1042 réponses à ce sujet

[fdrty]

As I posted in another thread about your decisions, I'll post here what I said there:

 

 

I really feel that people have unrealistic expectations when it comes to how much your decisions can matter in future games.

 

It is incredibly difficult to craft a narrative which allows for players to make several decisions - and to have those carry on for 3 games in a row. By the third game in the series, the flags are easily beyond a hundred. At some point, they had to bring it to an end, otherwise it would just spiral out of control. Andromeda is a good place to do exactly that.

 

 

Another thing Bioware has to consider in the new player experience. It would be amazing if they put in a million links to previous games, we all got to see our favourites return, and the game was one long citadel-style fanservice mission. But that would suck for new players. Wiping the slate clean will make MEA the most accessible ME game since ME1. I, for one, am interested to see where they go with ME and what new things they can offer, and I do not want to see the same characters, the same political and cultural issues, the same everything. That setting is done, those conflicts are resolved, the galaxy is literally smashed apart with the detonation of the mass relays.

 

And, let's be honest, none of us expect MEA to be a standalone entry. It will likely be the start of its own trilogy. So, could you really have branching narrative paths with dozens of unique flags each, game after game, for 6 games? If you use a save editor you can see that by ME3 the amount of flags for dialogue and choices were numbering beyond 100. Could you imagine how many there would be by ME5 or 6, the amount of work that would go into writing, coding, voice acting, animating etc. just for those branches, and how much of that would be wasted, when most players, by the time the 6th game rolls around, aren't going see like 4/5 of that content, nor will they go all the way back to ME1 just to have different decisions? And this is a company who said they wouldn't do origins for Dragon Age because they felt that not enough people played through enough of them to justify their expense.

 

I played a game a while back called the Yawgh. It had a cool art style and an interesting story but it had so many branching paths that the game could only be 10 minutes long. That, and I myself tried to write a couple of simple narrative games with branching paths and player choice, and that was when I realised how difficult making branching narratives really is. Cut Bioware a break here.

[straykat]

 

As I posted in another thread about your decisions, I'll post here what I said there:

 

 

 

Another thing Bioware has to consider in the new player experience. It would be amazing if they put in a million links to previous games, we all got to see our favourites return, and the game was one long citadel-style fanservice mission. But that would suck for new players. Wiping the slate clean will make MEA the most accessible ME game since ME1. I, for one, am interested to see where they go with ME and what new things they can offer, and I do not want to see the same characters, the same political and cultural issues, the same everything. That setting is done, those conflicts are resolved, the galaxy is literally smashed apart with the detonation of the mass relays.

 

And, let's be honest, none of us expect MEA to be a standalone entry. It will likely be the start of its own trilogy. So, could you really have branching narrative paths with dozens of unique flags each, game after game, for 6 games? If you use a save editor you can see that by ME3 the amount of flags for dialogue and choices were numbering beyond 100. Could you imagine how many there would be by ME5 or 6, the amount of work that would go into writing, coding, voice acting, animating etc. just for those branches, and how much of that would be wasted, when most players, by the time the 6th game rolls around, aren't going see like 4/5 of that content, nor will they go all the way back to ME1 just to have different decisions? And this is a company who said they wouldn't do origins for Dragon Age because they felt that not enough people played through enough of them to justify their expense.

 

I played a game a while back called the Yawgh. It had a cool art style and an interesting story but it had so many branching paths that the game could only be 10 minutes long. That, and I myself tried to write a couple of simple narrative games with branching paths and player choice, and that was when I realised how difficult making branching narratives really is. Cut Bioware a break here.

 

 

They didn't account for the choices because they never planned to.

 

Andromeda is unfortunately the only route they could take, once they had decided to make a new game. I would have preferred they just moved on and made another game.

[The Dank Warden]

Looking at this tread makes me have Deja Vus, i mean srsly, i've the sensation that we'd already discussed this before... oh wait!, this is a bioware FORUM!

[robertthebard]

Wouldn't it have been better if someone like Jenkins actually did haunt Shepard's nightmares rather than Some Kid?

No. He was a soldier, and worse, a Red Shirt. I knew from the moment I talked to him the very first time on the Normandy that he was going to die. Some of that may have had to do with his name, of course, bonus points if it was Leroy, I don't recall if we ever learn his first name. How does a soldier's death convey the impact of innocent lives lost? When you sign on the dotted line, you know there's a chance that you may be called upon to lay down your life, that hardly conveys the same message as a child who's only guilty of being separated from his parents.

