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[The Twilight God]

The Catalyst was altered somehow by the attachment of the Crucible. I suspect this was one of those functions of the Crucible that the current cycle didn't know about. And we also don't know what the Catalyst's thought process was, though it was likely based on flawed premises.

It wasn't altered. If Shepard dallies the reapers destroy the Crucible and it's a Game Over. If any altering took place why are the Reapers still fighting? Why didn't they just leave the battlefield? How is Refuse even still under consideration by Star Brat if things have changed? Try again.

The Control and Synthesis machinery was already there before the Crucible even connected. It's literally hardwired into the Citadel and you can see from the docking cutscene that none of it came with the Crucible. Try again.

Control and Synthesis were prepared in advance. Hackett and all the scientist working on it say it's a weapon to destroy the Reapers. The Kid calls the Crucible "just a battery". So it catches itself in it's own lie. If you believe in the Kid and say it's just a battery than it must serve to power Control and Synthesis. It isn't directly responsible for either. Where destroy is what the Crucible itself does. And if you want to claim otherwise remember that the Citadel was only needed for the relays to spread the energy. The Crucible was initially a standalone device, but could only effect a small range. That's why at some point some race decided to incorporate the Citadel and the relays. So, yes, Destroy is it's default and only function. Try again.

And the Catalyst is just a term the Protheans used to mask the identity of the Citadel as the "range extender" for the Crucible. Therefore the very notion of it claiming to be the catalyst is a outright lie. Try Again.

It's like the writers are beating people on the head with this stuff.

[Iakus]

 

 

You may as well ask what sort of energy pulse could install synthetic components into all organic life.

I do ask that.  As do many others.

[The Twilight God]

I do ask that.  As do many others.

TL:DR It's not possible and does not happen in the game. At least not in any meaningful way.

Synthesis isn't energy so much as it's a cloud of reaper nanites riding on an energy wave. Even then it's not possible and does not happen in-game in accordance with what the Kid claimed.
 

Synthesis is a Practical Impossibility

The Kid claims, "The chain reaction will combine all synthetic and organic life into a new framework. A new... DNA."

If we are to believe Synthesis allows us to maintain our humanity, physically changing our organic DNA was never a possibility. Synthetic technology could never be literally infused into DNA as DNA exists at the atomic level; at or below the possible atomic complexity of nanotechnology. DNA is an organic process. A non-linear multi-dimensional mathematical equation expressed in the form of chemical reactions whose answer equates to a biological organism. There is not, nor can there be, synthetic DNA as the molecular structure of metals and plastics are mutually exclusive to DNA characteristics. Any genetic improvements would still leave the subject fully organic and any drastic change would fundamentally alter the properties of the affected species. In effect, creating a new species. And none of these changes would give synthetic life forms any greater understanding of organic life forms. Fortunately, Synthesis does not depict such a ludicrous concept.

What we see when the synthesis blast wave reaches the Earth's surface is that it contains a green haze whose particulates gravitate toward synthetic and organic material. The imagery shown during EDI's narration in the synthesis ending testifies to the falsehood of the Kid's claim that Synthesis will create a new DNA. The organic DNA itself remains unaltered. What does occur is the encasement of unspecified DNA base pairs within green glowing nanotechnology, the superficial coating of the eyes with these nanites and those same nanites encasing neutrons; All the while giving off a distinctive electronic reverberation. Not only that, but additional visually apparent dermal circuitry akin to that which runs under the Illusive Man's skin is seen on each recipient. The very fact that the outcome of synthesis is superficially apparent indicates that the change is not (or is not purely) on an atomic level. Given what is shown in this same CGI scene, covering every strand of DNA is technically impossible.

For the sake of argument let's use modern day nanomaterials to calculate an estimate energy requirement for Synthesis. One form of modern day nanomaterial is a carbon nanotube (CNT). It's standard quantity is 500 carbon atoms. In a more complicated nanorobotic device it would only be a single component analogous to wiring. Another form of nanomaterial is a Buckminsterfullerene, also called a buckyball (BB). It is composed of 60 carbon atoms. Its uses range from imaging and diagnostics to tracing and removing free radicals. We see a similar structures of nanites encasing DNA in the CGI opening of EDI's narration: Lines (CNT) and dots (BB). The Citadel in combination with the Crucible would have to produce at least 48 BBs and 116 CNTs per DNA base pair based on what we are shown. Using the standard units of each nanomaterial we have a grand total of 60,880 carbon atoms. Note: 43.1 sextillion carbon atoms holds an amount of energy relative to a nuclear detonation.

Let's do the math:

60,880 atoms per DNA base pair
6.34 billion base pairs per DNA strand
46 strands per human cell
100 trillion human cells

Alright, 60,880... carry the one... calculate pi... divide by two... *cough* = 1.7 nonillion carbon atoms

Aproximately 0.00060 to 0.000860 kgs of uranium-235 actually converted to an energy state out of the 64.1 kgs used to fuel the bomb that destroyed Hiroshima. There is no proper comparison for carbon vs uranium fission as carbon is stable and is not used for fission. All sub-atmoic particulaes being equal, the only way to actually compare their nuclear yield potential - hypothetically - would be by atomic mass. I'll use the higher estimate for the sake of argument.

