1042 réponses à ce sujet

[Natureguy85]

Yes. The Catalyst adds value to the story by addressing the bait than Drew Karpyshyn dangled with Sovereign's speech, and by giving Shepard perspective and context.

 

 

What bait and how was it addressed? Sovereign's speech, given when the Catalyst wasn't even a thought yet, is why I feel the Catalyst is so ill fitting to the story. What perspective and context? One of the major problems with the ending is that the Catalyst's claims are not supported by the story.

 

 

 

 

Negative. The illusion was preserved.

 

I suppose this is somewhat subjective but I don't see how. ME1 suggested where I should go and in ME3 I was following explicit orders. I could also hit the 3 objectives in any order I wanted.

 

 

 

More the fact that countless civilizations have poured their knowledge into crafting the Crucible. Why would countless cycles design a device that was unsafe or not actually designed to destroy the Reapers?

 

"Everybody else is doin' it!"

 

For the same reason this cycle is doing it; they have no other options and are desperate. It's not a reason to trust that it will work.

 

 

 

 

Actually, it does. Saren's entire objective is to usher in the arrival of the Reapers, and the Conduit and Citadel are the answer. Beforehand, this was an unsolvable problem, elucidated by Vigil's info-dump. With the data drive, which was entirely unforeshadowed, the unsolvable problem is solved.

 

It wasn't an unsolvable problem. The solution was to try to beat Saren to the Conduit. Unfortunately for that plan, he was always a step ahead. So the solution became beat him to Ilos, then to follow him through the Conduit and stop him from giving control of the Citadel to Sovereign. The data file was only a solution to the problem of being too late to stop him and that wasn't an issue until it happened.

 

 

 

 

If that were the case, they wouldn't need top scientists to just build it. They did. They need scientists to solve logistical and computational problems. It ain't "Insert Plug A Into Slot B". That's like saying you can give this to ME2's Gardner and be totally fine:

 

You're right to a point. I am simplifying it, but your objection misses the point. All they're doing is following instructions. Sure, it may take smarts to figure it out, as in the aforementioned Contact, but what does this cycle add? What did they figure out that all the other cycles didn't? Vendetta, the Prothean VI is the one that tells them it needs the Citadel.

 

 

Guess it depends on how accommodating you are to magic brain filters and prototype relays that violate the lore, both of which are of the utmost importance to the plot in ME1.

 

Yes, it does matter how willing we are to accommodate certain things, which has to do with several factors including timing, presentation, and how much stress our suspension of disbelief is already under.

 

Remind me how the Conduit violates the lore? I won't say you're wrong right now, but I don't remember.

[TheJediSaint]

Not really. Simplest answer is that the consciousness traveled with, well, the Reaper consciousnesses.

If they're in darkspace, the Catalyst is in darkspace.

 

That would be a nice assumption if there was any evidence to backup that claim, but everything in game suggest that the Catalyst kept his digital butt firmly planted in the Citadel.

 

Also, to quote Mass Effect's own Codex.

 

An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations.

 

[Natureguy85]

I didn't claim you should. In response to another poster's claim that ME3 applied more space magic than ME1, I disagreed. Magic portals or magic wand, it's all magic. 

 

Which is fine by me. I'm in the happy position of actually liking the fantasy genre, so I don't perceive the mere recognition of it's elements as a valid criticism.

 

Ah, see you have a different bar for "magic" than I do. I don't consider the Mass Relays to be magic despite their breaking of the real laws of physics because they are well defined by the universe. They are shown and we know how they do what they do. They are consistent with the laws of Mass Effect. I posted this Tolkien quote earlier.

 

 

"What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful 'sub-creator'. He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is 'true' : it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken ; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive secondary World from outside."

 

So I don't consider them to be "magic" in this context. The Crucible, on the other hand, is unknown and unexplained. It just drops into our laps and does things.

 

 

 

 

It still doesn't fit the definition. To be Deus ex Machina, it must come apropos of nothing the hero does. If the hero works toward it, in any way, it cannot be accurately described as Deus ex Machina.

 

Ok, so what does Shepard do to discover the Crucible?

 

 

 

 

 

I didn't defend ME3. I expressed an observation that it's a common, very human habit for our enjoyment of a story to influence our willingness to analyze it critically. 

