224 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Common sense views including her views on how elves act in the series.

 

I wouldn't equate her racism against elves with common sense. It's a fairly glaring character flaw.

[In Exile]

I wouldn't equate her racism against elves with common sense. It's a fairly glaring character flaw.

 

In what way is Sera racist? She is very clearly opposed to both City Elf and Dalish culture. But in what way are her views racist? She seem to think very much at all about elves as a group, and certainly doesn't desperate elves in virtue of being elven.

[In Exile]

Zevran and Fenris are pretty lukewarm on the subject. Zevran is more at home at the city, but has a certain respect for the Dalish. Fenris isn't keen on elven culture, but he doesn't actively despise them either. Contrast that with Merrill or Velanna or even Ariane.

 

We're at an interesting point now with elven characters, actually. Anyone who holds reverence for the Creators will now come off as delusional, given that the majority of myths about them are falsehoods and they were not gods or even benevolent rulers.

 

From everything I recall, it very much like - apart from generally being an ass to Merrill - Fenris did despise the Dalish.

 

That being said, I don't see why the Dalish need to believe anything differently about their gods. Sure, it's one thing for Solas to tell them it's all lies and somehow prove his identity - but from the sounds of his dialogue, he tried to tell at least a few clans about what the elvhen were like with no real success. 

 

In character, nothing's really changed for anyone. 

[LobselVith8]

In what way is Sera racist? She is very clearly opposed to both City Elf and Dalish culture. But in what way are her views racist? She seem to think very much at all about elves as a group, and certainly doesn't desperate elves in virtue of being elven.

 

Sera's persistent denigration of the elves as a people and generalizing them as though they were all the same would qualify. I understand that her background plays a role in this, but it's certainly a character flaw.

[In Exile]

Sera's persistent denigration of the elves as a people and generalizing them as though they were all the same would qualify. I understand that her background plays a role in this, but it's certainly a character flaw.

 

Where does she denigrate elves as a people? She talks about elven culture - whether City Elf or Dalish - and she dislikes it. I'm asking for actual examples of racism. If I say "the Dalish are arrogant" I'm not being racist towards the elves. If I say "the elves are all weak but I respect the Dalish for their adherence to fighting", then I'm being a racist while also lauding a culture. 

[vertigomez]

Solas wants to live in a world inhabited only by his own kind and repeatedly calls qunari (the race, not the religion) "savage creatures"...

But let's all talk about how Sera's racist.

[LobselVith8]

Solas wants to live in a world inhabited only by his own kind and repeatedly calls qunari (the race, not the religion) "savage creatures"...

But let's all talk about how Sera's racist.

 

I was simply saying that Sera's racism shouldn't be equated to common sense, not that she was the only one with character flaws.

[Steelcan]

I was simply saying that Sera's racism shouldn't be equated to common sense, not that she was the only one with character flaws.

she's not racist though, she doesn't say that the elves are inherently inferior or weaker or any such nonsense, she however does despise the focus on being too "elfy" that the Dalish and some city elves presumably subscribe to.

[Xilizhra]

Zevran and Fenris are pretty lukewarm on the subject. Zevran is more at home at the city, but has a certain respect for the Dalish. Fenris isn't keen on elven culture, but he doesn't actively despise them either. Contrast that with Merrill or Velanna or even Ariane.

 

We're at an interesting point now with elven characters, actually. Anyone who holds reverence for the Creators will now come off as delusional, given that the majority of myths about them are falsehoods and they were not gods or even benevolent rulers.

And again, no city elves with any enthusiasm for elven culture, period.

 

she's not racist though, she doesn't say that the elves are inherently inferior or weaker or any such nonsense, she however does despise the focus on being too "elfy" that the Dalish and some city elves presumably subscribe to.

She's a cultural/religious bigot, not a racist per se.

[VivainaDX]

I wouldn't equate her racism against elves with common sense. It's a fairly glaring character flaw.

I wouldn't consider her opinions racist, as much as she was frustrated and impatient with her race. Sera dealt with the here and now and saw city elves as those who just rolled over and accepted being treated horridly and she saw the Dalish as those who were tangled up in myth and legends from the past that they weren't taking action to deal with present issues. She saw so much injustice going on and her people were so buried in their own problems that they weren't doing anything to make things better.

[Steelcan]

 

She's a cultural/religious bigot, not a racist per se.

I thought you were all about technical definitions

[LobselVith8]

I wouldn't consider her opinions racist, as much as she was frustrated and impatient with her race. Sera dealt with the here and now and saw city elves as those who just rolled over and accepted being treated horridly and she saw the Dalish as those who were tangled up in myth and legends from the past that they weren't taking action to deal with present issues.