Uranium-235 has an atomic weight of 235 daltons
235 daltons = 0.000000000000000000000000390226646607 kgs
The bomb dropped on Hiroshima used 0.000860 kgs of uranium-235 = 1 NE (nuclear explosion)
0.000860 kgs / 0.000000000000000000000000390226646607 kgs = 2203847449879840000000 uranium atoms

Carbon-12-has an atomic weight of 12 daltons
12 daltons = 0.000000000000000000000000019926482399999998 kgs
The bomb dropped on Hiroshima used 0.000860 kgs of uranium-235 = 1 NE (nuclear explosion)
0.000860 kgs / 0.000000000000000000000000019926482399999998 kgs = 43158646003671900000000

2,203,847,449,879,840,000,000 sextillion uranium atoms = 1 NE
43,158,646,003,671,900,000,000 sextillion carbon atoms = 1 NE

Based on these number we would need 19.6 times as many carbon atoms to equate to the same total mass as uranium. So we must divide 1,700,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 nonillion by 19.6 to achieve the uranium equivalent. This gives us 86,734,693,877,551,000,000,000,000,000 octillion uranium atoms.

86.7 octillion divided by 2.2 sextillion = 39,356,033 NEs per human being.

It would require 39.3 million nuclear explosions worth of energy just to synthesis a single human being. The galaxy contains trillions of humanoid sapient species. And we can't forget other flora and fauna. Consider the fact that the energy contained within the blast expands in all directions, the majority of its nanites are lost and/or wasted on empty space and lifeless worlds. If 90% of the galaxy is dark matter, only 10% of the nanites will reach traditional matter. Less than 0.01% will reach a habitable world. And even that is being extremely generous given the distance between stars. On top of that the amount of nanites per "square light year" is reduced the farther out the blast wave expands from the epicenter. So less than 0.01% of the synthesis blast must contain 39.3 million nuclear detonations (multiplied by untold trillions) worth of synthesized nanobots. Again, that would be less than 0.01% of the total blast energy. Synthesis, based on what is shown to the player, simply cannot work. The energy requirements are just too great. It would require a "quantifiably infinite" amount of energy. In fact, it's highly doubtful that synthesis could even take hold outside of the immediate range of a star system with a mass relay.

The only way Synthesis could work conventionally is to transmute the existing structure of the host body into new nanites in a manner akin to chemical reaction. That is, the nanites will have to replicate by breaking down existing material to create more nanites. Obviously, this is not possible in the short-term without deteriorating the host's body. So the nanites must replicate slowly, little by little over the course of weeks or months. The Synthesis ending does not depict that kind of process. The ending shows only the initial instantaneous superficial application of nanites. We see these extra-bodily devices attach to the existing organic material. You literal see the nanites coat Major Coats eyes to give it the green glow. I presume the circuitry is also skin deep as Joker is still limping when he exits the Normandy. So his bones haven't been strengthened. The crate the asari and human are carrying still requires two people to lift. The player never sees what the final result will be. And if you think what you see in the ending is the final result I will explain in the next section why this cannot be the case if synthesis is going to solve the Kid's proposed problem. Near the end of EDI's narration we see neutrons and synapses being caked in reaper nanites.

The Illusive Man once said to Paul Grayson, "You're being implanted with self replicating nanites. Their numbers will increase exponentially as they graft themselves onto your neurons and synapses. Eventually they will spread throughout your body, transforming you into a tool of the Reapers. You will be repurposed into a synthetic-organic hybrid unlike any of the Council races could possibly create." - excerpt from Mass Effect: Retribution

Just because we do not see the full transformation doesn't mean it does not occur after the credits. Rome was not built in a day and neither was Paul Grayson's transformation. The full effects must occur after the credits roll because it can be objectively demonstrated why nothing has changed which would prevent any supposedly unavoidable organic-synthetic conflict.

The Cerberus HQ logs contain a conversation in which a Cerberus scientist states, "Grayson's brain was a mess. He must have been completely under Reaper control by the end."
The Illusive Man asks, " And the physical enhancements?"
The scientist replies, "Extremely impressive. If we could avoid having entire neural pathways rewritten in the process."

As the Great Dr. Mordin Solus would say, "Implications... unpleasant."

[Seraphim24]

Control

Eternal. Infinite. Immortal.
The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them.
Through his death, I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed. They guide me now, give me reason, direction.
There is power in control. There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy.

Shepard spouting the same stuff TIM and Sovereign were saying even though Shepard has disproved Sovereign's claims. Yeah, a non-indoctrinated Shepard would really call Reapers eternal, infinite and immortal. This isn't even taking into account how people think the Kid is incapable of lying, even though just beforehand it was trying to convince Shepard that Reapers are just dumb machines just doing what they are designed to do. LOL. The game and the books (especially the books) show this to be false as there are parts where the reader gets a look from the perspective of the Reapers themselves as Paul Grayson is hooked into their collective. They are not just dumb programs following ancient orders.

