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Why so little faith in Mass Effect Andromeda?


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#451
AlanC9

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I would argue against that thesis, since DA does have a self-evident reason to be authentically medieval: authenticity. Placing characters with modern values and ways of thinking in a pre-modern setting, like some glorified Renaissance faire, is one of the most annoying tendencies of contemporary fantasy. It makes the setting feel fake, by copying all of the set dressing and yet none of the substance; in real life, our current moral system has a very intricate historical context.


And yet, Thedas isn't Earth. There's no real reason why a different culture with a different history would be a particularly good match for a specific Earth culture at a specific time.
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#452
Gwydden

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And yet, Thedas isn't Earth. There's no real reason why a different culture with a different history would be a particularly good match for a specific Earth culture at a specific time.

There isn't, but they are. It's very easy to make a one for one match up of every nation in Thedas with a real world country from the Middle Ages. I question the choice to copy the appearance of the Olden Times without any of the really important stuff. It is like one of those cheap marketing stunts that try to sell you "authentic" Irish pubs or Chinese restaurants or what have you, or like Disneyland or a Renaissance faire with their warped perceptions of the Middle Ages.

 

Let's not pretend Bioware does not try to make a more "realistic" setting because of a conscious design choice. They do it because it's easier and more marketable. Even more likely, they do it thoughtlessly because it is what everyone else is doing, including their main sources of inspiration for DA (D&D and ASoIaF).


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#453
Akka le Vil

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As far as I know, hard science fiction is a category of science fiction characterized by an emphasis on scientific accuracy or technical detail or both. As in, it is about being accurate to real science and basically; "a story should try to be accurate, logical, credible and rigorous in its use of current scientific and technical knowledge about which technology, phenomena, scenarios and situations that are practically and/or theoretically possible."
 
Science fiction in the soft or fantasy category can have attention to detail, consistency and good worldbuilding. These tend to be the mark of fictional works.
 
Also, Mass Effect has never belonged in the category of hard science fiction since I do not think biotic, amongst other things, are developed or derived from anything currently in existence in the real world.

 

Obviously the biotic powers can't exist in the real world, because they rely on element zero which doesn't. That's a tiny notch toward softness (I'd like to remind : the world is not binary, and not all violations are equal, hardness vs softness is a scale, not a 0 or 1), but as it was repeatedly said it's not really a big deal - what's important is that it's INTERNALLY CONSISTENT. Your own definition puts the emphasis on accuracy, logic, rigor and credibility.

 

Obviously ME is not absolute in these fields (biotics, for example, are reasonably explained, but this same definition would allow the replication of said powers through pure electronical devices, which are obviously absent in the setting), but it's pretty good, and I'd say much more detailed and rigorous than the vast majority of popular works - I'd put it easily on par with Dune.

Both makes concession to narrative and conventions in order to be able to make the world they want, but both are pretty rigorous toward their own premises.

The hardest of the hard in SF are actually barely SF - if you've to be absolutely strictly sure that what you do is ultra-realistic, the only way to do it is to restrict yourself to what already exists after all. Among the SF which allows aliens civilizations and FTL ? ME is right up there with the hardest.



#454
Geth Supremacy

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3 reasons:

 

2818402-mass_effect_3.jpg

 

I never had the rage others did coming off of ME3.  I definitely understand why people said and reacted the way they did, but to me it's because of DA: I.  All of the stuff from that game really changed my outlook.


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#455
fdrty

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And yet, Thedas isn't Earth. There's no real reason why a different culture with a different history would be a particularly good match for a specific Earth culture at a specific time.

 

The point you're refuting seems to rely on two biased assumptions - progress is only measured by how closely a society follows our path (it isn't) and that societies can only evolve in the specific order in which we have discovered ( they don't, an RL example is China, who had tech the west didn't, but didn't know about glass, which had existed in Africa for millennia)

 

Technology has massively shaped the politics of our world: no electricity or gunpowder, and feudalism doesn't collapse, lords still hole up in castles, and centralisation remains impossible. No industrialisation, and no communism/socialism. No printing press, and a lot of things don't happen. No optics, and no exploration... play a game of Civ 5 and you'll see how long societies can go without discovering certain tech.

