935 réponses à ce sujet

[Il Divo]

I found the circle ironic.

 

At first, the Conduit wasn't important. But Saren frakked up and got his Spectre status revoked, and then it became vital for him to find.

 

I don't know if you've ever played Planescape: Torment, but I suspect you'd find the part going into the endgame absolutely infuriating.

 

Spoiler

given the portal to the Fortress of Regrets turns out to be in the very same room where you woke up at the start of the game.

 

"I regret that I wandered all over the Planes when the damn portal was right here when I FIRST woke up"  

 

I'm not sure I'd put them in the same category. 

 

Planescape Torment's ending is ironic because we had no legit reason to suspect what we were searching for would be at our origin point. From what I remember of Torment (it's been a while), we had to follow a trail of bread crumbs before we could figure out where the end to the journey was.

 

The Saren plot point is moronic, by contrast, because, for all of the Reaper build-up, they ignored one of the most obvious breadcrumb trails to the Citadel problem. Coming full circle can make for a great plot point, just not if it involves turning your villains into fools. 

 

For the two scenarios you're suggesting to be equivalent, we would need the Nameless One to ignore all the writing on his back from the game's start, then have somebody basically say at the end "hey, that writing on your back is the key to finding your mortality!". 

[In Exile]

The keepers don't make sense. A person can physically summon reapers from the Citadel. Somehow, the Reapers don't design the Citadel to operate remotely but DO design a servant race to operate remotely. Pretending for a second this comes even remotely close to making sense, there's no reason why Saren can't physically walk up to the Reaper summoning array and summon the Reapers. All he needs is a sufficiently convincing lie.

[In Exile]

I found the circle ironic.

At first, the Conduit wasn't important. But Saren frakked up and got his Spectre status revoked, and then it became vital for him to find.

I don't know if you've ever played Planescape: Torment, but I suspect you'd find the part going into the endgame absolutely infuriating.

Spoiler

given the portal to the Fortress of Regrets turns out to be in the very same room where you woke up at the start of the game.

"I regret that I wandered all over the Planes when the damn portal was right here when I FIRST woke up"

But that's just stupider. There's no reason for Saren to attack Eden Prime with an army of geth. It's total nonsense. He could just literally walk up to the Reaper summoning button and summon himself some Reapers.

[Cyonan]

That's even worse. You want us all to treat the terrible writing of the ending as though it's the same as the questionable writing of the Conduit and such. That makes no sense. 

 

Again not I'm not. You'd do well to stop trying to read into my intentions and actually read my words, because you're doing a poor job of reading my intentions.

 

Yes the ending to ME3 was probably the worst writing in the series, but it's not the only place where it had problems. We're going to get a far better game if we point out all of the criticisms of Mass Effect to BioWare rather than simply focusing on the worst area over and over again for 4 years.

 

Right now they're looking to start a new story arc in Mass Effect, so I feel it's rather prudent to point out the issues caused by the first game because planning ahead is key for them right now if they intend for these arcs to reach beyond the first game.

 

What makes no sense to me is how people around here act like I'm not supposed to criticize anything BioWare did pre-Mass Effect 2. Every time I point out a problem with an older game, without fail somebody will jump in to tell me all about how it's "not a problem".

 

I found the circle ironic.

 

At first, the Conduit wasn't important. But Saren frakked up and got his Spectre status revoked, and then it became vital for him to find.

 

I don't know if you've ever played Planescape: Torment, but I suspect you'd find the part going into the endgame absolutely infuriating.

 

Spoiler

given the portal to the Fortress of Regrets turns out to be in the very same room where you woke up at the start of the game.

 

"I regret that I wandered all over the Planes when the damn portal was right here when I FIRST woke up"  

 

The problem in Mass Effect is that it was written so that the villain should have known better, which makes them simply look incompetent at best. This is a villain that's supposed to have wiped out countless civilizations, so one would except them to have a certain level of competence at doing literally the only thing they exist for and have been doing for millions of years.

 

I'm not sure how PST is set up, and it's entirely possible it somehow makes sense within the context of that story. The whole conduit thing doesn't make sense within the context of Mass Effect 1 unfortunately.

[AlanC9]

Every time you show genuine interest or enthusiasm on BSN, you lose Hipster Points.
And as everyone knows. when your HP reaches zero, you die.

Right. No way I'd have survived my post count if I hadn't moved to the East Village back in '94.

[AlanC9]

What makes no sense to me is how people around here act like I'm not supposed to criticize anything BioWare did pre-Mass Effect 2. Every time I point out a problem with an older game, without fail somebody will jump in to tell me all about how it's "not a problem".

There's a selection bias at work here. Players who really did have a problem with ME1's illogic and incoherence are not very likely to still be with the series after all this time. The players who are left either have low enough standards for ME1 to have passed them (though the later games might not have), or liked ME1 despite the illogic and incoherence.

PS:T wasn't a problem and isn't very relevant; the PC has no memory and no way to perceive that the thing he's looking for later was in a place he'd already been.