If we are to take the Kid seriously, I'm sure Shepard can police the galaxy where the Reapers apparently couldn't. Billions of years of experience will surely be shadowed by 30 odd years of Shepard's vast knowledge. We can have upmost confidence that he will not fail and resort to the Harvest. A race of super computer AI's collective brainpower and experience couldn't solve the problem but Shepard will. OK. LOL. And if Shepard can keep everything under control by just policing everything, then the Kid is lying about inevitably, having no other choice than the Cycle and whatnot. There is no way any of it can add up properly.


Synthesis

Saren says, "The relationship is symbiotic. Organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel. The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither."
The Kid says, "Organics will be perfected by fully integrating with synthetic technology. Synthetics in turn will finally have full understanding of organics."
Sovereign says, "We impose order on the chaos of organic evolution."
Harbinger says, "We are the harbinger of your perfection."

Saren says, "I am a vision of the future, Shepard. The evolution of all organic life."
The Kid says, "Synthesis is the final evolution of all life."
Sovereign says, "We are eternal. The pinnacle of evolution and existence."
Harbinger says, "Progress cannot be halted. Evolution cannot be stopped. We are your genetic destiny."

Saren says, "This is our destiny."
The Kid says, "It is inevitable that you will reach Synthesis."
Sovereign says, "We are the end of everything."
Harbinger says, "You have only delayed the inevitable. They will be as we are."

The ending where everyone is forced into a drugged state of submission. And all the husks simply mimic the behavior of any organic nearby. Joker is still limping and the organics are still physically weak and require two people to carry a crate. Literally nothing changed but some skin lights and the sudden placation of all organic resistance. And let's not forget that Reapers are already synthesized. What is synthesis going to do to them? This is going to end well for sure. LOL.


Destroy

All the things are rekt. The End.

 

It's not "all the things" It's the Reapers. I feel like someone is trying to tell me the bad guy is good, or even specified in the story as bad.

[The Twilight God]

It's not "all the things" It's the Reapers. I feel like someone is trying to tell me the bad guy is good, or even specified in the story as bad.

Well, I feel destroy leaves the galaxy in ruins. All the major population hubs are rekt. The relay network is rekt. So there is no infrastructure, people can't practically travel between stars. Civilization has pretty much been knocked back to a "stone age". Billions, if not trillions will die of injury, disease, starvation, etc.

I guess it beats the alternatives: Being Harvested by Shreaperd or getting the Paul Grayson treatment.

[Xilizhra]

It wasn't altered. If Shepard dallies the reapers destroy the Crucible and it's a Game Over. If any altering took place why are the Reapers still fighting? Why didn't they just leave the battlefield? How is Refuse even still under consideration by Star Brat if things have changed? Try again.

Non sequitur. Just because the Catalyst was changed doesn't mean that it can't allow the Reapers to destroy the Crucible.

 

 

The Control and Synthesis machinery was already there before the Crucible even connected. It's literally hardwired into the Citadel and you can see from the docking cutscene that none of it came with the Crucible. Try again.

I already gave another explanation for the control interface, one you ignored. As for Synthesis, my guess is that the Catalyst was stockpiling the necessary nanites but was unable to actually use them without the Crucible.

 

 

Control and Synthesis were prepared in advance. Hackett and all the scientist working on it say it's a weapon to destroy the Reapers. The Kid calls the Crucible "just a battery". So it catches itself in it's own lie. If you believe in the Kid and say it's just a battery than it must serve to power Control and Synthesis. It isn't directly responsible for either. Where destroy is what the Crucible itself does. And if you want to claim otherwise remember that the Citadel was only needed for the relays to spread the energy. The Crucible was initially a standalone device, but could only effect a small range. That's why at some point some race decided to incorporate the Citadel and the relays. So, yes, Destroy is it's default and only function. Try again.

The term "catalyst" was first used by the Leviathans when describing their Intelligence as a catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics. I suspect it took the name upon itself, replacing the Leviathan-designated name, after it harvested the Leviathans. When the Crucible was altered to make use of the Citadel, I suspect some of the designers were able to discover the Catalyst's true nature and used that name when developing the Crucible (this was not, I believe, discovered by the Protheans initially), though they were still unable to stop the harvest. As for the Crucible itself, it's a necessary projector for the new Control signal or the Synthesis wave to be projected across the galaxy.

[Seraphim24]

Well, I feel destroy leaves the galaxy in ruins. All the major population hubs are rekt. The relay network is rekt. So there is no infrastructure, people can't practically travel between stars. Civilization has pretty much been knocked back to a "stone age". Billions, if not trillions will die of injury, disease, starvation, etc.

I guess it beats the alternatives: Being Harvested by Shreaperd or getting the Paul Grayson treatment.

 

I don't know, sounds like the kids broke their toys and now have to meditate on the fact that they came from someone else. I can't say that's a bad thing.

