14 réponses à ce sujet

[Lazarillo]

I've been working on a new world state in the Keep, but I try to put things together in ways that stay consistent with the story, so I'm curious: is there any sort of explanation or excuse given for why Leliana thought the Warden disappeared if the two of them were involved?  I tried to find references to this, but they all make it sound like Leliana knew what the Warden was up to all along.  Did Leliana simply lie to Cassandra or was this completely glossed over?

[Iakus]

I've been working on a new world state in the Keep, but I try to put things together in ways that stay consistent with the story, so I'm curious: is there any sort of explanation or excuse given for why Leliana thought the Warden disappeared if the two of them were involved?  I tried to find references to this, but they all make it sound like Leliana knew what the Warden was up to all along.  Did Leliana simply lie to Cassandra or was this completely glossed over?

 

According to Leliana in DAI, the Warden left to find a cure for the Calling.  At least part of the reason was so that he/she would then be able to live out a normal lifespan with Leliana, sparing her the pain of watching the HoF descend into ghouldom.

 

edit:  It's never explained if Leliana lied to Cassandra or simply lied by omission.  She did not know where the HoF went, but could get a message to them.

[Lazarillo]

edit:  It's never explained if Leliana lied to Cassandra or simply lied by omission.  She did not know where the HoF went, but could get a message to them.

Yeah, this is the part I was curious about.  Leliana tells Cassandra that both the Warden and Hawke have "gone missing", and suggests their disappearances might be related.  Granted, Hawke's disappearance was just Varric lying, but then it doesn't make sense to me as to why Leliana would think there was a connection when she knows what happened to the Warden (or why Cassandra would think that they couldn't find the Warden to lead the Inquisition).  I guess I was just hoping that since Varric had an excuse for why he lied, there would be some sort of excuse given for why Leliana lied too.

[Ghost Gal]

Yeah, I'm kind of disappointed that Leliana is not held accountable for not saying where the Warden is if she romanced them and thus knew where they were all along. I know Cassandra is Leliana's friend and coworker, thus she wouldn't be as angry with her as she is at Varric, but it's still kind of disappointing that NO ONE called Leliana out on lying, or at least lying by omission. Not so much as a "hey, what gives?"

[jlb524]

I've been working on a new world state in the Keep, but I try to put things together in ways that stay consistent with the story, so I'm curious: is there any sort of explanation or excuse given for why Leliana thought the Warden disappeared if the two of them were involved?  I tried to find references to this, but they all make it sound like Leliana knew what the Warden was up to all along.  Did Leliana simply lie to Cassandra or was this completely glossed over?

 

Leliana doesn't know where the Warden is at exactly.  She can't summon them like Varric did with Hawke.  Hawke could have been made Inquisitor if Varric was honest upfront.  

 

Leliana can get a letter to the Warden half-way through the game well after a new Inquisitor was already found.  We don't know if she always could do so but how would that help anyway?  The Warden is far far away.

[Lazarillo]

Leliana can get a letter to the Warden half-way through the game well after a new Inquisitor was already found.  We don't know if she always could do so but how would that help anyway?  The Warden is far far away.

The problem I have though is that if you talk to Cassandra after Varric reveals he was lying, she mentions the Warden was their first choice all along to lead the Inquisition. It was only after the Warden couldn't be located that they went after Hawke. And at the end of Dragon Age 2, Leliana states that she believes the disappearance of the two heroes is "no coincidence". But if Leliana knew why the Warden left and where s/he was going (in a general sense), it doesn't gel that she would think Hawke's "disappearance" is related. Nor does it seem like she couldn't have had word sent earlier on so that the Warden could just give Cassandra an explicit "no, busy, sorry" reply.

Like, with Varric, he states that he hid Hawke's location because he thought the Seekers would more or less have him/her martyred (intentionally or not). It's not necessarily a good excuse, from a narrative standpoint, but at least it's there. Leliana doesn't even offer that as far as I've seen (and if she does, that's what I want to know about, because otherwise I can't bring myself to use a Leliana-romanced world state in DAI), nor does Cassandra ever seem concerned with the idea that Leliana also lied, without even having a reason to.

[jlb524]

The problem I have though is that if you talk to Cassandra after Varric reveals he was lying, she mentions the Warden was their first choice all along to lead the Inquisition. It was only after the Warden couldn't be located that they went after Hawke. And at the end of Dragon Age 2, Leliana states that she believes the disappearance of the two heroes is "no coincidence". But if Leliana knew why the Warden left and where s/he was going (in a general sense), it doesn't gel that she would think Hawke's "disappearance" is related. Nor does it seem like she couldn't have had word sent earlier on so that the Warden could just give Cassandra an explicit "no, busy, sorry" reply.

