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[Cyberstrike nTo]

This is something i've noticed yet I don't necessarily know why.

 

The Mass Effect trilogy has been one of the more consistent trilogies in terms of quality (outside of ME3s hiccups) around in recent years yet for some reason the fanbase seems to have almost zero hope for Andromeda.

 

Franchises like Dark Souls, Final Fantasy, Witcher, Deus Ex still manage to conjure up hype yet they are way less consistent than the Mass Effect trilogy, what gives?

Is it modern Bioware or the game series itself? I would understand fears with Modern Bioware but not the game series itself, Mass Effect 1, 2 and 3 are all legitimately fantastic games.

 

Because people want to tear down BioWare and build up God's new gift to gaming CDPR and then after a while they will tear down CDPR and build up a new company, and so on.

[Iakus]

 

I've often mentioned that the entire premise of Mass Effect 1 is ridiculous because the conduit adds nothing of value. The beginning of the game makes you think that it's something that can bring the Reapers back which provides reason to chase after Saren but the reality is that it was just a shortcut to a very public area of the Citadel. Sovereign knew that Saren just needed to access the master control panel, so why bother hunting for the conduit? He had Saren throw away Spectre status and ruined the element of surprise they had for literally nothing.

 

but at no point in the game can I actually question this, and as soon as you figure out the conduit is a pointless plot device the game is pushing you towards going to stop Saren.

Only true if the bolded was true.

 

But if Sovereign already knew all that, then why was he sending Saren off to access beacons?  And a Cipher to understand them?  

 

No, Sovereign had no idea why the signal wasn't working, and was stumbling about trying to figure out what the "Conduit" was, just like Shepard.  The difference was, Sovereign and Saren had a few more pieces of the puzzle.

 

And remember, all the strange, incoherent, and nonsensical aspects of ME3's endings were part of an attempt to force the player into performing truly horrific acts in order to "save" the galaxy.   If you're going to railroad players into that kind of situation, the logic has to be air-tight.  You get absolutely no slack in those situations.

[Cyonan]

Only true if the bolded was true.

 

But if Sovereign already knew all that, then why was he sending Saren off to access beacons?  And a Cipher to understand them?  

 

No, Sovereign had no idea why the signal wasn't working, and was stumbling about trying to figure out what the "Conduit" was, just like Shepard.  The difference was, Sovereign and Saren had a few more pieces of the puzzle.

 

The Reapers built the Citadel, and you're telling me that they didn't know about the override button?

 

Sorry but that doesn't add up. The signal was only sent to the Keepers to tell them to activate the Citadel, but the Reapers still knew how to manually do it because they built the damn thing. It would have been more productive even to just send Saren to scan the Keepers to figure out why they weren't getting the signal which apparently nobody had a problem with Shep doing.

 

Even if Sovereign needs the signal he's still an idiot because he failed at basic debugging of a system that isn't working. Even first year IT students are taught you test the easiest parts of the system first, not go after the most complex one. A scan of the Keepers using Reaper tech should have revealed that they were tampered with to not receive the signal.

 

Figuring out why their signal stopped working and what the conduit is is secondary to actually bringing the main Reaper fleet back while you still have some element of surprise. After that you have 50000 years to figure out why the signal didn't work and correct it.

[Iakus]

The Reapers built the Citadel, and you're telling me that they didn't know about the override button?

 

Sorry but that doesn't add up. The signal was only sent to the Keepers to tell them to activate the Citadel, but the Reapers still knew how to manually do it because they built the damn thing. It would have been more productive even to just send Saren to scan the Keepers to figure out why they weren't getting the signal which apparently nobody had a problem with Shep doing.

 

Even if Sovereign needs the signal he's still an idiot because he failed at basic debugging of a system that isn't working. Even first year IT students are taught you test the easiest parts of the system first, not go after the most complex one. A scan of the Keepers using Reaper tech should have revealed that they were tampered with to not receive the signal.

 

Figuring out why their signal stopped working and what the conduit is is secondary to actually bringing the main Reaper fleet back while you still have some element of surprise. After that you have 50000 years to figure out why the signal didn't work and correct it.

All Sovereign knew was there was some sort of breakdown at some point.  Either with the signal, the Keepers, or the equipment the Keepers use.  Saren may be able to do some limited investigation on the Citadel (though he'd have to be circumspect about it), but I doubt he would be able to tell what exactly was done to the Keepers and determine if it could be reversed.  Presumably he was able to figure out Prothean interference was the culprit this way.

 

Thus the interest in the beacons.  And a discovery that "The Conduit" was responsible for making sure the Reapers could not return.  But what is the Conduit?  How did it block the Reapers' return?  Could it be used to undo the damage?

