Haha. I knew it. You were one of these people in the synthesis threads, back in the day right? Almost forgot.
For the umpteenth time, I'll present to you the heretics which were geth infected by a reaper virus. And the zha'til were corrupted by the reapers before they turned against their creators (after living with them in symbiosis).
You're clearly mistaken. Synthesis isn't my preferred ending. And who said anything about heretics? The Quarians and Geth were in conflict centuries before ME1.
And then they became a race of space hermits that watched the world through the pilantiri. My personal canon is that the turians eventually learn about the Leviathan and decide to flash-boil 2181 Despoina's oceans.
We don't even know that. It's second hand information a billion years removed.
You proclaim that every time this subject comes up. And I still haven't figured out if it's simple denial or if you're being willfully obtuse. Either way, that entire conversation with Leviathan is meant to be a literal info dump to fill in and answer questions left by the ending.
They're "useful" as a war asset. Too bad the game doesn't tell us much about what happens to them later.
I wouldn't say that. If they were to be useful, let Shepard have one or two those orbs to use especially when Harbinger shows up so Leviathan can do its mind thing. Harbinger's eyes flicker a couple of times before he falls over. Shepard goes up the beam unharmed.
Unfortunately that can't happen since Leviathan is a dlc and not part of the main game.
I wouldn't say that. If they were to be useful, let Shepard have one or two those orbs to use especially when Harbinger shows up so Leviathan can do its mind thing. Harbinger's eyes flicker a couple of times before he falls over. Shepard goes up the beam unharmed.
Well, that's the problem with these sorts of things being add-on content.
I wouldn't say that. If they were to be useful, let Shepard have one or two those orbs to use especially when Harbinger shows up so Leviathan can do its mind thing. Harbinger's eyes flicker a couple of times before he falls over. Shepard goes up the beam unharmed.
Unfortunately that can't happen since Leviathan is a dlc and not part of the main game.
That'd be cool, for sure. But doubt it'd change the outcome with the Citadel blowing up and all.
That'd be cool, for sure. But doubt it'd change the outcome with the Citadel blowing up and all.
Perhaps, but at least an unharmed Shepard could shoot the power conduit from far off with a Mattock rather than hobbling towards it with a stupid Carnifex.
Perhaps, but at least an unharmed Shepard could shoot the power conduit from far off with a Mattock rather than hobbling towards it with a stupid Carnifex.
That should've happened regardless. There was no reason to have Shepard walk towards the tube while firing at it.
You proclaim that every time this subject comes up. And I still haven't figured out if it's simple denial or if you're being willfully obtuse. Either way, that entire conversation with Leviathan is meant to be a literal info dump to fill in and answer questions left by the ending.
You're clearly mistaken. Synthesis isn't my preferred ending. And who said anything about heretics? The Quarians and Geth were in conflict centuries before ME1.
Ghehe. Maybe synthesis was not your thing, but your were clearly present there. The rhetoric didn't change, though,
Like always you turn stuff upside down to safe your posts. You were telling me that the geth rebelled. Well, they did not. Here is why.
The geth were defending themselves after the quarians were trying to shut them down, because they showed sapient behavior. It resulted in the Morning War, where in the end the geth did not exterminate the quarians, but instead isolated themselves beyond the Perseus Veil for the next three centuries.
The geth we see in ME1 were some geth, which were infected by a reaper virus. These geth were known as the heretics and split off from the other geth. And those are the ones we fought. The other (non-heretic) geth, were bothered by that. They started to investigate the reaper situation, organics and eventually found Shepard. In the mean-time they preserved the quarian's graves and cleared their home planet, without occupying it.
I wouldn't say that. If they were to be useful, let Shepard have one or two those orbs to use especially when Harbinger shows up so Leviathan can do its mind thing. Harbinger's eyes flicker a couple of times before he falls over. Shepard goes up the beam unharmed.
Unfortunately that can't happen since Leviathan is a dlc and not part of the main game.
It could be included, just as the conversation about the leviathans with the Intelligence was possible. So, there is no technical limitation. And yes, unfortunately, something like that didn't happen, because it would not make sense to those without the DLC.
Whatever deep point they intended with synthetic and organic conflict got lost in the mess that is the Reapers. They're the worst synthetics ever... yet they want me to fear other synthetics. All of which you could build bridges with. Except for the Heretic Geth (which, again, is the Reapers' fault).
The fact that it doesn't see the irony itself makes me think it's not even a very intelligent AI. Just a powerful one.