[straykat]

No. He was a soldier, and worse, a Red Shirt. I knew from the moment I talked to him the very first time on the Normandy that he was going to die. Some of that may have had to do with his name, of course, bonus points if it was Leroy, I don't recall if we ever learn his first name. How does a soldier's death convey the impact of innocent lives lost? When you sign on the dotted line, you know there's a chance that you may be called upon to lay down your life, that hardly conveys the same message as a child who's only guilty of being separated from his parents.

 

Yeah, but Leeroy is a survivor. No one kills him.. he kills everyone else.

[Natureguy85]

No. He was a soldier, and worse, a Red Shirt. I knew from the moment I talked to him the very first time on the Normandy that he was going to die. Some of that may have had to do with his name, of course, bonus points if it was Leroy, I don't recall if we ever learn his first name. How does a soldier's death convey the impact of innocent lives lost? When you sign on the dotted line, you know there's a chance that you may be called upon to lay down your life, that hardly conveys the same message as a child who's only guilty of being separated from his parents.

 

Oh, he definitely had "place holder" written all over him, but Shepard actually knew him. This is a character series and having a character Shepard knows (the person left on Virmire would have been better) would be more effective for both the character of Shepard and the player. Some Kid is just some kid. We've never been to Earth as a player and it's never been important other than one silly line about the Collectors targeting Earth. Space and Colonist Shepard may never have been there. We don't have any connection to these people but are suddenly supposed to care.

[AlanC9]

It's not actually possible for any Shepard to have never been to Earth. At the very least, early stages of N7 training happen there.

As for Earth not being important... well, I'd say that having 97+% of the human race living there makes it important, wouldn't you?

[Natureguy85]

It's not actually possible for any Shepard to have never been to Earth. At the very least, early stages of N7 training happen there.

As for Earth not being important... well, I'd say that having 97+% of the human race living there makes it important, wouldn't you?

 

See, that's the problem. You're supposed to care because you, the player are human and live on Earth. But this was supposed to be about saving the entire galaxy. In the first game, Humans were a small part of that bigger community. Then ME2 and 3 went "humans are special" for no reason. It was cool that we got to go to the moon in ME1, but I think it was a deliberate choice to not have Earth be a location or hub. If they wanted to go the Earth is special route, we should have been able to visit it before the Reapers destroy it.

 

I did find the line on the wiki about N7 training being on Earth. Since that's off screen and buried in the codex of the last game, it doesn't do much to establish any connection to the planet.

 

 

As a side note, based on the first game, before Vega makes a comment about the "N7 program," I thought it was just a special forces designation and you went up in number through service, like any other rank. Then they turned it into a bunch of courses that you take. I know such things do exist in the real world so it's not outrageous, but it did change how I viewed the way it worked.

[straykat]

Yeah, well.. I could have used even more Earth or human stuff during the whole game. Kahlee and Jack are kind of like my only chance (and it's great), but it's not even a priority mission. I'm supposed to care about Krogan than the best humanity has to offer. Sorry. I won't.

 

So where you see bias towards humans, I see the opposite. And the only person who seems to give a damn is Sam. She sets up only human centric missons, it seems.

[Natureguy85]

Yeah, well.. I could have used even more Earth or human stuff during the whole game. Kahlee and Jack are kind of like my only chance (and it's great), but it's not even a priority mission. I'm supposed to care about Krogan than the best humanity has to offer. Sorry. I won't.

 

So where you see bias towards humans, I see the opposite. And the only person who seems to give a damn is Sam. She sets up only human centric missons, it seems.

 

In ME2, you work with a human supremacist organization to save human colonists and stop the Collectors from making a human Reaper. In ME3 you're under Alliance orders and the entire game is about getting fleets and resources to take back Earth.

[straykat]

In ME2, you work with a human supremacist organization to save human colonists and stop the Collectors from making a human Reaper. In ME3 you're under Alliance orders and the entire game is about getting fleets and resources to take back Earth.

 

Yeah, but Earth barely plays a part (and then when we got there, it sucked anyways. It's like they put the minimal amount of effort into it). Nor does salvaging humans spread in space matter.. those missions are because of Sam thinking outside the box (Jack, Cerberus scientists, etc). Priority Missions are what was important to the overall experience and feel of the game.

 

There's little to get excited about if you're into the human elements of the story. It's not like it's feature rich and you have to shoot it down to bring it on parity with others.. Simply because Shepard cared about Earth. They are more "galactic heroes" here than they ever were.

[Natureguy85]

Yeah, but Earth barely plays a part (and then when we got there, it sucked anyways. It's like they put the minimal amount of effort into it). Nor does salvaging humans spread in space matter.. those missions are because of Sam thinking outside the box (Jack, Cerberus scientists, etc). Priority Missions are what was important to the overall experience and feel of the game.

