As dumb as I think the whole idea behind the ending is, they should've done more than just have Shepard stand around and fade to black, like show the Allied fleets and ground troops being wiped out by the Reaper forces.
I would be curious if Shepard dies in that area or if a shuttle comes by to pick him/her up. If Shepard is picked up, I would like to hear the explanation why he/she didn't choose an ending.
Well, as long as humans are still kicking, and asari.Precisely. This is why I never choose Destroy. The level of destruction is unmeasurable. It could literally wipe out entire civilisations over time and lead to the extinction of certain species.
After all the effort I went to turn the geth into a fully-evolved AI species, choosing Destroy means they'll be forever extinguished right after the war. They won't even have the chance to enjoy the gift that resulted from Legion's sacrifice. And it was a 300 year old quest to achieve their desire.
Destroy is just not worth it.
but humans are no longer 100% human if u chose Syn ending (other races in the galaxy to) so they have to mention it in dialogue + its nice if it gives some special perks or skills to, all are partly machine, so discarding endings totally makes no sense
It would depend when they left this galaxy. Do we know when they took off for Andromeda?
Frankly, I can't believe would be so careless and have then leave after the war?
Actually, you do. The devs confirm - and troll - that the next cycle uses the Crucible.
You were saying the Kid said all synthetics would be destroyed, which is in the original endings. This was retconned in the EC.
Of course. The Bad Writing Theory doesn't need evidence and doesn't need explanation. It just is. Just like a 6000 year old Earth that defies our understanding of the universe. The internal narrative of the universe, in this case the game, is thrown out the window. Which is why there is no reason for me to discuss this further with you.
I do not hate Christianity. I'm just using a the beliefs of certain segments of the Christian population to explain things. And I don't see how I've shown animosity toward you by simply not drinking your Kool-Aid. I disagree with you. That's it. Get over it.
Yes, but I don't know why you corrected me using the EC and then said we were focusing on the original ending.
The bad writing is the evidence of so called "bad writing theory." The only reason you call it that is to try and put it on the same level as your imaginings, which is preposterous.
It's not that you've been "not drinking my kool-aid" which is funny coming from a guy who gets his panties in a wad when someone disagrees with him. It's the attitude. And again, for no reason you attempt to make an absurd comparison which is really just to take a pot shot at some other people you disagree with. It's utterly pointless and has no relevance to our discussion.
I did not fail. I made an airtight case for why it's absurd for it to be able to target Geth without indiscriminately destroying all technology.
It's not absurd. This series had long since abandoned it's focus on detail and lore. There is no reason the Crucible can't target Geth or AI or whatever else the writer wants it to because it's pure author magic. You have no idea what it does or how it works and how things work in the real world have no bearing on it. That's often tremendously unsatisfying, but that's what we were handed.
I'm not sure what words to use. By now you should understand my meaning.
Yes, technically both could be considered bad writing. But there are different types of bad writing. One is a bad story, even though it is narratively consistent (for the most part). The other is a sloppy inconsistent mess that makes no sense and is in direct conflict with itself.
To put it another way one is a ugly house, that is otherwise up to building code. Just so ugly no one wants to buy it.
The other is a random assortment of building materials that isn't up to code. The windows are on the floors. The doors are positioned sideways and on the upper part of the walls. There is no roof. The house is made on untreated wood. And there is no foundation.
It's arguable which ME2 and ME3 as a whole are, but the ME3 ending is most certainly the latter.
The Geth are not in the EC slides, so it's easy to assume they're gone.
Either way, I don't care to read all of that. I killed Legion anyways. I don't see the point in killing the Geth if you didn't already kill them on Rannoch. You're giving the nod for Reaper code use there as it is... you have no good reason to try anything other than Control or Synthesis after that. It's essentially the same choice.
It makes sense if you saved the Geth in the first place. They kind of coincide with Control or Synthesis, I think.
I think Destroy is for people who didn't care.. it's Reaper code.. they put their foot down on that subject. As they would at the very end.
What doesn't make sense to me is people who saved the Geth and yet still want to get rid of the Reapers. Like Iakus above.
