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I am really curious about how they will explain the Arks.


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#101
shodiswe

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A super relay would mean the Reapers set up that, which means you'd have to explain why the Reapers aren't in Andromeda.

 

I think the best route is to simply claim salvaged tech from Sovereign. We know Reapers can travel insanely long distances without the need for discharge.

 

In either case, experimental tech is going to play into it at some point almost guaranteed. Assuming they explain it rather than "They exist. They work. Deal with it".

 

The Leviathans could have built the "Superrelay" the Reapers and catalyst was using Leviathan tech.

 

Also, yes, I think salvaging Sovereign should have provided some interesting discoveries, Shepard only learned about the weaponry that the Turians reverse engineered there was a lot more. Maybe pieces of the drivecore enhanced future drivecores and provided soem breakthroughs for The Ark project.

 

We also know the Citadel and other large objects can disscharge witohut the use of a planet or it's magnetic fields, by radiating the energybuildup. In an Ark that would be essential, in a ship travelign from oen planet to another far less so. Most ships built were built to travel within the galaxy and it was probably faster and easier to disscharge at a planet than radiate in space.

 

It was a design used because it was cheap and made sense given their needs. That doesn't mean they are incapable of building a different type of ship with already existing tech used on spacestations and the Citadel.

 

It's a big project though, that's all.



#102
grumpymooselion

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Yeah, we discussed a lot of these codex entries back in the old Ark theory threads. Honestly, I hope Bioware read those discussions, because people really did come up with some creative ideas around them.

I think all of the problems have pretty much been solved now. Whether or not Bioware utilizes something as clever is another story, as I'm almost positive they will just hand wave it away.

1) Drive discharge - the codex says the Citadel and other large "deep space stations" somehow utilize drive discharge facilities that don't require a planets magnetic field or direct grounding. The Arks could use something similar. The Reapers also seemingly don't discharge, and although the timeline makes it nigh impossible that they are using Reaper tech to do it, it is just another example about how the lore doesn't forbid FTL without discharge in a planet.

2) Fuel - this first seemed like an insurmountable problem, but it actually isn't. See, here is how FTL in mass effect actually works: Electricity is run through element zero, which creates a mass effect envelope and lowers the mass of the ship. Then, a fuel source (antimatter, fusion, etc) is used with conventional engines to accelerate the ship to FTL speeds (faster than light compared to the speed of light in a vacuum, still slower than light in the mass effect envelope). The ship accelerates halfway, then turns around and decelerates the other half. Why? Because mathematically this is actually the most efficient and fastest way to travel in space, and it is exactly how we would do it in real life with sublight travel too, if we had engines that could actually accelerate that long.

But here's the thing, you don't actually need to accelerate that much. That's just how you speed the voyage up. All you need is a source of energy to apply a continual current to the eezo and an initial acceleration at the start of the journey and a deceleration at the end, with a constant velocity in between. Thanks to Isaac Newton, you'd keep going at that velocity until you decelerated or until the mass effect field collapses which catastrophically snaps the ship back into a normal velocity, per the codex, killing everyone on board.

This is basically "FTL coasting", it is 100% allowed by the lore and it would allow a voyage to Andromeda still in a comparatively short time, though probably over a millennia compared to 570 years. The actual time would depend on the final velocity reached. The best part of this is that you only need "fuel" to supply the current and initial acceleration and final deceleration. This is still substantial, but not insurmountable compared to a trip where you use fuel to continually accelerate halfway and decelerate halfway.

3) Construction - this could be addressed in any number of ways. Personally, I think the most brilliant idea one of us came up with was what Han Shot First came up with:

The Reaper Wars was not the first time the galaxy faced extinction. The Rachni Wars were nearly equally as apocalyptic. For reasons explained in the codex/lore and unnecessary to rehash, it was basically the same scale and magnitude of the Reaper War, but drawn out over centuries instead of months. Still, the end result was that the Citadel species were facing extinction. If the Asari and Salarians built these ships during the Rachni War to flee the galaxy if the Krogan failed, and then mothballed them at the end, it would absolutely provide an out for the construction timeframe and the lack of believability.

 

Most everything here I can see except the Rachni war bit.  It would, in my mind, make more sense that the Ark ships weren't of any species' current design, but remnants from another cycle. Whether that would mean the ships themselves, or remnants of ships that were lost/destroyed through whatever means, it wouldn't matter much, though I'd find it very questionable if they found fully working ships.