[Cyonan]

There's a selection bias at work here. Players who really did have a problem with ME1's illogic and incoherence are not very likely to still be with the series after all this time. The players who are left either have low enough standards for ME1 to have passed them (though the later games might not have), or liked ME1 despite the illogic and incoherence.

PS:T wasn't a problem and isn't very relevant; the PC has no memory and no way to perceive that the thing he's looking for later was in a place he'd already been.

 

True

 

I suppose I find it weird since I like to point out places where I felt the developer can do better even though Mass Effect remains one of my favourite games of all time despite the problems I point out.

 

There's not a game out there I've played that I can't give criticisms of.

[Sartoz]

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My two cents.

A quick scan in the Mass Effect Wiki leaves me as confused as ever as to the origins of the Keepers and the Citadel. There is no mention (that I encountered) that the Reapers bio-engineered the keepers.

 

However, we can reconstruct, their "creation" with some reasonable accuracy.

 

- The Catalyst was created by the Leviathans to solve a problem.

- The Catalyst created pawns that spread throughout the galaxy to study civilizations.

- The Catalyst found a solution for the organic-synthetic conflict

- The Catalyst's solution took the form of the Reapers.

- The Catalyst turned on its creators, processed them and turned them into the first Reapers, now known as the Harbinger

- The Catalyst commanded the Reapers to build the Relays to speed up the development of civilizations

 

- The Catalyst commanded the Reapers to build the Citadel.                                 <== a reasonable conclusion I think

- The Catalyst commanded the Reapers to bio-engineer the Keepers to maintain the Citadel. <==     "

 

Moving on:

- A few cycles before the present one, the Catalyst became aware of a concept to destroy the Reapers = Crucible.

- One option for Shep is to become the new Reaper Master AI, if Control is chosen.

 

That last item is crucial. It tells me that the Reapers are controlled by "a Borg Queen" = Catalyst. Therefore, the Reapers are not individuals. Any speculation that the Reapers are "self aware and in control" is faulty. Also, note that the Catalyst AI built a system to pursue its solution via the Reapers (pawns). I doubt that an AI would give them independence. It must be in control at all times in order to achieve its objective.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[straykat]

 

There's not a game out there I've played that I can't give criticisms of.

 

Haven't played any Metroid games, I take it. 

[AlanC9]

The keepers don't make sense. A person can physically summon reapers from the Citadel. Somehow, the Reapers don't design the Citadel to operate remotely but DO design a servant race to operate remotely. Pretending for a second this comes even remotely close to making sense, there's no reason why Saren can't physically walk up to the Reaper summoning array and summon the Reapers. All he needs is a sufficiently convincing lie.

Hell, he could just break something.

[AlanC9]

Moving on:
- A few cycles before the present one, the Catalyst became aware of a concept to destroy the Reapers = Crucible.
- One option for Shep is to become the new Reaper Master AI, if Control is chosen.
 
That last item is crucial. It tells me that the Reapers are controlled by "a Borg Queen" = Catalyst. Therefore, the Reapers are not individuals. Any speculation that the Reapers are "self aware and in control" is faulty. Also, note that the Catalyst AI built a system to pursue its solution via the Reapers (pawns). I doubt that an AI would give them independence. It must be in control at all times in order to achieve its objective.

This isn't necessarily true. The Reapers could also be controlled via an imprint at construction rather than by continuous real-time commands. Sort of like indoctrination without the decay; they think they're independent but what they want just happens to be what the Catalyst wants. The Crucible restructures the Reapers with a new imprint.

[AlanC9]

Edit: DP

[AngryFrozenWater]

Most people believe that the Intelligence thinks that the cyclical harvests are the ultimate solution to the conflict between organics and synthetics. I think it is just a duct tape solution and that the Intelligence knew that.

 

The Catalyst tells Shepard that the cyclical harvests were a solution to its problem. However, the leviathans claims that the Intelligence didn't succeed yet and that it was looking for something.

Shepard: But what's the point of all these harvests?

Leviathan: The Intelligence has one purpose: preservation of life. That purpose has not been fulfilled. It directed the reapers to create the mass relays - to speed the time between cycles for greatest efficiency. The galaxy itself became an experiment. Evolution its tool.

Shepard: Will it ever end?

Leviathan: Unknown. Until the Intelligence finds what it is looking for, the harvest will continue.

So, either the above means that it is looking for something unrelated to its purpose, or it is not satisfied with the solution. If its purpose has not been fulfilled then it may still be looking for a better solution that fits its purpose. That suits the context of the above conversation.

In the ending Shepard finds out that the Catalyst thinks that synthesis is "the ideal solution". BTW: I dislike the whole synthesis idea, but I cannot reject its train of thought, just because I detest it.

Child: It is the ideal solution. Now that we know it is possible, it is inevitable we will reach synthesis.

From the perspective of the Intelligence it therefor has fulfilled its purpose. That purpose was its task and the reason for its existence. Now that "the ideal solution" has been found there is no reason to continue the cyclical harvests. Given that, the three options of the ending do not bother the Intelligence at all. In fact the Catalyst acts like the perfect tour guide, who tells Shepard what the Crucible is, a bit of its history, and the purpose and implications of its three main functions.

