1042 réponses à ce sujet

[The Twilight God]

So you've proved approximately nothing thus far apart from the Crucible having been initially designed to destroy the Reapers, with new functionalities having been unlocked when it joins with the Catalyst. That still doesn't mean it's a trap.

Haha. It's a countermeasure, not a trap. And yes, I proved it. Disagree? Then explain how I'm wrong.

Right. You can't. Because I'm 100% right with no possibility of error. There is nothing you can say to refute anything I've said and it's killing you isn't it?
 

Which... I addressed already. This isn't actually a reply to what I said.

Whatever rubbish you said was soundly curb stomped.

You said, "it stands to reason that the Protheans working on the Crucible uncovered the name "Catalyst" in a reference used by a past cycle (and only the Protheans working on the Crucible; Vigil knew nothing of it). So we still have nothing on what "Catalyst" was originally supposed to refer to as spoken by the people who coined the term."

There is nothing stating that past cycles called it the Citadel Catalyst. Not that what they call the Citadel is important anyway. They may have called it The Flower or the Space Egg. Who knows. What is important to note is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the THESSIA Prothean VI knew anything about any AI chilling in the Citadel. The conversation on Thessia (before Kai Leng showed up) proves that. Recall the part about the pattern repeating itself and saying it appears something other than just the Reapers is responsible for the Cycles? And then when it says it doesn't know what that something is? You fail again!

The video I posted and the timestamp I gave you explains that Catalyst is just a code name to cover the identity of the Citadel in the Crucible's usage. You are wrong. And you KNOW it. Period. End of discussion.
 

"Forced," in context, obviously isn't being used in an individualistic manner, but in relation to galactic society as a whole.

Yeah, I'm sure the entire galaxy were so welcoming of the green mist that violated their bodies without their consent and turned them into docile imbeciles.

I think it's time you crawl into some corner and die quietly. You're wounds are now fatal. This isn't even funny anymore. It's just sad watching you humiliate yourself at this point. This must be what it feels like to see one of those Donkey shows in Mexico.

https://youtu.be/MOQqckDUIiM?t=158

[goishen]

Ummm, this is all BSN nonsense. "LOL, you fell directly into my countermeasure!"

Just don't be surprised if he hits you back with LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT!

I mean. Good grief dude.

[Xilizhra]

Haha. It's a countermeasure, not a trap. And yes, I proved it. Disagree? Then explain how I'm wrong.

Right. You can't. Because I'm 100% right with no possibility of error. There is nothing you can say to refute anything I've said and it's killing you isn't it?

I already gave you an alternate explanation that you failed to address.

 

 

Whatever rubbish you said was soundly curb stomped.

You said, "it stands to reason that the Protheans working on the Crucible uncovered the name "Catalyst" in a reference used by a past cycle (and only the Protheans working on the Crucible; Vigil knew nothing of it). So we still have nothing on what "Catalyst" was originally supposed to refer to as spoken by the people who coined the term."

There is nothing stating that past cycles called it the Citadel Catalyst. Not that what they call the Citadel is important anyway. They may have called it The Flower or the Space Egg. Who knows. What is important to note is that there is no evidence whatsoever that the THESSIA Prothean VI knew anything about any AI chilling in the Citadel. The conversation on Thessia (before Kai Leng showed up) proves that. Recall the part about the pattern repeating itself and saying it appears something other than just the Reapers is responsible for the Cycles? And then when it says it doesn't know what that something is? You fail again!

The video I posted and the timestamp I gave you explains that Catalyst is just a code name to cover the identity of the Citadel in the Crucible's usage. You are wrong. And you KNOW it. Period. End of discussion.

So why did Vendetta say that the Catalyst was called the Citadel in the current cycle when the Protheans called it the Citadel as well? Also, Vendetta never says that "Catalyst" was a code name. And I never said that the Protheans knew the true nature of the Catalyst.

 

 

Yeah, I'm sure the entire galaxy were so welcoming of the green mist that violated their bodies without their consent and turned them into docile imbeciles.

I think it's time you crawl into some corner a die quietly. You're wounds are now fatal. This isn't even funny anymore. It's just sad watching you humiliate yourself at this point. This must be what it feels like to see one of those Donkey shows in Mexico.

https://youtu.be/MOQqckDUIiM?t=158

This is purely an argument from incredulity.

[The Twilight God]

I already gave you an alternate explanation that you failed to address.
 
 
So why did Vendetta say that the Catalyst was called the Citadel in the current cycle when the Protheans called it the Citadel as well? Also, Vendetta never says that "Catalyst" was a code name. And I never said that the Protheans knew the true nature of the Catalyst.
 