 

That's cyclical though. I would argue that I enjoy Mass Effect 1's plot more because it's problems don't damage it as much as ME3's damage that plot and the series. I do look at them critically and find ME1 superior.

 

 

 

 

That is my assessment of the ending's flaws. So...the ending.

 

Oops, sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant specifically Mass Effect 1.

 

 

 

I strongly doubt the Protheans were the first to have advanced warning.

 

The Protheans didn't have advanced warning. This cycle did, which is why this cycle is different and uniquely positioned to win at the end of the first game. The next two threw this away though.

 

 

 

Not really. Simplest answer is that the consciousness traveled with, well, the Reaper consciousnesses.

If they're in darkspace, the Catalyst is in darkspace.

 

Not that you're idea is wrong, but that's not simpler than the idea that it sits in the place it refers to as it's home and part of it.

 

 

 

 

That would be a nice assumption if there was any evidence to backup that claim, but everything in game suggest that the Catalyst kept his digital butt firmly planted in the Citadel.

 

Also, to quote Mass Effect's own Codex.

 

Quote

An AI cannot be transmitted across a communication channel or computer network. Without its blue box, an AI is no more than data files. Loading these files into a new blue box will create a new personality, as variations in the quantum hardware and runtime results create unpredictable variations.

 

 

Emphasis mine.  This idea could have been a cool plot point actually!

[Learn To Love Yourself]

I'm with you, OP.  I just hope Andromeda confirms IT.

[dreamgazer]

Oh, please don't start that. It wasn't an ad hominem. It wasn't an attack and I addressed your arguments. I'm trying to have a real discussion with you here. I don't need another TTG or Gothpunkboy, please.

If you start a series of posts by deriding them first, it sets a tone. You undercut the poster before addressing the points.
 
 And that's mighty easy to do when you're doing nothing but criticizing.
 

 

What effect does that have on the rest of the series that it needs a rewrite?

Other than relying on a device routinely referenced as being objectively bad?

It did kinda set a precedent. DEMs are A-OK.
 

The Reapers are out to kill everyone. They dissolve people's bodies into goop. How are mass suicides a problem? And what good are attempts to destroy Relays? Would the Reapers really care about what merely slows them down? Destroying the Alpha Relay only costs them a few months.

Reapers preserve organic tissue. Mass suicide impacts that. Relays would have to be rebuilt, which takes time and resources.

They may be eternal, infinite, and immortal, but they still have to preserve stuff.
 

There could be as many or as few Reapers as a writer wants. A relatively conventional victory could have been set up. There would have to be something extra that called for a team of foot soldiers, of course.

The Galaxy has no idea how many Reapers there are. They'd be preparing for an enemy they know nothing about.

All we know is their numbers will darken the sky of every world.
 

Anderson instructs you when you're looking for info on Saren on the Citadel. However, once you become a Specter, they only suggest the locations and constantly insist that it's up to Shepard what to do. This is very important from a writing and player empowerment perspective. Sure, it's mechanically the same but it feels different.

Not really. You're given the leads, you pursue the leads, you get the necessary info and move to the destination. It's all dropped in your lap.
 

No you didn't. You could have the Quarians or Geth wipe out the other. You could have the Krogan help the Turians only to get something they want. Brokering peace is an option, of course. There is no one thing that is necessary to build the Crucible. You just need the EMS total to be high enough. Add in multiplayer and that amount goes down.

Yes, this is true, but how you decide to handle the opportunity to broker peace (or destroy the possibility) hampers your effort.

I don't find that boring.
 

I should make it clear that the individual missions aren't necessarily boring but I'm referring to the whole concept of the Crucible. A certain mission might be fun and interesting but it's only connection to the Crucible is that it rewards you with something that somebody else uses off screen.

Until Shepard uses it. The Crucible is over most Shepards' heads, and that's okay.
 

No, it wasn't deep or profound, but it attempted to be so. The Catalyst preaches at you and has all the power in both the situation and the conversation. It lets Shepard win.

It really doesn't try to be that deep and profound. Why do you think that? It's just an info-dump with a theme attached. Get over trying to attack it for being something it's not trying to be. It makes you think a wee bit, nothing more.

And no, the Catalyst says that the Crucible changed it. Shepard has some agency, and the Galaxy earned it by erecting the Crucible to a working state.
 

That would be the "one of the major side plots" I mentioned. However, the Geth don't have an animosity toward Organics. Only the heretics do and the writer put them in the vast minority.