Like, with Varric, he states that he hid Hawke's location because he thought the Seekers would more or less have him/her martyred (intentionally or not). It's not necessarily a good excuse, from a narrative standpoint, but at least it's there. Leliana doesn't even offer that as far as I've seen (and if she does, that's what I want to know about, because otherwise I can't bring myself to use a Leliana-romanced world state in DAI), nor does Cassandra ever seem concerned with the idea that Leliana also lied, without even having a reason to.

 

I take the end of DA2 with a grain of salt since they probably changed their minds a few times on what they were going to do with the Warden/Hawke since then.   There was an interview I read with Jennifer Hepler (posted recently in the Twitter thread - I can find it if you want) where she mentioned at one point they considered having both Hawke/Warden show up in Inquisition.  It's possible they originally did want those two to be off doing something together (if the Warden was alive) but this got rehashed into what we see today and the Warden had to go off on some wild goose chase just to get them away from the events of the game.

 

If the Warden was available to lead the Inquisition, why would Leliana hide that? 

[Lazarillo]

I take the end of DA2 with a grain of salt since they probably changed their minds a few times on what they were going to do with the Warden/Hawke since then.   There was an interview I read with Jennifer Hepler (posted recently in the Twitter thread - I can find it if you want) where she mentioned at one point they considered having both Hawke/Warden show up in Inquisition.  It's possible they originally did want those two to be off doing something together (if the Warden was alive) but this got rehashed into what we see today and the Warden had to go off on some wild goose chase just to get them away from the events of the game.

 

If the Warden was available to lead the Inquisition, why would Leliana hide that? 

Yeah, I agree that the real reason it worked out like it did is because the writers originally had other plans for the story.  As a fan, I'm cool with that.  The thing is, in practice, it still ends up feeling like a plot hole in that case, and since, through the Keep, I have complete control over the state of the world (well, maybe not complete, but you get the idea), I can choose not to use world states that feel inconsistent.  The problem is in this specific case, I was thinking about whether to create an Inquisition playthrough to follow up my City Elf, whose character arc I really enjoyed, but for whom the Leliana romance was a critical aspect.  So I'm left with creating a plot hole that versus just using a different Warden, the latter of which is the easier path because I have plenty of Wardens, but is a little disappointing since I can't tell a consistent story with one of my favorites.

 

It's sorta like how despite all my Wardens, I've never done the Ultimate Sacrifice ending (except once in a deleted save for the cheevo), because you can't carry over a world state from Origins to Awakening that keeps the Warden's death.  The decisions are mine, but I can't bring myself to knowingly make one that makes the story inconsistent.

[jlb524]

Yeah, I agree that the real reason it worked out like it did is because the writers originally had other plans for the story.  As a fan, I'm cool with that.  The thing is, in practice, it still ends up feeling like a plot hole in that case, and since, through the Keep, I have complete control over the state of the world (well, maybe not complete, but you get the idea), I can choose not to use world states that feel inconsistent.  The problem is in this specific case, I was thinking about whether to create an Inquisition playthrough to follow up my City Elf, whose character arc I really enjoyed, but for whom the Leliana romance was a critical aspect.  So I'm left with creating a plot hole that versus just using a different Warden, the latter of which is the easier path because I have plenty of Wardens, but is a little disappointing since I can't tell a consistent story with one of my favorites.

 

It's sorta like how despite all my Wardens, I've never done the Ultimate Sacrifice ending (except once in a deleted save for the cheevo), because you can't carry over a world state from Origins to Awakening that keeps the Warden's death.  The decisions are mine, but I can't bring myself to knowingly make one that makes the story inconsistent.

 

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you then if you want to minimize plot holes and it is a plot hole if you take the DA2 ending at face value.  All my Wardens romanced Leliana but I guess I got over how their intent with DAI Warden didn't line up with DA2 Warden.  Honestly, they probably didn't have much of a plan back in DA2 except keep the Warden's whereabouts unknown and mysterious.  Taking DA2 ending at face value gives us some bizarre things..if Leliana believed the Warden/Hawke's disappearances are linked and knows the Warden went to find the Calling, does she believe Hawke went to help the Warden?   Why the heck would Hawke do that?  Hawke/Warden likely never met and the only link between them would exist if the Warden was a human mage (they would then be related so Hawke would be helping out a relative...you could argue this would work if Bethany/Carver are Grey Wardens and Hawke wanted to find a cure for them).  But this won't work for every Warden so seems random.

 

I'm pretty sure the intent with DAI is that Leliana knows the Warden went far away to cure the Calling but can't find her to be leader of the Inquisition (this is all before the Breach) so she wasn't lying.