 

In a world where many of these technologies are replaced in function by magic - and magic can do so much more, then basically all bets are off on what the socio-political makeup of the world will be.


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#456
Gwydden

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The point you're refuting seems to rely on two biased assumptions - progress is only measured by how closely a society follows our path (it isn't) and that societies can only evolve in the specific order in which we have discovered ( they don't, an RL example is China, who had tech the west didn't, but didn't know about glass, which had existed in Africa for millennia)

I'm not making a historical argument. Yes, it is theoretically possible that a medievalesque-looking society with 21st century values could exist. Yes, magic messes up the equation tremendously.

 

But this is a story we're talking about. Stories' aren't real. They're artificial, constructed entities. So everything that is in the game is a choice someone somewhere made. I'm less interested in how plausible Thedas is and more in why it is the way it is from a Doylian perspective. And my guess is that the reason is that they didn't even think of making it more authentic, and that even if they had they wouldn't have had the knowledge or the will and interest to pursue it, since applying it is not considered fashionable nor necessary in this day and age.

 

Point being, Thedas is not faux-medieval because of some clever authorial decision, but because it's derivative. Just like Mass Effect as a setting is neither scientifically sound nor particularly futuristic in any way other than set-dressing because it's derivative. The best settings are not the ones that are bursting with pointless details, but the ones that have a unique personality and service the other elements in the story, such as plot, characters and themes. And you only obtain such a setting through careful design and application of it.

 

Bioware does this very well at times, but others they just copy and paste whatever's hip from some mainstream speculative fiction franchise (or from their previous games...), which just hurts their storytelling.

 

EDIT: Everything in my oh-so-humble opinion, of course.



#457
Kabraxal

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I'm not making a historical argument. Yes, it is theoretically possible that a medievalesque-looking society with 21st century values could exist. Yes, magic messes up the equation tremendously.

 

But this is a story we're talking about. Stories' aren't real. They're artificial, constructed entities. So everything that is in the game is a choice someone somewhere made. I'm less interested in how plausible Thedas is and more in why it is the way it is from a Doylian perspective. And my guess is that the reason is that they didn't even think of making it more authentic, and that even if they had they wouldn't have had the knowledge or the will and interest to pursue it, since applying it is not considered fashionable nor necessary in this day and age.

 

Point being, Thedas is not faux-medieval because of some clever authorial decision, but because it's derivative. Just like Mass Effect as a setting is neither scientifically sound nor particularly futuristic in any way other than set-dressing because it's derivative. The best settings are not the ones that are bursting with pointless details, but the ones that have a unique personality and service the other elements in the story, such as plot, characters and themes. And you only obtain such a setting through careful design and application of it.

 

Bioware does this very well at times, but others they just copy and paste whatever's hip from some mainstream speculative fiction franchise (or from their previous games...), which just hurts their storytelling.

 

EDIT: Everything in my oh-so-humble opinion, of course.

 

From what I am reading, you simply want the same old dark fantasy clichés that are abound in the genre.  Dragon Age was apparently inspired by and ended up being subversive of both Tolkein high fantasy and the typical dark fantasy tropes .  Whereas most other fantasy games or books play it safe and strive for this false sentiment of authenticity, Dragon Age has set itself out to be unique.  The only other fantasy world that has truly set itself apart and not wholly reliant on the typical clichés seems to be Kushiel's Legacy.

 

And the word that is getting you in trouble in the discussion is "authentic".  There is no "authentic" in terms of fantasy.   The world and its history is decided not by how our world developed, but by the author.  Authenticity is only a concern if this was a historical game depicting any part of this world at a specific time.  Otherwise, authenticity is a meaningless word.



#458
Gwydden

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From what I am reading, you simply want the same old dark fantasy clichés that are abound in the genre.

Not really. I like Thedas as a setting, just not how the more recent games have chosen to portray it. But this conversation is quickly sliding into off-topic territory, so I'll just add that it started because I pointed out Thedas didn't need to be authentic any more than ME has to be hard sci fi, and then when someone picked on that particular throwaway phrase of mine I couldn't help a little off-topic rant that was directed less at Dragon Age in particular and more at mainstream fantasy literature in general (and D&D specially).