An entire antagonist for the first game isn't exactly a "side plot".

The geth were a mess, but that's their history. There was rebellion and animosity.
 

Yes, it is. Your only objectives are to get ships and dudes to fight and to get help for the Crucible. Everything else, be it the Genophage cure or the Rannoch war, are means to that end.

Your objective is to build the Crucible and stop the Reapers. The components of EMS are extensions of that objective. Without that goal, EMS has no point.

[AlanC9]

 
There could be as many or as few Reapers as a writer wants. A relatively conventional victory could have been set up. There would have to be something extra that called for a team of foot soldiers, of course.

Well, the ME2 final cutscene puts some limits on that, although various retcons could have been applied. ME3 already did apply one with the introduction of the destroyer-type Reapers.

Of course, all this proves is that the people designing that cutscene never had any interest in a conventional victory. For pretty good reasons; CVs tend not to be very dramatic once you get past the era when you can kill the enemy king and win the war in a day.
 

Anderson instructs you when you're looking for info on Saren on the Citadel. However, once you become a Specter, they only suggest the locations and constantly insist that it's up to Shepard what to do. This is very important from a writing and player empowerment perspective. Sure, it's mechanically the same but it feels different.

Different in a good way, though? When I feel the narrative bending over backwards to give me "agency," I just drop out of character and stop feeling anything except the desire to solve whatever puzzles are now before me.

[dreamgazer]

The Protheans didn't have advanced warning. This cycle did, which is why this cycle is different and uniquely positioned to win at the end of the first game. The next two threw this away though.

That's what I meant (I'm getting tired): that the Protheans provided an advanced warning. I'm sure they're not the first to do so.
 
This cycle has an opportunity. The Crucible capitalizes on that opportunity.

All we know is that the Reaper numbers will darken the skies of every world, and have never failed. This cycle can't prepare for something they know nothing about, and there's no way of calculating the Reaper numbers. Only that there's a metric ton of 'em, and they're all going to be about as difficult as Sovereign to take down.
 
 
 

Not that you're idea is wrong, but that's not simpler than the idea that it sits in the place it refers to as it's home and part of it.

Of course it is. The Reaper consciousness travels with the Reapers. It'd require having the Reaper consciousness in two places at once, at all times, perhaps able to be traced on the Citadel.

[dreamgazer]

That would be a nice assumption if there was any evidence to backup that claim, but everything in game suggest that the Catalyst kept his digital butt firmly planted in the Citadel.

Such as? Why would the Reapers keep their collective consciousness in a single, static box that could be detected or destroyed?

We are talking about the same beings that projected Harbinger's consciousness into Collector bodies, aren't we?

This is the same universe where geth in close proximity develop stronger processing power, right?
 

Also, to quote Mass Effect's own Codex.

The Reapers are also technologically advanced, have countless cycles of knowledge under their belt, and are a fusion of organic and synthetic material. What does the codex of primitives have to do with this?

[dreamgazer]

What bait and how was it addressed? Sovereign's speech, given when the Catalyst wasn't even a thought yet, is why I feel the Catalyst is so ill fitting to the story. What perspective and context? One of the major problems with the ending is that the Catalyst's claims are not supported by the story.

Order over chaos, technological paths the Reapers desired, cycles of extermination.

Karpyshyn was persistently baiting an answer to these questions. If he wanted them to be Lovecraftian mysteries, Sovereign wouldn't have explained a thing.
 

I suppose this is somewhat subjective but I don't see how. ME1 suggested where I should go and in ME3 I was following explicit orders. I could also hit the 3 objectives in any order I wanted.

You were also pointed to all three and the game wouldn't let you progress until you hit all three.
 

"Everybody else is doin' it!"
 
For the same reason this cycle is doing it; they have no other options and are desperate. It's not a reason to trust that it will work.

If they're pouring this incalculable amount of time and energy into the solution, why wouldn't it work?
 

It wasn't an unsolvable problem.

Yes, it was. Saren was out there, the Conduit was out there, they were going to let the Reapers into the galaxy, and we had no idea where they were, where they were headed, anything. There was no solution to the problem in sight.
 

The solution was to try to beat Saren to the Conduit.

Which, in itself, is unsolvable since we have no idea where either of them are.
 