 

I don't see how that even makes sense. Sera gives no indication that she's even met the Dalish before Lavellan, and the city elves are in no position to do anything about their situation without risking being purged. Sera doesn't even support Briala fighting for her people to empower them. Sera dislikes when the elven Inquisitor says that he stands for all elves, but doesn't have any issue with the dwarven or qunari Inquisitor doing the same. Her 'elfy' comments come across as if a Latina was telling me that she disliked me being 'Latino-y'. She's incredibly close-minded, and let's not even get started on her ultimatum to Lavellan to give up their religion.

 

She saw so much injustice going on and her people were so buried in their own problems that they weren't doing anything to make things better.

 

I don't think arguing that Sera is blaming the elves for the persecution they face makes things any better.

[TheRatPack55]

she's not racist though, she doesn't say that the elves are inherently inferior or weaker or any such nonsense, she however does despise the focus on being too "elfy" that the Dalish and some city elves presumably subscribe to.

 

Tbh, if anyone in the rw said a given race was too focused on their own culture and should be more like some implied 'others' to be acceptable that would probably be considered pretty racist.

 

However I don't spend enough time with Sera to know if she does in fact say anything in that vein, or if she just expresses a personal dislike for either that focus or the aspects of elven culture in particular, which I think is a different issue, especially considering Sera herself is an elf, which affords her some leeway that, say, a human expressing such views wouldn't have.

[Steelcan]

please tell me where Sera blames the elves for their persecution

[Steelcan]

Anyone want to make the argument that Sera as a member of the oppressed groups cannot by definition be racist?

[TheRatPack55]

Anyone want to make the argument that Sera as a member of the oppressed groups cannot by definition be racist?

 

Was that @me? I did not imply anything of the sort, just said that her personally disliking the culture of (the majority) of her race does not make her racist.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I don't think marriage has been mentioned once this page. 

[nightscrawl]

We're at an interesting point now with elven characters, actually. Anyone who holds reverence for the Creators will now come off as delusional, given that the majority of myths about them are falsehoods and they were not gods or even benevolent rulers.

 
Is this widespread knowledge in Thedas yet? Just because we the player, or even the Inquisitor and friends, knows about it doesn't mean that all elves across Thedas do.

 

Depending on how that lore is presented in the world, I think it is entirely reasonable to still roleplay a Dalsih elf who believes in the Creators. And let's say that Solas sends people out to find the various clans to tell them about all this. What proof does that messenger have? The word of some other random elf? WE know it because of the things we saw in the game, that is our "proof." Other elves won't have access to such knowledge or experiences.

[VivainaDX]

 Sera doesn't even support Briala fighting for her people to empower them. Sera dislikes when the elven Inquisitor says that he stands for all elves, but doesn't have any issue with the dwarven or qunari Inquisitor doing the same. Her 'elfy' comments come across as if a Latina was telling me that she hoped I wasn't being 'Latino-y'. She's incredibly close-minded, and let's not even get started on her ultimatum to Lavellan to give up their religion.

 

 

 

OK, I don't think I've ever played a Lavellan. If I did, I don't remember. I think she disliked Briala more for her position than for her being an elf.  Sera has more of a problem with station, than she does race. When she complains about the elves, it's about how they always talk about how things were and what they lost, when as far as Sera is concerned, they have no idea what they're talking about, because it all happened so long ago it's hard to say what was lost and even if something was lost, deal with it, get over it and get on with your life. There are more important things to worry about. That isn't racism, that's refusing to live in the past and wrapping your life around living by tradition and since most elves she's come across live that way, she rebels against it. Had she of been a dwarf she would've been mocking the tradition of paragons, or the caste system or any other way of life that follows a tradition of separating classes. As she says, "people are people".

 

And if I haven't explained myself well enough, I apologize, I sometimes have difficulty putting thought to words.

[LobselVith8]

 

OK, I don't think I've ever played a Lavellan. If I did, I don't remember. I think she disliked Briala more for her position than for her being an elf.  Sera has more of a problem with station, than she does race.

 

Yet Sera approves rewarding Gaspard with the throne, a man who denigrates Briala with racist remarks (because she’s an elf), and who started the civil war in the first place. That’s part of the issue with her opposition to Briala, who is the only one fighting to give the Orlesian elves a better future out of all the candidates. Briala is fighting for the downtrodden so I don't see how Sera could dislike her position when Briala is fighting for those who no one else is fighting for.

 

Sera has more of a problem with station, than she does race. When she complains about the elves, it's about how they always talk about how things were and what they lost, when as far as Sera is concerned, they have no idea what they're talking about, because it all happened so long ago it's hard to say what was lost and even if something was lost, deal with it, get over it and get on with your life. There are more important things to worry about. That isn't racism, that's refusing to live in the past and wrapping your life around living by tradition and since most elves she's come across live that way, she rebels against it.

