935 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabraxal]

But that's my point. BioWare isn't good at exploration. There's no reason to assume the new team, which up to now has only done MP and a corridor-shooter DLC, will knock exploration out of the park.
 

DAI doesn't have exploration because there's nothing to find. DAI has a series of boring vacations. 

 

"Hey, what's that over there?"

"It's nothing."

"Hey, what's that over there?"

"It's nothing."

"Hey, what's that over there?"

"It's still nothing."

 

Maybe to you, but I found the exploration in DA:I to be fantastic.  I would get lost just looking at the ruins or wondering around just to see what else is there.  There is more to a world than things to kill or pick up, and DA:I's design manages to create a realistic feeling world that exudes a deep sense of actual history.  Maybe that kind of exploration isn't for you, but it still is exploration. 

 

I hope Bioware isn't listening too closely to a lot of these complaints or a lot of the small details that you can find will suddenly not be there because they wouldn't think it worth it to bother with.  Much of my joy, especially on my later runs, has been discovering the small and often subtle details that I had missed previously.  So saying there is nothing is simply not true.

[AlanC9]

But that's my point. BioWare isn't good at exploration. There's no reason to assume the new team, which up to now has only done MP and a corridor-shooter DLC, will knock exploration out of the park.

Perhaps. But is there any reason to assume that they'll do worse than the old team?

[Iakus]

Maybe to you, but I found the exploration in DA:I to be fantastic.  I would get lost just looking at the ruins or wondering around just to see what else is there.  There is more to a world than things to kill or pick up, and DA:I's design manages to create a realistic feeling world that exudes a deep sense of actual history.  Maybe that kind of exploration isn't for you, but it still is exploration. 

 

I hope Bioware isn't listening too closely to a lot of these complaints or a lot of the small details that you can find will suddenly not be there because they wouldn't think it worth it to bother with.  Much of my joy, especially on my later runs, has been discovering the small and often subtle details that I had missed previously.  So saying there is nothing is simply not true.

I think part of what makes wandering around exploring in at least some of DAI's zone s is the insane respawn timer in some places.

 

I mean, it's hard to appreciate the beauty of your surroundings when you have wolves, bandits, or even bears crawling up our @$$ every time you turn around.

[Iakus]

Hey now, walking through the ruins and finding mutilated bodies around along with the few ruins scattered throughout was quite an experience to me... granted Jaws was astounding, but I think the Exalted Plains gets way too much of a bad rap.  I think the Forbidden Oasis is probably the one, that while interesting to look at, seems disconnected from the rest of the world in such a way I do not get much added back into the lore or story as compared to every other zone. 

 

As for the endings of ME3... refuse, reload, headcanon victory, Citadel celebration with only two lines having to be ignored.  That is my canon.  And no, you cannot change my mind! 

Exalted Plains was such a missed opportunity.  I was anticipating exploring the reasons for the civil war, elven history, Aside from some elven stuff I just...didn't feel it.  I was just going around ghostbusting.

[AlanC9]

Maybe to you, but I found the exploration in DA:I to be fantastic.  I would get lost just looking at the ruins or wondering around just to see what else is there.  There is more to a world than things to kill or pick up, and DA:I's design manages to create a realistic feeling world that exudes a deep sense of actual history.  Maybe that kind of exploration isn't for you, but it still is exploration.

This made me realize that we don't really have a good sense of what the ME:A team thinks exploration is about yet. A lot of DAI was about mastering terrain that's difficult to navigate. You knew where you wanted to go but physically getting there was an issue.

This could be repeated in ME:A. OTOH, one of the principal criticisms of the ME1 implementation was that many worlds were annoying to navigate. I don't know if they will want to repeat that.

[Kabraxal]

This made me realize that we don't really have a good sense of what the ME:A team thinks exploration is about yet. A lot of DAI was about mastering terrain that's difficult to navigate. You knew where you wanted to go but physically getting there was an issue.

This could be repeated in ME:A. OTOH, one of the principal criticisms of the ME1 implementation was that many worlds were annoying to navigate. I don't know if they will want to repeat that.

 

I'm hoping a mix of Inquisition and ME1 in terms of details and starscapes, then throw in various hubs to give a sense that some civilisations have laid claim to areas already.  Absolute ridiculous hope... one world that is basically Illium level of developed with a lot of hubs within it along with the less developed worlds that create a huge variety.  But given the cost and effort that might take, that is pushing it. 

[straykat]

Maybe to you, but I found the exploration in DA:I to be fantastic.  I would get lost just looking at the ruins or wondering around just to see what else is there.  There is more to a world than things to kill or pick up, and DA:I's design manages to create a realistic feeling world that exudes a deep sense of actual history.  Maybe that kind of exploration isn't for you, but it still is exploration. 