Unfortunately for that plan, he was always a step ahead. So the solution became beat him to Ilos, then to follow him through the Conduit and stop him from giving control of the Citadel to Sovereign. The data file was only a solution to the problem of being too late to stop him and that wasn't an issue until it happened.

 
Actually, the data file is a "fix" for what was Saren's plan all along, which allowed the Reapers to come in from darkspace, repeatedly mentioned as the motivation. Without the data, Shepard and the galaxy are screwed. It solves an unsolvable problem, which was the epicenter of Saren's plot.

Thus, a DEM.
 

You're right to a point. I am simplifying it, but your objection misses the point. All they're doing is following instructions. Sure, it may take smarts to figure it out, as in the aforementioned Contact, but what does this cycle add? What did they figure out that all the other cycles didn't? Vendetta, the Prothean VI is the one that tells them it needs the Citadel.

Considering this cycle is less technologically-advanced, we may not have added anything more than efficiency measures or structural integrity. Why does that matter?
 

Yes, it does matter how willing we are to accommodate certain things, which has to do with several factors including timing, presentation, and how much stress our suspension of disbelief is already under.

It also has to do with bias and subjectivity.
 

Remind me how the Conduit violates the lore? I won't say you're wrong right now, but I don't remember.

The Conduit is a prototype relay, which has to point at its pair to function, but was built as a stationary device on an orbiting planet. The Mako also cannot feed it the necessary weight and velocity data required by starships to use the relays. And that's ignoring the convenience of the Mako's safe landing on the Citadel and the logistical placement of the "statue" pair.

It's a teleportation device, not a relay.

[Lady Artifice]

Ah, see you have a different bar for "magic" than I do. I don't consider the Mass Relays to be magic despite their breaking of the real laws of physics because they are well defined by the universe. They are shown and we know how they do what they do. They are consistent with the laws of Mass Effect. I posted this Tolkien quote earlier.

 

"What really happens is that the story-maker proves a successful 'sub-creator'. He makes a Secondary World which your mind can enter. Inside it, what he relates is 'true' : it accords with the laws of that world. You therefore believe it, while you are, as it were, inside. The moment disbelief arises, the spell is broken ; the magic, or rather art, has failed. You are then out in the Primary World again, looking at the little abortive secondary World from outside."

 

So I don't consider them to be "magic" in this context. The Crucible, on the other hand, is unknown and unexplained. It just drops into our laps and does things.

 

 

Okay.

 

 

 

Ok, so what does Shepard do to discover the Crucible?

 

 

Nothing in particular. Liara, however, does plenty. It's also far from unprecedented, and not at all the first time in the series they've suddenly encountered crucial prothean tech in the fight against the Reapers. 

 

 

 

Oops, sorry, I didn't make myself clear. I meant specifically Mass Effect 1.

 

 

I'm still not clear on what you're asking me. That was my criticism of the ME3 ending exclusively. My problem with it was that I found it's delivery pompous and unsatisfying, though no more fantastical and abrupt than the last minute solutions provided in ME1 thanks to Vigil's data drive. 

[ModernAcademic]

Yet that is not what happens. The Kid is simply wrong at best or lying at worst (either of which call into question Control and Synthesis as well). So your entire position is based on nothing. We see the ships are fine. We see Tali's suit still active. We see the soldiers guns don't stop working. We see Shepard breath. None of that doom and gloom the Kid claimed happens. And the Kid never says anything about the Geth dying. Not a single line. That is something you and many others inject into the story. Not Bioware. Only EDI dies and only because she is made of Reaper parts. This is per Patrick Weekes. It had nothing to do with her being an AI as when they did the first draft she didn't die.

 

If that happens, then neither is the Intelligence wrong (or lying), nor am I. 

 

The real reason is that the game has a gigantic inconsistency which was ignored by the devs, one that is so great it invalidates one of the endings. The survival of synthetics contradicts the revelation made by a key character. So the character's not wrong. It's the devs who were absurdedly careless with such an important detail.

 

 

The kid doesn't have to say anything about the geth because he already stated that Destroy affects ALL synthetics. NOT just the Reapers.

Geth are synthetic. So YES, they are terminated if Shepard chooses Destroy. It's simple, straightforward logic. Again, if they remain alive in that ending, then the devs are to blame. They should've paid more attention to such inconsistencies.

 

And about EDI, she was the Rogue VI we met on Luna early on in ME1. She wasn't built from Reaper parts. She had those parts included in her original programming by Cerberus. 

