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Marriage in DA:I is dissapointed.


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#151
Catilina

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It's interesting that there's been a progression... in DAO, marrying Alistair or Anora (or getting a proposal from Zev) were all really dialogue options. Marrying Seb in DA2, there's some banter and he's a companion, so you can drag your husbando on adventures. Finally in DAI there are (admittedly sparse) wedding scenes, though only with Cullen do you see the actual marriage ceremony. Sera has banter though.

Perhaps DA4 will make an even bigger deal of it?


I'm highly suspicious of this on-topic post. What's your game.

The marriage would be nice option, but before we need a good romance story, without worthless. But I was satisfied with the end game of Fenris' and Anders' romance. This both was good, and it predicted to stay together. (I can not imagine that in the DA 2 was that it could have been credibly insert the mariage option – except the the choir boy....)



#152
LobselVith8

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While I suspect that we might have run out of things to discuss regarding marriage per se, it might be nice to give it another try.

 

I'd like to think that Revas has a nice Dalish ceremony when he gets married. Maybe some of the clans who joined the Inquisition at Skyhold head with him to his "holdings" in Kirkwall (presumably the land he now owns as Comte).



#153
Xilizhra

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It's interesting that there's been a progression... in DAO, marrying Alistair or Anora (or getting a proposal from Zev) were all really dialogue options. Marrying Seb in DA2, there's some banter and he's a companion, so you can drag your husbando on adventures. Finally in DAI there are (admittedly sparse) wedding scenes, though only with Cullen do you see the actual marriage ceremony. Sera has banter though.

Perhaps DA4 will make an even bigger deal of it?

Honestly, I didn't like Sera's marriage. It felt like an afterthought crammed into a story that didn't care about it, and there was absolutely no time for it to breathe.


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#154
vertigomez

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Honestly, I didn't like Sera's marriage. It felt like an afterthought crammed into a story that didn't care about it, and there was absolutely no time for it to breathe.


To each their own. I loved it. Felt as spontaneous as Sera and I enjoyed her "honeymoon" banter with all the companions.

Plus she looked hella cute in that dress, even if it was generic.

#155
Xilizhra

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To each their own. I loved it. Felt as spontaneous as Sera and I enjoyed her "honeymoon" banter with all the companions.

Plus she looked hella cute in that dress, even if it was generic.

Upon reflection, the problem might be more that I don't like Trespasser. Every DA game seems to require one crappy DLC, and Trespasser was DAI's. While one could argue that it's the least severe of the three, since it doesn't have the flat-out stupid mechanics and pointless story of Golems of Amgarrak or the breathtakingly idiotic railroading of Mark of the Assassin, it feels worse to me because it's the last piece of DAI content, and it's unskippable if you want to complete the story.


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#156
fdrty

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I'm not going to overly debate the terrorism vs justified acts of revolution bit too much concerning Anders, but I think you're speaking way too generally here. Anders's actions may have made it impossible for some people to stay with him due to their own beliefs and values, but certainly not everyone. My Hawke was happy to stay with him, and he was happy to stay with my Hawke. They shared a touching moment at end game in which they affirmed their love for each other and agreed to run away together. I assume we left with my BFF Isabela on the ship I helped her acquire, as I spoke to her about. In DA:I, it was made clear they're still happy together and had been working to help liberate more Circles. This shows they not only worked things out, but now Anders trusts Hawke to help him with his work without having to hide anything. I'm sure my (still alive) Hawke will return to Anders soon enough. Anders's actions didn't make it impossible to stay with him, it's just a matter of perspective. Hawke and Anders can have one of the more clearly defined happy endings for DA couples, if you pursue that. Solas's actions legitimately made it impossible.. because he left and refuses to let you be a part of his plans. Even if you wanted to stay with him, he's made it impossible. 