 

The size of the things is questionable, but with the remnants of the Reaper and the weapon that destroyed, I'm on board witht he idea that some places of the galaxy, where you don't typically travel to or through could house long lost secrets. Essentially it would come to the idea that one or several cycles decided that they couldn't beat the Reapers, and tried to escape, but ultimately this endeavor failed/was lost.

 

Repairing such things, or building them from plans, still seems a vast and unlikely task, however. I couldn't see it involving any normal military or government body without it being known by an entity like the Shadow Broker. The N7 stuff showing up seems to suggest this line of thinking just isn't likely, because it would seem more likely this organization was operating in areas of the galaxy that people don't go to or through, speaking of how they tried to chart FTL paths, for example, there are places you just don't go. So finding something like this in such areas, and building up such areas, and just not leaving them?

 

Of course this would mean they were repairing or building such tech with no intention of telling anyone else, and it may be questionable whether they were doing it because of the Reapers, or not, depending on the information they had.

 

It all seems very unlikely though, but it's the sort of stuff I'd come up with if I were trying to force the concept into something it probably didn't fit.

 

Still, if I were to go the hand wave route I'd abandon Mass Effect technology entirely, and go for something more exotic, while making every member on the Ark ships part of a isolationist shadow organization. The technical and plot details would still be very unlikely, however, and I'm just not sure any of it could make sense no matter how hard I tried. Hence why I couldn't justify it as anything more than hand waving with, basically, "Space Magic."

 

I suppose you could go another way and say the ships weren't made in our Galaxy at all, and that the people on them simply hopped on for the return trip. You could pull a bit of a Rendezvous with Rama sort of deal where the people on the ship are samples along for the ride, more than anything, along with an array of other samples from other stops. Such an idea seems completely contrary to the concept of Andromeda, however. So I suppose if it were from the outside then you'd have to admit that the species of this galaxy hijacked it. Going the easy route those on board are dead, and those that found it figured out that there was some stasis issue that they've now solved.

 

The hard route is that they found them and killed their occupants, of course.

 

Then there's the idea of a super relay, that brings about its own plot problems, with the Reapers specifically . . . meh.

 

None of it really fits for me.


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#103
Iakus

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Given the past record, I think the explanation will be something on the line of "it just happened, deal with it", along with some retcons and technobabble to further justify it.

"Resources"



#104
Iakus

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What are you going on about? I haven't personally read her stuff but a quick google search shows she is described as a speculative fiction writer in the fantasy genre. Reading descriptions of her books back that up. That is a very close fit to science fiction.

 

Edit : In fact she has specifically written science fiction novels before ME: Initiation...

The Fifth Season is a science fiction fantasy novel by N. K. Jemisin.[1][2] The Fifth Season takes place on a planet with a single supercontinent. Every few centuries, its inhabitants endure what they call a "fifth season" of catastrophic climate change.[3] The New York Times review stated "'The Fifth Season' invites us to imagine a dismantling of the earth in both the literal and the metaphorical sense, and suggests the possibility of a richer and more fundamental escape. The end of the world becomes a triumph when the world is monstrous, even if what lies beyond is difficult to conceive for those who are trapped inside it."[4] This is the first part of The Broken Earth Trilogy.

I'm reading The Fifth Season now.  It's well-written, but man some of the subject matter is really dark  :(

 

It definitely has more of a fantasy feel than sf though.



#105
AngryFrozenWater

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Here ist something I postet some days ago in another thread:

Sir, please quit using coloring text. It makes it very hard to read. I initially didn't read it at all, because of that. Apparently I've now read it, because my eye caught the word geth by accident. ;)

 

I wish something like what you wrote was true. There's a problem with it, though. I am a geth fan, but I am not able to find a credible motivation for such a plan. I could not find any in-game evidence for them having these intentions. And that is required, whether Shepard unites/favors the geth or not.

 

Edit: The geth consciously decided not to exterminate the quarians after the Morning War (for reasons they barely understood themselves), but that's hardly a motivation to save the galaxy's other sapient organic species.



#106
QueenofPixals

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I just can't make myself care about the minutia of Pretend Lore for a Pretend Universe which already uses Pretend Science (Mass Effect Drives - Biotics).  Its a freaking game not a homework assignment.  I swear if game nerds spend as much time thinking about real science in the real universe as they do the fake science in pretend universes we would have a colony on Mars already. 