(The info is in one of the videos in Cronos Station. It surprised the hell out of me.)

[straykat]

That is a cool reveal about EDI..

 

On a sidenote, I'm playing through ME1 again and just saved at the Luna spot for later. I just finished the Feros cluster bit and got that Prothean orb. What I wanted to say though is it's kind of cool how there's elements of future squadmates, even in these little things. EDI, Javik (for the Prothean Orb), Jack and the biotics ("I'll destroy you!"), Miranda and Cerberus..

[AlanC9]

Karpyshyn was persistently baiting an answer to these questions. If he wanted them to be Lovecraftian mysteries, Sovereign wouldn't have explained a thing. 

Note that what Karpyshyn wanted isn't really up for debate anyway. His interview statements were quite clear about those questions; the issue was how to answer them, not if they should be answered.

Whether that was a bad thing to want is a separate question.

[AngryFrozenWater]

It's a teleportation device, not a relay.

Vigil: The Conduit is the key. Before the reapers attacked, we protheans were on the cusp of unlocking the mysteries behind mass relay technology.

Vigil: Ilos was a top secret facility. Here, researchers worked to create a small-scale version of a mass relay. One that linked directly to the Citadel: the hub of the relay network.

[Iakus]

 

The Conduit is a prototype relay, which has to point at its pair to function, but was built as a stationary device on an orbiting planet. The Mako also cannot feed it the necessary weight and velocity data required by starships to use the relays. And that's ignoring the convenience of the Mako's safe landing on the Citadel and the logistical placement of the "statue" pair.

It's a teleportation device, not a relay.

No more ridiculous than any other relay.  Remember, objects in space are constantly in motion.  The Charon Relay is in orbit around Pluto, for example.  That the Conduit is planetside is meaningless. 

 

The Mako can't feed necessary data into the Conduit?  Citation needed.

 

"Conveniently safe" landing?  That part is rather convenient, I'll grant you.  But if Shep died at that point it would be an ending as bad as ME3 so I'll let it slide.

[Seboist]

I'm with you, OP.  I just hope Andromeda confirms IT.

Given that Andromeda's mere existence is a workaround the endings/a soft-reboot, you're better off hoping for the sun to rise from the west and set in the east.

[AlanC9]

No more ridiculous than any other relay.  Remember, objects in space are constantly in motion.  The Charon Relay is in orbit around Pluto, for example.  That the Conduit is planetside is meaningless. 

I think the argument is that a free-floating relay could orient itself towards the target, while the two Conduit terminals are mounted so they can't.

Plus the whole going-through-walls thing.

[Iakus]

I think the argument is that a free-floating relay could orient itself towards the target, while the two Conduit terminals are mounted so they can't.

Plus the whole going-through-walls thing.

Does the relays have to be pointed in any given direction?  

 

And again, relays shoot ships across the galaxy regardless of what planets or stars might be in the way.  Heck the only way to get to the Citadel safely is via mass relay, as the nebula itself is extremely difficult to traverse normally.

[Laughing_Man]

And again, relays shoot ships across the galaxy regardless of what planets or stars might be in the way. 

 

Space is mostly empty of stars and planets, if you have two floating / orbiting relays with a good VI to govern their alignment,

there is no real reason for ships to hit planets on the way.

[Natureguy85]

If you start a series of posts by deriding them first, it sets a tone. You undercut the poster before addressing the points.
 
 And that's mighty easy to do when you're doing nothing but criticizing.

 

I suppose there's something to that, but I didn't call you stupid and I addressed points substantively.

 

 

 

Other than relying on a device routinely referenced as being objectively bad?

It did kinda set a precedent. DEMs are A-OK.
 
 

 

It's still not a DEM and it still doesn't have the narrative importance that the Crucible does.

 

 

 

Reapers preserve organic tissue. Mass suicide impacts that. Relays would have to be rebuilt, which takes time and resources.

They may be eternal, infinite, and immortal, but they still have to preserve stuff.

 

So? We don't know how many it takes to make a new Reaper. EDI suggests it's "millions," which isn't really that many, given total population. They have no problem landing and vaporizing people. They leave corpses piled up on the Citadel. They liquefy people. Bones are still Organic material too. Mass suicides wouldn't be a problem.

 

Not having to rebuild Relays is better, but there's nothing to suggest this is a concern for the Reapers.