 

EDIT: There's also a jab at ASoIaF somewhere in my rant, if that's what you meant by dark fantasy. Although when I hear the term I don't think of whatever ASoIaF is, but of fantasy + horror, which is a very different thing.



#459
Kabraxal

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Not really. I like Thedas as a setting, just not how the more recent games have chosen to portray it. But this conversation is quickly sliding into off-topic territory, so I'll just add that it started because I pointed out Thedas didn't need to be authentic any more than ME has to be hard sci fi, and then when someone picked on that particular throwaway phrase of my I couldn't help a little off-topic rant that was directed less at Dragon Age in particular and more at mainstream fantasy literature in general (and D&D in particular).

 

EDIT: There's also a jab at ASoIaF somewhere in my rant, if that's what you meant by dark fantasy. Although when I hear the term I don't think of whatever ASoIaF is, but of fantasy + horror, which is a very different thing.

 

The issue is, that with fantasy there is no such thing as authentic defined by an object outside of the universe.  All it has to do to be "authentic" is to create a set of rules and historical progression and stay true to those.  Dragon Age is completely authentic in regards to its rules and the history it has presented. 

 

Mass Effect has some of the same leeway, though it does have to remain authentic in actual real world ways in some respects.  Biotics, eezo, FTL... all of that is free of the "hard science" restraints of authenticity as long as the world tries to create a set of rules and consistent precedent for which those things are built.  Granted, Mass Effect is a definite mash up of Star Trek and Star Wars, so it does toe that line between a more hard science fiction tale and a science fantasy tale.  But to try and hold it to solely to our understanding of science now is a bit dubious. I mean, we have just started to discover the possibility that there are particles that travel faster than light.  In fact, scientific discovery is as much imagination as it is "hard science" and a lot of that is actually thanks to shows like Star Trek that simply made people go "I'm going to make that happen" and to hell with the current understanding of science.  We "changed the rules" instead of saying "nope, not possible."  Maybe in a hundred years, we discover something that grants humans something like Biotic powers and suddenly this "hard science" distinction looks completely ridiculous. 

 

TLDR version: authenticity is not solely defined by our world even with science fiction and it is never defined by our world in fantasy.  It is created by a set of rules and consistency in that fiction's universe. 

 

As for the ASoIaF... the first few books get a pass because it was comparatively "new" in the mainstream at the time of the original publishing, even if books 4 and 5 are simply repeating the same beats over and over to the point the series has collapsed on itself.  With dark fantasy, I am talking more about the cliche fests produced by guys like Abercrombie. And people thought the high fantasy era was flooded with clichés... between dark fantasy and dark urban fantasy, I think creativity and hope were both slaughtered. 


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#460
Spectr61

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I never had the rage others did coming off of ME3.  I definitely understand why people said and reacted the way they did, but to me it's because of DA: I.  All of the stuff from that game really changed my outlook.


Rage is a strong word.

I'm sure some did experience it, but my experience was disappointment.

Sadness, disappointment, anger, rage; all in a spectrum, choose which applies in each individuals case; however the sad part to me is even having any of them apply.

#461
In Exile

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For someone who can't understand a simple sentence in english, is simplistic and binary enough to not see a difference between Star Wars and Mass Effect, and get pompous about IA before being schooled by someone who actually knows something, you sure talk big about intellectual abilites :lol:

You DO realize you used Foundation (with psychohistory, psychic powers, space opera battles, FTL handwaving and 20 000 years of robotic progress unable to beat human brain) as a shining example of "hard" SF against ME ?
Except if it was supposed to be ironic, I'm not sure you could have got a worst example...

It seems there is quite a bit of jerking about trying to look down on ME about hardness, actively attempting to ignore the massive solid background to focus on the few space opera tropes or lazy handwaving, while doing the exact opposite on other works. Try to be consistent, people.


Get schooled on AI? What are you talking about? We've never discussed AI.