 

I hope Bioware isn't listening too closely to a lot of these complaints or a lot of the small details that you can find will suddenly not be there because they wouldn't think it worth it to bother with.  Much of my joy, especially on my later runs, has been discovering the small and often subtle details that I had missed previously.  So saying there is nothing is simply not true.

 

Of course, there's more to the world than shooting. He's just comparing developers who've been doing it for 20 years and who have an expertise at it. It isn't some trivial feature you just scratch off on a checklist.

[Kabraxal]

Of course, there's more to the world than shooting. He's just comparing developers who've been doing it for 20 years and who have an expertise at it. It isn't some trivial feature you just scratch off on a checklist.

 

Except the only one that comes close to it is Bethesda... there are no other devs that have created an open world with this level of exploration and depth of detail.  Thedas doesn't feel like a game world with a checklist of things to accomplish.  There are times I go to the Hissing Wastes or to the Storm Coast just to explore the ruins or to enjoy the coastline while marveling at the giant dwarven statues.  No intent to advance the story, no intent to do a quest, just an intent to see that world. 

 

That is much better world design than almost any other game out there. 

[Vilegrim]

Sure. I'm just asking for intellectual honesty. ME1 was nonsense, but it sounded plausible if you didn't think about it too much, and the later games really were worse. StarcloudSWG's argument works fine without pretending that ME1 was something it wasn't.

Edit: more importantly, it's a mistake to ask for real SF. I don't think we really need that, and a lot of us wouldn't even want it.

 

 

You can have a lot of fun with fairly hard Sci-Fi (eclipse phase and the commonwealth saga both spring to mind) 

[Killroy]

Maybe to you, but I found the exploration in DA:I to be fantastic.  I would get lost just looking at the ruins or wondering around just to see what else is there.  There is more to a world than things to kill or pick up, and DA:I's design manages to create a realistic feeling world that exudes a deep sense of actual history.  Maybe that kind of exploration isn't for you, but it still is exploration.

Wandering around, even if you pick up the occasional loot, is just wandering around if you don't actually find anything. Most of the maps had 1 or 2 points of interest and the rest was dead space, used to hide crafting materials. When I think of exploration I think of discovery. The problem with DAI is that there isn't anything else there if you're looking for more than looking. 
 

I hope Bioware isn't listening too closely to a lot of these complaints or a lot of the small details that you can find will suddenly not be there because they wouldn't think it worth it to bother with.  Much of my joy, especially on my later runs, has been discovering the small and often subtle details that I had missed previously.  So saying there is nothing is simply not true.

I hope they're listening very closely since the most common complaint about DAI is that the maps are largely dead and boring.
 

Perhaps. But is there any reason to assume that they'll do worse than the old team?

Why would "equally bad" be a good thing? 

[straykat]

Except the only one that comes close to it is Bethesda... there are no other devs that have created an open world with this level of exploration and depth of detail.  Thedas doesn't feel like a game world with a checklist of things to accomplish.  There are times I go to the Hissing Wastes or to the Storm Coast just to explore the ruins or to enjoy the coastline while marveling at the giant dwarven statues.  No intent to advance the story, no intent to do a quest, just an intent to see that world. 

 

That is much better world design than almost any other game out there. 

 

Close to it? There's little detail here. It's just pretty. For one, it's not a sandbox, nor does it even have dungeons. And the AI is stupid (and most NPCs are statically placed anyhow).

 

About the only thing that reminded me of Bethesda is one little area, on the Storm Coast, where that mage kept dead bodies in his cellar.

[Iakus]

but if they had found sabotage what were they going to do? It's not like Saren could have fixed it because he would have been shot the moment he showed up.

 

The whole thing has way too many holes for me to believe Sovereign wasn't a massive idiot regardless of which route one wants to argue.

Probably depends on what the nature of the sabotage was.  Won't know until they find out.

 

The lack of seeker swarms in Saren's assault on the Citadel shows just how stupid Sovereign was 

[straykat]

BTW, I'm not trying to knock Montreal. I liked Omega. I think they could have made another Mass Effect game like 2 and 3 very well. That and the fact that ME3 MP is nothing but stage-based gameplay. And it's done well too.

 

Too bad that's not happening.

[Iakus]

This could be repeated in ME:A. OTOH, one of the principal criticisms of the ME1 implementation was that many worlds were annoying to navigate. I don't know if they will want to repeat that.

Eh in ME1 if you looked closely at the terrain you could see faint paths that showed where you could safely go.

 

DAI had some places that were tough to navigate, but most of it was pretty straightforward

[Seboist]

Eh in ME1 if you looked closely at the terrain you could see faint paths that showed where you could safely go.

True, the bigger issue was the copy and pasted installations on those worlds.

[straykat]

I made copy and paste worlds like that in 3d progs in the 90s.