 

From the perspective of Stone Agers, a big arch was an exciting thing, I think the members of the ME universe have lost all perspective as far as "civilization" goes and this barren landscape is good for them..

 

I don't even know why we're leaving the Milky Way in MEA, to be honest.

[The Twilight God]

Non sequitur. Just because the Catalyst was changed doesn't mean that it can't allow the Reapers to destroy the Crucible.

So I guess the variables haven't changed. Which also ruins the entire inevitability angle because if the variables changed and it would like Shepard to choose another path, how can it continue with the Cycles if it acknowledges there are different solutions. If there are other solutions like policing the galaxy, which the Reapers can do with or without Shreaperd, it cannot honestly claim to just be a dumb program doing what it's told. It's making a decision to ignore the other solutions and continue it's own experiment. Even in the conversation it says that it tried other things as their "efforts always ending in conflict, so a new solution was required". Ignoring the facts won't make them go away. Try again.

I'm not sure you know what a non sequitor is. You said it was changed. I say it's not and gives reasons why it's not.
 

I already gave another explanation for the control interface, one you ignored. As for Synthesis, my guess is that the Catalyst was stockpiling the necessary nanites but was unable to actually use them without the Crucible.

As for your Control explanation the Leviathans did not create the relays (which include the Citadel). The Intelligence orchestrated that. That Kid is not the Citadel. ME1 cannot even exist under those conditions. At best it's something that was brought into the Citadel after they captured it. Most likely it's just a Reaper induced hallucination like at the end of Arrival (i.e. I'm not even sure it was THE Intelligence). The fact that it looks like the kid from Earth which haunted Shep's dreams (and may have been a reaper induced hallucination itself) and that it's voice features that of Shepard's voice plus a cacophony of other whispers supports this. They literally took the codex definition of indoctrination and visiually presented it. Like I said, they are hitting people over the head with this stuff. Try again.

Synthesis only works with a very high EMS. Because it requires a terrible amount of energy to pull off. It's actually quite logical. I've pulled this from my HDD files. It's part of the addendum I was talking about earlier. The link in the thread no longer works for some reason. Skip it if you're not interest in how I know Synthesis requires a high amount of energy.
 

A Further Analysis of the Low EMS vs. High EMS
The subject of EMS in relation to ending options

Effective Military Strength (EMS) is the rating that dictates the military strength of your combined fleets. The lower the number, the less effective your forces are against the Reapers. A low EMS (0-1749) results in several reaper destroyers breaking through the Shield Fleet assigned to escort the Crucible. The outcome is that the Crucible is severely damaged upon arrival.

Low EMS

If the Collector Base is destroyed the Reaper Heart survives the blast and is recovered by Cerberus. This "heart" was used by Cerberus to power their headquarters. It is acquired as a war asset once Cerberus HQ is shut down and is utilized in the construction of the Crucible; presumably as a primary power supply to operate its systems. Reaper components are apparently more durable than standard components and therefore survives the reaper attack. The Crucible has power to operate, but its processing systems are degraded. For this reason the Crucible's energy is indiscriminate with low EMS because the Crucible can't perform the necessary calculations to refine its energy.

In the alternate Control-Only scenarios the Reaper Brain is recovered from the intact Collector Base. This "brain" was used by Cerberus as a computational device capable of crunching unheard of amounts of data in nanoseconds. It is acquired as a war asset once Cerberus HQ is shut down and is utilized in the construction of the Crucible; presumably as a primary processing unit which is used to compute the necessary calculations to produce a stable release of energy. Because the Crucible's primary power source is destroyed, it is incapable of operating under its own power and therefore Destroy is not an option. However, the intact "brain" can still be uploaded with Shepard's psychological code and make the necessary computations necessary to distribute this code.

Deductive Analysis:

1. In mid and high EMS scenarios, both Control and Destroy options are available.
2. In low EMS scenarios the heart or brain decide which option of the two (Destroy or Control respectively) is available.
3. Low EMS scenarios results in the Reapers severely damaging the Crucible.
4. Therefore, the greater damage sustained in low EMS scenarios must account for the lack of choices in low EMS scenarios.
5. The Heart is a power source per the codex.
6. The Brain is a computational processor per the codex.
7. The Heart allows for only Destroy in low EMS; Therefore, the ability to destroy must be linked to the presence of the power the heart provides.
8. The Brain allows for only Control in low EMS; Therefore, the ability to utilize the control prongs must be linked to the presence of the computational computer.
9. Given the fact that the human reaper parts survive the Reaper attacks against the Crucible and the fact that if those parts aren't present its associated capabilities are lost, it is deduced that the Reaper parts are more durable than the standard non-reaper parts that take their place if they are absent.
10. If you have the heart, you do not have the processor brain. Therefore you have a power source for the Crucible, but no computational capabilities.
11. If you have the processor brain you do not have the heart. Therefore you have computational capabilities, but no power to run the Crucible.
12. The lack of computational capabilities and the presence of a power source allows for an energy release that destroys everything indiscriminately.
13. The presence of computational capabilities and a power source (in mid and high EMS) allows for a Crucible that targets reaper technology.
14. Conclusion #1: The computational capabilities of the Crucible determine the effects of the blast wave.
15. The lack of a power source and presence of computational capabilities allows for the control ending with damage to the Normandy, Big Ben collapsing and critical damage to the relays.
16. The presence of computational capabilities and a power source (in mid and high EMS) results in the control ending with minimum damage to the relays, Big Ben standing and a relatively undamaged Normandy.
17. The lack of computational capabilities and the presence of a power source results in the inability to initiate the control ending.
18: Conclusion #2: Control is not heavily dependent on the Crucible's power, but instead is dependent on its computational capabilities.