You've said two things about Mass Effect being hard sci-fi: first, that it provides explanations, and second, that stuff about the army is well done. I can't comment on the military stuff - I know very little about it. But an accurate portrayal of the army has little to do with whether something is hard sci-fi - in fact it has little to do with whether something is even sci-fi. Like the all-human Council point. It's hokey, but it has nothing to do with science fiction. It fails because it involves a hilarious ignorance of politics.

ME can't even apply actual science - well-known and well-established - like immunology.

#462
Akka le Vil

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I never claimed they were hard sci fi, but rather listed them among classics that could be considered at least "remotely hard." My main point was that those were seminal works in science fiction and yet ME takes very little after them, in spite of it shamelessly imitating Star Wars, Star Trek and Marvel, none of which are even "remotely hard" (and yes, I am familiar with those three universes even if I'm not much of a fan, hence why they made up the core of my argument and I introduced them earlier).

 

Not to mention that not having read some particular work is not the same as not knowing anything about it. I don't need to have read the Epic of Gilgamesh to know it's a foundational example of the Hero's Journey.

 

I would argue against that thesis, since DA does have a self-evident reason to be authentically medieval: authenticity. Placing characters with modern values and ways of thinking in a pre-modern setting, like some glorified Renaissance faire, is one of the most annoying tendencies of contemporary fantasy. It makes the setting feel fake, by copying all of the set dressing and yet none of the substance; in real life, our current moral system has a very intricate historical context.

 

Attention to details, consistency and good worlbuilding can be present not only in soft sci fi but also in fantasy. It's not at all exclusive to hard sci fi. In fact, it would surprise me if there were many works of even the hardest science fiction that could match The Lord of the Rings in attention to detail, consistency and worldbuilding. And that works to its detriment as a literary work, in my opinion. My interest rests firmly in good storytelling, not in good science.

 

I'd say your approach to concepts is flawed. You're looking at the results instead of looking at the process, while it's the process which is important.

ME doesn't need to copy-paste "remotely hard" seminal works to be just as hard as them, just like you don't need to have the same engine or same hull as another car to be run just as fast. ME just needs to logically follow its own premises.

Samely, while I would agree that the "modern mentality" is a real problem in the DA universe, it does stem from how it replicates too much our own social mores and not how these mores are out of place in a medieval settings. There IS examples of real-life cultures on Earth that actually had what we would call "modern" values.

I agree with your opinion that putting "our" values and social debates on a different society might feel fake, but I disagree that just because a world is at some sort of "medieval stage", it necessarily has the same culture and values that our own Middle-age had (or, actually "think" that it had ; there was quite a lot of variety even then).

Finally, I completely agree that good worldbuilding and good narrative can be present in everything. But it actually boils down to the exact same thing : attention to details, rigor, logic, consistency. It just happens that in SF, this just ends up as being harder. In all cases, it's always about adhering to your own rules and following them to where they logically lead.


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#463
Gwydden

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Finally, I completely agree that good worldbuilding and good narrative can be present in everything. But it actually boils down to the exact same thing : attention to details, rigor, logic, consistency. It just happens that in SF, this just ends up as being harder. In all cases, it's always about adhering to your own rules and following them to where they logically lead.

I guess our disagreement comes from a mostly semantic distinction between what each of us considers to be "hard sci fi." For me it means that it has a solid grounding in real world science. Whatever its internal consistency, if a science fiction universe has to make up a new element with quasi-magical properties to explain away half of its advanced technology... well, that doesn't sound very much grounded in real science to me. Personally, my biggest pet peeve in this regard are the asari and alien romances in general, which wouldn't make any sense whatsoever in the real world.

 

Moreover, I'd feel inclined to challenge just how internally consistent the series as a whole is, although I'm willing to grant the first game, for the most part, stuck to the rules it set up on its own.



#464
fdrty

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Point being, Thedas is not faux-medieval because of some clever authorial decision, but because it's derivative. Just like Mass Effect as a setting is neither scientifically sound nor particularly futuristic in any way other than set-dressing because it's derivative. The best settings are not the ones that are bursting with pointless details, but the ones that have a unique personality and service the other elements in the story, such as plot, characters and themes. And you only obtain such a setting through careful design and application of it.