 

Sera shows disdain upon meeting Lavellan and seeing that the person is an elf; she constantly denigrates the elves even when the dialogue is fairly neutral. She disapproves when the elven protagonist proclaims an elf “stand for us all”, even while having no opposition to dwarves or qunari saying the same thing for theirs (she actually approves when a dwarf says it); this is just one example of dialogue that has nothing to do with elven culture but where she hates it in a hypocritical manner while having no issue with the dwarven or qunari equivalent.

 

Her racism is a character flaw, and admittedly it does seen like she goes through character growth in Trespasser, but it is a character flaw in the main game. Anyone who asks the person they are supposed to love to give up their religious beliefs (while entering the relationship knowing the person doesn’t share their religious views) is deeply, deeply flawed.​

 

​

Had she of been a dwarf she would've been mocking the tradition of paragons, or the caste system or any other way of life that follows a tradition of separating classes. As she says, "people are people".

 

And if I haven't explained myself well enough, I apologize, I sometimes have difficulty putting thought to words.

 

That's fine, no need to apologize.​

[VivainaDX]

Yet Sera approves rewarding Gaspard with the throne, a man who denigrates Briala with racist remarks (because she’s an elf), and who started the civil war in the first place. That’s part of the issue with her opposition to Briala, who is the only one fighting to give the Orlesian elves a better future out of all the candidates. Briala is fighting for the downtrodden so I don't see how Sera could dislike her position when Briala is fighting for those who no one else is fighting for.

 

Ok, did she approve of Gaspard because he was Gaspard, or is it possible that she did so because he wasn't Briala or Celene? I got the impression she was more upset over the relationship between the two women and her hard feelings stemmed from...kinda like.."Oh great! Of course it would be an elf that would have a fling with an empress, involve herself in a war and get innocent people killed."...she isn't upset at the elf thing as much as she's upset at what she perceives to be a betrayal of the downtrodden and an act of ladder climbing.

 

Sera shows disdain upon meeting Lavellan and seeing that the person is an elf; she constantly denigrates the elves even when the dialogue is fairly neutral. She disapproves when the elven protagonist proclaims an elf “stand for us all”, even while having no opposition to dwarves or qunari saying the same thing for theirs (she actually approves when a dwarf says it); this is just one example of dialogue that has nothing to do with elven culture but where she hates it in a hypocritical manner while having no issue with the dwarven or qunari equivalent.

 

Yeah, but she's just getting to know the Inquisitor and is testing boundaries, maybe? And hearing the Inquisitor claim to "stand for us all" may come across to her as sanctimonious, at the time, she may feel it's more posture than anything. Did you bring her along on any party missions? I kept her, Dorian and Bull as constant companions and grew to love the group dynamic.

 

Her racism is a character flaw, and admittedly it does seen like she goes through character growth in Trespasser, but it is a character flaw in the main game. Anyone who asks the person they are supposed to love to give up their religious beliefs (while entering the relationship knowing the person doesn’t share their religious views) is deeply, deeply flawed.​

 

Asking someone to give up their beliefs like that wouldn't be good, but then perusing her while she had her own views and putting her in the position of having to ask you to do so isn't fair either. You were the one in control of the relationship, right?

 

That's fine, no need to apologize.​

[LobselVith8]

Ok, did she approve of Gaspard because he was Gaspard, or is it possible that she did so because he wasn't Briala or Celene? I got the impression she was more upset over the relationship between the two women and her hard feelings stemmed from...kinda like.."Oh great! Of course it would be an elf that would have a fling with an empress, involve herself in a war and get innocent people killed."...she isn't upset at the elf thing as much as she's upset at what she perceives to be a betrayal of the downtrodden and an act of ladder climbing.

 

Sera gives approval to Gaspard, who started the civil war in the first place and got plenty of people killed, and gives disapproval for Briala, who is fighting to gives the elves rights and freedoms. I don't see how she can approval of Gaspard (who makes racist remarks to Briala and is engaged in racist antics - like funding scholars at the university of Val Royeaux to write scientific papers declaring that elves are animals) while disapproval of Briala with race not being a factor, particularly when it's a factor in other circumstances (like with the main character saying an 'elf will stand for us all').

 

Honestly, there are a lot of places that discuss Sera's internalized racism and how her upbringing likely warped her views on elves and her own self-esteem issues. It's much more pronounced when you play as Dalish than if you play as another race.

 

Yeah, but she's just getting to know the Inquisitor and is testing boundaries, maybe? And hearing the Inquisitor claim to "stand for us all" may come across to her as sanctimonious, at the time, she may feel it's more posture than anything. Did you bring her along on any party missions? I kept her, Dorian and Bull as constant companions and grew to love the group dynamic.

