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[TheJediSaint]

But how well would it have worked out in the end if the rest of the galaxy only tried to run? That leaves the reapers an ever-present threat.

 

You run really far away.

[dreamgazer]

Augh, why are smart people being silly now?

Tempted to not even respond after this post, since it starts off with an ad hominem.

While ME1 was certainly imperfect, nothing in it needs to be rewritten.

Sure, because it relies so heavily on necessary devices, like the data-drive DEM.

And yet for no story reason, the Reapers don't do it this time around. Why would the Reapers care if Organics commit Mass Suicide? Before Arrival, they couldn't have destroyed the Mass Relays. One survived a Supernova after all. As to your second point here, Vigil tells Shepard that "some worlds were utterly destroyed."

Yeah, you'll have to forgive me on that one. I was jumping ahead in the conversation to why the Reapers did things differently this time.

Divide and conquer minimizes Reaper casualties and conserves resources. Spreading out the way they do in ME3 preserves some stability in the Galaxy while they're aware that the Reapers have arrived, which suppresses mass suicides and attempts to destroy relays.

Because you say so. Ok then.

There could literally be a trillion Reapers, and any number will be as tough to defeat as Sovereign, or tougher. There's no way to properly prepare for them. So sure, because I say so.

Shepard was pointed to those places yes, though the narrative framed it as suggestions and we were choosing to look into them as empowered Specters. Sure, this is merely the illusion of choice and control, but that's better than going somewhere just because TIM or Hackett tell us to.

How is it any different? Anderson tells you to go there, and the game doesn't progress until you do.

C-3PO and R2-D2 just fell into Luke Skywalker's lap too. The point is that Shepard found things he, the Council, and the Alliance didn't know about or expect. And while those things were tied to Saren, they had value in their own right. There is none of that with the Crucible. It's not even that you get the first clue or map fragment to find the Crucible. You're just handed it for other people to build, told you need a hidden part and then you do nothing to find it until later when another character again tells you exactly where to go to get it.Boring!

I didn't find it boring. You had to broker piece between species to assemble the Crucible.

No, it wasn't that deep but it certainly tried to be. Otherwise we wouldn't need that massive exposition dump.

Exposition dumps equal being deep and profound? Nope, they're just exposition dumps.

It was never trying to be that deep. You should stop trying to force it into that corner just to attack it. It's essentially a straw man.

"Organic Synthetic balance" wasn't a major issue of the series outside of the Reapers themselves.

And the geth.

If the entire plot were about building the +1 sword or attaining a 16 wisdom then they should detail those things.

The entire plot isn't about EMS, though.

I don't know. They made several. My point was that it doesn't matter where your points went. There's no difference if you have a high value of space ships vs a high value of ground troops for the same total, despite those things having different roles. Some differentiation would have been cool. It's still fine if the end result is the same. Having only 2 of 3 Normandy upgrades still ends up with only one crew member dead on the approach to the Collector base, but the game differentiates the three possibilities. This is mainly about presentation.

And no narrative difference whatsoever.

Does this change their plans or how they view the Reapers in any way? If not, it has no value to the story. The Catalyst has no value to the story.

Yes. The Catalyst adds value to the story by addressing the bait than Drew Karpyshyn dangled with Sovereign's speech, and by giving Shepard perspective and context.

[dreamgazer]

That was before we found out that their technology is actually Reaper technology. Having the Galaxy continue to not care was a writing error, I think.

Negative. The illusion was preserved.
 

Since when is "this has never worked" evidence to put your trust in something?

More the fact that countless civilizations have poured their knowledge into crafting the Crucible. Why would countless cycles design a device that was unsafe or not actually designed to destroy the Reapers?

[Iakus]

And the geth

 

 

The geth being synthetic was incidental to their role inthe story.  They could have been any race: krogan, asari, even human and it would hav emade little difference

 

 

Yes. The Catalyst adds value to the story by addressing the bait than Drew Karpyshyn dangled with Sovereign's speech,

The Catalyst contradicted pretty much everything dangled from Sovereign's speech.

[Iakus]

More the fact that countless civilizations have poured their knowledge into crafting the Crucible. Why would countless cycles design a device that was unsafe or not actually designed to destroy the Reapers?

Civilizations have poured resources into lots of things that later turned out to be a bad idea.

[TheJediSaint]

Civilizations have poured resources into lots of things that later turned out to be a bad idea.

Great Wall of China, for example.

[themikefest]

I didn't find it boring. You had to broker piece between species to assemble the Crucible.

I never had to broker peace to build the crucible
 

The entire plot isn't about EMS, though.

It does determine the ending that Shepard can choose.

[dreamgazer]

No it isn't. That doesn't solve a plot obstacle that was known before talking to Vigil. Both the problem and the solution are presented at the same time.