Mid EMS

In this scenarios the Crucible has taken damage, but not enough for any crucial system to be outright destroyed. The presence of either the Heart or the Brain still matter however. Therefore, it can be deduced that some amount of damage to the non-reaper component still takes place. For instance, if you have the brain the EMS requirements for the high EMS version of the control ending is lowered. Likewise, if you have the heart the EMS requirement to achieve the high EMS Destroy ending is lowered.

The Crucible is too damaged to power Synthesis, which is essentially forming synthetic molecules from pure energy. The power requirements would equate to a nuclear detonation per atom. Multiply this by the amount of new atoms created to match existing atoms and Synthesis requires enough energy to match or nearly match the energy contained within the entire galaxy. Or convert that same amount of dark matter into traditional matter. Yes, it's absurd. Regardless, this is why Synthesis requires a high EMS.

High EMS

This designation varies depending on the ending and which reaper component you possess. However, for the purposes of this thesis high EMS represents a score high enough to allow for all three Crucible related endings. In this scenario the Crucible takes no damage. At least none that we see on screen. The following are EMS requirement (ignoring reaper component bonuses) that may or may not be accurate.

Destroy:
Low EMS: 0 - 1749
Mid EMS 1750 - 2649
High EMS: 2650 and up

Control
Low EMS: 0 - 2349
High EMS: 2350 and up
(There is no separate Mid EMS Control outcome)

Synthesis:
High EMS - 2800 EMS and up

With an EMS of 3100 and up Shepard can survive the Destroy ending assuming The Illusive Man did not execute Anderson. If Anderson was executed I believe the requirement is 4000 EMs and up. The survival at 3100+ may represent the fact that rescue teams arrived in time to save Shepard's life due to a higher number of surviving forces and hence a greater number of search teams combing the Citadel for survivors. At the beginning of the breathe scene you can hear debris being shuffled around indicated rescuers are nearby. So the next question is why does the manner in which Anderson dies matter at all? It is possible that he did not die right away, but rather regained consciousness while Shepard was chatting with Starbinger and managed to inform the Alliance where they were which narrowed down the search. Or perhaps Anderson didn't die and is the one we hear shuffling through the debris if you have 3100+ EMS. Speculation for everyone.

By claiming the Reapers had a stockpile of nanites ready to go, you are undermining your own position. Even from your flawed perspective the Reapers were not changed prior to the Crucible docking. Therefore, any reaper nanites they would have made were NOT for our benefit. They would have served the Reaper's Harvesting goals. Try Again.
 

The term "catalyst" was first used by the Leviathans when describing their Intelligence as a catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics. I suspect it took the name upon itself, replacing the Leviathan-designated name, after it harvested the Leviathans. When the Crucible was altered to make use of the Citadel, I suspect some of the designers were able to discover the Catalyst's true nature and used that name when developing the Crucible (this was not, I believe, discovered by the Protheans initially), though they were still unable to stop the harvest. As for the Crucible itself, it's a necessary projector for the new Control signal or the Synthesis wave to be projected across the galaxy.

It does not matter what wording the Leviathans used. They used catalyst as noun, not a title (not really sure about even that). The Leviathans simply called it "The Intelligence". In any regard, the Protheans use of the codename Catalyst to hide the identity of the Citadel. The Catalyst is the Citadel. Not some Reaper AI. No one even knew about the Kid. If they did you would be stating that the protheans plan was to fight their way through the Reapers, dock it with the Citadel and then hope the Reaper Kid capitulated? That's your idea? You can't pull the Crucible changed them nonsense because you just stated it could be changed and still keep trying to kill everyone. So any idea that it would shackle the AI has already been refuted by you yourself (not to mention the game itself via Refuse). You really are scrapping the bottom of the barrel trying to explain away the FACTS that prove your are wrong. Try again.

[AngryFrozenWater]

...

 

The term "catalyst" was first used by the Leviathans when describing their Intelligence as a catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics.

 

...

The leviathans never mention the "Child" as a "catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics". That part comes from the ending of ME3. Instead, the leviathans consistently call it "the Intelligence".

 

Edit 1: From the perspective of the leviathans the Intelligence was not created to end the war between organics and synthetics. They could not care less. After all, they were the apex species of their time and the other species were their thralls. Their problem was purely economic, because "tribute does not flow from a dead race". The Intelligence was created to solve that problem.