[Cyonan]

All Sovereign knew was there was some sort of breakdown at some point.  Either with the signal, the Keepers, or the equipment the Keepers use.  Saren may be able to do some limited investigation on the Citadel (though he'd have to be circumspect about it), but I doubt he would be able to tell what exactly was done to the Keepers and determine if it could be reversed.  Presumably he was able to figure out Prothean interference was the culprit this way.

 

Thus the interest in the beacons.  And a discovery that "The Conduit" was responsible for making sure the Reapers could not return.  But what is the Conduit?  How did it block the Reapers' return?  Could it be used to undo the damage?

 

Which still means that Sovereign fails at basic debugging.

 

Shep is allowed to just randomly walk around scanning Keepers on the Citadel. Despite the fact that you're not supposed to disturb them, it seems that nobody questions Spectres doing it. Chorban was also able to figure out the general idea of how the Keepers work using what is highly primitive technology compared to the Reapers. Again, it makes no sense that the beings which genetically engineered the Keepers couldn't properly scan and assess problems with their own designs.

 

However failing that the next thing you'd check is the equipment they use to activate the Citadel upon which you'd discover surprise, it's still working. At this step nothing else is necessary because the Reapers are back before anybody was alerted to them.

 

The beacons are basically something that should be investigated at a later date to figure out how the Protheans managed to mess up the signal, but making the system work again is priority #1.

 

All of this could have been avoided if the conduit was actually something that was actively stopping the Reapers from coming back.

[Iakus]

Which still means that Sovereign fails at basic debugging.

 

Shep is allowed to just randomly walk around scanning Keepers on the Citadel. Despite the fact that you're not supposed to disturb them, it seems that nobody questions Spectres doing it. Chorban was also able to figure out the general idea of how the Keepers work using what is highly primitive technology compared to the Reapers. Again, it makes no sense that the beings which genetically engineered the Keepers couldn't properly scan and assess problems with their own designs.

 

However failing that the next thing you'd check is the equipment they use to activate the Citadel upon which you'd discover surprise, it's still working. At this step nothing else is necessary because the Reapers are back before anybody was alerted to them.

 

The beacons are basically something that should be investigated at a later date to figure out how the Protheans managed to mess up the signal, but making the system work again is priority #1.

 

All of this could have been avoided if the conduit was actually something that was actively stopping the Reapers from coming back.

Chorban got information that pretty much confirmed Vigil's statements about the Keepers.  Including that they seemed to be waiting for a signal.  But there is no mention of him being able to figure out they were blocked from receiving that signal.

 

In the end, manual override is what they ended up doing.  But (for whatever reason) Sovereign had to do it himself.  No it's never explained why.  I can only surmise that Saren was not compatible with whatever interface the Keepers use. 

 

Maybe it makes no sense that Sovereign couldn't run a diagnostic on the Keepers.  But then, it makes even less sense that the Catalyst can't.  Or that the Catalyst required them to open the relay to begin with...

[Killroy]

I've also provided an example of terrible writing, one that people often just shrug off. Keep in mind ME1 is often praised around here as having the best story of the trilogy, and that story relies on something which makes absolutely no sense at all.

But here in reality there are levels of quality. It's not just good and bad. There's also great, and terrible, and meh, and WOWEE ZOWEE! The ending of ME3 is extremely bad because it's offensively stupid and poorly thought out. Plot contrivances in ME1 don't come close to that level of terribad.
 

My whole point here is that if you're going to throw ME3 under the bus for bad writing, we ought to be throwing a lot more than just ME3 under there. I'm not actually trying to write off the ME3 ending or excuse how badly done it was.

That's exactly what you're doing. You're saying we should stop talking about how terrible the ending of ME3 was because some of the stuff in other games is kinda stupid. That's why I called your argument a cop out.
 

but ME3 is the thing that gets all the focus around here because it was the final culmination of a series of poorly written plot lines.

ME1 had poorly written plot contrivances, but it was a satisfying story that built an entire franchise. Comparing the writing of ME1 to the writing of ME3 as somehow equal is just objectively stupid. 

[Miserybot]

are you talking about

[Cyonan]

Chorban got information that pretty much confirmed Vigil's statements about the Keepers.  Including that they seemed to be waiting for a signal.  But there is no mention of him being able to figure out they were blocked from receiving that signal.

 

In the end, manual override is what they ended up doing.  But (for whatever reason) Sovereign had to do it himself.  No it's never explained why.  I can only surmise that Saren was not compatible with whatever interface the Keepers use. 