Actually, it does. Saren's entire objective is to usher in the arrival of the Reapers, and the Conduit and Citadel are the answer. Beforehand, this was an unsolvable problem, elucidated by Vigil's info-dump. With the data drive, which was entirely unforeshadowed, the unsolvable problem is solved.

Definitely the closest thing in the trilogy.
 

Yeah, insert plug A into slot B.

If that were the case, they wouldn't need top scientists to just build it. They did. They need scientists to solve logistical and computational problems. It ain't "Insert Plug A Into Slot B". That's like saying you can give this to ME2's Gardner and be totally fine:


 
 

There are imperfections to be sure, but nothing on the level of later errors. This vague, blanket statement is not a good retort.

Guess it depends on how accommodating you are to magic brain filters and prototype relays that violate the lore, both of which are of the utmost importance to the plot in ME1.

[dreamgazer]

I never had to broker peace to build the crucible

You had to make the decision not to, which has repercussions. The circumstances were there. If you didn't broker peace, you went in the other direction.
 

It does determine the ending that Shepard can choose.

True, but point stands.

[themikefest]

You had to make the decision not to, which has repercussions. The circumstances were there. If you didn't broker peace, you went in the other direction.

Doesn't matter. Brokering peace was not required to build the crucible
 
 

[dreamgazer]

Civilizations have poured resources into lots of things that later turned out to be a bad idea.

They've also poured resources into lots of things that turned out to be a great idea. Life-saving, even.

Of course, we're not talking about countless civilizations all working toward the exact same objective, based on technology.

[Lady Artifice]

 

Their location in the story is important to how appropriate their presence is and how well we can accept them in the story. Why would I look past those things? I don't know what you mean by "legitimate." This is like asking why it's stranger to see a fully grown tree in the middle of someone's house than in the middle of a forest because they are both trees. It makes sense in the latter but is questionable in the former.

 

 

I didn't claim you should. In response to another poster's claim that ME3 applied more space magic than ME1, I disagreed. Magic portals or magic wand, it's all magic. 

 

Which is fine by me. I'm in the happy position of actually liking the fantasy genre, so I don't perceive the mere recognition of it's elements as a valid criticism. 

 

 

 

You're right that it's often misused but the context matters in this case. The Crucible is not a DEM in ME3, but it is for the series as a whole. When looking at ME3 by itself, the Crucible is introduced early and you know it stops the Reapers somehow. There is where it fails to meet the definition. However, within the series as a whole it comes out of nowhere after a useless second chapter. 

 

 

It still doesn't fit the definition. To be Deus ex Machina, it must come apropos of nothing the hero does. If the hero works toward it, in any way, it cannot be accurately described as Deus ex Machina. 

 

 

 

 

It doesn't have to be a literal god or superior being.

 

 

Yes, I know.

[dreamgazer]

Doesn't matter. Brokering peace was not required to build the crucible

That's true. You either brokered peace or created a greater gap between the conflicting parties (or worse), which is even more interesting.

Thank you for amending my statement.

[dreamgazer]

The geth being synthetic was incidental to their role inthe story.  They could have been any race: krogan, asari, even human and it would hav emade little difference

Except it wasn't the krogan, asari, or humans. It was the rebelling synthetics and their form of logic that were swayed by the Reapers.

What, do you think this would only matter if the geth were hacked?
 

The Catalyst contradicted pretty much everything dangled from Sovereign's speech.

No, it didn't. It explained order over chaos, the rationale behind the technological control, and the cycles.

Is this the part where we discuss the "It is my home" statement and how there's no proof that the Catalyst is constantly on the Citadel?

[Lady Artifice]

I hate when people just throw out this blanket statement or similar ones as a defense for ME3 without getting into specifics. I'd gladly discuss it but there's nothing to work with here.  

 

 

I didn't defend ME3. I expressed an observation that it's a common, very human habit for our enjoyment of a story to influence our willingness to analyze it critically. 

 

 

And given your statement above, I really don't understand this one:

 

 

 

Where is that in Mass Effect?

 

 

That is my assessment of the ending's flaws. So...the ending. 

[TheJediSaint]

No, it didn't. It explained order over chaos, the rationale behind the technological control, and the cycles.

Is this the part where we discuss the "It is my home" statement and how there's no proof that the Catalyst is constantly on the Citadel?

 

It does strike me as a bit odd that the Reaper's backdoor into the Galaxy is also their boss's house.

[AlanC9]

It does strike me as a bit odd that the Reaper's backdoor into the Galaxy is also their boss's house.

*shrug* Sure. It's also a bit odd that the door doesn't open from their side.

[dreamgazer]

It does strike me as a bit odd that the Reaper's backdoor into the Galaxy is also their boss's house.