 

There isn't much there except the surface textures and shapes. It's very easy to generate. It's hard to be wowed by it. 

[Kabraxal]

Wandering around, even if you pick up the occasional loot, is just wandering around if you don't actually find anything. Most of the maps had 1 or 2 points of interest and the rest was dead space, used to hide crafting materials. When I think of exploration I think of discovery. The problem with DAI is that there isn't anything else there if you're looking for more than looking. 
 

I hope they're listening very closely since the most common complaint about DAI is that the maps are largely dead and boring.
 

Why would "equally bad" be a good thing? 

 

 

Except you will find burnt buildings that showcase the effects of a war.  You will find bodies that will tell you a story of how they died.  You will find ancient caves that show you a long history stretching past the time period of the game itself.   There is much to find within the world, but it seems what you want is huge neon signs in cutscenes and markers to scream "look look here I am and this is what I'm about!". 

 

Then there is the simple fact you can wonder the world just because it is so damn amazing to look at.  Did the same in Elder Scrolls quite often. 

 

Close to it? There's little detail here. It's just pretty. For one, it's not a sandbox, nor does it even have dungeons. And the AI is stupid.

 

About the only thing that reminded me of Bethesda is one little area, on the Storm Coast, where that mage kept dead bodies in his cellar.

 

No detail?  Huh, I guess the collapsed dwarven ruins on the Storm Coast with deliberate styling don't exist.  I guess the poisonous pits in the Exalted plains near the dragon don't exist.  Or the crumbling vestiges of the elves scattered throughout the world or how the scattered ruins in the plains brings you to a temple of the ancient elves that foreshadows that in the Arbhor Wilds, with a ton of detail etched into the design to give you a sense of style and history before it is covered by the murky grime of years of neglect. 

 

Inquisition is filled with details, from simple design all the way to little character actions that you can so easily miss if you don't pay attention.  This cry of little detail rings extremely hollow.

[straykat]

Except you will find burnt buildings that showcase the effects of a war.  You will find bodies that will tell you a story of how they died.  You will find ancient caves that show you a long history stretching past the time period of the game itself.   There is much to find within the world, but it seems what you want is huge neon signs in cutscenes and markers to scream "look look here I am and this is what I'm about!". 

 

Then there is the simple fact you can wonder the world just because it is so damn amazing to look at.  Did the same in Elder Scrolls quite often. 

 

 

No detail?  Huh, I guess the collapsed dwarven ruins on the Storm Coast with deliberate styling don't exist.  I guess the poisonous pits in the Exalted plains near the dragon don't exist.  Or the crumbling vestiges of the elves scattered throughout the world or how the scattered ruins in the plains brings you to a temple of the ancient elves that foreshadows that in the Arbhor Wilds, with a ton of detail etched into the design to give you a sense of style and history before it is covered by the murky grime of years of neglect. 

 

Inquisition is filled with details, from simple design all the way to little character actions that you can so easily miss if you don't pay attention.  This cry of little detail rings extremely hollow.

 

No more detail than an MMO. Designated theme park areas in a big empty space is not a detailed open world.

 

I don't knock the craftsmanship that goes into these areas, but none of it needs an open world to work. 

[straykat]

I'll just add... I liked the swamp area in DAI. Whatever's it called. It still feels like one of DAO's stages, just bigger. And there's a gamey element to how all of it designed. Avoiding the waters, taking out the demons at each of those waypoints, finally reaching the boss battle with the Avvar dude. There's a few hidden things off the beaten path, and most of the space is used.

[Kabraxal]

No more detail than an MMO. Designated theme park areas in a big empty space is not a detailed open world.

 

I don't knock the craftsmanship that goes into these areas, but none of it needs an open world to work. 

 

Then we have a wild disagreement here.  I don't view it as "theme park design", but design to create a world that feels real instead of a mere game world.  I don't need characters running up to me randomly to give me some contrived radiant quest.  I don't need the world filled with pockets of random activity that feel like an algorithm intended to badly simulate random occurrence. Give me a world that feels like I could actually step through the screen and feel like I am in a world with a distinct history and culture. 

 

There isn't an open world game out there that has better design than Inquisition to me.  Tamriel comes close, but elements of its world still feel like "this is a game world".  That seems mostly due to a lack of depth to the cultural and character design in comparison to Dragon Age. 

[straykat]

Then we have a wild disagreement here.  I don't view it as "theme park design", but design to create a world that feels real instead of a mere game world.  I don't need characters running up to me randomly to give me some contrived radiant quest.  I don't need the world filled with pockets of random activity that feel like an algorithm intended to badly simulate random occurrence. Give me a world that feels like I could actually step through the screen and feel like I am in a world with a distinct history and culture. 