 

Maybe it makes no sense that Sovereign couldn't run a diagnostic on the Keepers.  But then, it makes even less sense that the Catalyst can't.  Or that the Catalyst required them to open the relay to begin with...

 

We also know that Chorban's equipment is primitive compared to the Reapers. Since we aren't able to get any decent research into the Keepers, our tech that is capable of scanning them is very limited on top of the fact that they were designed to prevent scanning. The Reapers of course would already be aware of how all of that works.

 

If we assume that Prothean interference changed enough so that Saren did scan them for Sovereign and didn't get any decent readings that still doesn't explain why they didn't just do manual override at that point. Searching for the conduit is just stupid when you haven't tested the Citadel to make sure it still works.

 

It makes even less sense that the Catalyst couldn't have figured all this out or even just triggered the Citadel itself, but I'm working purely on ME1 established lore to point out where it made no sense. It gets 10 times worse when we start including the later games =P

 

In either case my whole point is that I just pointed out a lot of things in Mass Effect 1 that make no sense, but every time I do somebody defends the game tooth and nail.

 

When one points out that the Catalyst also makes no sense, people jump in to agree how stupid that whole scene is(which it is stupid. I don't want to try to claim that it isn't).

 

That's exactly what you're doing. You're saying we should stop talking about how terrible the ending of ME3 was because some of the stuff in other games is kinda stupid. That's why I called your argument a cop out.

 

No I'm not. At no point have I said we should stop talking about the ending to ME3.

 

My point is and always has been that we ought to be talking about all of the bad writing in the series, not just one specific thing. I have stated this multiple times now.

 

They can avoid future problems with the series' writing if they better plan things out from the very start of it. Taking out the Catalyst(the thing everybody complains about, with good reason) scene entirely doesn't fix all of the problems with the ending, it just removes the problem most obvious to us at the time.

[Iakus]

We also know that Chorban's equipment is primitive compared to the Reapers. Since we aren't able to get any decent research into the Keepers, our tech that is capable of scanning them is very limited on top of the fact that they were designed to prevent scanning. The Reapers of course would already be aware of how all of that works.

 

I'm not sure I understand the point here.  Are you saying Sovereign should have issued Saren a tricorder that scans everything and anything to do with Keepers?

 

 

 

If we assume that Prothean interference changed enough so that Saren did scan them for Sovereign and didn't get any decent readings that still doesn't explain why they didn't just do manual override at that point. Searching for the conduit is just stupid when you haven't tested the Citadel to make sure it still works.

 

Like I said, in the end, that's what they do.  But for whatever reason, Sovereign had to do it, not Saren.

 

 

 

It makes even less sense that the Catalyst couldn't have figured all this out or even just triggered the Citadel itself, but I'm working purely on ME1 established lore to point out where it made no sense. It gets 10 times worse when we start including the later games =P
 

Agreed

 

 

 

In either case my whole point is that I just pointed out a lot of things in Mass Effect 1 that make no sense, but every time I do somebody defends the game tooth and nail.
When one points out that the Catalyst also makes no sense, people jump in to agree how stupid that whole scene is(which it is stupid. I don't want to try to claim that it isn't).
 

I guess that just shows how much MORE stupid the Catalyst is.

[Fandango]

I guess that just shows how much MORE stupid the Catalyst is.

 

Yep.

[Il Divo]

I'm not sure I understand the point here.  Are you saying Sovereign should have issued Saren a tricorder that scans everything and anything to do with Keepers?

 

 

I think he's saying it's ridiculous that Chorban was able to detect something off about the Citadel, but that Sovereign (an actual Reaper) couldn't do the same. Although there's a good point to be made there too that Sovereign probably should have had something on hand that would let Saren do a quick sweep on the Keepers. 

[Cyonan]

I'm not sure I understand the point here.  Are you saying Sovereign should have issued Saren a tricorder that scans everything and anything to do with Keepers?

 

Since the Reapers engineered the Keepers, they should have been able to give Saren something to scan them.

 

It's not some special catch all thing like the tricorder is from Star Trek, but it's a specific device created by the Reapers designed to scan something engineered by the Reapers.

 

It'd be like if we didn't have any diagnostic tools for computer hardware. That would just be stupid of us to do.

 

Like I said, in the end, that's what they do.  But for whatever reason, Sovereign had to do it, not Saren.

 

The problem in the writing here is that basically the entire game happens before they do this, when in reality this should have been one of the first things they did.

 

Of course people will say "Well you wouldn't have a game if that happened", but that just suggests that the conduit should have been written as something that was actually important. Had that happened, then they would have had good reason to actually go after it when they did. As it stands right now, it was a highly incompetent move. At least on Sovereign's part, because we can say that Saren might not have been told everything. There's no excuse for the actual Reaper not knowing, though.

