Well, you can make a case that technologies are a natural occurrence too, since intelligent, technological life is a common natural occurrence in the MEU. Everybody in a Civilization game invents writing and firearms if they last long enough, for instance. Sooner or later someone's going to come up with the tech.
Doesn't work for Reapers, though, since they are a particular application of technology.
Not as a species but as robotic intelligences. Every organic, in time, creates an AI intelligence and eventually put said intelligence into robotic forms which resemble the creators. In the case of the Reapers, they're naturally the robotic intelligences of the Leviathan.
And now you're cherry picking and falsely interpretting in a way that benefits your argument. So I said "rebel"....whoopdi doo. Point is they were in conflict. The organic/synthetic conflict. The Leviathan and Catalyst never specify who fires the first shot in any particular cycle, just that these two parties will always be conflicted by one another. Whether it's outright betrayal, or "rebelling" against ones oppressor (i.e. the Morning War), it happens like clockwork. Thanks to the holos in Rannoch we do know the Quarians fired first in this case, but the other cycles are a mystery.
No matter what the actual situation is, you will turn it around, to make sure that the Intelligence's logic is correct. And of course from the the other cycle we know that the zha'til didn't rebel either. So, we know about two cycles. In one the synthetics had to defend themselves to prevent extermination and in the other the synthetics who lived in symbiosis with their organic hosts were corrupted by the reapers.
you're not telling us anything we don't know.
But this was about the heretics, remember? And you didn't talk about those, didn't you? Why did you want to avoid that? So, I had to remind you that this a group of synthetics (geth, called heretics by other geth) were yet again corrupted by the reapers. And that is a third situation, in which the synthetics were not the cause of the conflict.
But I'm absolutely sure that you find all of the above evidence that the Intelligence was right (that too happens like clockwork), despite the fact that in none of these cases the synthetics were the problem and no other conflicts are known.
The point is every single instance we have seen of synthetic life trying to exterminate organics, Every last one of them, has been instigated by the Reapers themselves.
The Reapers are a self-fulfilling prophecy i every sense of the word. They even interfere with the development of the galaxy in ways that "justify" their existence.
AngryFrozenWater, prosthetic soul et UpUpAway aiment ceci
The point is every single instance we have seen of synthetic life trying to exterminate organics, Every last one of them, has been instigated by the Reapers themselves.
The Reapers are a self-fulfilling prophecy i every sense of the word. They even interfere with the development of the galaxy in ways that "justify" their existence.
There's the angry casino AI in Mass Effect 1, and whatever the Leviathans saw happen enough so they saw it as a problem.
'Course, creating the Catalyst with "This is the problem, fix it" may not have been ideal. But I think if there's one thing everyone can agree on, it's that the Leviathans are awful programmers.
There's the angry casino AI in Mass Effect 1, and whatever the Leviathans saw happen enough so they saw it as a problem.
'Course, creating the Catalyst with "This is the problem, fix it" may not have been ideal. But I think if there's one thing everyone can agree on, it's that the Leviathans are awful programmers.
The casino AI wasn't trying to kill people, it was trying to get free and join the geth, and was willing to kill to do so.
The Leviathan "problem" is second or third hand information at best.
Not as a species but as robotic intelligences. Every organic, in time, creates an AI intelligence and eventually put said intelligence into robotic forms which resemble the creators. In the case of the Reapers, they're naturally the robotic intelligences of the Leviathan.
Though the Reapers are technically not purely synthetic themselves. It's canon that they incorporate organic material and organic minds -- presumably in an Indoctrinated state to keep them Reaping.a
"Humankind" means what, there? Just humans? Human-invented technologies are not natural, but asari-invented technologies are?
I believe someone could possibly believe that and make an ending selection while holding that belief or use such a belief to interpret the various endings in a personal way... and regardless of whether they did or did not, their interpretation of the ending would still be "legitimate."
I believe Bioware wrote the endings so that people could interpret them in many different ways. Using other dialogues and discussions in the game, they pointed to various positions on those exact issues. For example, two discussions that occur in ME3: 1) The one between Dr. Chakwas/Michel and Engineer Adams discussing the "nature" of life; and 2) The one between Javik and EDI discussion whether synthetics could evolve. They also incorporated some changes into the various endings themselves depending on what stances the player took on some issues throughout the game. For example, I've noticed that Shepard's description of the nature of his/her purpose and immortality in the EC after selecting the Control ending changes depending on if you have a largely Paragon Shepard or a largely Renegade one. The slides change depending on your EMS. I've also noticed that the Catalyst will tell some Shepard's that, if Shepard selects control, he/she will "no longer be organic" and sometimes the Catalyst skips that bit entirely (implying that particular Shepard would not be made inorganic but that his/her corporeal form would merely be dissolved). Sometimes the differences are quite subtle, but they are there. All of which might lead people to make different personal interpretations about what those endings signify to themselves.
(I'm not saying this in defense of Bioware's writing quality... as I said, I believe there are numerable "flaws" in the endings (and throughout all three games)... so please don't accuse me of being some sort of apologist for Bioware, OK?).