 

There's little to get excited about if you're into the human elements of the story. It's not like it's feature rich and you have to shoot it down to bring it on parity with others.. Simply because Shepard cared about Earth. They are more "galactic heroes" here than they ever were.

 

The lack of quality to the writing and missions doesn't mean that wasn't the focus of the story. They had to wrap up the Tuchanka and Genophage arcs but Shepard's involvement was still all about getting fleets for Earth, not about solving them for their own sake.

 

Your second paragraph is the entire problem. All the focus is on Earth and yet they give it no personality.

[straykat]

 

Your second paragraph is the entire problem. All the focus is on Earth and yet they give it no personality.

 

We agree partly agree at least. Just think of it this way... it was merely an emotional line for Shep at the beginning. He/she saw his planet get ravaged. What do you expect? It's apocalyptic. A little emotion can be forgiven. He isn't a machine or perfect (not yet, fortunately). But they adjust mentally to be bigger picture oriented afterwards. I mean, is there any other moment like that? Or is there anything they do that tells you they're truly myopic about just humanity? Their actions speak more than their words.

 

Or perhaps there's a mod out there to remove the line.

[Natureguy85]

We agree partly agree at least. Just think of it this way... it was merely an emotional line for Shep at the beginning. He/she saw his planet get ravaged. What do you expect? It's apocalyptic. A little emotion can be forgiven. He isn't a machine or perfect (not yet, fortunately). But they adjust mentally to be bigger picture oriented afterwards. I mean, is there any other moment like that? Or is there anything they do that tells you they're truly myopic about just humanity? Their actions speak more than their words.

 

Or perhaps there's a mod out there to remove the line.

 

What line?

 

Shepard goes to the Council to get ships for Earth.

The Crucible plans are found on Mars, the Alliance outpost and close to Earth.

Shepard and Udina get mad when the other species won't sacrifice their own worlds to come save Earth.

Shepard goes to the Palavan moon to get the Primarch to get ships for Earth.

He cures  the genophage so that the Krogan help the Turians so the Turians will give ships for Earth.

He goes to the Quarians to get their fleet to help Earth. He can even tell Tali that's why he's there.

The Reapers move the Citadel to Earth. The final mission is on Earth.

 

Even the marketing campaign was "Take Earth back."

[straykat]

What line?

 

Shepard goes to the Council to get ships for Earth.

The Crucible plans are found on Mars, the Alliance outpost and close to Earth.

Shepard and Udina get mad when the other species won't sacrifice their own worlds to come save Earth.

Shepard goes to the Palavan moon to get the Primarch to get ships for Earth.

He cures  the genophage so that the Krogan help the Turians so the Turians will give ships for Earth.

He goes to the Quarians to get their fleet to help Earth. He can even tell Tali that's why he's there.

The Reapers move the Citadel to Earth. The final mission is on Earth.

 

Even the marketing campaign was "Take Earth back."

 

The line at the beginning, in the Council Chambers. This is the main hissy fit I figured you'd be mad at.

 

Everyone is selfish in the beginning..  No one cares about Earth alone except this moment with Shepard. The only reason why it all ends up at Earth is because all of the goals start aligning and there isn't much left but that last effort anyways. The destruction of Thessia was the final straw for the Asari, for example. They didn't join Shepard because of what he says or because Earth is more important. They joined because they're all screwed. Same with Palaven.. Garrus says how there isn't much left. Everyone just finally gathers at the Cerberus station.

[Natureguy85]

The line at the beginning, in the Council Chambers. This is the main hissy fit I figured you'd be mad at.

 

Everyone is selfish in the beginning..  No one cares about Earth alone except this moment with Shepard. The only reason why it all ends up at Earth is because all of the goals start aligning and there isn't much left but that last effort anyways. The destruction of Thessia was the final straw for the Asari, for example. They didn't join Shepard because of what he says or because Earth is more important. They joined because they're all screwed. Same with Palaven.. Garrus says how there isn't much left. Everyone just finally gathers at the Cerberus station.

 

Exactly; the protagonist and his closest friends are concerned with Earth. The Council is supposed to be viewed as the same obstructionist, humans at the kid's table clowns they always have been. "They're a bunch of self-concerned jackasses, Shepard!" And why should they care about Earth in particular? Their own planets are under attack as well. But you're supposed to be mad at them about this, just like Shepard and Udina are.