 

Which maybe the Reapers were highly incompetent. The Catalyst is certainly an argument in favour of that idea =P

[Ashevajak]

Every time you show genuine interest or enthusiasm on BSN, you lose Hipster Points.

And as everyone knows. when your HP reaches zero, you die.

[straykat]

Every time you show genuine interest or enthusiasm on BSN, you lose Hipster Points.

And as everyone knows. when your HP reaches zero, you die.

 

I must be Undead.

 

muhaha

[TevinterSupremacist]

Every time you show genuine interest or enthusiasm on BSN, you lose Hipster Points.
 

Yeah, obviously only someone pretentious can be skeptical of a company's products based on their past experiences with them.

[straykat]

I was mostly happy as a fan until DAI. Now I'm cynical with the best worst of them. 

 

Everyone's got their tipping point. I suppose it was ME3 for many people, but I liked it...more or less.

[themikefest]

Chorban got information that pretty much confirmed Vigil's statements about the Keepers.  Including that they seemed to be waiting for a signal.  But there is no mention of him being able to figure out they were blocked from receiving that signal.

Too bad the asari didn't to do that after finding the citadel. Or did they? Don't know.

[Iakus]

I think he's saying it's ridiculous that Chorban was able to detect something off about the Citadel, but that Sovereign (an actual Reaper) couldn't do the same. 

Sovereign wouldn't have fit in the corridor....

 

 

Although there's a good point to be made there too that Sovereign probably should have had something on hand that would let Saren do a quick sweep on the Keepers.

Why?

[Iakus]

 

The problem in the writing here is that basically the entire game happens before they do this, when in reality this should have been one of the first things they did.

 

Of course people will say "Well you wouldn't have a game if that happened", but that just suggests that the conduit should have been written as something that was actually important. Had that happened, then they would have had good reason to actually go after it when they did. As it stands right now, it was a highly incompetent move. At least on Sovereign's part, because we can say that Saren might not have been told everything. There's no excuse for the actual Reaper not knowing, though.

 

Which maybe the Reapers were highly incompetent. The Catalyst is certainly an argument in favour of that idea =P

So should Belloch have already found the Ark of the Covenant before Indiana Jones even reaches Cairo?

[Kroitz]

And as everyone knows. when your HP reaches zero, you die.

 

Or get 9 warning points and leave the BSN. Whatever hoppens first.

[Cyonan]

So should Belloch have already found the Ark of the Covenant before Indiana Jones even reaches Cairo?

 

It's been way too long since I've seen that movie but I assume it's set up in a way that would make me say probably.

 

The thing with Mass Effect is that there's an easy fix to everything I've been saying, which was to simply make it so that the conduit was actually important.

 

Literally nothing else needs changing. The whole reason none of it makes any sense is because the conduit isn't needed for any of it to actually work. It basically serves no reason except to send us in a massive circle.

[Killroy]

No I'm not. At no point have I said we should stop talking about the ending to ME3.

 

My point is and always has been that we ought to be talking about all of the bad writing in the series, not just one specific thing. I have stated this multiple times now.

 

They can avoid future problems with the series' writing if they better plan things out from the very start of it. Taking out the Catalyst(the thing everybody complains about, with good reason) scene entirely doesn't fix all of the problems with the ending, it just removes the problem most obvious to us at the time.

 

That's even worse. You want us all to treat the terrible writing of the ending as though it's the same as the questionable writing of the Conduit and such. That makes no sense. 

[Iakus]

 

Literally nothing else needs changing. The whole reason none of it makes any sense is because the conduit isn't needed for any of it to actually work. It basically serves no reason except to send us in a massive circle.

I found the circle ironic.

 

At first, the Conduit wasn't important. But Saren frakked up and got his Spectre status revoked, and then it became vital for him to find.

 

I don't know if you've ever played Planescape: Torment, but I suspect you'd find the part going into the endgame absolutely infuriating.

 

Spoiler

given the portal to the Fortress of Regrets turns out to be in the very same room where you woke up at the start of the game.

 

"I regret that I wandered all over the Planes when the damn portal was right here when I FIRST woke up"  

[Il Divo]

Sovereign wouldn't have fit in the corridor....

 

Why?

 

He has an agent for that - Saren. 

 

Because the Keepers are the ones who actually activate the Citadel beacon and would be pretty much the starting point for any investigation as to why the signal isn't working. Given what we're told in ME1, the issue would be either with the Keepers themselves or a technical issue with whatever magic button they press to open the Citadel relay.