It'd be odd if there was proof that the Catalyst always stayed at his "home" after the Reaper cycles, instead of traveling with the Reaper networked consciousness. Could be like the geth in that regard. Could be that it only appears after the Reapers gain control of its "home".

[AlanC9]

Great Wall of China, for example.

Wait... didn't the Wall do exactly what it was supposed to do? Wasn't impenetrable, but wasn't supposed to be.

[dreamgazer]

*shrug* Sure. It's also a bit odd that the door doesn't open from their side.

Seriously, they devised a scheme that can very easily fall apart in any number of ways.

I strongly doubt the Protheans were the first to have advanced warning.

[TheJediSaint]

Wait... didn't the Wall do exactly what it was supposed to do? Wasn't impenetrable, but wasn't supposed to be.

Didn't stop the Mongols.

 

However, the Maginot Line would probably have been a better example

[TheJediSaint]

It'd be odd if there was proof that the Catalyst always stayed at his "home" after the Reaper cycles, instead of traveling with the Reaper networked consciousness. Could be like the geth in that regard. Could be that it only appears after the Reapers gain control of its "home".

 

There's no evidence to suggest that the Catalyst went anywhere between cycles, therefore the simplest expatiation is that it stayed put. Likely playing with its Naruto cards between cycles.

[dreamgazer]

There's no evidence to suggest that the Catalyst went anywhere between cycles, therefore the simplest expatiation is that it stayed put. Likely playing with its Naruto cards between cycles.

Not really. Simplest answer is that the consciousness traveled with, well, the Reaper consciousnesses.

If they're in darkspace, the Catalyst is in darkspace.

[Natureguy85]

Derp

 

[Natureguy85]

Tempted to not even respond after this post, since it starts off with an ad hominem.

 

 

Oh, please don't start that. It wasn't an ad hominem. It wasn't an attack and I addressed your arguments. I'm trying to have a real discussion with you here. I don't need another TTG or Gothpunkboy, please.

 

 

 

Sure, because it relies so heavily on necessary devices, like the data-drive DEM.
 

 

What effect does that have on the rest of the series that it needs a rewrite?

 

 

 

 

Yeah, you'll have to forgive me on that one. I was jumping ahead in the conversation to why the Reapers did things differently this time.

Divide and conquer minimizes Reaper casualties and conserves resources. Spreading out the way they do in ME3 preserves some stability in the Galaxy while they're aware that the Reapers have arrived, which suppresses mass suicides and attempts to destroy relays.
 

 

The Reapers are out to kill everyone. They dissolve people's bodies into goop. How are mass suicides a problem? And what good are attempts to destroy Relays? Would the Reapers really care about what merely slows them down? Destroying the Alpha Relay only costs them a few months.

 

 

 

There could literally be a trillion Reapers, and any number will be as tough to defeat as Sovereign, or tougher. There's no way to properly prepare for them. So sure, because I say so.

 

 

There could be as many or as few Reapers as a writer wants. A relatively conventional victory could have been set up. There would have to be something extra that called for a team of foot soldiers, of course.

 

 

 

 

How is it any different? Anderson tells you to go there, and the game doesn't progress until you do.
 

 

Anderson instructs you when you're looking for info on Saren on the Citadel. However, once you become a Specter, they only suggest the locations and constantly insist that it's up to Shepard what to do. This is very important from a writing and player empowerment perspective. Sure, it's mechanically the same but it feels different.

 

 

 

I didn't find it boring. You had to broker piece between species to assemble the Crucible.

 

No you didn't. You could have the Quarians or Geth wipe out the other. You could have the Krogan help the Turians only to get something they want. Brokering peace is an option, of course. There is no one thing that is necessary to build the Crucible. You just need the EMS total to be high enough. Add in multiplayer and that amount goes down.

 

I should make it clear that the individual missions aren't necessarily boring but I'm referring to the whole concept of the Crucible. A certain mission might be fun and interesting but it's only connection to the Crucible is that it rewards you with something that somebody else uses off screen.

 

 

 

Exposition dumps equal being deep and profound? Nope, they're just exposition dumps.

It was never trying to be that deep. You should stop trying to force it into that corner just to attack it. It's essentially a straw man.

 

No, it wasn't deep or profound, but it attempted to be so. The Catalyst preaches at you and has all the power in both the situation and the conversation. It lets Shepard win.

 

 

 

 

And the geth.
 

 

That would be the "one of the major side plots" I mentioned. However, the Geth don't have an animosity toward Organics. Only the heretics do and the writer put them in the vast minority.

 

 

 

The entire plot isn't about EMS, though.

 

Yes, it is. Your only objectives are to get ships and dudes to fight and to get help for the Crucible. Everything else, be it the Genophage cure or the Rannoch war, are means to that end.