It makes sense that the Intelligence advocates synthesis, because it believes it is "the ideal solution". If Shepard believes that she can do better then it offers the control of its resources. It mentions that it will cease to exist and that it would not like it, but it does not object. If Shepard doesn't need its services anymore then it doesn't object to being destroyed either. It will just stand there and watch if you select destroy. And like good ol' computer logic, it should be OK with control and destroy. After all, it presented Shepard "the ideal solution" and that ended its task.

 

Edit: My preferred choice is still destroy.

[straykat]

That makes it all the more funny. The Catalyst finds the holy grail solution it's been searching for for millions of years. And then I shoot it.

 

For some reason, I'm reminded of a quote from Churchill. "If Hitler invaded hell, I'd side with the devil."

 

I don't care what the Catalyst wants. He's caused too much pain.

[SpaceV3gan]

I am buying the game for the Multiplayer. If it comes with a decent campaign mode, for me that is merely a bonus.

[Sartoz]

I am buying the game for the Multiplayer. If it comes with a decent campaign mode, for me that is merely a bonus.

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You believe, then, that the initial MP with its "3-4 maps"  and 25 AI players (looking at the initial ME3MP) with obvious limited weaponry and potentially dumbed down combat  is worth it?

[Sartoz]

This isn't necessarily true. The Reapers could also be controlled via an imprint at construction rather than by continuous real-time commands. Sort of like indoctrination without the decay; they think they're independent but what they want just happens to be what the Catalyst wants. The Crucible restructures the Reapers with a new imprint.

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That's stretching it a bit, don't y'a think? 

 

From the Intelligence perspective, it only needs to create pawns to fulfill an objective. Giving pawns (Reapers) intellingence + freedom then indoctrinating them during the process is rather overly complex to me. Reapers are tools - organic tools - but only tools under the command of the Catalyst.

 

BTW, the Harvest phase kills people then they are turned into Reapers. Longer than 3-4 minutes and the brain cells decay.  Dead brains don't a thinking Reaper make.

 

Anyway, it's nice to speculate.

[AlanC9]

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You believe, then, that the initial MP with its "3-4 maps" and 25 AI players (looking at the initial ME3MP) with obvious limited weaponry and potentially dumbed down combat is worth it?

Well, if he waits long enough he'll get the free MP DLCs too, assuming that Bio's still running the same business model.

As for Control and Reaper minds, I don't think the Control ending, or anything else about how Reaoers are portrayed, supports your position. A simple swap-out of one set of central AI programming for another doesn't require the light-show and Relay shenanigans which we see happening, and none of the conversations we have with Reapers, or experiences other characters have with Reapers, make your position sound even plausible. OTOH, I've got no real interest in debating this kind of headcanon, since the Reapers aren't coming back. So unless we're talking about this being Bio's true design intent, I'll just say "fine, whatever" and call it a night.

[Lucca_de_Neon]

IMO, Bioware isn't very talented in concepts like exploration and open world, which is why DAI and ME1 are the most boring instances of both series (again, IMO). The amount of interviews in which they mention "exploration" makes me think that it's going to have a very short story and big maps with almost no relevant content to speak of, just like DAI. I prefer a heavy focus on story and characters instead of being trapped in a dull sandbox but i do try to remain positive about this

[Spectr61]

That makes it all the more funny. The Catalyst finds the holy grail solution it's been searching for for millions of years. And then I shoot it.
 
For some reason, I'm reminded of a quote from Churchill. "If Hitler invaded hell, I'd side with the devil."
 
I don't care what the Catalyst wants. He's caused too much pain.

This.

Always, always shoot the starbrat.

[Spectr61]

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You believe, then, that the initial MP with its "3-4 maps"  and 25 AI players (looking at the initial ME3MP) with obvious limited weaponry and potentially dumbed down combat  is worth it?

If you ever played ME3MP or DAIMP you would recognise SpaceV's name and know the answer to this question.

I will be right there with him.

[Wonder Woman]

We're living in a by the numbers world. That's enough reason.

[straykat]

This.

Always, always shoot the starbrat.

 

Oh, i didn't mean shoot the starbrat. I meant Destroy.

 

But either/or, I guess

[In Exile]

IMO, Bioware isn't very talented in concepts like exploration and open world, which is why DAI and ME1 are the most boring instances of both series (again, IMO). The amount of interviews in which they mention "exploration" makes me think that it's going to have a very short story and big maps with almost no relevant content to speak of, just like DAI. I prefer a heavy focus on story and characters instead of being trapped in a dull sandbox but i do try to remain positive about this

 

It's just not the same team of designers, being done out of Montreal. I don't know how much of the ME3 team transferred over, but despite the label and brand it's not the Bioware we're familiar with usually.

[themikefest]

That makes it all the more funny. The Catalyst finds the holy grail solution it's been searching for for millions of years. And then I shoot it.

What's really funny is that its the organics that find the solution without realizing its a solution until its hooked up to the Citadel and dumb dumb says its the ideal solution.

 

I too shoot the tube. I have no reason to choose the blue or green