 

But that's the thing: DA is medieval fantasy, not medieval history. The entire point is to deviate from what historical societies may have been like. That is why magic exists, and why it is formative to the societies and the geopolitics of Thedas. Tevinter are not Rome, even if they are inspired by them. Orlais is not France, even if they are inspired by them. Because these cultures inhabit a world in which is metaphysically different - and, as such, those worlds are ontologically different. This is why I find it pointless to say 'why does the game not represent medieval values?' Because you are measuring a world which is different to our on an ontological level on its closeness to our own, ignoring the effect magic, the blight, titans, and all the rest may have on that.

 

It is unfair to say that Bioware do not design their worlds carefully, from a lore perspective. Other than perhaps the ME3 ending. And, of course, everything we make is informed in some way by the unique experiences and the structures in which we produce them. Nothing is made in a vaccuum, even the very language we use to express ourselves is infused with meaning and ideas which we do not recognise. The best way to see this is, say, in French, where nouns are assigned gender. Is that not potentially from some gender bias, and does it not reinforce certain biases?

 

Mass Effect is scientifically sound enough, that the only people who really have issues with the mechanics of its science are usually pedants or experts. The literary function of the fantastical elements are not harmed by the world's failure to adhere to current science - they're writers, not theorietical physicists.

 

Or, rather, science fiction is not about the minutiae of how this or that interacts, and how close that is to our knowledge of real world science: deviating from real world science is precisely what makes it science fiction. Or, in other words, science fiction is more than fiction which happens to be about scientific things. This is why facetiousness never wins arguments.

 

But this is a story we're talking about. Stories' aren't real. They're artificial, constructed entities. So everything that is in the game is a choice someone somewhere made. I'm less interested in how plausible Thedas is and more in why it is the way it is from a Doylian perspective. And my guess is that the reason is that they didn't even think of making it more authentic, and that even if they had they wouldn't have had the knowledge or the will and interest to pursue it, since applying it is not considered fashionable nor necessary in this day and age.

 

I struggle to see your issue with the choices made. Of course how plausible Thedas is is important to how it's made, because plausibility is something every fantasy world strives towards.

 

Also, what do you mean by 'authentic'? Does the world seem false, to you? Is it not usual for the player to accept some level of inauthenticity in fantasy, given both the artifice of playing a game, and the fantastical elements? In other words, why could so many players suspend their disbelief, and not you? Do you consider that the fault for this may be with you, as a player? Are you playing the game in a sensible way? Are you carrying some generic bias into the game, which prevents you from enjoying it?

 

Sometimes, when people can't enjoy things, it's their fault. But because nobody thinks they're wrong (self-serving bias) or are incapable of introspection, they instead blame the text, as though it was supposed to be created specifically for them.

 

I'm not making a historical argument. Yes, it is theoretically possible that a medievalesque-looking society with 21st century values could exist. Yes, magic messes up the equation tremendously.

 

Bioware does this very well at times, but others they just copy and paste whatever's hip from some mainstream speculative fiction franchise (or from their previous games...), which just hurts their storytelling.

 

My post didn't accuse you of making a historical argument. I accused you of bias. I almost typed 'ethnocentric' in my first post, but that could have seemed inflammatory, or accusatory, which isn't what I'm trying to do.

 

Dragon Age does not have 21st century values. Or is there some stance on magic in the real world? Sure, on some issues, like gay rights, it is far more progressive than our world. But it is only medieval in its aesthetic. Andrastianism is more like Islam, Orlais is more like Imperial China, Fereldan is more like medieval France, Tevinter is more like Tsarist Russia. And, given that civilisation in DA has existed for far longer than in our world, they are bound too be more progressive or permissive in some aspects.

 

But that last point you made is so unfair and so unsubstantiated, that it kind of supports my initial feelings that you were biased.



#465
Akka le Vil

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I guess our disagreement comes from a mostly semantic distinction between what each of us considers to be "hard sci fi." For me it means that it has a solid grounding in real world science. Whatever its internal consistency, if a science fiction universe has to make up a new element with quasi-magical properties to explain away half of its advanced technology... well, that doesn't sound very much grounded in real science to me. Personally, my biggest pet peeve in this regard are the asari and alien romances in general, which wouldn't make any sense whatsoever in the real world.