It's like a serial killer telling me there's a guy jacking a car down the street. Like I care.
I have to disagree. There's nothing natural about them.
I generally like giving room for different views though. And wouldn't persuade someone much, if they're set on Refuse. But I think that's mostly a moral and principled choice. It has nothing to do with letting nature take it's course. They just don't want to play any of the Reaper's (or Bioware's) games at this point. I can understand that.
On a philosophical level - what defines what we consider to be "natural." - What or who created it? God? Science? Biological accident? The duration it has existed? So, after untold millennia... might not the Reapers be as much a part of the "natural" order of the Galaxy as Humans... which have been in existence for a far shorter period of time? Some religions have essentially always believed in Reapers that ultimately harvest each of us when we die? Does that perhaps make part of the "natural order?"
I'm not looking for an actual answer here... I'm saying that how one feels about the synthesis ending could, in part, depend on how the individual answers those questions in their own mind.
All the interpretations of the endings are valid to those who make those interpretations.
On a philosophical level - what defines what we consider to be "natural." - What or who created it? God? Science? Biological accident? The duration it has existed? So, after untold millennia... might not the Reapers be as much a part of the "natural" order of the Galaxy as Humans... which have been in existence for a far shorter period of time?
I'm not looking for an actual answer here... How one feels about the synthesis ending could, in part, depend though on how the individual answers those questions in their own mind.
All the interpretations of the endings are valid to those who make those interpretations.
The whole point of the word "synthetic" should say enough.
They were created by Leviathan..and firstly, to fit Leviathan's needs. They aren't some natural occurrence or force of nature. No more than a screwdriver is. Or the Printing Press. I don't even know why you want to argue that. That isn't to say synthetics (or anything else unnatural) should always be discarded or something though. That's a whole other issue to me. The more important thing is they're not even useful. They want to kill me.
I didn't ask for apology, and I don't see why I should give one, I merely claimed that your overall attitude seems to be less about pure analysis of the facts, and more about finding interpretations that support what is probably the author's intent, while ignoring the fact that the story itself has implications which are completely different.
Anyway, this was my original post that didn't force you to believe anything and merely pointed a flaw:
And here you see fit to inform me that you can believe whatever you want, despite me never claiming otherwise.
You transformed an argument about the interpretation of a story, into a passionate rant about your "rights" and proceeded to white knight Bioware against all the meanies, while going into the entirely different topic of the continuation to ME:A.
So, I have no idea what your point was. And since this is rather pointless, I'll just wish you good luck.
My interest was in discussing the Cayalyst and possible interpretations, not go into another endless fight about Bioware and the mean fans,
and who threw the first stone.
I realize you didn't ask for an apology... rather you told me that I was being "apologetic." I take offense at that... so I was asking you for an apology. I am not an apologist for Bioware or any particular religion or philosophy... and had clearly stated that I was not advocating for any particular ending. Of course, my thinking that you owe me an apology does not obligate you to think you have to give me one... and from what you've said, I really don't expect it.
The topic of this thread states quite clearly that the OP thinks "it's BS" that his/her decisions are not continuing on in ME:A... so, I don't think I'm the one off topic by "going into the entirely different topic of the continuation of ME:A."
Authors do have the right to write whatever they like under their trademarked monikers. That's just a fact. If you want to interpret that statement as "white knighting" go ahead. I'm not. The quality of their writing in the past has LOTS of flaws and I'm not defending their writing in the least... that still doesn't deny them of their rights.
The whole point of the word "synthetic" should say enough.
They were created by Leviathan..and firstly, to fit Leviathan's needs. They aren't some natural occurrence or force of nature. No more than a screwdriver is. Or the Printing Press. I don't even know why you want to argue that. That isn't to say synthetics (or anything else unnatural) should always be discarded or something though. That's a whole other issue to me. The more important thing is they're not even useful. They want to kill me.
All I'm trying to do is to get people to recognize that IT IS POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO LEGITIMATELY INTERPRET THE ENDINGS DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU DO. If you interpret Reapers as being "unnatural" that's perfectly valid. If someone else interprets them as being "natural" (because they define "natural" using different criteria than you), they will possibly interpret that ending differently than you. Rather than acknowledging my actual point - you're now flipping the discussion towards trying to convince me that Reapers are unnatural. The reality is... you don't even really know what I BELIEVE in that aspect because I haven't told you. What I've told you is that I believe it is possible for people to believe either position.
My question is - Why is it not OK with you that other people can believe that Reapers are natural? They're playing their own game... what ending they select has no bearing on your selection.