 
This is purely an argument from incredulity.

Yeah, yeah, I've address all your arguments and soundly debunked them all. That's why all you can do is sit here and lie that I didn't even though you and everyone else here can go back and read where I most definitely did. Sssh, just bleed out... go to the light.

Anyway, I'd like to apologize for my manners. I shouldn't have ridiculed you like that. It is conduct unbecoming of the Mass Effect Loremaster Supreme™.

[Xilizhra]

Yeah, yeah, I've address all your arguments and soundly debunked them all. That's why all you can do is sit here and lie that I didn't even though you and everyone else here can go back and read where I most definitely did. Sssh, just bleed out... go to the light.

Anyway, I'd like to apologize for my manners. I shouldn't have ridiculed you like that. It is conduct unbecoming of the Mass Effect Loremaster Supreme™.

I'll be sure to tell him or her that when I see them.

[xAmilli0n]

Right. You can't. Because I'm 100% right with no possibility of error. There is nothing you can say to refute anything I've said and it's killing you isn't it?

 

This is exactly how you make friends and influence people.  Keep at it.

 

[In Exile]

Let me just say, that while Patrick Weekes is one of the best writers currently working for Bioware and while I usually like his work, he horribly mishandled the geth in giving them a Pinocchio complex in ME3. I think giving them the Reaper code to turn them into "real boys" is a mistake, and I would not do it if it was possible to save them otherwise.

That said, these "new geth" still deserve a chance to live. They are still life, if a different form of life than they were before.

In addition, geth are not the only beings the Red wave kills. It destroys all synthetic life: including EDI, the shackled AI in the Attican Traverse, the virtual aliens, any AI out there in unexplored space that did nothing to harm us. It's genocide, even if people like to split hairs over whether it's real genocide.

He didn't mishandle them exactly. PW isn't a good science fiction writer, in the sense of actually dealing with speculative science fiction. He wrote Tali and so he was given the geth plot, but it was a poor fit. Still the nonsense about individual program sapience was nonsense carried forward from Chris L'Etoile. I have a hard time blaming PW for not making heads or tails of that noise.

Do we even know if he made the call about this "Reaper Code" nonsense? That to me sounds like a creative director decision - something Mac would have decided.

[In Exile]

If you did more than 1 playthrough of ME3, did you make peace each time? If so, great. If you didn't, does that mean you committed genocide when choosing one side over the other? How is it different with destroy?

When you have the option to actually get peace then it's really morally questionable to pick one side over the other when it's made pretty clear to you they're going to massacre the losers. But if you don't have that option, it's hard to say it's genocide - Shepard is caught between two viscious sides that want to exterminate one another. It's a bit too late to cry over the Quarians insanity and hard on for exterminating the geth at that point, and they were already gripping the idiot ball tighter than reasonably possible.

[themikefest]

When you have the option to actually get peace then it's really morally questionable to pick one side over the other when it's made pretty clear to you they're going to massacre the losers. But if you don't have that option, it's hard to say it's genocide - Shepard is caught between two viscious sides that want to exterminate one another. It's a bit too late to cry over the Quarians insanity and hard on for exterminating the geth at that point, and they were already gripping the idiot ball tighter than reasonably possible.

I have had the opportunity to make peace a few times, but never did. I have no idea what that code will do and I'm not going to take that chance. The geth get destroyed by the quarians. No genocide just like there's no genocide when choosing destroy.

[TevinterSupremacist]

On the one hand, ME 3 endings were insultingly bad, so ignoring them is good.

 

On the other, it doesn't force Bioware to learn how to efficiently work with actually branching and unique storylines and just encourages further laziness on their part.

 

 

Decisions, decisions. Looks like a lose/lose to me.

[goishen]

When you have the option to actually get peace then it's really morally questionable to pick one side over the other when it's made pretty clear to you they're going to massacre the losers. But if you don't have that option, it's hard to say it's genocide - Shepard is caught between two viscious sides that want to exterminate one another. It's a bit too late to cry over the Quarians insanity and hard on for exterminating the geth at that point, and they were already gripping the idiot ball tighter than reasonably possible.

 

 

Extremism is hard to defend, on either end of any spectrum. 

[robertthebard]

On the one hand, ME 3 endings were insultingly bad, so ignoring them is good.
 
On the other, it doesn't force Bioware to learn how to efficiently work with actually branching and unique storylines and just encourages further laziness on their part.
 
 
Decisions, decisions. Looks like a lose/lose to me.

Except that, in order to deal with these branching and unique story lines, they'd have to write four games, just for the base endings, and then branches off of those depending on the "quality" of each ending. It's far better to just have them depart before the endings take place, and start fresh from there in Andromeda.