 

I guess my point was that marriage shouldn't be the end of every relationship: sometimes, things go wrong, or staying together is impossible. If you think that every romance option should end happily ever after, then you are arguing that Dragon Age should be more wish fulfilment - and Inquisition was the most wish-fulfilment of them all. I don't think Dragon Age should always end happily ever after, I think there should be tragedies, there should be bad endings, there should be romances that don't work out, and in that regard Solas' arc is very well done. He has a mysterious disappearance like Morrigan, but he also has the villainous deeds of Anders.

 

I didn't romance Anders - but I thought he was the worst character of the worst roster of companions in Dragon Age. But, I guess, that's neither here nor there. I still have absolutely no idea how anyone can justify his actions in blowing up the chantry, but again there are countless other places to discuss that. Either way, I am sure that, for a lot of people who romanced Anders, those actions really did put an end to things, and that would feel frustrating - it felt frustrating to me and I didn't even romance him. You can't really assume that most people would be OK with what Anders did, given the chaos that ensued and the countless innocents who died. Just because your Hawke was able to ignore that, you think that it is a simple choice for the player to make, and I guess it is if you aren't really much of a roleplayer.

 

The difference is that Inquisition puts Solas in the role of antagonist before he puts his crazy plan into action - it doesn't have him murder everyone then ask you if you're ok with it. The relationship is over, and there's no going back.

 

I think you are really jumping the gun on assumptions of Solas and Mythal's relationship, though. Maybe they were lovers? They never said that in the game, though. I don't think we know what's going on with them. It seems very quick, to me, to suggest that Solas could never love the Inquisitor because he still loves Mythal. We know he was moved to create the veil because of her death, but why beyond that is assumption. Maybe they were "together" in that way, or maybe he was just loyal as a friend. Maybe he just hated their betrayal and saw there wasn't any chance of correcting everything wrong with their society without her leadership, or that they would just keep killing anyone that spoke out against them if they would kill her. To me, the "Solas made the veil and can never love again because Mythal is his true love", story take some filling in of gaps that still exist with one's own assumptions. That would be a very cliche outcome, so it wouldn't be totally shocking, but a little disappointing, imo.

 

I know that I'm jumping the gun but there isn't a lot that's been revealed to us, so speculation is all we have right now.

 

I think it's fair to say Solas loved Mythal. He essentially destroyed the world after she died - there is no way that wasn't an emotional decision, especially given how emotional he is when he reunites with her (Flemeth). The only question is: what kind of love?

 

I think their relationship was one of unrequited love - we know Mythal was the wife of Elgar'nan and bore his children. We also know that Solas was regarded as both an Evanuris and a Forgotten one, able to move between groups, something which could have made it so that, even if Mythal reciprocated his feelings, it was impossible for them to be together. Also, his fear is 'dying alone' - yet he forces himself to be alone. I think this is because he is still grieving for his true love, Mythal. Everything about Solas, from his cadence, to the gradual revelation of his backstory, to his attire, which in inquisition is that of a wanderer, and that of a warrior in Trespasser, to his fantastic Trespasser theme, tells us that he is a sorrowful character, one who tried time and time again to do the right thing and has faced the ultimate punishment - the death of his loved one, and the death of his beloved nation.

 

I remember Solas' line, that he'd awoken to 'a world gone tranquil'. I think, when it comes to Solas, quite simply nothing of modern Thedas can compare to the Elves in their heyday. Some things may come close, but even Inquisitor Lavellan cannot match Mythal. That is why he is working so hard to undo his mistake - he is not, in his mind, destroying the world, but undoing its destruction at his hands. That is also why he refuses the Inquisitor if she offers to accompany him, a decision which would make no sense if he truly loved the Inquisitor, and no-one else.



#157
Catilina

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[...] Just because your Hawke was able to ignore that, you think that it is a simple choice for the player to make, and I guess it is if you aren't really much of a roleplayer. 

[...]

No. My Hawke was not "able to ignore that" because he love Anders. My Hawke supported Anders, and agree with him.

 

(My) roleplay thing: My Fenris romanced Hawke supported Fenris for his freedom, AND supported mages for their freedom.


Modifié par Catilina, 09 juillet 2016 - 07:12 .

