224 réponses à ce sujet

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I watched a YouTube of Sera's romance with an elf. She starts out early on saying she doesn't usually hook up with elves because they're "like a bag of chicken necks". I can't imagine having low enough self worth to go ahead with the relationship after that, honestly. Imagine if it was, "I usually don't date Asian girls, they're like a bag of chicken necks." Does that seem alright? Nobody would have a problem with that? 

 

I really couldn't understand her deal with breaking it off with an elven Inquisitor that even questions whether anything is real in their own religion, though. Almost every other option is Andrastrian and nobody else has a problem with this. Cassandra and Vivienne take less issue with your elven belief system and they can actually become the Divine. Sera doesn't have any dealbreaker moments at all for an Inquisitor that claims atheistic views the entire game. She doesn't break up with a dwarf that believes in the Stone and honors the Paragons. She only has a problem with you if you specifically have elven beliefs. The problem is clearly not that she needs someone that shares or even respects her beliefs, since you can actively trash Andrastrianism at every chance and be fine. She has a problem with specifically the beliefs of the Dalish.

 

I really don't see how people can come to the conclusion that Sera's thing with elves is anything other than internalized racism. Her caretaker as a child would apparently use assumed racism as a tool to manipulate her when she was little, and I think that may have been a big part of what messed her up about elves. I'm genuinely sorry that this couldn't be something you could help her work through, honestly. As much as I otherwise didn't like her much, she seemed like a childish, immature person that couldn't work through her pain in a healthy way and it's sad to see that left untouched. 

[In Exile]

I watched a YouTube of Sera's romance with an elf. She starts out early on saying she doesn't usually hook up with elves because they're "like a bag of chicken necks". I can't imagine having low enough self worth to go ahead with the relationship after that, honestly. Imagine if it was, "I usually don't date Asian girls, they're like a bag of chicken necks." Does that seem alright? Nobody would have a problem with that? 

 

I really couldn't understand her deal with breaking it off with an elven Inquisitor that even questions whether anything is real in their own religion, though. Almost every other option is Andrastrian and nobody else has a problem with this. Cassandra and Vivienne take less issue with your elven belief system and they can actually become the Divine. Sera doesn't have any dealbreaker moments at all for an Inquisitor that claims atheistic views the entire game. She doesn't break up with a dwarf that believes in the Stone and honors the Paragons. She only has a problem with you if you specifically have elven beliefs. The problem is clearly not that she needs someone that shares or even respects her beliefs, since you can actively trash Andrastrianism at every chance and be fine. She has a problem with specifically the beliefs of the Dalish.

 

I really don't see how people can come to the conclusion that Sera's thing with elves is anything other than internalized racism. Her caretaker as a child would apparently use assumed racism as a tool to manipulate her when she was little, and I think that may have been a big part of what messed her up about elves. I'm genuinely sorry that this couldn't be something you could help her work through, honestly. As much as I otherwise didn't like her much, she seemed like a childish, immature person that couldn't work through her pain in a healthy way and it's sad to see that left untouched. 

 

I can't comment on the romance like - that sounds like racist. That said, I don't see how the issue with religion can be seen as racist. Despite the Dalish's desperate need to say that their cultural beliefs are the sine qua non of being elven and that one cannot be elven without adopting their culture, that's not really how it works. Apart from Sera's views at the temple of Mythal being confusing and kind of stupid (we basically don't even see anything that supports the idea that elven "gods" were anything more than powerful mages ala the Magisters), there's not much to take away from that particular scene. 

 

That said, I object to people characterizing Sera as childish and immature, in the sense that she just needs the right person to have her "grow" out of her views. As weird as they are - and as quirky as she is - those views are more thought out than people give her credit for on this forum. It's sad she views elves as she does, and it's really depressing she actually loathes so much of what she is, but it's just not clear to me - apart from that romance line - that her views are actually racist. 

 

Edit:

Also, you miss her point about the Creators. It's not about believing in those gods so much as it is asserting they could be real. She reacts the same way to magic and to the suggestion the Maker is "really real." She absolutely can't handle the supernatural, and finds it terrifying and overwhelming. She tries to rationalize everything in a way that makes sense to her self conception - "it's demons" - and she reacts badly to the suggestion to the contrary. She flips out the same way to an atheist Qunari or Andrastian human in that conversation after the temple of Mythal.

 

She doesn't like the Dalish at all, but that post-Mythal conversation is about a totally different hang-up.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I can't comment on the romance like - that sounds like racist. That said, I don't see how the issue with religion can be seen as racist. Despite the Dalish's desperate need to say that their cultural beliefs are the sine qua non of being elven and that one cannot be elven without adopting their culture, that's not really how it works. Apart from Sera's views at the temple of Mythal being confusing and kind of stupid (we basically don't even see anything that supports the idea that elven "gods" were anything more than powerful mages ala the Magisters), there's not much to take away from that particular scene. 