I don't understand this position. The two choices are in entirely different contexts and made for different reasons. When allowing Legion to upload the code, you're allowing them to improve themselves and defend themselves against Quarian aggression. Whether or not you believe they are life as worthwhile as Organics, you're also saving them so they can help fight the Reapers. Destroy is choosing to Destroy the Reapers, which was the goal all along. The Geth dying is a consequence and collateral damage, not the objective.
We are not a dictator you dumb ****. We are basically the peacekeeper of the galaxy. But someone who like to commit genocide over the great good wouldn't understand. It's ironic but the Illusive man was right.
The problem is that Shepard just told TIM that he was wrong and TIM died for that view. Everything in the story says he's wrong. I recommend this article. It's not on Mass Effect but the point still applies. This is the second page of the article, but contains the relevant portion.
http://www.escapistm...en-Fanfiction.2
Or, from the excellent Mass Effect Retrospective:
http://www.shamusyou...edtale/?p=28485
Why do people give a rat's ass about control being a dictatorship? If there is anything the ME series shows it is that democracy is for idiots.
The right of self-determination was a core theme of the series.
TL:DR It's not possible and does not happen in the game. At least not in any meaningful way.
Synthesis isn't energy so much as it's a cloud of reaper nanites riding on an energy wave. Even then it's not possible and does not happen in-game in accordance with what the Kid claimed.
Nanites is a reasonable explanation, but is that actually stated anywhere? Still, it does happen as the kid claims because the writer says so. What you think of the real world feasibility is irrelevant. The Crucible runs on pure author magic.
Well, I feel destroy leaves the galaxy in ruins. All the major population hubs are rekt. The relay network is rekt. So there is no infrastructure, people can't practically travel between stars. Civilization has pretty much been knocked back to a "stone age". Billions, if not trillions will die of injury, disease, starvation, etc.
I guess it beats the alternatives: Being Harvested by Shreaperd or getting the Paul Grayson treatment.
Mass Relays weren't theirs to begin with. It's a good thing if they figure it out themselves. This whole setting treats people like they're nothing better than scavengers and bums. And now addicts, due to it. Destroy is just forced withdrawal. They'll be OK eventually.
I think this alone made Star Trek still the better sci-fi.. it always espoused the opposite message and had an inherent faith in people's creativity and evolution (and letting that thrive on it's own time, due to the Prime Directive). This series seems to want people to fear it.
As for Synthetics, they can be built again. And they'd be better off in this new context. The worst thing that ever happened to synthetics is the Reapers. Not people.
I don't understand this position. The two choices are in entirely different contexts and made for different reasons. When allowing Legion to upload the code, you're allowing them to improve themselves and defend themselves against Quarian aggression. Whether or not you believe they are life as worthwhile as Organics, you're also saving them so they can help fight the Reapers. Destroy is choosing to Destroy the Reapers, which was the goal all along. The Geth dying is a consequence and collateral damage, not the objective.
Because the whole point why I recruited Legion in the first place is because he was Geth...and not a Heretic from ME1. They sought to self-define themselves. I would give them that chance any way I could. "The Geth build their own future". The Heretics didn't want to build their own future. They wanted a shortcut, via the Reapers. This might've been "Life", but it's unsettling. It skips evolution, it's not unique, it's not individual. It's also the same reason why I oppose TIM. He's a punk who looks for shortcuts.... and then thinks that will lead to Human Strength. He's wrong... in the longrun, he's wrong. I think strength will come in time.. and it has to be our own brand of strength. The male Shaman had a similar statement about the Krogan too.
Unfortunately, the Geth weren't allowed to do this with the Quarians pushing their backs against the wall. I take no blame for that though. That's the Quarians' fault. I do blame Legion for giving in though. In the end, Legion decided to be just like the Heretics and go to the Reapers.
Perhaps they didn't think they had a choice. I think they did... they should've went out like badasses and nuked themselves. lol. And before that sounds crass or unreasonable, this is what Organics did when the Reapers invaded their worlds. They took themselves out --- because they had dignity and a sense of self that they wouldn't let anyone take away. This is the truest definition of life and self-definition. Even EDI admired this. This was her big "Aha" moment when she would discuss Reapers with Shepard. She decided she would rather die than serve too.
