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[sniper_arrow]

If Meredith didn't bought the red lyrium idol, would her actions in Act 3 (let's assume the same events took place) make sense at all?

[ArcadiaGrey]

I doubt she'd have been so paranoid.  Her relationship with Orsino may not have gotten so bad, but I think Anders chose his path long before the events of Act 3.  He probably would have forced the issue either way tbh and always blown up the Chantry.

[Catilina]

Meredith was too paranoid and cruel from the beginning. Just remember the case of Karl, Maddox and Samson! The reason for this is probably rooted in her past, but it is clear that she was unsuitable to his post. 

 

I think the red lyrium just icing on her cake...

[Unata]

Her whole reason for becoming a templar was because her sister Amelia, was a mage and became an abomination and killed over 70 villagers before being killed, This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why mages must be treated as people with a curse.

 

So even without the idol she was still heavy handed to mages, and every instance of blood magic popping up just set her off more, Anders just sped up the time before she would go off the deep end anyway.

[Beerfish]

A brave an honorable soul who knew better than anyone the immense danger of mages.  I salute her lyrium statue in Kirkwall each time I pass it.

[Lazarillo]

There are some revelations about Red Lyrium in Inquisition that don't necessarily jive with what happens to Meredith in terms of mental/emotional repercussions in Dragon Age 2. This makes me think that most of her paranoia actually is her and has nothing to do with the Red Lyrium idol, ultimately. In some ways, this makes her kind of impressive...her dedication to her beliefs gave her so much fortitude that she was able to resist the influence that corrupted so many others. In others, it makes her even scarier, since it meant she was that willing to harm innocents for the sake of her "ideals".

I think it's ultimately a lot like Arcadia Gray and Unata said: even if the idol was amplifying certain negative aspects of her personality, she still would've been fighting Orsino in the streets, and she still would've had an extreme response to the Chantry's destruction, especially with the revelation that there really was a conspiracy against her specifically (even if Hawke ended it).

[Catilina]

A brave an honorable soul who knew better than anyone the immense danger of mages.  I salute her lyrium statue in Kirkwall each time I pass it.

 "She's howling at the bloody moon!"

[themikefest]

One thing is for sure. She wouldn't of been turned into a lyrium statue.

[sniper_arrow]

Another question: without the lyrium idol, would it make the game's plot a bit better?

[Spirit Vanguard]

I think down the road it would've gotten worse regardless, honestly.

 

As for without the idol? Not sure it would make the game better, per se. A lot of events are crisscrossing in Kirkwall, so without the red lryium to agitated the situation, or to not have it established before Inquisition... no. I don't think it would've been better.

 

I doubt she'd have been so paranoid.  Her relationship with Orsino may not have gotten so bad, but I think Anders chose his path long before the events of Act 3.  He probably would have forced the issue either way tbh and always blown up the Chantry.

 

If Anders suspected that the Circle would be punished for his actions, then yeah. I think Meredith is as much a catalyst for his explosion as he was for her Right of Annulment reaction. Remove one or both? Kirkwall might've been a little less... bloody. 

[Lord of War]

Of course. Meredith was a paranoid tyrant from day one, and what happened to her sister doesn't make that any better. In fact, Meredith entirely misunderstood why her sister became an abomination: it wasn't because of the curse of magic, but the society that the Chantry has forced on too much of the world. Meredith betrayed her sister's memory by becoming a Templar, and her tyranny ultimately causes more abominations than it ever stops.

 

As for DA2's plot, I think I would "fix" it by making it all about toppling Meredith at the end (for varying reasons, with varying methods, of course). I would have liked to see her and senior officers (and Elthina) torn apart by an angry mob.

[Beerfish]

Of course. Meredith was a paranoid tyrant from day one, and what happened to her sister doesn't make that any better. In fact, Meredith entirely misunderstood why her sister became an abomination: it wasn't because of the curse of magic, but the society that the Chantry has forced on too much of the world. Meredith betrayed her sister's memory by becoming a Templar, and her tyranny ultimately causes more abominations than it ever stops.

 

As for DA2's plot, I think I would "fix" it by making it all about toppling Meredith at the end (for varying reasons, with varying methods, of course). I would have liked to see her and senior officers (and Elthina) torn apart by an angry mob.