 

That said, I object to people characterizing Sera as childish and immature, in the sense that she just needs the right person to have her "grow" out of her views. As weird as they are - and as quirky as she is - those views are more thought out than people give her credit for on this forum. It's sad she views elves as she does, and it's really depressing she actually loathes so much of what she is, but it's just not clear to me - apart from that romance line - that her views are actually racist. 

The reason why I think it's racist is because I don't believe she actually hates it because of anything related to the actual religion. If she argued that she had specific moral qualms with this religion, in particular, then it would be different. To hate the mind control aspects and loss of freedom in the Qun isn't to be racist against the Qunari. The problem is that the only thing she ever mentions disliking about the religion is that it is "elfy". It's not that she has a problem with what you actually believe, she has a problem with you being elfy. The problem with the religion is ultimately that she associates it with elves, and she has a problem with elves. The reason that I see it as racism is because the crux of the problem she has isn't the religion or any components of the religion, it's the association it has with "elfiness" that makes it a problem.  

[In Exile]

The reason why I think it's racist is because I don't believe she actually hates it because of anything related to the actual religion. If she argued that she had specific moral qualms with this religion, in particular, then it would be different. To hate the mind control aspects and loss of freedom in the Qun isn't to be racist against the Qunari. The problem is that the only thing she ever mentions disliking about the religion is that it is "elfy". It's not that she has a problem with what you actually believe, she has a problem with you being elfy. The problem with the religion is ultimately that she associates it with elves, and she has a problem with elves. The reason that I see it as racism is because the crux of the problem she has isn't the religion or any components of the religion, it's the association it has with "elfiness" that makes it a problem.  

 

But "elfy" is just her weird idea of elven culture. She doesn't think these are traits associated with elves qua elves, but with parts of elven culture. To me, that's just cultural bigotry, not racism. Apart from that line in the romance you quoted - which I why I caveat the whole conversation - it doesn't sound like she has a problem with elves so much as with her mental idea of what it means to adhere to elven culture. Though in a really important way, trying to pick out the correct definition for her sad and (ultimately) awful form of prejudice is splitting hairs in a point that we don't need. 

 

And I think a lot of what she hates about being "elfy" isn't tied to elves at all, but to her own views (about looking forward, not having ties to anything, and so on). I'm not sure if you posted this after my edit, but I think her issue with e.g., belief in the Creators isn't really tied to just being "elfy". 

 

edit:

And to all of this I would say that I would have a somewhat different view if DA wasn't a racially essentialist setting. 

[nightscrawl]

That said, I object to people characterizing Sera as childish and immature, in the sense that she just needs the right person to have her "grow" out of her views. As weird as they are - and as quirky as she is - those views are more thought out than people give her credit for on this forum.

I'd like to see her in about 10 years or so. When I first met her in the game, she was about 10 years younger than both myself and my Inquisitor. Her behavior seems childish to me because I view her as being much closer to childhood than myself or my Inquisitor. It's one reason I can never romance Alistair again; I think of him as a boy, and he sometimes acts like one, even David Gaider once referred to him as a man-child and he's fond of the character.
 
However, a great part of that is just her general personality which just isn't my cup of tea. For example, I did appreciate her reasoning when she asks the Inquisitor to play pranks with her as a distraction for the members of the Inquisition. The spoken line mirrors my thoughts exactly: "I appreciate what you're doing, but it's not for me. You go ahead." (My remembrance isn't exactly correct, but it's close enough.)


[edit]
Fixed typos...

Modifié par nightscrawl, 09 juillet 2016 - 02:36 .

[In Exile]

I'd like to see her in about 10 years or so. When I first met her in the game, she was about 10 years younger than both myself and my Inquisitor. Her behavior seems childish to me because I view her as being much closer to childhood than myself or my Inquisitor. It's one reason I can never romance Alistair again; I think of him like a boy, and he sometimes acts like one, even David Gaider once referred to him as a man-child and he's fond of the character.

 

However, a great part of that is just her general personality which just isn't my cup of tea. For example, I did appreciate her reasoning when she asks the Inquisitor to play pranks with her as a distraction for the members of the Inquisition. The spoken like mirrors my thought's exactly: "I appreciate what you're doing, but it's not for me. You go ahead." (My remembrance isn't exactly correct, but it's close enough.)

 

That's fair. 