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#158
Biotic Apostate

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You can't really assume that most people would be OK with what Anders did, given the chaos that ensued and the countless innocents who died. Just because your Hawke was able to ignore that, you think that it is a simple choice for the player to make, and I guess it is if you aren't really much of a roleplayer.

Maybe come down off your high horse. There are plenty people who roleplayed a Hawke that supported mage freedom and Anders' actions. Just because people roleplay differently from you, doesn't mean they're doing it wrong.


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#159
KaiserShep

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Upon reflection, the problem might be more that I don't like Trespasser. Every DA game seems to require one crappy DLC, and Trespasser was DAI's. While one could argue that it's the least severe of the three, since it doesn't have the flat-out stupid mechanics and pointless story of Golems of Amgarrak or the breathtakingly idiotic railroading of Mark of the Assassin, it feels worse to me because it's the last piece of DAI content, and it's unskippable if you want to complete the story.

 

 

I dunno. I would've pegged The Descent as the "crappy" DLC of this group, especially with that ridiculous boss battle at the end. Part of me suspects that maybe it's because it finally bolsters the idea that elves totally suck. :P



#160
Nocte ad Mortem

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I guess my point was that marriage shouldn't be the end of every relationship: sometimes, things go wrong, or staying together is impossible. If you think that every romance option should end happily ever after, then you are arguing that Dragon Age should be more wish fulfilment - and Inquisition was the most wish-fulfilment of them all. I don't think Dragon Age should always end happily ever after, I think there should be tragedies, there should be bad endings, there should be romances that don't work out, and in that regard Solas' arc is very well done. He has a mysterious disappearance like Morrigan, but he also has the villainous deeds of Anders.

 

I didn't romance Anders - but I thought he was the worst character of the worst roster of companions in Dragon Age. But, I guess, that's neither here nor there. I still have absolutely no idea how anyone can justify his actions in blowing up the chantry, but again there are countless other places to discuss that. Either way, I am sure that, for a lot of people who romanced Anders, those actions really did put an end to things, and that would feel frustrating - it felt frustrating to me and I didn't even romance him. You can't really assume that most people would be OK with what Anders did, given the chaos that ensued and the countless innocents who died. Just because your Hawke was able to ignore that, you think that it is a simple choice for the player to make, and I guess it is if you aren't really much of a roleplayer.

 

The difference is that Inquisition puts Solas in the role of antagonist before he puts his crazy plan into action - it doesn't have him murder everyone then ask you if you're ok with it. The relationship is over, and there's no going back.

 

People disagree about Anders and his actions. I supported what he did. A lot of people do support him, but a lot of people also don't. It's hard to believe anyone that posts on the BSN this far after the fact hasn't already discovered this.  :P

 

I'm not really fond of forced relationship ends, honestly. Forced, as in, there's no other alternative, not even if it's difficult and doesn't fit all roleplay approaches. I'm alright with having the LI make choices you might not agree with and making you choose whether to end it or not, such as with Anders. I'm alright with certain choices leading to the relationship ending terribly, like with a romanced Iron Bull that's loyal to the Qun in Trespasser. There was even something to be said for how Morrigan's relationship played out, having this whole extra segment where you have to follow up to actually solidify things with her via Witch Hunt. Having a "no win" scenario, though, I'm just not really that happy for. I'm not saying there should be no problems, or that the relationship should always play out in a way that every player will be happy with, but I feel like the harsh break style of Solas's relationship is ultimately unfulfilling and just feels.. so incomplete. If it were one I was interested in doing to begin with, I'd have been really disappointed with it. I like the idea of possible "fail state" courses romances can take, but not the idea of no chance for a "win state". 

 

(I just clipped the Solas/Mythal stuff because I didn't have much more to add, but I'm sure he did love her in some way, whether it was platonic/romantic/unrequited.)


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#161
Xilizhra

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I dunno. I would've pegged The Descent as the "crappy" DLC of this group, especially with that ridiculous boss battle at the end. Part of me suspects that maybe it's because it finally bolsters the idea that elves totally suck. :P

Firstly, they don't. Secondly, that wasn't the main problem with Trespasser; the main problem is that it had three plots, too many for a DLC, and focused way too much on the least interesting one, the qunari fight. The Exalted Council was basically an afterthought, and the remnants of Elvhenan were glossed over way, way too quickly.