 

Neither of these are good reasons to not take the Citadel.

 

 

 

The Galaxy has no idea how many Reapers there are. They'd be preparing for an enemy they know nothing about.

All we know is their numbers will darken the sky of every world.
 

 

Right, there could be as many as the writer wanted. It would be a lot, but how many is that really? They could have had the Galaxy advance more from researching Sovereign. Preparing for an enemy they know nothing about is exactly what happens and then the solution is a device they know nothing about.

 

 

 

Not really. You're given the leads, you pursue the leads, you get the necessary info and move to the destination. It's all dropped in your lap.
 

 

And yet you can go to them in any order, where you can't for the main missions of ME3. You do get some choice on the ME3 secondary objectives, which is nice. There is also still value in the illusion that Shepard and the player are the ones in charge making decisions.

 

 

 

 

Yes, this is true, but how you decide to handle the opportunity to broker peace (or destroy the possibility) hampers your effort.

I don't find that boring.

 

Well good for you. It's just points and those points lost for a sub-optimal result are easily replaced so while I get invested in the brokering of peace itself and the two parties involved, I have less investment in how that affects the Crucible because I just know they help in some undefined way.

 

Also, EMS is more than things related to the Crucible. I have a better understanding of how Geth or Quarian ships help the war effort..

 

 

 

Until Shepard uses it. The Crucible is over most Shepards' heads, and that's okay.
 

 

That's far less interesting than him being more involved with the ultimate solution to the problem of the Reapers. He's still ignorant of it when he uses it and just picks something based on what the Catalyst lays out.

 

 

 

And no, the Catalyst says that the Crucible changed it. Shepard has some agency, and the Galaxy earned it by erecting the Crucible to a working state.

 

Shepard's only agency is picking the "new solution" once the Catalyst lets him. Yes, it said the Crucible changed it, but how so? I understand that it made Synthesis possible, but the Crucible is basically just a giant battery that utilizes things the Reapers built into the Citadel for some reason.

 

 

 

Your objective is to build the Crucible and stop the Reapers. The components of EMS are extensions of that objective. Without that goal, EMS has no point.

 

That was called into question once we found out that Sovereign didn't like the Geth and they'd be destroyed as well. It was bashed to pieces once we met Legion and found out that the Heretics were a small part of the entire Geth. The "true Geth" had no animosity toward Organics. The Geth were just mooks.

[Natureguy85]

That's what I meant (I'm getting tired): that the Protheans provided an advanced warning. I'm sure they're not the first to do so.
 
This cycle has an opportunity. The Crucible capitalizes on that opportunity.
 

 

Oh, ok, I understand you now. No, the Protheans were the first to be able to give advanced warning, at least of the kind they did. That's clear from the first game.

 

It's too bad the galaxy didn't capitalize on the opportunity between the end of ME1 and the start of ME3.

 

 

 

All we know is that the Reaper numbers will darken the skies of every world, and have never failed. This cycle can't prepare for something they know nothing about, and there's no way of calculating the Reaper numbers. Only that there's a metric ton of 'em, and they're all going to be about as difficult as Sovereign to take down.

 

And yet they build a device they know nothing about to beat an enemy they know nothing about. Gee, too bad we didn't try to learn about them in the second act of the trilogy.

 

No, they won't be as difficult as Sovereign to take down because now the galaxy has the Thanix cannon. That should have made more of a difference than it did, along with possibly some other advancements.

 

 

 

 

Of course it is. The Reaper consciousness travels with the Reapers. It'd require having the Reaper consciousness in two places at once, at all times, perhaps able to be traced on the Citadel.

 

 

Such as? Why would the Reapers keep their collective consciousness in a single, static box that could be detected or destroyed?

We are talking about the same beings that projected Harbinger's consciousness into Collector bodies, aren't we?

This is the same universe where geth in close proximity develop stronger processing power, right?
 

The Reapers are also technologically advanced, have countless cycles of knowledge under their belt, and are a fusion of organic and synthetic material. What does the codex of primitives have to do with this?

 

The Catalyst isn't the Overmind from StarCraft. It has a physical presence somewhere. When Harbinger projects its consciousness, it is still present within its body, just as Sovereign was when controlling Saren and EDI is in the Normandy when controlling the EVA body. The Geth network is something different entirely.