All I'm trying to do is to get people to recognize that IT IS POSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO LEGITIMATELY INTERPRET THE ENDINGS DIFFERENTLY THAN YOU DO. If you interpret Reapers as being "unnatural" that's perfectly valid. If someone else interprets them as being "natural" (because they define "natural" using different criteria than you), they will possibly interpret that ending differently than you. Rather than acknowledging my actual point - you're now flipping the discussion towards trying to convince me that Reapers are unnatural. The reality is... you don't even really know what I BELIEVE in that aspect because I haven't told you. What I've told you is that I believe it is possible for people to believe either position.
My question is - Why is it not OK with you that other people can believe that Reapers are natural? They're playing their own game... what ending they select has no bearing on your selection.
It's not legitimate. It's only legitimate to choose anything. I've never tried stopping anyone from that (even if I could). But don't completely redefine words and concepts to try to make them something they're not. These ME choices have enough validity on their own, without that.
Here i thought I was fair for letting people play the game they want. But now there's an extra requirement that wants me to think synthetics are a natural occurrence. I'll accept that if you show me a beach that constructed a sand castle by itself.
Ghehe. Maybe synthesis was not your thing, but your were clearly present there. The rhetoric didn't change, though
Doubtful. More than likely there's just other people that simply see it the same way.
Like always you turn stuff upside down to safe your posts.
" Like always" 
(you don't know me, but sure, whatever makes you happy, you go ahead and believe that)
The geth were defending themselves after the quarians were trying to shut them down, because they showed sapient behavior. It resulted in the Morning War, where in the end the geth did not exterminate the quarians, but instead isolated themselves beyond the Perseus Veil for the next three centuries.
And now you're cherry picking and falsely interpretting in a way that benefits your argument. So I said "rebel"....whoopdi doo. Point is they were in conflict. The organic/synthetic conflict. The Leviathan and Catalyst never specify who fires the first shot in any particular cycle, just that these two parties will always be conflicted by one another. Whether it's outright betrayal, or "rebelling" against ones oppressor (i.e. the Morning War), it happens like clockwork. Thanks to the holos in Rannoch we do know the Quarians fired first in this case, but the other cycles are a mystery.
Sure. They defended themselves. Which means they were rebelling against their oppressors.
The geth we see in ME1 were some geth, which were infected by a reaper virus. These geth were known as the heretics and split off from the other geth. And those are the ones we fought. The other (non-heretic) geth, were bothered by that. They started to investigate the reaper situation, organics and eventually found Shepard. In the mean-time they preserved the quarian's graves and cleared their home planet, without occupying it.
you're not telling us anything we don't know.
My personal canon is that the turians eventually learn about the Leviathan and decide to flash-boil 2181 Despoina's oceans.
It's not legitimate. It's only legitimate to choose anything. I've never tried stopping anyone from that (even if I could). But don't completely redefine words and concepts to try to make them something they're not. These ME choices have enough validity on their own, without that.
Here i thought I was fair for letting people play the game they want. But now there's an extra requirement that wants me to think synthetics are a natural occurrence. I'll accept that if you show me a beach that constructed a sand castle by itself.
One dictionary definition of "natural" -
existing in or caused by nature; not made or caused by humankind:
Since, according to the lore, the Reapers existed long before humankind... how is it that they were not existing in nature? ... and they certainly were not made by humankind nor were they caused by humankind. As I mentioned, Bioware didn't even create the idea of Reapers IRL... they merely put a mechanical/synthetic face on them. Religions have believed in Reapers for centuries.
Again - My question, reworded - Why do you see the interpretations of others of the endings as not even possibly being legitimate if they differ from your own? I'm not even suggesting that your interpretation isn't legitimate. In fact, I'm saying it is... along with the other interpretation on an equal basis. There is no requirement on you to "think synthetics are natural occurrences" in order to allow others the "right" to believe for themselves that Reapers might be natural occurrences.
Well, you can make a case that technologies are a natural occurrence too, since intelligent, technological life is a common natural occurrence in the MEU. Everybody in a Civilization game invents writing and firearms if they last long enough, for instance. Sooner or later someone's going to come up with the tech.Here i thought I was fair for letting people play the game they want. But now there's an extra requirement that wants me to think synthetics are a natural occurrence. I'll accept that if you show me a beach that constructed a sand castle by itself.
Since, according to the lore, the Reapers existed long before humankind... how is it that they were not existing in nature? ... and they certainly were not made by humankind nor were they caused by humankind.
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