 

As for the pranks, it wasn't just as a distraction - it was to show that the Inquisitor wasn't so above the Inquisition. We see this with Varric and the IB, too. The pranks were just weird, though. The IB does it to teach you something, but boh Varric and Sera (who actually struggle with viewing the Inquisitor as a divine figure, ultime the more fanatical Leliana and Cassandra) need to see the Inquisitor as "human" (in the way we colloquially use that phrase IRL) to cope with the whole thing. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But "elfy" is just her weird idea of elven culture. She doesn't think these are traits associated with elves qua elves, but with parts of elven culture. To me, that's just cultural bigotry, not racism. Apart from that line in the romance you quoted - which I why I caveat the whole conversation - it doesn't sound like she has a problem with elves so much as with her mental idea of what it means to adhere to elven culture. Though in a really important way, trying to pick out the correct definition for her sad and (ultimately) awful form of prejudice is splitting hairs in a point that we don't need. 

 

And I think a lot of what she hates about being "elfy" isn't tied to elves at all, but to her own views (about looking forward, not having ties to anything, and so on). I'm not sure if you posted this after my edit, but I think her issue with e.g., belief in the Creators isn't really tied to just being "elfy". 

 

edit:

And to all of this I would say that I would have a somewhat different view if DA wasn't a racially essentialist setting. 

 

Sera doesn't like magic, but she won't break up with you over it, regardless how pro-mage and unashamed of it you are. I'm just not at all convinced this isn't about elves, because she reacts so much more strongly to it than to any similar issue. She will get over you being a mage, even though she's afraid of mages, and you're not forced to pander to her beliefs to make that happen. She'll barely care if you trash her religion constantly. She seems to have no problem with characters supporting other beliefs and religions outside of that. You're saying it's not specifically about being an elf, but that's the only common factor. It makes the most sense, to me, to assume it is about being an elf. With everything else, ultimately she might not like it, but she'll let it go. The only thing she can't let go of is if you're "too elfy".

 

But I do agree this is a pretty semantic argument about the specific type of prejudice she has.

[In Exile]

Sera doesn't like magic, but she won't break up with you over it, regardless how pro-mage and unashamed of it you are. I'm just not at all convinced this isn't about elves, because she reacts so much more strongly to it than to any similar issue. She will get over you being a mage, even though she's afraid of mages, and you're not forced to pander to her beliefs to make that happen. She'll barely care if you trash her religion constantly. She seems to have no problem with characters supporting other beliefs and religions outside of that. You're saying it's not specifically about being an elf, but that's the only common factor. It makes the most sense, to me, to assume it is about being an elf. With everything else, ultimately she might not like it, but she'll let it go. The only thing she can't let go of is if you're "too elfy".

 

But I do agree this is a pretty semantic argument about the specific type of prejudice she has.

 

I'm going to have to watch the scene with her breaking up with the Inquisitor, then. It sounds like this is tied to that specific interaction, and it's unfair for me to debate further without that information. This post is just to clarify I'm not dropping the conversation per se, just that I need more information before coming back to it. 

[nightscrawl]

That's fair. 
 
As for the pranks, it wasn't just as a distraction - it was to show that the Inquisitor wasn't so above the Inquisition. We see this with Varric and the IB, too. The pranks were just weird, though. The IB does it to teach you something, but boh Varric and Sera (who actually struggle with viewing the Inquisitor as a divine figure, ultime the more fanatical Leliana and Cassandra) need to see the Inquisitor as "human" (in the way we colloquially use that phrase IRL) to cope with the whole thing.

Ah, I hadn't thought of it that way, probably because she doesn't explain it in those terms, that I can recall. But I take your point about Iron Bull and Varric, particularly since that goes along well with my Inquisitor's roleplay for dealing with the role of Inquisitor (or not dealing with it, as the case may be). Missing that dialogue is the only thing I find unfortunate in my plays where I don't recruit Iron Bull.

[LobselVith8]

I can't comment on the romance like - that sounds like racist. That said, I don't see how the issue with religion can be seen as racist. Despite the Dalish's desperate need to say that their cultural beliefs are the sine qua non of being elven and that one cannot be elven without adopting their culture, that's not really how it works. Apart from Sera's views at the temple of Mythal being confusing and kind of stupid (we basically don't even see anything that supports the idea that elven "gods" were anything more than powerful mages ala the Magisters), there's not much to take away from that particular scene. 

 

Sera is from Denerim, and there's no indication she's even met a Dalish elf before Lavellan; she certainly never says as much. She also makes her disgust for elves clear in the very first scene an elven Inquisitor has with her. Her 'elfy' comments would be akin to a Latina telling me that she didn't like that I was 'Latino-y'.