 

You also seem to be arguing which idea is better when we started by discussing what was simpler.

 

As to the last bit, "Reaper tech" is not a good answer to every question, especially when you're suggesting something with no narrative support.

 

 

 

Order over chaos, technological paths the Reapers desired, cycles of extermination.

Karpyshyn was persistently baiting an answer to these questions. If he wanted them to be Lovecraftian mysteries, Sovereign wouldn't have explained a thing.
 

 

Yeah, but not necessarily those answers. I'd say almost certainly not those answers. Sovereign says the chaos was Organic evolution. The Catalyst says the chaos is conflict between Synthetics and Organics. But apparently Organic evolution is somewhat ordered since Organics always make Synthetics that kill them. I guess Synthetic evolution is ordered too.

 

 

 

If they're pouring this incalculable amount of time and energy into the solution, why wouldn't it work?
 

 

Are you suggesting people never put a lot of time and energy into ideas that don't work? Are you further suggesting all the other cycles didn't put the same time and energy into the Crucible? Hey, what if they put that time and energy into a conventional victory? Would that suddenly make it work? Do they just need to want it really, really bad?

 

 

 

Yes, it was. Saren was out there, the Conduit was out there, they were going to let the Reapers into the galaxy, and we had no idea where they were, where they were headed, anything. There was no solution to the problem in sight.
 

Which, in itself, is unsolvable since we have no idea where either of them are.
 

 

In sight. We were going to find it and had leads. You just said murders are unsolvable because they don't know who did it when they start.

 

 

 

 

 
Actually, the data file is a "fix" for what was Saren's plan all along, which allowed the Reapers to come in from darkspace, repeatedly mentioned as the motivation. Without the data, Shepard and the galaxy are screwed. It solves an unsolvable problem, which was the epicenter of Saren's plot.

Thus, a DEM.
 

 

 

You've decided it's a DEM ahead of time and are now trying to twist the definition and situation to match. Stopping Saren was never an unsolvable problem. The original goal is to beat him to the Conduit. Vigil tells you that you have a chance to catch Saren before he can accomplish his goal. The data file only delayed Sovereign after Saren had opened the Citadel and transferred control, and after you beat Saren, which was after that data had been given for that purpose. It doesn't beat Saren of Sovereign. It is not a DEM.

 

 

 

Considering this cycle is less technologically-advanced, we may not have added anything more than efficiency measures or structural integrity. Why does that matter?
 

 

Every other cycle since the beginning added to it. Why shouldn't this cycle have a contribution? That would certainly be cooler than the Reapers forgetting to turn off the Relays even after they took over the Citadel, thus allowing the big fleet (and Crucible itself) to attack.

 

 

 

The Conduit is a prototype relay, which has to point at its pair to function, but was built as a stationary device on an orbiting planet. The Mako also cannot feed it the necessary weight and velocity data required by starships to use the relays. And that's ignoring the convenience of the Mako's safe landing on the Citadel and the logistical placement of the "statue" pair.

It's a teleportation device, not a relay.

 

Yeah, this is fair, although I think the biggest issue is the idea of "drift."  As you pointed out earlier, people have different limits on where their suspension of disbelief is broken. For me and many others, the story hadn't come to a hard, strange stop and made me start analyzing everything with a suspicious eye. I was into the story and can excuse this under Rule of Cool, Rule of Drama, and use of a Chekov's gun.

[Natureguy85]

Well, the ME2 final cutscene puts some limits on that, although various retcons could have been applied. ME3 already did apply one with the introduction of the destroyer-type Reapers.

Of course, all this proves is that the people designing that cutscene never had any interest in a conventional victory. For pretty good reasons; CVs tend not to be very dramatic once you get past the era when you can kill the enemy king and win the war in a day.

 

Yeah, you may be right. I haven't counted, but there appear to be thousands of Reapers there. Although, is that really all that many when the Reapers hit all over rather than going system by system fleets can be amassed and moved, and the Thanix cannon is on fighters now?

 

But who said anything about winning in a day and without significant loss? The game could still require amassing the super fleet.

 

 

 

 Different in a good way, though? When I feel the narrative bending over backwards to give me "agency," I just drop out of character and stop feeling anything except the desire to solve whatever puzzles are now before me.

 

Absolutely in a good way. How was the narrative bending backwards to give you agency? Specters and their power and independence were established well before Shepard ever became one. The game is merely delivering on that buildup. Sure, players are going to differ on what exactly that does for them, but at least it tries.

