109 réponses à ce sujet

[SKAR]

They were more machine than organic.

You're thinking of Darth Vader, not Shepard.

[Revan Reborn]

Forgive me, but that's... a bit strange. ME was at least sprinkled with transhumanism from the start. In fact, that's what all the sidequesting about biotics was. 

 

If you want that to stop, or even reduce from that level, then sure. But I just find it strange when you use the words "allow Mass Effect to remain Mass Effect" about it.

My point is ME has barely broached the subject. It talked about the implications of biotics with Kaiden in ME1 and Jack as well as Miranda in ME2, but it's never been the main focus. Whereas in cyberpunk, such as Bladerunner, transhumanism is very much one of the central themes of that genre. Look at Deus Ex, another perfect example of transhumanism in a cyberpunk setting. ME is not cyberpunk, so I don't believe it's appropriate to pursue that direction anymore than the franchise already has.

[Gannayev of Dreams]

Humans being enhanced by implants and genetic manipulation? Yea I'd like to see that. Seems like a necessary step to keep up with some of the other species we'll encounter.

[Vortex13]

Personally, I would like to see any mentions of this topic be geared more towards the genetic/biological side rather than cybernetic in ME:A. As many have already said, games like Desus EX and films like Blade Runner capture that particular facet of transhumanism rather nicely; plus I would prefer not to give BioWare more excuses to write another Pinocchio-bot story. Genetically modifying oneself to better operate on a given planet, or just taking traits of other species and incorporating them into your own is not something that has been covered extensively in mainstream science fiction, and certainly not in any unbiased light. Usually, its the bad guys that want to splice alien qualities into their own DNA, while the good guys are pure blooded humans. I would like to see this topic explored more in depth. 

 

 

If the genetic mapping and technology is developed enough and stable enough; as is mentioned as far back as ME 1; then why wouldn't you want to give yourself the lifting capacity of an ant, or the photosynthesis of plants? Sure technology could accomplish the same things, but then you are putting time and effort into manufacturing equipment that compensates for human inefficiencies, rather than doing away with said inefficiencies all together. Imagine the resources a colonization effort could save, if the colonists could survive in extreme environments, covering vastly different atmospheres, without the need for protective suits not unlike the Rachni. Think of the ease involved in construction or defensive of your colonies if the average citizen had the muscle mass and bone density of Elcor, minus their slow speed. Consider how powerful a society would be if they combined the use of technological advancement alongside genetic manipulation.

 

I have only seen a handful of games approach such a topic, and in a balanced light. XCOM: EW dealt with this in the form of Gene modded soldiers (and MEC troopers for the cybernetic side of things), and it did raise some interesting thoughts about how far would we be willing to push and change ourselves in order to survive. The other title that broached the subject rather well (IMO) was in the form of the character Slim from the game Evolve.

 

Spoiler

 

As per the wiki:

 

Medic that steals the heals. Slim, a veteran of the third Mutagen Wars from the rebel side, as opposed to Hyde and Lazarus who fought in Sol Guard. According to commentary from Bucket, Val, Hyde, and Lazarus, he is one of numerous rebels who spliced their genes to take on insect-like traits. Whether Slim's own extensive modification was the standard or if he was a special case is unknown. According to him, he has an extra set of lungs for CO2 recycles, and his exoskeleton allows him to survive in the void of space. 

 

He is an interesting character in that game as well, because of his treatment by the other hunters. Some see him as a sort of freak, or potential bounty to turn in, some even going so far as to insinuate that he is less than human, being a 'bug man'. While others merely see him as another member of the team and treat him no differently than the rest.

[straykat]

Personally, I would like to see any mentions of this topic be geared more towards the genetic/biological side rather than cybernetic in ME:A. As many have already said, games like Desus EX and films like Blade Runner capture that particular facet of transhumanism rather nicely; plus I would prefer not to give BioWare more excuses to write another Pinocchio-bot story. Genetically modifying oneself to better operate on a given planet, or just taking traits of other species and incorporating them into your own is not something that has been covered extensively in mainstream science fiction, and certainly not in any unbiased light. Usually, its the bad guys that want to splice alien qualities into their own DNA, while the good guys are pure blooded humans. I would like to see this topic explored more in depth. 

 

 

If the genetic mapping and technology is developed enough and stable enough; as is mentioned as far back as ME 1; then why wouldn't you want to give yourself the lifting capacity of an ant, or the photosynthesis of plants? Sure technology could accomplish the same things, but then you are putting time and effort into manufacturing equipment that compensates for human inefficiencies, rather than doing away with said inefficiencies all together. Imagine the resources a colonization effort could save, if the colonists could survive in extreme environments, covering vastly different atmospheres, without the need for protective suits not unlike the Rachni. Think of the ease involved in construction or defensive of your colonies if the average citizen had the muscle mass and bone density of Elcor, minus their slow speed. Consider how powerful a society would be if they combined the use of technological advancement alongside genetic manipulation.