What a sheer and utter load of rubbish.  Blaming the fact that her sister as a mage did what happens to mages at times and goes on a killing spree and blaming it on the chantry.  Just pure nonsense.  It's posts like these that make it impossible to take some pro mage people seriously at all.

[Catilina]

What a sheer and utter load of rubbish.  Blaming the fact that her sister as a mage did what happens to mages at times and goes on a killing spree and blaming it on the chantry.  Just pure nonsense.  It's posts like these that make it impossible to take some pro mage people seriously at all.

Meredith is crazy. There is no logical argument to support  her. Emotional argument can be made if Carver became Templar.

[Ferretinabun]

If Meredith didn't bought the red lyrium idol, would her actions in Act 3 (let's assume the same events took place) make sense at all?

 

Yes, they would. They might not have been reasonable or wise, but they would certainly have made sense. They just would have established Meredith as a paranoid authoritarian, which entirely fit with the character Bioware was trying to establish for her anyway.

 

Which was why I was disappointed at the lyrium sword reveal. It was entirely unnecessary. The only possible reasons I can fathom for them including it at all were:

 

1) Making it feel like it was our (Hawke's) fault. Which could have been achieved more subtly with the outcomes of our decisions re-enforcing her delusions rather than a magic sword.

2) Making us feel better about killing her. If she was just misguided then that runs the risk of people sympathising with her (case in point, people still actually do) but if she's craaaaazy then we can just murder her, no problem. *side-eye*

 

3) Giving her superpowers so she's a flashy, badass final boss. Which... yeah.

[Lord of War]

What a sheer and utter load of rubbish.  Blaming the fact that her sister as a mage did what happens to mages at times and goes on a killing spree and blaming it on the chantry.  Just pure nonsense.  It's posts like these that make it impossible to take some pro mage people seriously at all.

 

Not even going to try and understand? The Chantry created the conditions that led to Meredith's sister becoming an abomination. Why did her family hide her from the Circle, where she should have been educated and protected? Because they're prisons, with lifetime sentences, and no visitations for non-nobles. The hiding, the fear and anxiety of being taken away that led to her transformation, that was created by centuries of Chantry doctrine pushed down on the people.

 

And Meredith's rule in Kirkwall does the same thing to mages like Thrask's daughter, Huon, and Evelina.

[Lazarillo]

If Anders suspected that the Circle would be punished for his actions, then yeah. I think Meredith is as much a catalyst for his explosion as he was for her Right of Annulment reaction. Remove one or both? Kirkwall might've been a little less... bloody. 

Anders intended for the Circle to be punished for his actions.  That was his entire motive.  Since the Mages wouldn't stand up for themselves for the sake of their rights the way he wanted, he instead forced them to fight for the sake of their lives.

[MisterJB]

What a sheer and utter load of rubbish.  Blaming the fact that her sister as a mage did what happens to mages at times and goes on a killing spree and blaming it on the chantry.  Just pure nonsense.  It's posts like these that make it impossible to take some pro mage people seriously at all.

Lord of War has a theory that Elthina set up the fire at the Starkhaven's Circle (despite the game stating it was Decimus) because she had the heir of Starkhaven as her protege (despite her encouraging him to take his own path in life) and because Starkhaven will need more Templars (despite the lack of a Circle meaning there isn't a need for the Templars) because she wants to set up a Theocracy in the Free Marches.

 

[Catilina]

[...]

1) Making it feel like it was our (Hawke's) fault. Which could have been achieved more subtly with the outcomes of our decisions re-enforcing her delusions rather than a magic sword.

[...]

(What is not exactly logical, because the expedition was organized by Bartrand, ergo would be starting without Hawke too, but yes, Hawke can blame him/herself for it.)

[Lord of War]

Lord of War has a theory that Elthina set up the fire at the Starkhaven's Circle (despite the game stating it was Decimus) because she had the heir of Starkhaven as her protege (despite her encouraging him to take his own path in life) and because Starkhaven will need more Templars (despite the lack of a Circle meaning there isn't a need for the Templars) because she wants to set up a Theocracy in the Free Marches.