#162
vertigomez

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Upon reflection, the problem might be more that I don't like Trespasser. Every DA game seems to require one crappy DLC, and Trespasser was DAI's. While one could argue that it's the least severe of the three, since it doesn't have the flat-out stupid mechanics and pointless story of Golems of Amgarrak or the breathtakingly idiotic railroading of Mark of the Assassin, it feels worse to me because it's the last piece of DAI content, and it's unskippable if you want to complete the story.


Definitely another case of YMMV. I loved Trespasser.
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#163
Xilizhra

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Definitely another case of YMMV. I loved Trespasser.

Why, though?



#164
Nocte ad Mortem

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I thought Trespasser was the least interesting of the Inquisition DLC, but ultimately not that bad. I hated Mark of the Assassin so much. I almost didn't finish it at all, but I kept hoping I could do something eventually to undermine Tallis. By far the worst DLC ever, imo. It made Trespasser look amazing. That said, Trespasser wasn't (imo) an awesome ending capstone like Legacy, by any means. It came across as disjointed and I wasn't overly satisfied with most of the conclusions. I didn't want to choose between disbanding and pledging myself to the Chantry. I wasn't super impressed with Solas god-moding the final meeting with the Qunari. I really liked having two arms. Overall, could have gone better.



#165
vertigomez

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Why, though?


Three reasons.

1.) I felt it wrapped up DAI nicely. My Inquisitor disbanded the Inquisition and is finally free of the mark that was rapidly killing her. Finally had a PC be realistically permanently injured. Knowing that Dorian's headed to Tevinter, that Varric and Hawke are taking care of Kirkwall, and that Leliana's making important changes as Divine is reassuring and reminds my Quis that she's got friends in the face of Solas's threat.

2.) I enjoyed the Solas and Qunari foreshadowing. Hnnnng.

3.) I also enjoyed the lore revelations, actually being able to speak to Solas after the reveal, and wandering through Eluvianland.
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#166
Hanako Ikezawa

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Definitely another case of YMMV. I loved Trespasser.

Meanwhile Trespasser pretty much ruined Inquisition for me, and Inquisition was my favorite Dragon Age game. 



#167
vertigomez

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Meanwhile Trespasser pretty much ruined Inquisition for me, and Inquisition was my favorite Dragon Age game.


Hence YMMV.
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#168
Nocte ad Mortem

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Since this is basically a romance thread, it really annoyed me how the Dorian romance ends off in Trespasser. I realize this was an existing problem, but I hoped it would sum up differently. Reflecting back on having offered to go to Tevinter with him, I've never really been able to look as positively on the romance or him, personally. His reasoning why you can't come with him; "You would just do it all yourself." Apparently, Dorian Pavus personally being responsible for saving Tevinter is more important than not only our relationship, but also it actually getting done, in general. I've lost so much respect for his character over that. He reminds me of his dad now, just interested in the legacy.


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#169
LobselVith8

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Meanwhile Trespasser pretty much ruined Inquisition for me, and Inquisition was my favorite Dragon Age game. 

 

The DLC in general wasn't that good, in my opinion. JoH continued the same flaws and favoritism as the main Inquisition game. I think one of the only good things about Trespasser was Varric's gifts to Lavellan (that's really the only positive thing I take away from it). Just my own personal thoughts, of course. Sorry that Trespasser didn't handle the conclusion of your romance with Josephine in a satisfying way.


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#170
Andraste_Reborn

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*shrug*

 

Put me down as another person who thought Trespasser was one of the best parts of the game. I love the companion reunions, the lore and the hints of the future. (And hey, I understand being disappointed that you couldn't get married to your love interest or that they moved to Tevinter/are trying to destroy the world, but at least your boy/girlfriends are alive. That's more than my 'canon' Inquisitor can say!)