 

Her denigration of the elves is peppered throughout the narrative, including her initial dialogues, and she includes Solas in the derogatory comments she makes.

 

As for your remark, considering how we've met Dalish who view Andrastian elves as elves and regard them as such (Merrill being a notable example), we've met Dalish who think the Dalish and City elves could learn from one another (in a hypothetical homeland), and when Clan Lavellan protects the Wycome elves (even though they could easily abandon them to die) and the Keeper's correspondence to Lavellan indicates they are viewed as elves, it comes across like you're trying to mitigate Sera's racism by denigrating the Dalish as though they were one-dimensional caricatures.

 

Also, you miss her point about the Creators. It's not about believing in those gods so much as it is asserting they could be real. She reacts the same way to magic and to the suggestion the Maker is "really real." She absolutely can't handle the supernatural, and finds it terrifying and overwhelming. She tries to rationalize everything in a way that makes sense to her self conception - "it's demons" - and she reacts badly to the suggestion to the contrary. She flips out the same way to an atheist Qunari or Andrastian human in that conversation after the temple of Mythal.

 

She doesn't like the Dalish at all, but that post-Mythal conversation is about a totally different hang-up.

 

Sera's intolerance towards Lavellan following her own religion isn't applicable for the other Inquisitors, however.

[jlb524]

I can't comment on the romance like - that sounds like racist. That said, I don't see how the issue with religion can be seen as racist. Despite the Dalish's desperate need to say that their cultural beliefs are the sine qua non of being elven and that one cannot be elven without adopting their culture, that's not really how it works. Apart from Sera's views at the temple of Mythal being confusing and kind of stupid (we basically don't even see anything that supports the idea that elven "gods" were anything more than powerful mages ala the Magisters), there's not much to take away from that particular scene.

That said, I object to people characterizing Sera as childish and immature, in the sense that she just needs the right person to have her "grow" out of her views. As weird as they are - and as quirky as she is - those views are more thought out than people give her credit for on this forum. It's sad she views elves as she does, and it's really depressing she actually loathes so much of what she is, but it's just not clear to me - apart from that romance line - that her views are actually racist.

Edit:
Also, you miss her point about the Creators. It's not about believing in those gods so much as it is asserting they could be real. She reacts the same way to magic and to the suggestion the Maker is "really real." She absolutely can't handle the supernatural, and finds it terrifying and overwhelming. She tries to rationalize everything in a way that makes sense to her self conception - "it's demons" - and she reacts badly to the suggestion to the contrary. She flips out the same way to an atheist Qunari or Andrastian human in that conversation after the temple of Mythal.

She doesn't like the Dalish at all, but that post-Mythal conversation is about a totally different hang-up.

Her romanced dialog post-Mythal is different for elves vs. the other races, though. I think it's all the same for every race if you don't romance her. Sera will break up with a Dalish Inquisitor if the Inquisitor doesn't agree that the Temple was all demon nonsense. With the other races, she doesn't offer the ultimatum and is okay to keep dating even if they refuse to agree.

Sera's biggest issue post-Mythal is a romanced Dalish. With a non-romanced Dalish, she's still fine with continuing the friendship even if you disagree. So I would say race does seem to be a factor here if in a romance. I'm not sure why but I imagine it's because she fears rejection by an elven girlfriend for not being"the right kind of elf" so dumps her first to prevent that from happening.

[vertigomez]

Ah, I hadn't thought of it that way, probably because she doesn't explain it in those terms, that I can recall.

Just want to interject- she does lay it out like that, that the pranks are partly to show that the Inquisitor is just a person, but you only hear that dialogue if you go along with the pranks. She's pleasantly surprised when you're up for it. "I knew you were different!"

"I tell one of the soldiers and boom! The General seems like people. And since he works for you, you seem like people."

"An Inquisitor of the people, still remembering you're one of them. If all they got was the Herald stuff, the serious bit, you'd start to sound pretty scary."

[nightscrawl]

Just want to interject- she does lay it out like that, that the pranks are partly to show that the Inquisitor is just a person, but you only hear that dialogue if you go along with the pranks. She's pleasantly surprised when you're up for it. "I knew you were different!"

"I tell one of the soldiers and boom! The General seems like people. And since he works for you, you seem like people."

"An Inquisitor of the people, still remembering you're one of them. If all they got was the Herald stuff, the serious bit, you'd start to sound pretty scary."

 

Thanks. Yeah, I've never done it. It just really isn't my thing...

