible, would not have known what a Geth is much less designed a blast to target even the standard Geth platform (which would not be enough to destroy all the Geth even if it could because they're uploaded into other non-geth designed objects too). The current cycle's races didn't even know exactly what it would do. Only that it would destroy Reapers per the Protheans' claim. So don't think for a second that they had the knowledge to tweak it to kill Geth.

A husk is not a AI. Note that the husks are completely vaporized. If it targets AI (which they aren't, but for the sake of argument let's say they are) why would it vaporize the bodies? Why don't the Reaper ships vaporize? Because only the terminator inside is synthesized like the husks. If it destroys anything synthetic why don't all the citadel fleet ships disintegrate? Kasumi's grey box? Shepard's synthetics? Data pads, Qurian suits, etc., etc., etc. The Kid claims synthetics, which it explains to be "technology you rely on", will be targeted. He either A.) lied or B.) overestimated the Crucible. In either case the affect of being "targeted" and "affected" amounted to nothing tangible. This is an objective fact that is shown in the ending. It doesn't do anything noticeable to non-synthesized materials in high EMS. In low EMS it destroys everything indiscriminately.

Shepard simply wakes up and is on all fours. When he looks up the kid is approaching. The Kid does not wake him up in that scenario.

[straykat]

I figured it had to do with software as well and the Geth's new AI upgrades.

 

Not that I try thinking about it too much... that helps

[The Twilight God]

Those aren't mutually exclusive. The latter may drive the former.

I'm not sure what words to use. By now you should understand my meaning.

Yes, technically both could be considered bad writing. But there are different types of bad writing. One is a bad story, even though it is narratively consistent (for the most part). The other is a sloppy inconsistent mess that makes no sense and is in direct conflict with itself.

To put it another way one is a ugly house, that is otherwise up to building code. Just so ugly no one wants to buy it.

The other is a random assortment of building materials that isn't up to code. The windows are on the floors. The doors are positioned sideways and on the upper part of the walls. There is no roof. The house is made on untreated wood. And there is no foundation.

[The Twilight God]

I figured it had to do with software as well and the Geth's new AI upgrades.
 
Not that I try thinking about it too much... that helps

This is all covered here.

https://forum.biowar...2#entry11725851

[straykat]

The Geth are not in the EC slides, so it's easy to assume they're gone.

 

Either way, I don't care to read all of that. I killed Legion anyways. I don't see the point in killing the Geth if you didn't already kill them on Rannoch. You're giving the nod for Reaper code use there as it is... you have no good reason to try anything other than Control or Synthesis after that. It's essentially the same choice.

[The Twilight God]

The Geth are not in the EC slides, so it's easy to assume they're gone.
 
Either way, I don't care to read all of that. I killed Legion anyways. I don't see the point in killing the Geth if you didn't already kill them on Rannoch. You're giving the nod for Reaper code use there as it is... you have no good reason to try anything other than Control or Synthesis after that. It's essentially the same choice.

Well if you're just going to ignore facts there's nothing more to say really.

[straykat]

Well if you're just going to ignore facts there's nothing more to say really.

 

Ignore what facts? I'm against facts because I don't read some dorky wall of text on the subject? I just said that the Geth might have been targeted because of their software. Nothing more, nothing less. The only "fact" I know is that they aren't in the EC's version of Destroy. Yet they are in Synthesis and Control.

 

But I have no personal stake in defending this. I already kill Legion at Rannoch, personally. I don't understand people who want both the Geth and Destroy. 

[Xilizhra]

I did not fail. I made an airtight case for why it's absurd for it to be able to target Geth without indiscriminately destroying all technology.

No, you didn't.

 

 

We already know Reaper hardware is distinctive because EDI can detect "reaper signatures", per ME2. EDI's blue box (i.e. her brain) is made from Sovereign's . Patrick Weekes said so himself (and, yes, the game does too) and stated that was the reason the writers decided she would have to die with them. As Reapers are synthesized (i.e. organic/synthetic hybrids) for the crucible's blast to be designed to break down that particular type of tech isn't too farfetched. It's a particular technology.

I'll need a full citation and context for "Reaper signatures" before I can cover that. I'll also need a quote for saying that EDI's brain was made from Sovereign's, from both the game and Weekes, especially since the Reapers more closely resemble giant geth platforms, with billions of programs running inside them, and don't have single brains/CPUs/what have you.

 

 

In the case of Geth there is nothing physically that identifies a Geth. Geth can be any tech. A starship, a helicopter, a Qurian suit, a space station, a server, a data pad, etc. The Protheans, who designed the Crucible, would not have known what a Geth is much less designed a blast to target even the standard Geth platform (which would not be enough to destroy all the Geth even if it could because they're uploaded into other non-geth designed objects too). The current cycle's races didn't even know exactly what it would do. Only that it would destroy Reapers per the Protheans' claim. So don't think for a second that they had the knowledge to tweak it to kill Geth.

The Protheans only designed a tiny portion of the Crucible, and it might not have been the weapons systems. And I very much doubt it would kill only the geth; VIs and the like would likely be fried as well.

 

 

A husk is not a AI. Note that the husks are completely vaporized. If it targets AI (which they aren't, but for the sake of argument let's say they are) why would it vaporize the bodies? Why don't the Reaper ships vaporize? Because only the terminator inside is synthesized like the husks. If it destroys anything synthetic why don't all the citadel fleet ships disintegrate? Kasumi's grey box? Shepard's synthetics? Data pads, Qurian suits, etc., etc., etc. The Catalyst claims synthetics, which it explains to be "technology you rely on", will be targeted. He either A.) lied or B.) overestimated the Crucible. In either case the affect of being "targeted" and "affected" amounted to nothing tangible. This is an objective fact that is shown in the ending. It doesn't do anything noticeable to non-synthesized materials in high EMS. In low EMS it destroys everything indiscriminately.