But anyways... I'm kind of jumping all over the place. Legion used Reaper code. I wish to wipe it out. Start from scratch. I have nothing against giving future AI a chance, but not like that.
Because the whole point why I recruited Legion in the first place is because he was Geth...and not a Heretic from ME1. They sought to self-define themselves. I would give them that chance any way I could. "The Geth build their own future". The Heretics didn't want to build their own future. They wanted a shortcut, via the Reapers. This might've been "Life", but it's unsettling. It skips evolution, it's not unique, it's not individual. It's also the same reason why I oppose TIM. He's a punk who looks for shortcuts.... and then thinks that will lead to Human Strength. He's wrong... in the longrun, he's wrong. I think strength will come in time.. and it has to be our brand of strength.
Unfortunately, the Geth weren't allowed to do this with the Quarians pushing their backs against the wall. I take no blame for that though. That's the Quarian's fault. I do blame Legion for giving in though. In the end, Legion decided to be just like the Heretics and go to the Reapers.
Perhaps they didn't think they had a choice. I think they did... they should've went out like badasses and nuked themselves. lol. And before that sounds crass or unreasonable, this is what Organics did when the Reapers invaded their worlds. They took themselves out --- because they had dignity and sense of self that wouldn't let anyone take away. This is the truest definition of life and self-definition. Even EDI admired this. This was her big "Aha" moment when she would discuss Reapers with Shepard. She decided she would rather die than serve too.
But anyways... I'm kind of jumping all over the place. Legion used Reaper code. I wish to wipe it out. Start from scratch. I have nothing against giving future AI a chance, but not like that.
The bold is exactly right and I really hate it. I like Legion and did not like this shift. I like that Shepard can disagree with Legion that the upgraded version is "indicative of life" but also argue for them to not be destroyed. But one can disagree with Legion's decision but still allow it, keeping in mind the theme of self determination, and therefore allow the upload. But letting them die in order to kill the Reapers is something else entirely.
I'll say this.. they're the biggest losers of the story. I mean that in a tragic way. Not to denigrate them. Even if you upload and save them, they aren't the geth anymore either. You lose a unique platform either way.
It's not that I wanted them gone though. Legion was my favorite ME2 character, besides Grunt and Jack.
It's more ironic that I often played with Legion and Jack at the end of the suicide mission. He always saved my ass at the shuttle jump 
I'll say this.. they're the biggest losers of the story. I mean that in a tragic way. Not to denigrate them. Even if you upload and save them, they aren't the geth anymore either. You lose a unique platform either way.
It's not that I wanted them gone though. Legion was my favorite ME2 character, besides Grunt and Jack.
It's more ironic that I often played with Legion and Jack at the end of the suicide mission. He always saved my ass at the shuttle jump
And this is a smaller scale version of one of the problems with Synthesis. Despite everything Legion says in ME2 about refusing the Old Machines' gifts and the Geth finding their own path, Legion accepts the Reaper code and wants to give it to the rest of the Geth. Similarly, despite the story telling us that Synthetics are just as valuable as Organics and differences are not only ok but valuable, Synthesis celebrates "blurring the lines" between the two.
Wait, so we're basically in agreement? I shouldn't have been so longwinded above then. I thought I had to defend my pov when you said "I don't understand this position".
It makes sense if you saved the Geth in the first place. They kind of coincide with Control or Synthesis, I think.
I think Destroy is for people who didn't care.. it's Reaper code.. they put their foot down on that subject. As they would at the very end.
What doesn't make sense to me is people who saved the Geth and yet still want to get rid of the Reapers. Like Iakus above.
How doesn't that make sense? It's not like the Geth were coming out of dark space every 50K years wiping out sentients. When I look around and see what the Reapers are doing to Earth, and the fleets I've amassed, choosing Destroy isn't any different than Legion choosing to sacrifice himself for the Geth. In fact, I'd say that, if given the choice, the Geth would choose to Destroy the Reapers too, even with all the facts, based on their actions in the initial war with the Quarians, and on Legion's actions.
It's like being a cokehead.. but shooting the coke dealer.
I mean, to each their own, but I think I took a consistent path. I'm not a cokehead... and I shot the coke dealer too.
Err... or something.