 

 

 

Nothing in particular. Liara, however, does plenty. It's also far from unprecedented, and not at all the first time in the series they've suddenly encountered crucial prothean tech in the fight against the Reapers.

 

Liara looks in an archive in the time between games: that's it. You're right that it's not the first time that they've found Prothean tech, but what was the nature of that tech or those other times? The Beacons were sources of information and opened up the adventure. Shepard interacted with it at the beginning, even if it was accidental. The Cipher (what is with Bioware naming everything using C-words?) changed Shepard and, along with the vision, made him unique and special to this story. How does the Crucible do that?

 

You mentioned liking fantasy. Usually when the heroes' quest is to go get some super weapon to defeat the enemy, that weapon is steeped in lore and legend. World building goes into it. There's none of that for the Crucible.

 

 

 

I'm still not clear on what you're asking me. That was my criticism of the ME3 ending exclusively. My problem with it was that I found it's delivery pompous and unsatisfying, though no more fantastical and abrupt than the last minute solutions provided in ME1 thanks to Vigil's data drive.

[The Twilight God]

If that happens, then neither is the Intelligence wrong (or lying), nor am I. 
 
The survival of synthetics contradicts the revelation made by a key character.

What revelation? And how exactly does the word of the game's primary antagonist (whose back is against the wall) in the last seven minutes of the game trump the other 120+ hours that make up the rest of ME1-ME3, not to mention the comics and the novels which indicate it isn't complete on the up and up? What evidence do you have that this "key character" is not simply telling a mix or truths, half-truths and lies in order to save its own butt?
 

The kid doesn't have to say anything about the geth because he already stated that Destroy affects ALL synthetics. NOT just the Reapers.

Yes, "affects". It says nothing about destroying all synthetics. It says others will be destroyed. You are literally injecting that meaning into the word "affect". The vague, yet desired, implication being that ALL synthetics and the people who rely on them may die. I.e. people with pacemakers, people in space on ships or stations, people who need exosuits, people with blue boxes, people being keep alive by respirators, etc. However, this is never explicitly stated. The idea of it is nonetheless instilled in the player to make them question their desire to destroy the Reapers.

You're saying it's inconsistent, but you CHOOSE to view it that way even though all evidence dictates that it isn't inconsistent. It's only inconsistent when you made the choice to inject a meaning in a statement that isn't in any way explicit. What you are doing is simply declaring something as is and then inventing a scenario to go along with your made up assertion.

An example of an inconsistency would be if Turian ships' mass effect field gnerators where shut down, but not those of the Alliance ships. Or if the smaller humanoid mechs all shut down, but not the heavy mechs. Or if Bioware actually showed the Geth going inert while every other synthetic object (like Alliance ships) and their corresponding software continued on without a hitch; that would be inconsistent. What occurs in the ME3 Destroy ending is quite consistent. Only that which is synthesized by reaper technology is disintegrated. Nothing else is noticeably affected. You cannot provide a single instance where this is not the case. Therefore, it is textbook consistent.
 

And about EDI, she was the Rogue VI we met on Luna early on in ME1. She wasn't built from Reaper parts. She had those parts included in her original programming by Cerberus.

EDI, the AI, was built from reaper parts. Per the writers themselves she was. The Rogue VI was not. To look at it another way, the Shepard in ME2-ME3 was reconstructed from synthetics and lazarus tech. The Shepard in ME1 was not.

The Rogue VI was, according the Cerberus scientists, "Smart enough to signal for help, but it won't be talking philosophy anytime soon".

Remember, this was a VI, not an AI. A VI does not have a blue box. The original VI was more akin to Geth than an genuine AI.

The Cerberus scientist states, "Combining it with Reaper tech... well...".

We know that EDI has a blue box and is a genuine AI. Therefore it stands to reason that her blue box is comprised of reaper tech. Specifically, parts of Sovereign. EDI can be considered, for all intents and purposes, a non-indoctrinated Reaper program.

[Jeremiah12LGeek]

I can't even pretend to be surprised that this is already 32 pages long.

[straykat]

I can't even pretend to be surprised that this is already 32 pages long.

 

Yeah, we all rehashed an argument of ME3 ending choices..

 

I haven't been in these new forums much, so it was kind of neat actually. I haven't done that in years.