A kill switch once the Reaper controlling them is knocked out seems quite likely. Especially since if "synthesized material" is the target, Shepard herself would have been targeted.

 

 

Shepard simply wakes up and is on all fours. When he looks up the Catalyst is approaching. The Catalyst does not wake him up in that scenario.

Aside from the fact that that leaves the elevator, and the fact that the Catalyst didn't have to tell Shepard anything at all (including how Destroy would work), claiming that the entire room was a trap is asinine. Nowhere else in the entire franchise have Reapers created indoctrination technology that only works if people grab hold of it; they all have an aura that passively covers the area. Just leaving Shepard within the radius of one of those things would work... if the Reapers didn't just stick a few high-powered, shielded gun turrets in the room to kill anyone who came up.

 

More importantly, I do have a better, non-trappy explanation for how Control works. For one thing, I believe that the Leviathans built the Citadel; it's the only thing that makes sense. It would have been safer for the Reapers to move the Catalyst back into dark space if there was no Citadel, but if the Reapers had built the Citadel around the Catalyst, there's no reason at all the Catalyst wouldn't have been controlling the Citadel's systems to manage the Reaper trap, instead of letting the Reapers be forced to rely on the keepers. The only way the keeper issue would have made sense is for the Catalyst to have been designed without the ability to control the Citadel's functions (until, perhaps, the Crucible is installed), and that only makes sense if the Leviathans built the Citadel. And if the Leviathans did build the Citadel... the Catalyst was built to be, well, a catalyst for peace between synthetics and organics. I strongly suspect that the control interface was built for a trusted Leviathan thrall to be uploaded into the Citadel as the template for the Catalyst, creating a synthetic-organic fusion.

[AlanC9]

Does declaring your own case to be "airtight" ever work?

[Iakus]

I figured it had to do with software as well and the Geth's new AI upgrades.

 

Not that I try thinking about it too much... that helps

 

What sort of energy pulse could wipe out all Linux systems but leave Windows alone?

[straykat]

What sort of energy pulse could wipe out all Linux systems but leave Windows alone?

 

But Geth aren't an entirely different platform anymore. That code made them closer to the Reapers.

 

You'll have to ask how they even uploaded that code in the first place... but apparently they did. You'd think that powerful AI code would take new hardware too, but it didn't. And that alone made them like EDI or the Reapers.

[The Twilight God]

What sort of energy pulse could wipe out all Linux systems but leave Windows alone?

This is a no facts or logic zone, apparently. I've come to the conclusion that emotion and gut feelings are all people are interested in when it comes to Mass Effect. Basic common sense observations like yours will fly right over their heads.

[Xilizhra]

This is a no facts or logic zone, apparently. I've come to the conclusion that emotion and gut feelings are all people are interested in when it comes to Mass Effect. Basic common sense observations like yours will fly right over their heads.

From one debater to another, this will look much less like blatant ass-covering of your inability to actually prove your argument if you respond to my post.

 

What sort of energy pulse could wipe out all Linux systems but leave Windows alone?

You may as well ask what sort of energy pulse could install synthetic components into all organic life.

[straykat]

This is a no facts or logic zone, apparently. I've come to the conclusion that emotion and gut feelings are all people are interested in when it comes to Mass Effect. Basic common sense observations like yours will fly right over their heads.

 

A whole zone with "no facts or logic"? Really, dude? You're going with that?

 

You're flailing at the wind at this point. I don't read everyone's posts here, but I'm pretty sure it's not a whole zone lacking in "facts". All I've done is talk about things in the games, personally. Those "basic common sense" observations you value.

[Seraphim24]

Destroy is best... did I mention that?

 

It's really the only option.

[SKAR]

Destroy is best... did I mention that?

It's really the only option.

I don't know.... controlling the Reaper for peace sounds like a good deal.

[straykat]

I don't know.... controlling the Reaper for peace sounds like a good deal.

 

Whose peace?

 

Wait, don't answer that. I think people who like to control things can't see what I'm trying to say.

[Seraphim24]

I don't know.... controlling the Reaper for peace sounds like a good deal.

 

You can't control things that are trying to kill you, ultimately that's going to go backwards.

[SKAR]

Whose peace?

Wait, don't answer that. I think people who like to control things can't see what I'm trying to say.

We are not a dictator you dumb ****. We are basically the peacekeeper of the galaxy. But someone who like to commit genocide over the great good wouldn't understand. It's ironic but the Illusive man was right.

[SKAR]

You can't control things that are trying to kill you, ultimately that's going to go backwards.

That's funny. The extended cut says differently.

[straykat]

We are not a dictator you dumb ****. We are basically the peacekeeper of the galaxy. But someone who like to commit genocide over the great good wouldn't understand. It's ironic but the Illusive man was right.

 

Jumped right to calling me a ******. Good one. You'll make a great leader, Comrade Skar.

[SKAR]

Jumped right to calling me a ******. Good one. You'll make a great leader, Comrade Skar.

you're being an ***hole over some crap endings. Why shouldn't you be treated as such?

[Seraphim24]

Whoa... all hostile here for some reason...

[SKAR]

Whoa... all hostile here for some reason...

Bioware forums.