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#107
Iakus

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I just can't make myself care about the minutia of Pretend Lore for a Pretend Universe which already uses Pretend Science (Mass Effect Drives - Biotics).  Its a freaking game not a homework assignment.  I swear if game nerds spend as much time thinking about real science in the real universe as they do the fake science in pretend universes we would have a colony on Mars already. 

Then just kick back and enjoy pwning aliens in the face and let us enjoy the actual story


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#108
KaiserShep

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I just can't make myself care about the minutia of Pretend Lore for a Pretend Universe which already uses Pretend Science (Mass Effect Drives - Biotics).  Its a freaking game not a homework assignment.  I swear if game nerds spend as much time thinking about real science in the real universe as they do the fake science in pretend universes we would have a colony on Mars already. 

 

 

What's the point of joining a forum specifically made for this Pretend Universe with Pretend Lore if not to talk about it?


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#109
Oldren Shepard

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"dangerous areas of space"  that planet is located in tne Terminus Systems, which is a place where the council has no authority if they are kidnapped
 
and for the FTL and the distance
 
I get the link here, a good summary
 
 
Travel SpeedsEdit
The exact FTL speeds at which starships of the modern galaxy travel are unknown. It is noted, however, that Reapers are believed to be capable of traveling nearly 30 light-years (283,821,914,177,424,000 meters) within a 24-hour period, and that this rate is roughly twice what Citadel starships are capable of traveling. This equates Reaper FTL capabilities to around 10,958 times the speed of light.
 
In comparison, by 2165, human starships are known to be capable of traveling at least fifty times faster the speed of light (14,989,622,900 meters per second).
 
With the reapers  is like "300" years or so and with the common FTL is like "600" years something like that.


#110
robertthebard

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Hardly, the game never makes references to the Rachni Wars being of apocalyptic proptions, especially in the face of the Reapers' onslaught. This would be the difference between WW2 and an Alien invasion of earth.


Actually, it kind of does, in ME 3 when you first meet with all the diplomats and initially discuss curing the genophage. W/out the Salarians raising the Krogan, it likely would have been apocalyptic. It's conceivable that they did indeed start that process, just in case.

#111
QueenofPixals

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What's the point of joining a forum specifically made for this Pretend Universe with Pretend Lore if not to talk about it?

 

 

There is talking about it and then there is obsessing about it.  All you have to do is read this posting and the comments to realize that some folks take it personally  that Bioware might make some changes in how the "science" works.  Once upon a time I was an English major and I can I micro analyze a text all day.  But guess what,  the science is never going to hang together because it doesn't exist.  There will inevitably be hand waving to smoosh it all together in a way that carries the plot and the game play forward.  If you want real science read a text.  If you want a good story there is concept called "suspension of disbelief"  some folks here need to review the concept. 



#112
Tolgron

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What's so wrong about wanting a setting that's internally consistent, and doesn't constantly throw established rules out just because the writer in question was too lazy to actually work out a solution to a given problem? I fail to see how a desire for good writing is such a terrible thing to ask for. Furthermore, we still enjoy the setting. That's why we talk about it. We like to try and work out, using the clues given to us by related sources, how problems like this might work given what we know of the universe it exists in.

 

That's not obsessing. That's showing enthusiasm.


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#113
Gothfather

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I was replaying Mass Effect 3 today and decided to read some Codex entries. Two of them caught my attention: 'Ilos' and 'FTL Drives'.

About the first, it mentioned how universities often try to organize expeditions to charter a course to Ilos using conventional FTL travel, but they always give up on planning stages because of the dangers and difficulties of the travel. It would take years or decades and pass through dangerous areas of space. I found that to be an interesting example of how limited FTL technology is. Sure, we are talking about universities here, but the challenge of travelling to Ilos is also much smaller than travelling to another galaxy! 

And the second reminded me a bit of the mechanics of FTL travel in Mass Effect and reinforced my belief that there is absolute no one in the Milk Way capable of building the Arks. Just an passage from the codex: "very massive ships or very high speeds are prohibitively expensive".

Ark ships would need a lot of BOTH. Not to mention solving other problems long FTL travels would have.

Even if the Milk Way had the knowledge to build the Arks, which I don't believe they do, they certainly don't have the money. The Asari which are the richest race of the galaxy couldn't even keep up with the destruction of the Destiny Ascension and gave up their share of military responsabilities to the Turians. 