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#171
Nocte ad Mortem

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*shrug*

 

Put me down as another person who thought Trespasser was one of the best parts of the game. I love the companion reunions, the lore and the hints of the future. (And hey, I understand being disappointed that you couldn't get married to your love interest or that they moved to Tevinter/are trying to destroy the world, but at least your boy/girlfriends are alive. That's more than my 'canon' Inquisitor can say!)

I imagine some Solas romancers are still wondering whether that's a good thing or not. lol Did you romance a Qun loyal Iron Bull, or?

 

But my thing with Dorian isn't that he went back to Tevinter. I really respected it about him that he wanted to reform Tevinter and expected early on that he would always go back. I'm not surprised there would be some contrived reason why the Inquisitor can't go, because I assume they want Dorian for the next game. I was only specifically annoyed by the way he turned you down. When you offer, he immediately goes to how he assumes you would be more influential than him. It's not really about the romance, even, I was just really disappointed with him as a person. It made me feel like this was all just about his daddy issues and proving he can still be a big deal without doing what daddy wants, not really about the people of Tevinter. If it was really about helping the people about Tevinter, why would he care who was responsible for positive results? Why wouldn't he want all the help he could get? I was just disappointed because I felt like he wasn't the person I thought he was after that. I guess that he'd "never really thought about" slavery should have been my first clue that maybe he wasn't just a great humanitarian. 

 

Of course, I am glad he isn't dead. He's not that bad.



#172
KaiserShep

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Definitely another case of YMMV. I loved Trespasser.


I do as well. It's easily my favorite DLC for the DA series thus far.

#173
nightscrawl

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Since this is basically a romance thread, it really annoyed me how the Dorian romance ends off in Trespasser. I realize this was an existing problem, but I hoped it would sum up differently. Reflecting back on having offered to go to Tevinter with him, I've never really been able to look as positively on the romance or him, personally. His reasoning why you can't come with him; "You would just do it all yourself." Apparently, Dorian Pavus personally being responsible for saving Tevinter is more important than not only our relationship, but also it actually getting done, in general. I've lost so much respect for his character over that. He reminds me of his dad now, just interested in the legacy.


But my thing with Dorian isn't that he went back to Tevinter. I really respected it about him that he wanted to reform Tevinter and expected early on that he would always go back. I'm not surprised there would be some contrived reason why the Inquisitor can't go, because I assume they want Dorian for the next game. I was only specifically annoyed by the way he turned you down. When you offer, he immediately goes to how he assumes you would be more influential than him. It's not really about the romance, even, I was just really disappointed with him as a person. It made me feel like this was all just about his daddy issues and proving he can still be a big deal without doing what daddy wants, not really about the people of Tevinter. If it was really about helping the people about Tevinter, why would he care who was responsible for positive results? Why wouldn't he want all the help he could get? I was just disappointed because I felt like he wasn't the person I thought he was after that. I guess that he'd "never really thought about" slavery should have been my first clue that maybe he wasn't just a great humanitarian. 
 
Of course, I am glad he isn't dead. He's not that bad.


I took it more along the lines that it's more meaningful if a Tevinter actually works toward saving it, rather than an outsider. Otherwise, it's kind of like the Orzammar situation in DAO. 4/6 of the DAO origins have nothing to do with dwarves and 2/3 of the races are not dwarves. Your Warden goes in there as an outsider, makes their own value judgements on a culture they were not born into, and makes a crucial decision that should have been made by the dwarves themselves. Obviously, the way this plays out in the game means the Warden PC is compelled to do so out of necessity, but the fact remains that an outsider has the influence. That has NEVER sat well with me.

So I can completely understand Dorian's reasoning here. Out of the three DA protagonists we've had so far, the Inquisitor is the most powerful, influential, and has already made numerous important decisions, including deciding the ruler of Orlais, the second largest and powerful nation in Thedas. I personally do NOT want an outsider to be solving these problems. In fact, it is one of the concerns I have regarding the protagonist of the next game especially if we're going into Tevinter. They don't have to have the protagonist in a position to decide these issues. They can certainly go the Neverwinter Nights route and have them be mostly an agent while other people make the big choices.