[straykat]

Exactly; the protagonist and his closest friends are concerned with Earth. The Council is supposed to be viewed as the same obstructionist, humans at the kid's table clowns they always have been. "They're a bunch of self-concerned jackasses, Shepard!" And why should they care about Earth in particular? Their own planets are under attack as well. But you're supposed to be mad at them about this, just like Shepard and Udina are.

 

I get you.

 

I'm just saying it's possible to excuse it, because Shepard is a bit torn up at that moment. I know it's railroading, but take it for what it's worth.

[AlanC9]

See, that's the problem. You're supposed to care because you, the player are human and live on Earth. But this was supposed to be about saving the entire galaxy. In the first game, Humans were a small part of that bigger community.

Not because both the player and the PC are humans?

I never saw why a threat to Earth required us to have actually been to Earth to be psychologically real to the player. It didn't work that way in Star Trek, or Wing Commander.

[fdrty]

They didn't account for the choices because they never planned to.

 

Andromeda is unfortunately the only route they could take, once they had decided to make a new game. I would have preferred they just moved on and made another game.

 

Of course they did not account for your choices to matter for every ME game until the end of time. It is unrealistic to expect that. The people who argue that have probably got no idea what it takes to actually craft such a narrative. I do. It's bloody hard. It's a monumental task just to storyboard the thing, never mind write the entire script.

 

I don't know what you mean by 'I would have preferred they just moved on and made another game'. Aren't they doing exactly that? Making another Mass Effect game? Moving on by going too another galaxy?

 

Unless you mean a game which continues after the end of ME3? Cos, as I said the major conflicts of the game have been solved. You've solved the geth/quarian conflict, the genophage, cerberus, and the reapers. What else is left for them to do in the Milky way? Would you rather spend a game in the remnants of the Milky way, with no mass relays, galactic trade shattered, no enemies left, nothing, just running around on Earth doing cleanup? Does that sound like a better plot for the next Mass Effect game than explorers heading into the unknown? Does that sound like a plot which has more possibilities, both narrative and gameplay?

[straykat]

 

I don't know what you mean by 'I would have preferred they just moved on and made another game'. Aren't they doing exactly that? Making another Mass Effect game? Moving on by going too another galaxy?

 

I mean I was satisfied and done.. I thought. I guess not?  We'll see what this is now.

 

I could have been happy with an entirely different game. Not even sci-fi, let alone Mass Effect.

[Stakrin]

It wouldn't work if every choice mattered.

But my decision on the Krogan, Geth, Rachni, and quarian seem pointless suddenly.

I mean; none of this extinction matters (as much) if there is just another ship of everyone somewhere else.

Of course it's still sad and all. But it's a different decision now.

[fdrty]

I mean I was satisfied and done.. I thought. I guess not?  We'll see what this is now.

 

I could have been happy with an entirely different game. Not even sci-fi, let alone Mass Effect.

 

Fair enough. FWIW I think they're making a ME game too soon after the last one, and if the ME3 ending was better received then they might just leave ME alone for a few years. But, they can't really end it on such a bad note, Mass Effect can and should mean more than the infamous ending.

 

Question - what sort of game would you want them to make next? Sci-fi? Fantasy? Maybe something modern day? Or Post apocalyptic? Or prehistoric, like far cry primal?

[Natureguy85]

Fair enough. FWIW I think they're making a ME game too soon after the last one, and if the ME3 ending was better received then they might just leave ME alone for a few years. But, they can't really end it on such a bad note, Mass Effect can and should mean more than the infamous ending.

Question - what sort of game would you want them to make next? Sci-fi? Fantasy? Maybe something modern day? Or Post apocalyptic? Or prehistoric, like far cry primal?

I want a Mass Effect game like XCOM. A 4x game could be awesome too.

[Natureguy85]

It wouldn't work if every choice mattered.

But my decision on the Krogan, Geth, Rachni, and quarian seem pointless suddenly.

I mean; none of this extinction matters (as much) if there is just another ship of everyone somewhere else.

Of course it's still sad and all. But it's a different decision now.

I hear you. As soon as i heard about the move to Andromeda, I questioned if this was Mass Effect in anything but name.

[straykat]

Fair enough. FWIW I think they're making a ME game too soon after the last one, and if the ME3 ending was better received then they might just leave ME alone for a few years. But, they can't really end it on such a bad note, Mass Effect can and should mean more than the infamous ending.

 

Question - what sort of game would you want them to make next? Sci-fi? Fantasy? Maybe something modern day? Or Post apocalyptic? Or prehistoric, like far cry primal?

 

Maybe another Jade Empire?

 

No, I don't really care. Although I heard there was some other IP in the works, and I heard it was modern. Don't know if that's true. Or urban fantasy.