 

Eh, they can't all be winners. I thought Elthina was Grand Cleric of all the Free Marches, not just the southern ones, and given the coup Elthina helped Meredith pull in Kirkwall, it wouldn't exactly be unprecedented for her to send in an extra large Templar garrison when the Starkhaven Circle would have been reestablished. 

 

But that doesn't address my point here. Meredith enforces a system that pushes mages (like her sister) into situations and mindsets that produce abominations, a system designed by the Chantry.

[Catilina]

Yes, they would. They might not have been reasonable or wise, but they would certainly have made sense. They just would have established Meredith as a paranoid authoritarian, which entirely fit with the character Bioware was trying to establish for her anyway.

 

Which was why I was disappointed at the lyrium sword reveal. It was entirely unnecessary. [...]

True... but if I think about it, I can say: was not that bad idea the red lyrium sword. This moment can balance the image. By Meredith believed that she to be able to control the red lyrium, she became same as to make her afraid. An abomination.

 

(As later the red templars. So: not just the mages can become abomination, if they yield to the temptation.)

[Spirit Vanguard]

Anders intended for the Circle to be punished for his actions.  That was his entire motive.  Since the Mages wouldn't stand up for themselves for the sake of their rights the way he wanted, he instead forced them to fight for the sake of their lives.

No, yeah. That's what I was saying. He forced it because he knew the Circle would be punished instead of him, proving how bad the situation really was. But if he didn't believe that would happen, would he still have done it? I'm not so sure...

[Lazarillo]

No, yeah. That's what I was saying. He forced it because he knew the Circle would be punished instead of him, proving how bad the situation really was. But if he didn't believe that would happen, would he still have done it? I'm not so sure...

Ah, I get it, your idea is that he might not have tried it if Meredith hadn't been so harsh, because he couldn't have "trusted" another Knight-Commander to respond as violently to his attack.  That makes sense.

 

Though, as to whether he would've committed such an act if Meredith hadn't been so harsh towards the Mages, I think it's equally possible Anders was so far gone at that point that he would've done anything to spark that war... so he might've done something even more atrocious to incite it.

[Spirit Vanguard]

Ah, I get it, your idea is that he might not have tried it if Meredith hadn't been so harsh, because he couldn't have "trusted" another Knight-Commander to respond as violently to his attack.  That makes sense.
 
Though, as to whether he would've committed such an act if Meredith hadn't been so harsh towards the Mages, I think it's equally possible Anders was so far gone at that point that he would've done anything to spark that war... so he might've done something even more atrocious to incite it.

I don't doubt that Anders would've done something eventually, but Meredith combined with Elthina unwilling to intervene and the Chantry's general treatment of mages/magic is why... eruption happened.

The more desperate or hopeless a person feels the more outrageous their actions may become. Anders was helping mages flee the Circle, which is a tame and reasonable way to approach the situation. But when he loses that while suffering under Justice who doesn't understand the concept of time, it gets worse. I think he would've tried to battle it out as evenly as he could for as long as possible. "Fight fire with fire," is what I mean, I suppose.

[Lord of War]

I don't doubt that Anders would've done something eventually, but Meredith combined with Elthina unwilling to intervene and the Chantry's general treatment of mages/magic is why... eruption happened.

The more desperate or hopeless a person feels the more outrageous their actions may become. Anders was helping mages flee the Circle, which is a tame and reasonable way to approach the situation. But when he loses that while suffering under Justice who doesn't understand the concept of time, it gets worse. I think he would've tried to battle it out as evenly as he could for as long as possible. "Fight fire with fire," is what I mean, I suppose.

 

Also he did this with the help of the Mage Underground, which Meredith destroys between Act 2 and 3. He probably lost a lot of friends.

[fhs33721]

Had Meredith not been in posession of the lyrium idol she'd probably have reacted more or less the same for the most part. She was a horrible person to begin with even before she got the red lyrium. That being said without it she would have probably actually gotten away with what she did. Without the idol she would probably not have turned on her own templars in the very end (when she accuses them all of being mind controlled for not wanting to kill Hawke) and instead resonably let Hawke go if Pro templar and imprison her/him if Pro-Mage. And then she would most likely have continued to lord over Kirkwall as a tyrant until someone else finally offed her.