 

 

That said... I've never liked the post-Mythal conversation either, but for different reasons. Dorian is going to respond how he responds, but I felt that the Inquisitor's options were too limited, especially for a romance.

 


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#174
Hanako Ikezawa

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The DLC in general wasn't that good, in my opinion. JoH continued the same flaws and favoritism as the main Inquisition game. I think one of the only good things about Trespasser was Varric's gifts to Lavellan (that's really the only positive thing I take away from it). Just my own personal thoughts, of course. Sorry that Trespasser didn't handle the conclusion of your romance with Josephine in a satisfying way.

Thanks, though that is only one of many issues I have with Trespasser. 



#175
BansheeOwnage

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I wonder if Cullen comments on my atheism. I can't remember. I romanced him as a confused agnostic so maybe it didn't come up.

I don't remember anything specific, unfortunately, since the last time I played through the chantry scene without romancing him was a long time ago, and when I did romance him, I took the heart option, of course. Which leads me to a tangent somewhat related to the thread topic at least, that is: romance dialogue. I'm not a fan of the Click Heart, Get Romance style, for two main reasons.

 

1. It means that if you want to be romantic in your romance (or actually initiate it), you can't say any of the other options, even if they are interesting/better for your RP, etc.

 

2. Because there is only one heart option. If there were usually 2 or 3 options instead (1 for simple comments), that would not only be infinitely better for RP, but wouldn't railroad all Inquisitors into the same romance outside of romance-specific scenes.

 

Ideally, I'd love to be able to (generally, not always) flirt in either an awkward way, the fairly standard suggestive way it currently usually is, or a very direct way. And I'd personally love to make a character who is awkward in relationships, since our characters are usually great at everything, and because I'd find it relatable. There's something personally appealing to me about someone who's more visibly nervous when flirting than when fighting eldritch abominations :P

 

Either way, belief is nowhere near a deal-breaker for Cullen. Now, here's a random unrelated shot of that scene (the Chantry after WPHW) for no reason.

Spoiler

The problem is that the only thing she ever mentions disliking about the religion is that it is "elfy". It's not that she has a problem with what you actually believe, she has a problem with you being elfy. The problem with the religion is ultimately that she associates it with elves, and she has a problem with elves. The reason that I see it as racism is because the crux of the problem she has isn't the religion or any components of the religion, it's the association it has with "elfiness" that makes it a problem.  

This is why I find "Elfy Sera" in Heroes of Dragon Age (the joke Christmas character along with Santa Blackwall) so hilarious. The look on her face is perfect :D It's like making Vivienne wear Plaidweave... Come to think of it, that was one of their April Fools characters, ha.

tumblr_nzixuw8phG1qfh2bxo1_500.png

 

Thanks. Yeah, I've never done it. It just really isn't my thing...

It really isn't mine either, however, I did do it on my Cullenmance playthrough... specifically and completely so I could hear the Inquisitor say "Oh, it's sturdy" in a suggestive way, referring to Cullen's desk and whether or not her prank would work :whistle:

 

Hawke and their LI never broke up (unless you broke up with them mid-game or something). They were temporarily, physically separated... but that's not at all the same thing.

As someone in a long distance relationship, I can definitely echo that being separated =/= breaking up.

 

Since this is basically a romance thread, it really annoyed me how the Dorian romance ends off in Trespasser. I realize this was an existing problem, but I hoped it would sum up differently. Reflecting back on having offered to go to Tevinter with him, I've never really been able to look as positively on the romance or him, personally. His reasoning why you can't come with him; "You would just do it all yourself." Apparently, Dorian Pavus personally being responsible for saving Tevinter is more important than not only our relationship, but also it actually getting done, in general. I've lost so much respect for his character over that. He reminds me of his dad now, just interested in the legacy.

Whenever things pop up like this, I can clearly see that they're about railroading and Bioware not wanting too many diverging stories more than what the characters would actually say, so I blame Bioware and try not to let those lines affect my view of the characters.


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