 

Except she has no problem with the qunari or dwarven Inquisitor saying the same thing for their respective race, and even gives approval in the case of the dwarven Inquisitor. It's the same dialogue, except replaced with the Inquisitor's respective race; the reason she gives disapproval to Lavellan is because the character says that an 'elf' will stand for them.

 

 Asking someone to give up their beliefs like that wouldn't be good, but then perusing her while she had her own views and putting her in the position of having to ask you to do so isn't fair either. You were the one in control of the relationship, right?

 

Mahariel can enter into a relationship with Leliana without asking her to change her religious views, and Hawke can enter into a relationship with Merrill without asking her to change her religious views. Sera is the one who decided, all of a sudden, to make an ultimatum to Lavellan; Lavellan never asks her to change her religious views or anything of the sort.

[phoray]

Sera gives approval to Gaspard, who started the civil war in the first place and got plenty of people killed, and gives disapproval for Briala, who is fighting to gives the elves rights and freedoms. I don't see how she can approval of Gaspard (who makes racist remarks to Briala and is engaged in racist antics - like funding scholars at the university of Val Royeaux to write scientific papers declaring that elves are animals) while disapproval of Briala with race not being a factor, particularly when it's a factor in other circumstances (like with the main character saying an 'elf will stand for us all').

Honestly, there are a lot of places that discuss Sera's internalized racism and how her upbringing likely warped her views on elves and her own self-esteem issues. It's much more pronounced when you play as Dalish than if you play as another race.



Except she has no problem with the qunari or dwarven Inquisitor saying the same thing for their respective race, and even gives approval in the case of the dwarven Inquisitor. It's the same dialogue, except replaced with the Inquisitor's respective race; the reason she gives disapproval to Lavellan is because the character says that an 'elf' will stand for them.



Mahariel can enter into a relationship with Leliana without asking her to change her religious views, and Hawke can enter into a relationship with Merrill without asking her to change her religious views. Sera is the one who decided, all of a sudden, to make an ultimatum to Lavellan; Lavellan never asks her to change her religious views or anything of the sort.

This almost makes me want to play an Elf just to romance Sera and see how bad it is. But the Qunari I have in mind is already going to have problems being a mage.

When I played a human mage and thought the Temple of Mythal was pretty cool, the amount of hate I got was so reminiscent of when Anders emotionally blackmailed me into helping him blow up the Chantry it was crazy. It is crazy how these video game characters brow beat me into agreeing with them. My human asked, "You'd really end our friendship over this?!" And Sera was like. "Ha, yup.!"

I was a sad panda, so I agreed with her at that point because it seemed like that's all she really wanted at that moment. Ya know, like how people get all heated and can't see reason, but later you can approach them and seek a middle ground. But in this video game, I realized I couldn't reapproach; so now I just take the disapproval hit if my character doesn't agree.

My most recent play through, my character was an atheist. So, "all of it is lies" applied to every religion, not just the elves. But Sera can just ignore my atheism towards her maker, so in that case, hindsight, I guess I still didn't stand up to her.


But the reason this whole discussion turned into a Sera thing is that she is one of two characters that can be married and she is a very polarizing character.

I wonder if Cullen comments on my atheism. I can't remember. I romanced him as a confused agnostic so maybe it didn't come up.

[VivainaDX]

I wonder if Cullen comments on my atheism. I can't remember. I romanced him as a confused agnostic so maybe it didn't come up.

I think Cullen was having his own issues with religion, I don't think the Inquisitor's was a big deal to him at the time. Mind you I never checked out all his replies when he was praying in the Skyhold chapel.

[In Exile]

Solas wants to live in a world inhabited only by his own kind and repeatedly calls qunari (the race, not the religion) "savage creatures"...

But let's all talk about how Sera's racist.

 

I'm actually shocked, honestly, that people don't common view Solas as a racist. Because he is just a racist either. He's literally working towards his racial utopia, to return his people to the status of (perceived) ubermensch. It goes to show you how much people are influenced by the vilifying image in culture of racism. 

 

I mean, this is a guy who straight up gives you a speech about how massive death (and, effectively, genocide!) is totally OK because it benefit his people, and return them to their natural status of being objectively superior to everyone else. 

 

And again, no city elves with any enthusiasm for elven culture, period.

 

She's a cultural/religious bigot, not a racist per se.

 

What would a City Elf who is enthusiastic for elven culture look like? The CEs don't really seem to know much about their own culture - it was not an insignificant part of the CE origin in DA:O to learn there was a great elven Warden hero. 

 

Sera's definitely prejudiced. It's really sad, particularly because of how she was raised. But a lot of it seems to be her self-loathing projection, tied-up with how she was raised. Not that this excuses her - just shows that she's a pretty good example of how the bigotry in Thedas against elves generally can twist someone up.