[The Twilight God]

This is exactly how you make friends and influence people.  Keep at it.

I'm not looking to make friends. I'm just looking to leave a trail of bodies. Two confirmed kills so far.
 
Now watch this and be happy.

[Hadeedak]

I'm not looking to make friends. I'm just looking to leave a trail of bodies. Two confirmed kills so far.

 

You do realize that not everyone thinks you're winning, and declaring yourself the victor isn't helping?

 

That being said, this many years on, the chance of anyone changing their minds is slim. So I'll just reiterate that they're literal as far as I'm concerned, that the best thing about them is that they have distinctly different flavors (and are all four valid), and those flavors added to Shepard's habit of influencing galactic events is why we're off to Andromeda.

[AlanC9]

This is exactly how you make friends and influence people. Keep at it.

TTG does seem to be losing control of his tone lately. I don't think he's actually giving up on trying to convince people ..... that his fanfic is what Bio really wrote? Is that still the topic?

[The Twilight God]

You do realize that not everyone thinks you're winning, and declaring yourself the victor isn't helping?

Of course everyone agrees I've won. They don't have a choice. It's like saying not everyone agrees that liquid water is wet. Of course they do. If they claim otherwise they're lying. I'm victorious because I provide indisputable facts. It's not a matter of opinion. It is impossible to refute my arguments within the context of a consistent game world narrative. I think the issue is people can't seem to separate narrative consistency from a chaotic narrative. They act as if it's one or the other and the mere fact that I don't believe the writing is a complete and utter mess somehow negates their right to believe it is.

If you simply believe the writers are borderline retarded imbeciles then of course you can disagree based on that assumption, but that's not what I'm talking about. I'm only concerned with a narratively consistent Mass Effect. I'm not worried about changing anyone's mind. I'll say again, the Bad Writing theory is perfectly valid, but due to the fact that it throws narrative and writer competency out the window it can't be argued for or against and therefore has no place in debate. In this debate of a narratively consistent Mass Effect I have soundly won. If you disagree I'd ask you to refute my arguments, but you wouldn't be able too. You cannot refute facts. But if you believe the narrative is chaotic, why would you even bother arguing? It would be illogical.
 

That being said, this many years on, the chance of anyone changing their minds is slim. So I'll just reiterate that they're literal as far as I'm concerned, that the best thing about them is that they have distinctly different flavors (and are all four valid), and those flavors added to Shepard's habit of influencing galactic events is why we're off to Andromeda.

Depends on your definition of valid. I'd say they are all valid in that either of the four can occur. I think the ending of ME2 where Shepard dies is valid too. It simply ends the story there, but it's still valid. Within a narratively consistent game world Control, Synthesis and Refuse are indoctrinated endings. That being the case doe snot take away from the fact that they are still legitimate endings. But without the burdens of game world logic, sure, they can be whatever you like. Chalking it up to writer incompetency leaves it open to whatever your heart desires which is why it's such a compelling position for many.

[nfi42]

With the turn of events in this thread,  I'm losing all interest in  MEA.

[The Twilight God]

TTG does seem to be losing control of his tone lately. I don't think he's actually giving up on trying to convince people ..... that his fanfic is what Bio really wrote? Is that still the topic?

Your tone has remained consistently passive aggressive.

You are a shining example of exactly what I mentioned to Hadeedak. You're caught in this way of thinking in which the existence of one idea negates the existence of another. I respect your opinion that the writers are incompetent. I think it's a valid conclusion and I certainly don't go around indirectly sassing you by commenting about you to other forum members. If I have something to say to you I say it directly to you. It has become clear to me that people are arguing that the writers are incompetent when the discussion, as far as I'm concerned, is in the context that the writers aren't incompetent, but merely made some bad decisions. This inability for people to acknowledge that the two ideologies can mutually coexist is the problem.

I'm not arguing that you or any Bad Writing type are wrong. I'm arguing that within a narratively consist game written by people who don't deserve to be fired, that certain events must be a certain way because of X, Y and Z. If you don't believe in a narratively consistent Mass Effect then it doesn't infringe upon that belief. I've come to the conclusion that both Xilizhra and Natureguy85 are arguing for the very legitimacy of Bad Writing, to the exclusion of "good writing" (and I use that term very loosely); As if my viewpoint's mere existence someone negates theirs. My error is not realizing this sooner and theirs is trying to apply reason to something that doesn't work within the framework of reason. If it's a matter of terrible writing due to incompetent writers it isn't beholden to be reasonable. I.e. there should be no conflict.

Can't we all just get along?