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I was thinking about the "Solas racism" thing people brought up before and I think the difference there is that it remains garbled what exactly Solas believes, or who he's really fighting for. Solas isn't particularly pro-elf throughout the game. He says he doesn't see himself as having much in common with other elves. He doesn't like the Dalish and is pretty clear about that. He only admits he might have been wrong about them if you become his friend as a Dalish, which is an admission that he at least started out with issues towards them. I feel like it's implied in a lot of cases that he blames the elves for not holding things together and he's disgusted by how wrong they got many things, by his views. His problems with elves are definitely cultural, but I'm not sure that's untrue about everyone else. He hates the Qun, that's clear. I didn't hear the dialog someone said he had about the Qunari as a race, so I can't comment on that. He hates Tevinter for stealing things from his culture and presenting them as theirs. We know he hated slavery in his own culture, so it follows he hates it in theirs. The only "people" that Solas consistently likes are Spirits, I assume because Spirits are the only thing that's remained roughly the same since his time and he can still relate to them. 

 

When you talk to Solas at the end of Trespasser as an elf, he still says what he's going to do is going to kill you and your people. He says he'll save the elven people even if he has to destroy "this world" to do it, but then he makes it clear he doesn't expect an elven Inquisitor to survive. I was a Dalish Inquisitor with exemplar approval with him and he certainly didn't imply what he was doing was going to benefit me in any way. He talks about basically not being to relate to anyone in the modern age, saying it was like how I would feel if the whole world had been made Tranquil. 

 

The thing about Solas is this.. I really don't understand him or who his people are. I almost lean towards thinking he isn't sure, either. He wants to help people, generally. He cares about suffering he sees around him. His approval always leans towards being merciful and kind in general quests. He says he's "not a monster" and doesn't want to see people suffer before.. well, he kills them all. At the same time, he thinks everyone is below him. That's something he literally comes out and says at the end of Trespasser, and that's pretty clear to read in a lot of his dialog before that point. He talks about his regret that what he did took everything away from the elves, and then he tells an elven Inquisitor that what he's going to do to correct it will kill them and their people. 

 

I don't know how to put all that together to understand who's side Solas is on, or what he's even trying to do at this point. I don't know who he thinks will actually survive if he tears down the veil, since everything he says seems to imply literally no one will survive. I don't know if he's talking more figuratively, as in culture and power structures will be turned on their heads, or if he means literal death of every living person. If he really believes that, literally speaking, the veil coming down means EVERYONE DIES, then I have no idea how he thinks that's saving the elven people. Does he mean there's some super secret pocket of ancient elves locked away that he's going to release by removing the veil? Slumbering dreamers, or whatever? Is this all a figurative thing, and he doesn't mean at all that everyone is going to die, but that the current social structures will be torn down and replaced with something else? As in, Dalish culture will be destroyed as we know it when everyone knows the truth, human noble structures will be challenged when elves get their magical strength and immortality back, etc. Is this just figurative speaking about how the world will change? I really don't know.

 

I do think Solas is an incredibly flawed character, but I'd be surprised if many people argued that point. I think he can't let go of what the world was like before and, to some extent, he just has to. Nothing can ever be "the same" again after that much time. I think he's always going to end up disappointed. What it really reads, to me, though, is that Solas can't connect with people that have lived their whole lives in the world after the veil. I think that's why his greatest fear is "dying alone". I don't think he believes he can ever really connect to someone from the modern world. Waking up in this world was a massive culture shock for him and he can't handle what people are now with their connections to the Fade so limited, including the elves. But I feel like you can make in-roads with him to change those views, a little. It seems like a work in progress. I'm hopeful that you can convince him, whether as the Inquisitor or someone else, that this isn't the only path. Or at least, I hope there's some compromise that doesn't fullstop end killing him to stop him from killing every person alive for.. question mark.

[Dai Grepher]

Zevran and Fenris are pretty lukewarm on the subject. Zevran is more at home at the city, but has a certain respect for the Dalish.

When asked how he feels about the Dalish, he says he doesn't feel anything about them.

Amethyne would be one who has respect for the Dalish and city elves alike.
 

We're at an interesting point now with elven characters, actually. Anyone who holds reverence for the Creators will now come off as delusional, given that the majority of myths about them are falsehoods and they were not gods or even benevolent rulers.

Now? They've always been delusional. Who believes a story about Creators who were themselves created? And by the sun and the earth no less. So who created the sun and the earth? Well, not the elvhen "gods".

And again, no city elves with any enthusiasm for elven culture, period.

Amethyne was raised to cherish ancient elven culture as well as alienage culture. She was also raised with Andrastian beliefs. I think she would be a great fit for the next game, since she would be interested in elven history and lore, approach it from a rational standpoint, but still have Andrastian beliefs. The story of Ameridan and his effort to reconcile the two different faiths could also play a part in her character development in worldstates where the truth was revealed about Ameridan. So she would want to promote elven culture of all kinds, but it wouldn't be a main focus. She would be flexible.