 

Moreover, I'd feel inclined to challenge just how internally consistent the series as a whole is, although I'm willing to grant the first game, for the most part, stuck to the rules it set up on its own.

 

It's just the difference between binary and scale, again. It's not "0" or "1", it's shades. As you describes it, there is only non-SF on one side (with absolutely nothing actually not already discovered) and fantasy on the other (if only one imagined element manage to boot a work outside anything even remotely close to "hard"). It's obviously wrong - again, it's a process which is important, not an end result, and it's about degree. If you invent dozens of vaguely defined technobabble things and forget to use them where they would make sense, you're firmly in the soft side. If you invent one single "special rule" and apply it all over your universe in a strict manner, then how exactly does it violate the "hard" definition of applying logic, rigor and scientific method ?

 

Also, I'd like to point that it's actually more impressive and not at all scientifically wrong to have a single element explaining half of the new SF technology. Just look at electricity today - it powers the vast majority of our own technology, from displaying moving picture on flat and slim surfaces, to moving vehicles at hundred of km per hour, to sending communication to the other side of the globe, to allowing you to listen to music, and many, many more things. And it's just as magical-looking for someone a few centuries back than Element Zero is to us.

 

As for the internal consistency of the serie... well, that's the main reason why I loved the first two and hated the last one. This whole "hard vs soft" discussion stemmed from a number of us saying that we felt Chris L'Étoile was the true genius in ME due to his hard SF tendencies, and he leaving the team led to a severe turn toward space magic which destroyed what made the ME universe special compared to the "high-fantasy" other SF franchise.



#466
Killroy

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Why is this thread so long? It isn't complicated.

 

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1AsP4yP.jpg

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#467
Degs29

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Bioware is a victim of it's own success.  Everyone had high expectations of them to wrap up ME3 properly and they unfortunately stumbled.  ME3 could also have profited from another year in development.

 

I think the criticism of ME3 has been too harsh, and I think people have carried a grudge for far too long.  Despite my own problems with ME3, I will definitely be getting ME:A.  No doubt in my mind.  I have yet to play a Bioware game that hasn't deserved its price tag, barring their ridiculously priced DLC.  I found DA:I to be a masterpiece of a game and I'm hoping ME:A has the same success.

 

That said, I do have concerns about the game.  I can't remember what interview it was, but the interviewer posed a question regarding features being stripped out of the game, and the response left me feeling uncomfortable.  Are they stripping features out to meet the release date?  Are they stripping features out so they can introduce them as paid DLC instead?  Frankly, EA has proven many times that they can't be trusted, so giving them the benefit of the doubt here is very difficult.

 

There are also rumours of multiple people leaving the production team; more so than is typical.  Most people want to see their work through to fruition.  To have many people leaving is worrisome.  It suggests the game is going in such a direction that they disagreed with.  Or perhaps that the work environment is toxic.  In fact, the previous interview I mentioned also mentioned something along these lines, where it sounded like the work environment was far from optimal.

 

None of this means the game is in trouble.  I have faith in the game, but that doesn't mean I don't have concerns.


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#468
von uber

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1AsP4yP.jpg

 

 

Given how protective they are, I'm always surprised GW have never sued.



#469
AlanC9

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GW?

#470
Laughing_Man

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GW?

 

Gurgling whales.



#471
von uber

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GW?

 

Games Workshop.



#472
Spectr61

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Garrus Worship.

#473
Monk

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Why is this thread so long? It isn't complicated.

Spoiler

 

Actually the answer to your question's simpler still: differing opinions. Everyone has their own take, even if you can't fathom them. Because like for me, i wouldn't put these characters as the reason for the concern, more as the various scenes they were put in which would explain some of the other people's worry.



#474
AlanC9

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Games Workshop.


At the risk of sounding clueless, was that a Warhammer reference?

#475
straykat

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At the risk of sounding clueless, was that a Warhammer reference?

 

They sue or used to sue a lot.