How can anyone then build multiple ships that are orders of magnitude more expansive than any single dreadnought? And in secrecy, mind you. It doesn't compute!

In those lines I look foward to see if they are just going to ignore that and say "oh, it could be done, trust me" or come up with a explanation that do not go against the logic established in the trilogy. What do you think? Am I overestimating how hard is to build ark ships capable of traveling the distance between galaxies?

 

WOW talk about a lot of BS in your post.

 

FTL isn't one technology. Mass effect drives are only one form of travel possible science fiction is FILLED with the taking a real world theory with a real world mathematical foundation to said theory and saying "Let's assume this is true." Wormholes are a REAL world theory with a REAL world basis in mathematics and this is an FTL technology that is independent of the Mass effect technology base. It is not unreasonable to think a theory that exists TODAY could be made viable 200 years from now. And given the trailer we saw last year with a tunnel like effect to travel through space a wormhole fits. Is this they way we got to Andromeda? No idea.

 

There is ZERO evidence that the Arks cost more than a dreadnought you can't provide a single fact to even compare the two it is all you just talking out of your ar$e with zero facts or evidence to make this claim. You just arbitrarily decided with no basis to make this choice that an ARK will cost more than a dreadnought. Do we even have a cost for a dreadnought in the series? I don't think so you you don't even have any facts for your imaginary yard stick. And no it isn't LOGICAL to make the claim because you have no basis to make such a claim. We don't have a scale of the ships, we don't know their capabilities and we don't know what systems they have so again you are just making BS up to fill your thinly veiled agenda.

 

Do even know what prohibitively expensive means? Because you saying they can't be made because of that statement tells me you have no fraking clue what that phrase means. Or rather you are being deliberately obtuse so as to use it in you blatantly biased agenda driven post. prohibitively expensive means the cost benefit ratio currently isn't worth doing. Getting oil out of the Alberta tar sands was prohibitively expensive in the 70's and 80's but that didn't stop people from making PROTOTYPE refineries and experimenting in the process until today it is one of the world's major sources of oil. This is a clear example that prohibitively expensive doesn't mean impossible or that no one does experiments in the area is just means that as a commercial or military endeavour it isn't profitable or worth the cost as smaller ships will fill the need. Yet circumstances change what is prohibitively expensive and the need to escape the milky way before teh reapers destroy everything suddenly changes the equation of what is prohibitively expensive.

 

The fact that you scoured the codex to prove your point and couldn't find anything that shows the Arks can't be made shows just how viable this solution is, but you can't admit this because it goes against your agenda and own personal narrative. The solution of suspended animation which we KNOW is part and parcel of the available technology shows clearly that many dangers of long flight times can be avoided by simply reducing the mass costs of supplying the crew by eliminating said supply requirements. And that just assumes that distance is the danger the codex is talking about it could very well be that illos is too close to stellar neighbours that are dangerous like blackholes, pulsars and radiation belts from resent (cosmologically speaking) super nova. None of which is a problem between galaxies in terms of causing an issue with navigating to Andromeda.



#114
Gothfather

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Yeah, and I guarantee the only reason they chose Andromeda rather than say the Large Magellanic Cloud is for marketability, even though it is ironic since with exploration being such a huge them having it take place in a galaxy named after a famous explorer would fit better. 

 

 

Again, LMC does count. It was upgraded from dwarf galaxy to a barred spiral galaxy. Andromeda being bigger doesn't make it the closest. 

Now in about 4 billion years Andromeda will be the closest. It will be really, really, really close. :P

 

The reason for my stubbornness is because as someone who loves astronomy this bugs me. I'm sure if Bioware did something that bugged you you would be stubborn about it. You already are with things like the whole Ryder family situation. 

 

Or how about Andromeda is perhaps THE most important extra solar body that was ever discovered, thanks to Hubble. The M31 nebula proved conclusively that the galaxy wasn't the universe. That is more than an insignificant finding, that is perhaps the most important finding in astronomy period. And the M31 nebula is the Andromeda galaxy and that is significant HISTORICAL reason to go THERE vs the LMC. But this doesn't fit your own personal narrative so while you claim to love and know about astronomy you seem WILFULLY ignorant of this critical piece of information about the Hubble-Andromeda connection and why it could be chosen as a destination vs a smaller closer galaxy but again that wouldn't allow you to continue you endless griping about the direction Bioware is taking. Andromeda is also the closest MAJOR galaxy so stop the faux reasoning for your outrage it doesn't stand up.