[fdrty]

 

I do think Solas is an incredibly flawed character, but I'd be surprised if many people argued that point. I think he can't let go of what the world was like before and, to some extent, he just has to. Nothing can ever be "the same" again after that much time. I think he's always going to end up disappointed. What it really reads, to me, though, is that Solas can't connect with people that have lived their whole lives in the world after the veil. I think that's why his greatest fear is "dying alone". I don't think he believes he can ever really connect to someone from the modern world.

I think Solas being flawed is exactly the point. He's like a better version of Anders: Anders was a bad character in DA 2 because his actions were senseless, reprehensible, but, worst of all didn't actually help him accomplish his goals. Yet he wasn't portrayed as the monster that he was after the fact.

 

I think really, the point where things would never be the same for Solas was the death of Mythal, not his awakening. That was the spark which led to his creating the veil, which led to the downfall of the elves. His greatest fear is dying alone because he knows he will die alone. The woman that he loved (possibly another point of contention between him and Elghar'nan) who he could never be with in life, who was murdered, so he can never be with her in death.

 

Solas, is in some ways, the ultimate 'sjw' (there's a term I didn't think I'd ever use in a non-ironic sense) as in he wants to destroy injustice so badly, that he is willing to pay any price, including the lives of countless innocents. Perhaps he sees himself as the inheritor of Mythal's duty, in that sense. He is so obsessed with his vision of a perfect world that he refuses to see the happiness he could have in this world, which is especially true if you romance him. The sad truth for the Solasmancers out there is that Solas may only consider you to be a momentary distraction, or, perhaps worse, he may only be with you because he sees Mythal in you (you frequently deal out justice). However, your role as an adjudicator is coming to an end, and with that you are no longer the Mythal-like figure he adores.

[Aliceeverafter]

 

Anyway, my only major complaint about the marriage was that it was done secretly for some reason. I really would have liked the companions to have been there, and comment, in a perfect world. But even just being there without talking would have been much better. Still, it gave me unprecedented feel

 

 

 

my only major gripe was ... that blasted mabari.

before that i was totally sold on Cullen.

after that i was 'i hope you like posh dog biscuits, you dirty blond peasant....'

 

eh, who am i kidding. I still married him.

dog sleeps outside though.

[TheRatPack55]

I think Solas being flawed is exactly the point. He's like a better version of Anders: Anders was a bad character in DA 2 because his actions were senseless, reprehensible, but, worst of all didn't actually help him accomplish his goals. Yet he wasn't portrayed as the monster that he was after the fact.

 

 

Very, very arguable... 

 

There's the fact that it was precisely Anders' actions what lead to the circles as they were before being pretty much abolished in DA lore, and of course the fact that a fair number of players didn't think his actions were reprehensible in the slightest.

 

But that is neither here nor there in this discussion, boy, did it veer off course...

[Catilina]

I think Solas being flawed is exactly the point. He's like a better version of Anders: Anders was a bad character in DA 2 because his actions were senseless, reprehensible, but, worst of all didn't actually help him accomplish his goals. Yet he wasn't portrayed as the monster that he was after the fact.

 

[...]

Anders / Justice/Vengeance very good character. He did it, that he said, made it impossible the compromise. And he accomplished his goal: the mage rebellion started. This was the goal. 

Tell me a revolutionist who is "good", Who never had done reprehensible thing. The revolutions are never pure. And still all over the world the people celebrate any revolution every year. Funny thing!

[fdrty]

Anders / Justice/Vengeance very good character. He did it, that he said, made it impossible the compromise. And he accomplished his goal: the mage rebellion started. This was the goal. 

Tell me a revolutionist who is "good", Who never had done reprehensible thing. The revolutions are never pure. And still all over the world the people celebrate any revolution every year. Funny thing!

 

The thing is, most revolutions are awful, both for the common people, who very often don't have much of a stake in anything, and also often the people they claim to be in favour of. They are periods of great upheaval and that allows the opportunistic and the power-hungry to take control for themselves (which is exactly the fate of the mages). There are far more revolutions which have ruined nations than ones which have genuinely made those places better.

 

Bear in mind, you have just written a defence for terrorism.

 

In any case, he didn't have to blow up the neutral chantry. He could have attacked the templars, you know, the people actually oppressing mages.

 

He made compromise impossible because the world does not and should not compromise with terrorists. If he was so righteous, he would have been able to win by using the merits of his argument to convince people. Instead he forced the Templar's hand, and that somehow justifies him all along? What? I kill someone, then get executed for it, and that proves me right when I say the government is unjust to do so?