Wait, so we're basically in agreement? I shouldn't have been so longwinded above then. I thought I had to defend my pov when you said "I don't understand this position".
We're in agreement about the Geth, but I disagreed that there was no reason to choose Destroy if you spared the Geth because the context and focus of the two choices are different.
We're in agreement about the Geth, but I disagreed that there was no reason to choose Destroy if you spared the Geth because the context and focus of the two choices are different.
Ah, OK...
We'll see my post above. I guess I'm taking a principled position here about the Reapers. Not necessarily a situational one...for lack of a better word atm.
And Legion in particular disappointed me because a betrayal of his own principles. There's no wiggle room with the Reapers. "We fight or we die".
Yes. They are destroyed by choosing refusal, via Liara's Beacon in the next cycle. And we don't have to submit to the Starbrat to do so.
If Shepard utilizes the Crucible to destroy the Reapers the collateral damage is as follows:
1. The Geth perish (maybe) - There is no hard evidence to support this claim, but people seem determined to believe it. So for the sake of argument let's assume for some magically reason they all die.
If Shepard chooses "freedom" (i.e. Refuse) the devastation is as follows:
1. The Geth perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
2. Humanity perishes or is enslaved in reaper form.
3. The Asari perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
4. The Turians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
5. The Salarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
6. The Quarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
7. The Krogan perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
8. The Volus perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
9. The Elcor perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
10. The Hanar perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
11. The Drell perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
12. The Batarians perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
13. The Rachni perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
14. The Vorcha perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
15. The Raloi perish or are enslaved in reaper form.
16. Not to mention any other space-faring species who aren't mentioned in game.
So everyone - trillions of lives - must end brutally because Shepard is too weak to do what must be done. All must suffer so that one individual out of trilions can sit back and watch without a guilty conscious. How utterly selfish, cowardly and weak-minded. And oh so delusional. Choosing to refuse the Crucible makes Shepard an accomplice to the murder of everyone; a traitor to the galaxy.
"You're weak and you're selfish. Because of you, humanity will suffer."
Refuse is the ultimate betrayal. Unlike Control and Synthesis where Shepard is made susceptible to reaper influence and is deceived into fulfilling their will. Shepard is so broken that he knowingly condemns his allies to destruction and the Reapers have him convinced it is his idea. Shepard betrays his lover, his friends, his crew, humanity and every species he rallied together to confront the Reapers at Earth. All these beings came together, followed him into hell and he hung them all out to dry. Every sacrifice made, every life given to provide a future for their children - all of it - was rendered null and void by Shepard's act of betrayal. He effectively gathers all the galaxy's forces into one spot, tactlessly throws them against the Reapers in an unwinnable frontal assault and then hangs them out to dry. The Crucible is thus a trap.
Shepard says to the Illusive Man on Thessia, "You're indoctrinated! You're doing just what they want."
The Illusive Man replies, "I could say the same of you, wasting time on a war that can't be won."
That captures the very essence of Refuse.
It's equivalent to exactly what the Reapers wanted: For the Crucible to never have docked in the first place. In choosing Refuse the player confers that Shepard was undisputeably indoctrinated: Fact.
Ah, OK...
We'll see my post above. I guess I'm taking a principled position here about the Reapers. Not necessarily a situational one...for lack of a better word atm.
And Legion in particular disappointed me because a betrayal of his own principles. There's no wiggle room with the Reapers. "We fight or we die".
I suppose it could be the case for Control, using the weapons of the enemy against him, but every other example shows this to be a terrible idea.
No offense. Honest. But you'd have to be a complete mental nutcase to genuinely believe Refuse is the best out of the 4 endings.
It is the most thematically consistent ending, even if it is bad for other reasons.
But Shepard turns out to not even be that synthetic (as if playing ME2 wasn't enough indication. Lazarus was a genetic project. At best, the synthetics involved were non-digital related. Things like sinew and tissue upgrades). It's just a ruse to create self-doubt.
It's kind of extension of just about everything attacking Shepard's confidence. The whole game attempts it in one way or another.
Precisely. This is why I never choose Destroy. The level of destruction is unmeasurable. It could literally wipe out entire civilisations over time and lead to the extinction of certain species.