 

There isn't an open world game out there that has better design than Inquisition to me.  Tamriel comes close, but elements of its world still feel like "this is a game world".  That seems mostly due to a lack of depth to the cultural and character design in comparison to Dragon Age. 

 

I don't like Radiant's timing either (but then, I use mods to correct it), but the Storm Coast is not better to me. Yes, we disagree wildly. There's next to little there that I care about. It's just pretty.

 

Also, those ruins suck. The pathing for AI is broken. I can't even get the team to follow me correctly.

[Kabraxal]

I don't like Radiant's timing either (but then, I use mods to correct it), but the Storm Coast is not better to me. Yes, we disagree wildly. There's next to little there that I care about. It's just pretty.

 

Also, those ruins suck. The pathing for AI is broken. I can't even get the team to follow me correctly.

 

See, when I got to the Storm Coast I had reactions similar to some of the companions.  I was blown away by the scope with the mountains to one side and the sea in front.  But that was nothing to when I came upon the massive dwarven statues that just made me stop in my tracks in awe.   The effects of that region reminded me of the first time seeing the white cliffs of Dover in England's typical rainy weather or the absolute crushing weight of history standing below the columns of the Coliseum in Rome.  That was the moment the game completely sucked me in because it felt real. 

 

Maybe it's that I lived in so many different regions myself that, when I feel this haunting sense of different yet familiar, Thedas just gets this rooted sense of reality that pulls me in and I can so easily lose myself in the world.  I just have to see what there is in the world.  I think I crawled over the crumbled statue in the Storm Coast for an hour.. then probably double that main set of ruins in the Hissing Waste.  Just recently, I realised the temple you reach after getting the 4 runes was actually one of the ancient Elven temples and I spent way more time than I should have trying to see what the half covered walls had on them and if there were any hidden little statues that were nods to the reveals.

[straykat]

See, when I got to the Storm Coast I had reactions similar to some of the companions.  I was blown away by the scope with the mountains to one side and the sea in front.  But that was nothing to when I came upon the massive dwarven statues that just made me stop in my tracks in awe.   The effects of that region reminded me of the first time seeing the white cliffs of Dover in England's typical rainy weather or the absolute crushing weight of history standing below the columns of the Coliseum in Rome.  That was the moment the game completely sucked me in because it felt real. 

 

Maybe it's that I lived in so many different regions myself that, when I feel this haunting sense of different yet familiar, Thedas just gets this rooted sense of reality that pulls me in and I can so easily lose myself in the world.  I just have to see what there is in the world.  I think I crawled over the crumbled statue in the Storm Coast for an hour.. then probably double that main set of ruins in the Hissing Waste.  Just recently, I realised the temple you reach after getting the 4 runes was actually one of the ancient Elven temples and I spent way more time than I should have trying to see what the half covered walls had on them and if there were any hidden little statues that were nods to the reveals.

 

It could be that I just don't care about dwarves. Or elven ruins. Or elven gods. Not right now. There's a time and place for everything. One of my main complaints of the game is it didn't focus on the mage/temp war or politics enough. Corypheus got rid of the things I cared to see play out. Now it's the big Epic story that requires everyone uniting... and me traipsing about empty areas I don't care about, reading codexes, acting like some heavily armored archaeologist.

 

If you want me to get immersed in the world, they could have just continued where I left off with DA2/Asunder. And offered a lot more intrigue and dialogue heavy sequences.. and had much of it done in cities rather than the wilderness. The webgame (Last Court) was more interesting than what I got out of DAI. Seriously. Fundamentally, it's a better story to me.

[Killroy]

Except you will find burnt buildings that showcase the effects of a war.  You will find bodies that will tell you a story of how they died.

How many burnt buildings and identical bodies can you see before you've picked up on the silent story? Me personally, it just takes one or two. After that it's irrelevant.
 

You will find ancient caves that show you a long history stretching past the time period of the game itself.

Been there, done that. We explored an even more ancient, even larger cave in DA2. Most of the caves in DAI are just tunnels through small mountains or short tubes with minor loot and spiders to easily dispatch. The only cave I recall that was more than that was the chasm in the Hinterlands, but you go back there and tread the same ground so many times it quickly loses its luster.
 

There is much to find within the world, but it seems what you want is huge neon signs in cutscenes and markers to scream "look look here I am and this is what I'm about!".

Wow you're mad. Why get so bootyblasted over criticism of something you didn't even make?
 

Then there is the simple fact you can wonder the world just because it is so damn amazing to look at.  Did the same in Elder Scrolls quite often.

I only found 3 or 4 of the maps to be particularly nice to look at.

[straykat]

What chasm is this? In the Hinterlands?

 

I was gonna say that dwarven smuggler area was an OK dungeon..definitely worth doing for the loot at least. I don't remember a chasm.