 

In Inquisition the mages can be put back into a circle, which is probably the best option.

 

Very, very arguable... 

 

There's the fact that it was precisely Anders' actions what lead to the circles as they were before being pretty much abolished in DA lore, and of course the fact that a fair number of players didn't think his actions were reprehensible in the slightest.

 

But that is neither here nor there in this discussion, boy, did it veer off course...

 

A fair number do not consider ISIS to be reprehensible. But they are. A fair number of mages consider the rebels to be reprehensible, also.

 

I guess it is relevant because Ander's betrayal is what both ends his romance and makes a marriage to him impossible. That betrayal must sting for those who romanced him, though I never did as I couldn't stand him, just as I can't stand idealogues who never shut up about this injustice or that in real life. Beyond that, he was pushy, even when you weren't interested in him. IMO DA2 has the worst characters, and the worst romances. 

 

The thing with Solas is that his character arc goes from ally to antagonist, whereas Anders never became an antagonist. If I were writing DA, I'd have made Anders the villain of Inquisition, not Corypheus, but that, again, is an argument for another discussion.

[Catilina]

The thing is, most revolutions are awful, both for the common people, who very often don't have much of a stake in anything, and also often the people they claim to be in favour of. They are periods of great upheaval and that allows the opportunistic and the power-hungry to take control for themselves (which is exactly the fate of the mages). There are far more revolutions which have ruined nations than ones which have genuinely made those places better.

 

Bear in mind, you have just written a defence for terrorism.

 

In any case, he didn't have to blow up the neutral chantry. He could have attacked the templars, you know, the people actually oppressing mages.

 

He made compromise impossible because the world does not and should not compromise with terrorists. If he was so righteous, he would have been able to win by using the merits of his argument to convince people. Instead he forced the Templar's hand, and that somehow justifies him all along? What? I kill someone, then get executed for it, and that proves me right when I say the government is unjust to do so?

 

In Inquisition the mages can be put back into a circle, which is probably the best option.

Yes, most revolution are cruel for too many people. And still: the world celebrate the revolutions and the revolutioners (all nation, country, group of people his own revolution and revolutioners...). Yes, "our" heroes maybe red-handed bastards (what about the French Revolution for example?). Hero or villain: depending on how we look at it, and it lost or won.

 

By the way: the chantry is not neutral in this case. The chantry commands the templars. In Kirtkwall the chantry poorly done its job, ergo, the chantry was not innocent. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

What does this have to do about marriage? Aren't there already dozens if not hundreds of threads to discuss this offtopic stuff? 

[TheRatPack55]

 

A fair number do not consider ISIS to be reprehensible. But they are. A fair number of mages consider the rebels to be reprehensible, also.

 

I guess it is relevant because Ander's betrayal is what both ends his romance and makes a marriage to him impossible. That betrayal must sting for those who romanced him, though I never did as I couldn't stand him, just as I can't stand idealogues who never shut up about this injustice or that in real life. Beyond that, he was pushy, even when you weren't interested in him. IMO DA2 has the worst characters, and the worst romances. 

 

The thing with Solas is that his character arc goes from ally to antagonist, whereas Anders never became an antagonist. If I were writing DA, I'd have made Anders the villain of Inquisition, not Corypheus, but that, again, is an argument for another discussion.

 

Oh boy... it's a game.

 

There are no marriages in DA2. Except Sebastian, I guess, in very particular circumstances (I did that once, had fun). But the only thing that stung me in the Anders romance was that I couldn't support him more firmly, which I wanted to. I also think DA2 had the best characters and romances. But it's a game.

 

Otherwise, yeah, marriage. In DAI. I like the concept. I wish it was better executed, with the characters we got.

[fdrty]

Oh boy... it's a game.

 

There are no marriages in DA2. Except Sebastian, I guess, in very particular circumstances (I did that once, had fun). But the only thing that stung me in the Anders romance was that I couldn't support him more firmly, which I wanted to. I also think DA2 had the best characters and romances. But it's a game.

 

Otherwise, yeah, marriage. In DAI. I like the concept. I wish it was better executed, with the characters we got.

 

I'll try to get back on topic, as I derailed everything. Sorry.

 

I guess the point is that marriage is often seen, both in game and in real life, as the endgame of romances. Whether or not this is right, is, I guess, down to your prejudices. But I definitely wanted my Warden, Hawke and Inq to tie the knot with their partners.

 

If you want to compare the DA games, then you could definitely say that, marriage or no, the conclusion of romances, whether or not they run off into the sunset; or however else you want to define the conclusion of romances, Inquisition is the best.

 

I romanced Morrigan, then Merrill, then Cass.