After all the effort I went to turn the geth into a fully-evolved AI species, choosing Destroy means they'll be forever extinguished right after the war. They won't even have the chance to enjoy the gift that resulted from Legion's sacrifice. And it was a 300 year old quest to achieve their desire.
Destroy is just not worth it.
Now you're just in denial. Jacobs says Shepard has just meat and tubes and the Cerberus files on Cronos seems to be the first time he is forced to accept that he straight up died (Look them over yourself - ). So this idea that Cerberus wanted to weaken his confidence in his own existence was shaken is patently false. They definitely did not want that because they wanted him at 100% to fight the Collectors. He was suffering indoctrination effects in his dreams, but that's another issue. His spine was severed at the neck (see ME2 Lazarus intro) and two other locations. Completely severed. Without those synthetics to relay brain signals to his heart and lungs he dies. Period. Shepard has superhuman strength (as seen in him easily moving a steel support beam out of the way with one hand at the end of ME2) and visible synthetics all over his body (Renegade anyone?).
Right on other than the dreams. There were no Indoctrination effects there. The whispers are lines from dead friends, not unintelligible or instructions to do something. The oily shadows comment from the Rachni Queen is the most misapplied, as that had to do with her lack of memory of the war. Indoctrination was referred to as a "sour yellow note."
These thoughts from Shepard are a game too late and a wasted opportunity. And then Shepard just moves right on. I am glad you made the comment about his visible cybernetics though. People always forget that when claiming that Shepard's eyes show Indoctrination during Control.
Yes, but I don't know why you corrected me using the EC and then said we were focusing on the original ending.
It's not that you've been "not drinking my kool-aid" which is funny coming from a guy who gets his panties in a wad when someone disagrees with him. It's the attitude. And again, for no reason you attempt to make an absurd comparison which is really just to take a pot shot at some other people you disagree with. It's utterly pointless and has no relevance to our discussion.
I never said we are talking about the original endings.
Yes you did.
You're not making any sense. I ascribe to Deception Theory because of the facts. If I ignored the facts, Deception Theory wouldn't work. You have to understand that Deception Theory is based on the game as Bioware released it. It only pertains to the discussion of the default game.
Though maybe you meant without mods since they were also being discussed.
You and many others' sole basis for claiming the Geth die is the original endings. Even then it requires you to blindly accept whatever the Kid says which could be a straight up lie. You can't seem to let it go.
This is also false because we've referenced the EC slides as well as the dialogue. I also know what the kid says is true simply by being an intelligent consumer of the media. The Catalyst's only role is to frame the ending choices for the player. Regardless of what you want to say of the character, if it can even be called that, the mechanical purpose within the story tells us its words are true.
I have never been angry with you. You're projecting and making my point. By me simply not going along with what you think you state I'm angry at you. That me disproving your asserts constitutes getting my panties in a wad. Which is exactly what I was remarking about. You don't even know what by beliefs are. For all you know I'm a creationist myself. To simply state that a particular belief can't be proven via scientific method constitutes taking shots at it? That is a belief that people have. Is it unacceptable to even mention said beliefs? The mere discussion of it trash talk? That says more about your feelings toward those beliefs.
You haven't disproven anything I've said except for correcting me on one line of dialogue. You just rant and rave about how nobody else "gets it". And then you're trying to squirm out and project. Do I need to post the Tommy Boy clip again?
You simply ignored my points.
Destroy is not submitting to the Star Brat.
Let us put to rest any idea that Destroy compromises with the Reapers in any way.
1. The demise of the Reapers does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
2. The demise of the Intelligence does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
3. The end of the Cycle of Extinction does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
4. The freedom to self-determinate does not any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
5. The continued coexistence of synthetics and organics does not in any way, shape or form compromise with the Kid.
Destroy what you came to do. You already decided to Destroy the Reapers before the game even started. It's all Shepard talks about doing the entire game, shooting down TIM every time he mentions Control. Control or Synthesis (which Shepard shoots down in ME1) aren't even on the table prior to the last 7 minutes of the game. They're just thrown at you out of left field. Take the MEHEM. The Reapers are destroyed and there is no Star Brat at all. Are you saying you submit to the Star Brat in the MEHEM even though he does not exist in the MEHEM?