[warlorejon]

I'm not looking to make friends. I'm just looking to leave a trail of bodies. Two confirmed kills so far.  Now watch this and be happy.https://www.youtube....h?v=E8I0DPEgomo

Best thing about this thread is that vid.

[The Twilight God]

Best thing about this thread is that vid.

[Selene Moonsong]

The ME Trilogy is what a player makes of it for the most part, depending on their own choices in the game and their opinions on the various endings, both before and after the Extended Cut DLC.

Personally, I have ignored the various written publications such as comics and books...

 

If it didn't happen that way in the game, then it didn't happen (IMHO). What happened in any publications outside of the game, whether or not they were written by BioWare writers or otherwise always contain literary (artistic) license that may not follow the original published game.

 

Descriptions in games are often presented in discovery through information found or is described by NPC's, giving the information received a singular description of the author of the text or the character speaking of the subject, and neither can be considered as cannon whether it is in the game or in a comic or other published work. Such information often expanded upon or sometimes retrofitted in sequels to support the latter works from a different perspective, and that makes both valid due to available knowledge gained. Unfortunately, such writing can make things seem awkward at times and seem inconsistent.

 

Spoiler

 

In ME3 there are four possible endings and each are valid, based on the player's perspective of their choices based on their game play.

 

Synthesis, the logical Outcome described by the Catalyst, was abhorrent to me as a diplomatic paragon human who believes that I (as Fem Shep) have no right to inflict such a genetic change upon all the species in the known galaxy. Especially because it was the most likely outcome suggested by the same computer who's logic first created the reaper cycles in the first place.

 

Control, while a tempting option for me, had me concerned in that I would be indoctrinated (as Fem Shep). As I have never played Shep (of either gender) as one who is the type to be controlling things on the level of a defacto dictator, much like like Aria would be if left to her own devices.

 

Destroy, while also a problem as it means the possible destruction of the Geth and AI's in the wake of destruction unleashed. But would allow organic life to continue to evolve normally for better or worse With at least the hope of organics remembering their mistakes. Even though we all know that mistakes are almost always doomed to be repeated, eventually.

 

Giving up is the final option presented, and is the one I found most unlike my Shep characters over all, none of which were the type to simply give up.

 

Diplomacy was the one possible ending that would have made the most sense to and the least destructive path of all, but never offered. Had it been an option, I believe it would have made the most logical sense, or at least reasonable 'happy ending' with a possible looming concern of what could happen in the future while leaving room for plenty of things happening in the distant furture. And, while Synthesis may seem like a diplomatic path, to me felt more like attempting to be a goddess of creation by using artificial evolution of all living things.

 

 

Even in the original endings, I consider myself as one of those who 'got it' without the need for the EC dlc. That DLC served only to verify my own conclusions of the game of the game I have enjoyed and have replayed enough to have spent nearly 1000 hours replaying the game with different outcomes based on different type of characters I played Shep as.

 

In the end, the game is what each player makes of it.

 

 

As to whether or not the ME 3 ending should matter, it has already been suggested that the launch appears to happen somewhere prior to the ME 3 ending.

[straykat]

 

Personally, I have ignored the various written publications such as comics and books...

 

 

 

I'd recommend those actually. They're not bad.. not all of them anyways.

[In Exile]

I have had the opportunity to make peace a few times, but never did. I have no idea what that code will do and I'm not going to take that chance. The geth get destroyed by the quarians. No genocide just like there's no genocide when choosing destroy.

It's absolutely genocide. You're intentionally choosing to exterminate the geth.

[straykat]

Yeah, dude... since when did it become Fact that AI is so much like life that we toss around words like genocide so easily.

 

Fun's fun, but geez. Hudson himself said he created the game merely to pose questions. Not to dispense answers. That's up to you. None of us know ****... because it doesn't exist yet.

[Sartoz]

On the one hand, ME 3 endings were insultingly bad, so ignoring them is good.

 

On the other, it doesn't force Bioware to learn how to efficiently work with actually branching and unique storylines and just encourages further laziness on their part.

 

 

Decisions, decisions. Looks like a lose/lose to me.

                                                                                   <<<<<<<<<<(0)>>>>>>>>>>

 

ME3's ending was salvageable (imo) by not killing Shep and by having the Catalyst admit its solution was wrong and have itself destroyed along with the Reapers.

 

Casey and Co. felt they tied themselves into a knot by :

1. Wanting to end the trilogy in a "final" manner

2. The need to provided ending "choices" for the players (because of marketing hype)

3, Players identified Mass Effect with Shep.

 

The good news is that Walters and Flynn are aware of the errors and are not about to repeat them with ME:A