ETA for quick comparison - Here are the two different Control speeches I'm referring to:
Spoiler
CONTROL (with a Paragon Shepard):
Shepard: Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them. And only now do I understand the full extent of his sacrifice. Through his death, I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed. They guide me now, give me reason, direction. Just as he gave direction to the ones who followed him, the ones who helped him achieve his purpose. Now my purpose. To give the many hope for a future. To ensure that all have a voice in their future. The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater. There is power in control, there is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy. I will rebuild what the many have lost. I will create a future with limitless possibilities. I will protect and sustain. I will act as guardian for the many. And throughout it all, I will never forget. I will remember the ones who sacrificed themselves so that the many could survive. And I will watch over the ones who live on. Those who carry the memory of the man I once was. The man who gave up his life to become the one who could save the many.
Spoiler
CONTROL (with a Renegade Shepard)
Shepard: Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them. And only now do I comprehend the full potential of his decision. Through his death, I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed. They guide me now, give me reason, direction. Just as he gave direction to the ones who followed him, the ones who helped him achieve his purpose. Now my purpose. To right the wrongs of the past. To provide a voice for those too weak to speak for themselves. The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater. There is power in control, there is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy. I will restore what the many have fought for. I will lead an army that no one will dare oppose. I will protect, defend. I will destroy those who threaten the future of the many. And throughout it all, I will never forget. I will remember the ones who fought so the many could survive. And I will keep a watchful eye over the ones who live on. Those who carry the memory of the man I once was. The man who fought to become the one who could lead the many.
Though the Reapers are technically not purely synthetic themselves. It's canon that they incorporate organic material and organic minds -- presumably in an Indoctrinated state to keep them Reaping.a
That's probably the most annoying part of the Reaper lore is where is this organic material stored? Nothing that i recall seeing from either Sovereign, it's remains or the insides of one in ME2 displayed a lick of soft-tissue. I know this is when the jazz hands appear but it's completely relevant as, even if say the organic materials are needed for completion, they're still primarily synthetic. Though i will replace "robotic" with "synthetic" in what i said, since this is more accurate.
Pretty easy, conceptually. The great thing about mass effect weaponry is effectively unlimited range, as long as you don't mind waiting a while for the target to be destroyed.
Oh that's alright. They might be able to EMP Reapers and starships, but not a 50km chunk of inert rock traveling at .99c.
And idiotic comments like "there was no mistake, it still serves it's purpose" makes me wonder just how seriously I am supposed to take them
I mean yeah they are an info dump. But these guys are so stupid I can't help but wonder how they managed to conquer a single world. One wonders how often the Leviathans might have accidentally wiped out their own servants and blamed "machines" to cover their own incompetence. After all THEY couldn't possibly have screwed anything up ...
You're supposed to take it as gospel. The fact it's totally stupid is besides the point. Like the Cipher. The idea plant mulch has a genetic memory is ridiculous. But the writers play it straight.
You're supposed to take it as gospel. The fact it's totally stupid is besides the point. Like the Cipher. The idea plant mulch has a genetic memory is ridiculous. But the writers play it straight.
You're right but it is harder in this context. The Cipher was just average sci-fi mumbo jumbo. Leviathan is an obvious patch on the narrative.
You're supposed to take it as gospel. The fact it's totally stupid is besides the point. Like the Cipher. The idea plant mulch has a genetic memory is ridiculous. But the writers play it straight.
To the detriment of, well, everyone and everything involved in the story.
Well, after the ME2 reveal about Reaper creation, it was pretty obvious that the mumbo-jumbo was going to be thick.
The baby Reaper scene in ME2 was a truly embarrassing moment for the game and the series in general. But I kinda hoped it would be a low point, not a starting point for a steeper descent
No matter what the actual situation is, you will turn it around, to make sure that the Intelligence's logic is correct.
Not necessarily. You just vehemently believe that it is incorrect in every single way.
And of course from the the other cycle we know that the zha'til didn't rebel either.
You know what Javik told you.
the synthetics had to defend themselves to prevent extermination
Prime example of synthetics coming into conflict with organics.
But this was about the heretics, remember?
You're the one that brought them up. You're the only one talking about them. I'm well aware of what and who they are.
And that is a third situation, in which the synthetics were not the cause of the conflict.
Nobody said they were the cause of the conflict
despite the fact that in none of these cases the synthetics were the problem and no other conflicts are known.
Nobody said they were the problem. Plenty of conflicts are known. Just as you go by what Javik told you of the Zha'til, one could go by what both the Intelligence and Leviathan tell us of a time before the Reapers. A time when civilizations would create ai and destroy themselves shortly afterwards. Countless times. You just refuse to recognize this as "known" because it comes from the Intelligence and its creator, as well as the fact that you can't label the participants (e.g. "geth" and "zha'til")
But I'm absolutely sure that you find all of the above evidence that the Intelligence was right (that too happens like clockwork)
Your temper acting up when you disagree with someone, now that's clockwork.
Nobody said they were the problem. Plenty of conflicts are known. Just as you go by what Javik told you of the Zha'til, one could go by what both the Intelligence and Leviathan tell us of a time before the Reapers. A time when civilizations would create ai and destroy themselves shortly afterwards. Countless times. You just refuse to recognize this as "known" because it comes from the Intelligence and its creator, as well as the fact that you can't label the participants (e.g. "geth" and "zha'til")
If there is supposed to be a synthetic/organic conflict that is inevitable in every cycle then it makes sense to check that "fact". So far no in-game evidence has been found. That simply means that it is not inevitable. That's all there is to it.
Now there is something going on here about closing forums and some such, which is worth my time. In the meantime, feel free to continue, but I may not respond. Toodles.
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