And in Refuse the next cycle - guess what? - DESTROYS THE REAPERS WITH THE CRUCIBLE!!! Do you even listen to yourself? So I guess they submit to the Star Brat too, right? Your entire position literal spits in the face of reason and basic sense. You're being very illogical in your stance. I think you just didn't like EDI dying and are emotionally ranting because none of the endings are good.
No offense. Honest. But you'd have to be a complete mental nutcase to genuinely believe Refuse is the best out of the 4 endings.
I agree with the last sentence - I am even going a step further: I think "refuse" was only put in as a slap in the face for fans who didn't like the Bratalyst and wanted to take their anger out on it (by shooting it), despite it (in theory!) being possible to win conventionally (without the Crucible) because we've done what no cycle before has ever done:
1. We stopped the Reapers from arriving early (thanks in large part to those Prothean scientists and their conduit!)
2. We managed to prevent the Reapers from shutting down the Relays (and basically compartmentalizing the galaxy and doing "divide and conquer" because no organized resistance (on a galactic-level) can be conducted without the Relays (travel without them is just too slow!))
3. We organized all the species (at best everybody works with Shepard, from the Council-Races to the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogan and even what's left of the Batarian Hegemony etc. etc. - not to mention all those Terminus mercenary forces Aria gives Shepard!) into a force to be reconned with (even more so if you saved the Council in ME1...)
4. We got insight into Reaper-Technology (Thannix-Cannon!)
So there we should easily have a chance - it's just the writers and their artsy ending who don't want us to have a chance!
@Topic: I am glad that they don't bother with the ME3-Endings (while I personally like Synthesis (because I love the idea of transcending the flesh and blood and becoming something more, something greater!) it's the diverging paths are too much and over all the endings aren't good (the Catalyst alone is fucked IMHO...I mean come on, that nightmare kid? WHY? HOW? Didn't know Reapers were telepathic, you know?)), but on the other hand a new ME3 would have been great, too (because it would show that they recognize that they've made a misstake...but in todays day and age admitting a misstake is a no-go it seems, it's always "cover your ass" - being honest doesn't get you very far anymore sadly!)...still, I kind of hope they return to form with ME:A (a game that's at least as good as ME1, DA:O and KOTOR would be NICE!)
It's not absurd. This series had long since abandoned it's focus on detail and lore. There is no reason the Crucible can't target Geth or AI or whatever else the writer wants it to because it's pure author magic. You have no idea what it does or how it works and how things work in the real world have no bearing on it. That's often tremendously unsatisfying, but that's what we were handed.
The problem is that Shepard just told TIM that he was wrong and TIM died for that view. Everything in the story says he's wrong.
Right on other than the dreams. There were no Indoctrination effects there. The whispers are lines from dead friends, not unintelligible or instructions to do something. The oily shadows comment from the Rachni Queen is the most misapplied, as that had to do with her lack of memory of the war. Indoctrination was referred to as a "sour yellow note."
From Control post...
Recall the noise Harbinger makes just before it fires the beam in Shepard's vicinity prior to entering the Citadel? That same noise is present in Shepard's dream sequences. As if the oily shadows, the kid (ghostly hallucination) and the cacophony of electronic reaper sounds weren't enough.
Sound file (skip to 1:52):
I am glad you made the comment about his visible cybernetics though. People always forget that when claiming that Shepard's eyes show Indoctrination during Control.
1. We stopped the Reapers from arriving early (thanks in large part to those Prothean scientists and their conduit!)
2. We managed to prevent the Reapers from shutting down the Relays (and basically compartmentalizing the galaxy and doing "divide and conquer" because no organized resistance (on a galactic-level) can be conducted without the Relays (travel without them is just too slow!))
3. We organized all the species (at best everybody works with Shepard, from the Council-Races to the Quarians, the Geth, the Krogan and even what's left of the Batarian Hegemony etc. etc. - not to mention all those Terminus mercenary forces Aria gives Shepard!) into a force to be reconned with (even more so if you saved the Council in ME1...)
4. We got insight into Reaper-Technology (Thannix-Cannon!)
So there we should easily have a chance - it's just the writers and their artsy ending who don't want us to have a chance!
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