#115
Hanako Ikezawa

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Or how about Andromeda is perhaps THE most important extra solar body that was ever discovered, thanks to Hubble. The M31 nebula proved conclusively that the galaxy wasn't the universe. That is more than an insignificant finding, that is perhaps the most important finding in astronomy period. And the M31 nebula is the Andromeda galaxy and that is significant HISTORICAL reason to go THERE vs the LMC. But this doesn't fit your own personal narrative so while you claim to love and know about astronomy you seem WILFULLY ignorant of this critical piece of information about the Hubble-Andromeda connection and why it could be chosen as a destination vs a smaller closer galaxy but again that wouldn't allow you to continue you endless griping about the direction Bioware is taking. Andromeda is also the closest MAJOR galaxy so stop the faux reasoning for your outrage it doesn't stand up.

I never said Andromeda wasn't important, and vehemently agree that discovery is a huge milestone in astronomy, so stop trying to discredit me right now. You also haven't disproved the idea that they chose Andromeda because it is marketable, and in fact with what you said even supports that argument. After all, you just marketed Andromeda. 

That said, I argue that while it was a huge revelation in the field it wasn't the biggest period. That award more likely belongs to things like discovering the Earth revolves around the Sun, or all the evidence to support the Big Bang thus the origin of everything, etc. 

 

As for objecting to the direction Bioware is taking, if they give a good case for it I'll support it wholeheartedly. I've said that since Day 1. So far however they have not made such a case, or explained at all for that matter. 



#116
ModernAcademic

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I was replaying Mass Effect 3 today and decided to read some Codex entries. Two of them caught my attention: 'Ilos' and 'FTL Drives'.

About the first, it mentioned how universities often try to organize expeditions to charter a course to Ilos using conventional FTL travel, but they always give up on planning stages because of the dangers and difficulties of the travel. It would take years or decades and pass through dangerous areas of space. I found that to be an interesting example of how limited FTL technology is. Sure, we are talking about universities here, but the challenge of travelling to Ilos is also much smaller than travelling to another galaxy! 

And the second reminded me a bit of the mechanics of FTL travel in Mass Effect and reinforced my belief that there is absolute no one in the Milk Way capable of building the Arks. Just an passage from the codex: "very massive ships or very high speeds are prohibitively expensive".

Ark ships would need a lot of BOTH. Not to mention solving other problems long FTL travels would have.

Even if the Milk Way had the knowledge to build the Arks, which I don't believe they do, they certainly don't have the money. The Asari which are the richest race of the galaxy couldn't even keep up with the destruction of the Destiny Ascension and gave up their share of military responsabilities to the Turians. 

How can anyone then build multiple ships that are orders of magnitude more expansive than any single dreadnought? And in secrecy, mind you. It doesn't compute!

In those lines I look foward to see if they are just going to ignore that and say "oh, it could be done, trust me" or come up with a explanation that do not go against the logic established in the trilogy. What do you think? Am I overestimating how hard is to build ark ships capable of traveling the distance between galaxies?

 

To be honest, I'm still baffled by how they managed to build the Crucible.

 

Not only because it was massive in size, but also, where did they find so much titanium, tungsten, steel and other raw material to build it? There must be thousands of tons of metals used in its construction. How ON EARTH did they manage to collect it all? Did they send hundreds of thousands of ships to every corner of the galaxy and completely depleted every planet's resources from every star system? How long would that have taken? Wasn't there a timetable for completion or something?

 

Not to mention how fast they built the machines necessary to actually build the Crucible's parts. This is not something that can be done in a week or a month. Machines like that require a lot of testing, fine tuning, etc. There's a whole industrial process to build the production line before actually getting to build what's in the blueprint.

 

You know, I don't even want to think about the engineering behind the process. It hurts my head too much.


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#117
SNascimento

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You know, I don't even want to think about the engineering behind the process. It hurts my head too much.

Well, the idea behind the Crucible is that you have the entire galaxy, one time or the other, pouring resources towards it. Moreover, Hackett says the design is "elegant" so to allow it to be easy to build. Building the Crucible isn't much of a issue with me, but that it could be done is secrecy is ludicrous.


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