 

Edit:  I guess if you wanted to, you could fix it with headcanon and say the Warden didn't tell Leliana where they were going at first and just left.  Leliana finds out later about the Calling mission through her Agents (who may have spotted the Warden going west) or perhaps she found a note the Warden left.  The Warden might have been in a hurry to go after a very promising lead and didn't get a chance to track Leliana down and tell her.

[thats1evildude]

As it stands, it was just a coincidence that Hawke and the Warden went missing at the same time. Leliana was mistaken.

And Hawke was only "missing" in the sense that Cassandra couldn't find them. Varric knew where Hawke was all along.

[Iakus]

 

If the Warden was available to lead the Inquisition, why would Leliana hide that? 

Perhaps she thought the cure for the Calling was more important.  This was back when the mage/Templar conflict was the only thing going on atm.  Corypheus hadn't created the Breach yet.

 

AS for her saying "this is no coincidence" she might be speaking in terms of destiny.  She might think the Maker is guiding events.  The Warden and Hawke were not "meant" to lead the Inquisition, so they were removed from the field of options.

[jlb524]

Perhaps she thought the cure for the Calling was more important.  This was back when the mage/Templar conflict was the only thing going on atm.  Corypheus hadn't created the Breach yet.

 

I doubt they were going to force the Warden to lead the Inquisition so again, I don't see much reason for the Warden to be hiding out somewhere, unlike Hawke.  "I'm dying from the Calling" is a good reason to turn down the position.

[Tidus]

Maybe Leliana lied to keep her sweetie from harm after he/she barely escape death in DA:O thanks to Morrigan's DR.

 

Morrigan's DR is a last minute retrieve from a certain death.

 

She knows first hand what the HoF went through from assassination attempts to Loghain's duel.

 

Why would she want her sweetie in another save the world mess when he/she barely escape the blight? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

All of this is assuming Loghain died for his crimes. YMMV.

[DDJ]

Yeah, I don't know what to tell you then if you want to minimize plot holes and it is a plot hole if you take the DA2 ending at face value.  All my Wardens romanced Leliana but I guess I got over how their intent with DAI Warden didn't line up with DA2 Warden.  Honestly, they probably didn't have much of a plan back in DA2 except keep the Warden's whereabouts unknown and mysterious.  Taking DA2 ending at face value gives us some bizarre things..if Leliana believed the Warden/Hawke's disappearances are linked and knows the Warden went to find the Calling, does she believe Hawke went to help the Warden?   Why the heck would Hawke do that?  Hawke/Warden likely never met and the only link between them would exist if the Warden was a human mage (they would then be related so Hawke would be helping out a relative...you could argue this would work if Bethany/Carver are Grey Wardens and Hawke wanted to find a cure for them).  But this won't work for every Warden so seems random.

 

I'm pretty sure the intent with DAI is that Leliana knows the Warden went far away to cure the Calling but can't find her to be leader of the Inquisition (this is all before the Breach) so she wasn't lying.

 

Edit:  I guess if you wanted to, you could fix it with headcanon and say the Warden didn't tell Leliana where they were going at first and just left.  Leliana finds out later about the Calling mission through her Agents (who may have spotted the Warden going west) or perhaps she found a note the Warden left.  The Warden might have been in a hurry to go after a very promising lead and didn't get a chance to track Leliana down and tell her.

 

I think you are on the right track here.  Since the Wardens seem to emphasize "putting someone out of the way" who knows their secrets, a cured HoF is likely in danger from them.  Not obvious danger, since killing HoF publicly would cause a stir, but certainly they have the ability to hire all kinds of assassins etc. who could make it look like an accident.  Any Warden not firmly chained to their leash is a danger to them in their minds.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes, Leliana lied to Cassandra and the Divine to protect the Hero whom she knew was on a mission to find a cure for the taint. I think this is true even in some cases where Leliana and the Hero were just friends. Like in mine, my Hero King would have told Anora where he was going, and Leliana would logically question Queen Anora, who would have no reason to hide the truth from her. But they would want it kept secret. Same with Fergus, whom Leliana claims to know well by the time DA:I takes place.

By the time the issue comes up, the world already has the Inquisitor, so there's no harm in revealing the Hero's information. They aren't going to try to bring him back to the South for any reason.

The idea that the Hero's and Champion's disappearances were linked was just a theory, and in hindsight it was based on a faulty conclusion about Hawke, who didn't actually disappear. Varric lied about that. Leliana lied about the Hero. So in a way, they were kind of linked. Both were lied about.

It's also possible that Leliana honestly suspected a link because she knew the Hero was searching for a cure for the taint, and Varric's story involved Hawke having some dealings with Stroud or Alistair who were researching some mystery in and around Kirkwall. Perhaps she thought Stroud or Alistair (especially Alistair) were working with the Hero. So if they brought Hawke into the plan, then the Hero and Champion really could have disappeared for the same reason, but still a reason Leliana didn't want to reveal.