 

I was disappointed that my Dwarf inq couldn't marry Big Cass, they were a cute couple and they would have just had the hairiest, muscle-iest babies. But at least they stayed together, and she was Divine, so that was that. It's as good an end to their romance as I could have expected, though a marriage option would have been nice, given that the Divine could always just change the rules (Andraste herself was married) and the proposal getting shot down kind of feels like a bait-and-switch.

 

When Morrigan left, I was genuinely surprised. I felt... bad for my warden (that's as good as I can describe how I felt) Then, during witch hunt, My warden left through the eluvian with her. But there wasn't really much follow up, we never got to see them together again, generally Witch hunt was disappointing, so as a payoff to a romance it wasn't great, despite Morrigan being IMO the best romance of the series and the most relevant one to the story. Compared to the beginning of DA2, where your sibling who you don't know or care about dies. Morrigan leaving is a lot better and the confrontation with her is what saves an otherwise very poor DLC episode. You get to know her, she becomes useful in a gameplay sense, you melt her icy exterior, then care about her, and then she betrays you and leaves, and Witch Hunt gives you a chance to confront her again, either for revenge or reconciliation. It's very cathartic, just like Trespasser, but way more vague and light in every other dimension.

 

It made no sense to me that Hawke and Merrill wouldn't stay together, although one thing I liked was Merrill's depression and her restlessness in the Hawke mansion. I liked that not everything was smooth sailing, but I didn't like that there was no way to really keep the two together. At least it made more sense for Merrill and Hawke to (kinda) break up, than it did for Hawke and Fenris, or Hawke and Isabela.

 

If you look at Solas compared to Anders, the Anders thing completely sideswiped me and it's clear that there is no way the Champion can maintain peace and stay by Anders. That romance is doomed, and it's doomed in one fell swoop by something I never saw coming. If I romanced Anders I'd have been annoyed that his (imo senseless) actions essentially rendered that romance dead. But Solas is genuinely kind of heartbreaking, and this is from someone who has only seen the romance cutscenes on youtube. I would feel immensely satisfied by that romance, even though it ends in heartbreak.

 

I guess my main point is, TLDR, it's an emotional storyline. What is important is how you feel, and Trespasser is definitely the most emotional, when it comes to romance, even if it gives a lot to some and little to others.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I guess it is relevant because Ander's betrayal is what both ends his romance and makes a marriage to him impossible. That betrayal must sting for those who romanced him, though I never did as I couldn't stand him, just as I can't stand idealogues who never shut up about this injustice or that in real life. Beyond that, he was pushy, even when you weren't interested in him. IMO DA2 has the worst characters, and the worst romances. 

 

The thing with Solas is that his character arc goes from ally to antagonist, whereas Anders never became an antagonist. If I were writing DA, I'd have made Anders the villain of Inquisition, not Corypheus, but that, again, is an argument for another discussion.

 

I'm not going to overly debate the terrorism vs justified acts of revolution bit too much concerning Anders, but I think you're speaking way too generally here. Anders's actions may have made it impossible for some people to stay with him due to their own beliefs and values, but certainly not everyone. My Hawke was happy to stay with him, and he was happy to stay with my Hawke. They shared a touching moment at end game in which they affirmed their love for each other and agreed to run away together. I assume we left with my BFF Isabela on the ship I helped her acquire, as I spoke to her about. In DA:I, it was made clear they're still happy together and had been working to help liberate more Circles. This shows they not only worked things out, but now Anders trusts Hawke to help him with his work without having to hide anything. I'm sure my (still alive) Hawke will return to Anders soon enough. Anders's actions didn't make it impossible to stay with him, it's just a matter of perspective. Hawke and Anders can have one of the more clearly defined happy endings for DA couples, if you pursue that. Solas's actions legitimately made it impossible.. because he left and refuses to let you be a part of his plans. Even if you wanted to stay with him, he's made it impossible. 

 

I think you are really jumping the gun on assumptions of Solas and Mythal's relationship, though. Maybe they were lovers? They never said that in the game, though. I don't think we know what's going on with them. It seems very quick, to me, to suggest that Solas could never love the Inquisitor because he still loves Mythal. We know he was moved to create the veil because of her death, but why beyond that is assumption. Maybe they were "together" in that way, or maybe he was just loyal as a friend. Maybe he just hated their betrayal and saw there wasn't any chance of correcting everything wrong with their society without her leadership, or that they would just keep killing anyone that spoke out against them if they would kill her. To me, the "Solas made the veil and can never love again because Mythal is his true love", story take some filling in of gaps that still exist with one's own assumptions. That would be a very cliche outcome, so it wouldn't be totally shocking, but a little disappointing, imo.