 

Edit 2: I've scanned the Leviathan DLC for the word "catalyst". It is never mentioned by the leviathans. Of course it shouldn't, because the DLC can be played before the ending and mentioning the word "catalyst" would be a spoiler.

[In Exile]

The leviathans never mention the "Child" as a "catalyst for peace between organics and synthetics". That part comes from the ending of ME3. Instead, the leviathans consistently call it "the Intelligence".

 

And thus were born the galaxy's first hipsters, apparently. 

[dreamgazer]

Does declaring your own case to be "airtight" ever work?

If that were the case, we wouldn't have politics, religion ... pretty much anything, really.

[Steelcan]

Twilight God if you want to endlessly repeat your own ideas about the ending, how about necroing your thread

[Xilizhra]

So I guess the variables haven't changed. Which also ruins the entire inevitability angle because if the variables changed and it would like Shepard to choose another path, how can it continue with the Cycles if it acknowledges there are different solutions. If there are other solutions like policing the galaxy, which the Reapers can do with or without Shreaperd, it cannot honestly claim to just be a dumb program doing what it's told. It's making a decision to ignore the other solutions and continue it's own experiment. Even in the conversation it says that it tried other things as their "efforts always ending in conflict, so a new solution was required". Ignoring the facts won't make them go away. Try again.

I'm not sure you know what a non sequitor is. You said it was changed. I say it's not and gives reasons why it's not.

Well, the Catalyst will keep doing what it's doing if Shepard refuses to do anything. It appears to be judging the cycle as a whole by Shepard's actions.

 

 

As for your Control explanation the Leviathans did not create the relays (which include the Citadel). The Intelligence orchestrated that. That Kid is not the Citadel. ME1 cannot even exist under those conditions. At best it's something that was brought into the Citadel after they captured it. Most likely it's just a Reaper induced hallucination like at the end of Arrival (i.e. I'm not even sure it was THE Intelligence). The fact that it looks like the kid from Earth which haunted Shep's dreams (and may have been a reaper induced hallucination itself) and that it's voice features that of Shepard's voice plus a cacophony of other whispers supports this. They literally took the codex definition of indoctrination and visiually presented it. Like I said, they are hitting people over the head with this stuff. Try again.

Synthesis only works with a very high EMS. Because it requires a terrible amount of energy to pull off. It's actually quite logical. I've pulled this from my HDD files. It's part of the addendum I was talking about earlier. The link in the thread no longer works for some reason. Skip it if you're not interest in how I know Synthesis requires a high amount of energy.

Citation needed on the Leviathans not creating the mass relays. And no, the Catalyst isn't the Citadel itself, it's just an AI residing inside it. I also think the only person being beaten on the head is you, and it's self-inflicted.

 

 

By claiming the Reapers had a stockpile of nanites ready to go, you are undermining your own position. Even from your flawed perspective the Reapers were not changed prior to the Crucible docking. Therefore, any reaper nanites they would have made were NOT for our benefit. They would have served the Reaper's Harvesting goals. Try Again.

The Catalyst tried the non-Reaper Synthesis solution before, but it apparently couldn't be forced.

 

 

It does not matter what wording the Leviathans used. They used catalyst as noun, not a title (not really sure about even that). The Leviathans simply called it "The Intelligence". In any regard, the Protheans use of the codename Catalyst to hide the identity of the Citadel. The Catalyst is the Citadel. Not some Reaper AI. No one even knew about the Kid. If they did you would be stating that the protheans plan was to fight their way through the Reapers, dock it with the Citadel and then hope the Reaper Kid capitulated? That's your idea? You can't pull the Crucible changed them nonsense because you just stated it could be changed and still keep trying to kill everyone. So any idea that it would shackle the AI has already been refuted by you yourself (not to mention the game itself via Refuse). You really are scrapping the bottom of the barrel trying to explain away the FACTS that prove your are wrong. Try again.

Citation needed on the Protheans actually naming it, as opposed to using the name from a prior cycle.

[Hadeedak]

Okay, so. Bioware breaks the fourth wall to say that Shepard stops the Reapers. No matter which choice you take. All of the three are valid and have pros and cons one can envision, as well as internal variables (except for Synthesis). And that's what I actually like about the endings quite a lot.

 

It's also why we're not importing ME3 into Andromeda and you said goodbye to your squaddies repeatedly.

[AngryFrozenWater]

...

 

Citation needed on the Leviathans not creating the mass relays.

 

...

Shepard: But what's the point of all these harvests?

Leviathan: The Intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled. It directed the reapers to create the mass relays - to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency. The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool.

Shepard: Will it ever end?

Leviathan: Unknown. Until the Intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue.

[Spectr61]

Maybe we will find "the intelligence" in Andromeda.

[ModernAcademic]

The problem of ME3 is that none of the endings are perfect, in the sense that they can't accomplish the desired goal: to bring an end to the Reper threat without having dire consequences for organic life.

 

Destroy simply ends the Reapers for good, but forces civilisations that depend heavily on synthetics to struggle without technology. It also destroys the one thing they've grown dependent on: the mass relays. Imagine human colonists never again being able to visit Earth. 

 

Control preserves synthetics, but turns Shepard into something close to the Catalyst. Shepard loses all emotional connection to organic life. In essence, they become an Intelligence in itself. Hence there's a looming feeeling of dread that one day, after many centuries of observation of life's evolution in the Milky Way, Shepard will make a bleak decision based purely in his "scientific deductions" about the nature of life and their relationship with synthetics, just as the Catalyst did, and probably use the Reapers as a force of coercion and even destruction.

 

Synthesis supposedly brings a definitive end to the conflict between AIs and organics. AIs will benefit from the organics' emotional intelligence, but the DNA modification is so extensive it has an unpredictable effect on organic life. I mean, Shepard is literally rewriting the matrix of life without truly understanding how it will affect organics. They hang on the Intelligence' words. We remain oblivious to whether we've screwed things over for organics forever. It's a radical change that isn't in any manner explained in the game. And something about turning every organic into a being that's half synthetic, with glowing green eyes just doesn't strike as right to me...

 

In the end, it's a matter of choosing the less worse solution. None of them will bring you the sense of fulfillment you yearn for.

[Spectr61]

The problem of ME3 is that none of the endings are perfect, in the sense that they can't accomplish the desired goal: to bring an end to the Reper threat without having dire consequences for organic life.
 
Destroy simply ends the Reapers for good, but forces civilisations that depend heavily on synthetics to struggle without technology. It also destroys the one thing they've grown dependent on: the mass relays. Imagine human colonists never again being able to visit Earth. 
 
Control preserves synthetics, but turns Shepard into something close to the Catalyst. Shepard loses all emotional connection to organic life. In essence, they become an Intelligence in itself. Hence there's a looming feeeling of dread that one day, after many centuries of observation of life's evolution in the Milky Way, Shepard will make a bleak decision based purely in his "scientific deductions" about the nature of life and their relationship with synthetics, just as the Catalyst did, and probably use the Reapers as a force of coercion and even destruction.
 
Synthesis supposedly brings a definitive end to the conflict between AIs and organics. AIs will benefit from the organics' emotional intelligence, but the DNA modification is so extensive it has an unpredictable effect on organic life. I mean, Shepard is literally rewriting the matrix of life without truly understanding how it will affect organics. They hang on the Intelligence' words. We remain oblivious to whether we've screwed things over for organics forever. It's a radical change that isn't in any manner explained in the game. And something about turning every organic into a being that's half synthetic, with glowing green eyes just doesn't strike as right to me...
 
In the end, it's a matter of choosing the less worse solution. None of them will bring you the sense of fulfillment you yearn for.

None of these. Instead,

Refuse.

Our cycle ends, but the next cycle gets Liara's Beacons to finally beat the Reaper's.

[Hammerstorm]

Maybe we will find "the intelligence" in Andromeda.

 

Well, apparently there is not much of it in the MW if we have to go to a new galaxy to find it. 

[straykat]

The problem of ME3 is that none of the endings are perfect, in the sense that they can't accomplish the desired goal: to bring an end to the Reper threat without having dire consequences for organic life.

 

Destroy simply ends the Reapers for good, but forces civilisations that depend heavily on synthetics to struggle without technology. It also destroys the one thing they've grown dependent on: the mass relays. Imagine human colonists never again being able to visit Earth. 

 

Control preserves synthetics, but turns Shepard into something close to the Catalyst. Shepard loses all emotional connection to organic life. In essence, they become an Intelligence in itself. Hence there's a looming feeeling of dread that one day, after many centuries of observation of life's evolution in the Milky Way, Shepard will make a bleak decision based purely in his "scientific deductions" about the nature of life and their relationship with synthetics, just as the Catalyst did, and probably use the Reapers as a force of coercion and even destruction.

 

Synthesis supposedly brings a definitive end to the conflict between AIs and organics. AIs will benefit from the organics' emotional intelligence, but the DNA modification is so extensive it has an unpredictable effect on organic life. I mean, Shepard is literally rewriting the matrix of life without truly understanding how it will affect organics. They hang on the Intelligence' words. We remain oblivious to whether we've screwed things over for organics forever. It's a radical change that isn't in any manner explained in the game. And something about turning every organic into a being that's half synthetic, with glowing green eyes just doesn't strike as right to me...

 

In the end, it's a matter of choosing the less worse solution. None of them will bring you the sense of fulfillment you yearn for.

 

Mass Relays weren't theirs to begin with. It's a good thing if they figure it out themselves. This whole setting treats people like they're nothing better than scavengers and bums. And now addicts, due to it. Destroy is just forced withdrawal. They'll be OK eventually.

 

I think this alone made Star Trek still the better sci-fi.. it always espoused the opposite message and had an inherent faith in people's creativity and evolution (and letting that thrive on it's own time, due to the Prime Directive). This series seems to want people to fear it.

 

As for Synthetics, they can be built again. And they'd be better off in this new context. The worst thing that ever happened to synthetics is the Reapers. Not people.

[Spectr61]

Mass Relays weren't theirs to begin with. It's a good thing if they figure it out themselves. This whole setting treats people like they're nothing better than scavengers and bums. And now addicts, due to it. Destroy is just forced withdrawal. They'll be OK eventually.


As for Synthetics, they can be built again. And they'd be better off in this new context. The worst thing that ever happened to synthetics is the Reapers. Not people.

Well put.

[straykat]

Well put.

 

Thanks.. I ninja'ed a bit and added something about Trek.

[themikefest]

Destroy:
Low EMS: 0 - 1749
Mid EMS 1750 - 2649
High EMS: 2650 and up

Control
Low EMS: 0 - 2349
High EMS: 2350 and up
(There is no separate Mid EMS Control outcome)

Synthesis:
High EMS - 2800 EMS and up

Those are the numbers before the extended cut?

 

Here's the numbers after the extended cut

 

destroy

0 - 1749 - Earth is scorched. Door to the Normandy doesn't open suggestion all onboard are dead

1750 - 1999 - Earth is ok. buildings are seen reduced to rubble. the difference is the time it takes to rebuild

2000 - 2599 Earth is ok. scene is the same as if ems is higher except the relays explode. the Normandy is stuck on the unknown planet

2600 and above. everything is ok. only the rings on the relays are damaged even though the relay that is seen in the epilogue is severely damaged and the Normandy flies off the unknown planet

3100 - breath scene

 

control

same as above except the door opens on the Nomandy even when ems is below 1750 and Earth isn't scorched

 

synthesis

available if ems is 2700 and above
 

With an EMS of 3100 and up Shepard can survive the Destroy ending assuming The Illusive Man did not execute Anderson. If Anderson was executed I believe the requirement is 4000 EMs and up.

3100 applied to the extended cut. 4000 was needed before the extended cut with Anderson not being shot by TIM. If TIM shoots Anderson, 5000 was required for the breath scene.

With the extended cut, 2900 is needed to get the breath scene, if Anderson is not shot. He adds 200 war assets  If he's shot, 3200 is needed for the breath scene since he takes away 100 war assets

[In Exile]

If that were the case, we wouldn't have politics, religion ... pretty much anything, really.

 

This seems like an airtight argument, based on FACTS. I'm persuaded. 

[The Twilight God]

Well, the Catalyst will keep doing what it's doing if Shepard refuses to do anything. It appears to be judging the cycle as a whole by Shepard's actions.

In other words you can't come up with any way to bs your way around this one, huh?
 

Citation needed on the Leviathans not creating the mass relays.

Watch the Leviathan conversation on YouTube. There is no excuse for you to be asking me for anything. You are constantly displaying your ignorance of the subject matter. You should already know this stuff if you're going to try and argue a case. If you don't even have a working knowledge of the material how do you even get off making statements about anything? You're like a 16 year grocery store bagger who has never even opened a relevant textbook trying to argue astrophysics with Stephen Hawking. You do know I'm the Mass Effect Loremaster Supreme™, don't you?

Leviathan: The Intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled.
Leviathan: It directed the Reapers to create the mass relays - to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency.
Leviathan: The Galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool.

Heck, Sovereign says the Reapers built the relays when you speak to it on Virmire. Where were you? This has been known well before the ME3 came out. It was a pretty big deal in ME1 and a crucial part of the story. Have you even played Mass Effect?
 

And no, the Catalyst isn't the Citadel itself, it's just an AI residing inside it.

Once again. Another display of blatant unapologetic ignorance on your part. Let's go to Cronos Station, after speaking with TIM.

Shepard: Yes. I need to know what the Catalyst is!
Prothean VI: Security protocols have been overridden. I will comply.
Prothean VI: The Catalyst enhances dark energy transmissions and coordinate the entire mass relay network. In your cycle, it's known as the Citadel.
Shepard: What?
Prothean VI: The Catalyst is the Citadel.
[...]
Shepard: But... the Citadel was built by the Reapers. (included to compliment the Leviathan comments)

The VI goes on to state that the Crucible did not always utilize the Citadel, but at some point in time it was because it wasn't powerful enough on its own. Please, go watch the entire conversation for yourself and get enlightened.
 

The Catalyst tried the non-Reaper Synthesis solution before, but it apparently couldn't be forced.

What would you call Synthesis? I must have missed the part where everyone in the galaxy took a vote on it. Do you even think before you type your drivel? Try again.
 

Citation needed on the Protheans actually naming it, as opposed to using the name from a prior cycle.

*sigh* When you watch the conversation the VI tells you exactly why they codenamed it Catalyst. They did not name it Catalyst. It's the Citadel. The codename is used so that the Reapers wouldn't know what they were talking about. Let's not forget that the Citadel is a "Reaper incubator" to boot. But keep on ignorantly claiming the Leviathans made it.