 

I have only seen a handful of games approach such a topic, and in a balanced light. XCOM: EW dealt with this in the form of Gene modded soldiers (and MEC troopers for the cybernetic side of things), and it did raise some interesting thoughts about how far would we be willing to push and change ourselves in order to survive. The other title that broached the subject rather well (IMO) was in the form of the character Slim from the game Evolve.

 

Spoiler

 

As per the wiki:

 

Medic that steals the heals. Slim, a veteran of the third Mutagen Wars from the rebel side, as opposed to Hyde and Lazarus who fought in Sol Guard. According to commentary from Bucket, Val, Hyde, and Lazarus, he is one of numerous rebels who spliced their genes to take on insect-like traits. Whether Slim's own extensive modification was the standard or if he was a special case is unknown. According to him, he has an extra set of lungs for CO2 recycles, and his exoskeleton allows him to survive in the void of space. 

 

He is an interesting character in that game as well, because of his treatment by the other hunters. Some see him as a sort of freak, or potential bounty to turn in, some even going so far as to insinuate that he is less than human, being a 'bug man'. While others merely see him as another member of the team and treat him no differently than the rest.

 

It's already bad enough that we leave the galaxy. I probably won't even get a good space bar anymore. I'd at least like colonists to remain human. If the whole purpose turns out to not be human, they should have just given the series a rest (which I thought they should have done in the first place).

[RoboticWater]

I don't think it should. BioWare's frankly idiotic definition of "human" aside, the premise of ME:A almost completely prohibits many of the "transcendental" sci-fi themes. We're in a completely different galaxy with no guarantee of survival; zany genetic experiments can wait.

 

Even if I trusted BioWare to give us an unbiased portrayal of such a complex topic–I'm certain some of their writers could, but after the original trilogy's insistence that "meat=intelligence," they'll need to prove that they have a more enlightened view of sci-fi concepts before moving forward with any of them–ME:A isn't the kind of game to support it.

[TevinterSupremacist]

Yeah, sure, why not.

[In Exile]

I don't think it should. BioWare's frankly idiotic definition of "human" aside, the premise of ME:A almost completely prohibits many of the "transcendental" sci-fi themes. We're in a completely different galaxy with no guarantee of survival; zany genetic experiments can wait.

 

Even if I trusted BioWare to give us an unbiased portrayal of such a complex topic–I'm certain some of their writers could, but after the original trilogy's insistence that "meat=intelligence," they'll need to prove that they have a more enlightened view of sci-fi concepts before moving forward with any of them–ME:A isn't the kind of game to support it.

 

Ah, kindred soul. I for one appreciated Bioware's nuanced approach to the question of what defines humanity and the thought experiments engendered by artificial life and intelligence with the simple answer of "Meat. Being made of meant. Obviously." Though let's be fair - Bioware also didn't even really get what organic life is, having paid no attention to cyanobacteria (both organic life and providing no danger of ever building AI).  

[TheJediSaint]

Eh, people act like transhumanism is something new or something that's going to happen in the future.

 

Humans surpassed their physical limitations when they developed tool building. Arguably, we got around many of our mental limitations when we developed writing.

 

With Andromeda, it's not the changes to humanity that I'm interested. It's what we do with them.

 

Namely, explore new worlds, seeks out new civilizations, and kill stuff with our biotic and technological super powers.

[In Exile]

People when they talk about transhumanism really talk about physical modifications to the human form that are novel for us. People did deal with these ideas as transhuman. See all those writers lamenting the loss of memory due to the printing press.

[Cheviot]

People when they talk about transhumanism really talk about physical modifications to the human form that are novel for us. People did deal with these ideas as transhuman. See all those writers lamenting the loss of memory due to the printing press.

Happened a long time before the printing press; Socrates thought the invention of writing itself ruined memory.

 

The most interesting thing about transhumanism - at least for me - is the question of identity, of "humanity", a question that Mass Effect dealt with throughout the series, especially with the Geth and Quarians, and also with Shepard's doubts about his own identity during the assault on the Cerberus base and (arguably) in the Citadel dlc mission.

[TheJediSaint]

People when they talk about transhumanism really talk about physical modifications to the human form that are novel for us. People did deal with these ideas as transhuman. See all those writers lamenting the loss of memory due to the printing press.

This is why I'm not a fan of the term "transhumanism".

 

They way I see it, overcoming our limitations isn't transcending humanity. It's being human.

[fdrty]

I don't particularly want to see Mass Effect take on transhumanism. Mostly because transhumanism is more suited to cyberpunk, and mass effect may have the cyber part, but it's a million miles from punk. At best, an attempt to take on transhumanism will result in either a flawed or simplistic execution of an interesting idea, or cyberpunk-lite window dressing. At worst, Mass Effect becomes 90's dark and edgy.

 

Mass Effect is space opera. Space opera is about exploration, colonisation, liberty. Space opera is generally optimistic, while cyberpunk is generally pessimistic.

 

 

This is why I'm not a fan of the term "transhumanism".

 

They way I see it, overcoming our limitations isn't transcending humanity. It's being human.

 

I think it's important for people to realise that there are many who do not see transhumanism as logical, inevitable, or even desirable.

[Cheviot]

I don't particularly want to see Mass Effect take on transhumanism.

So you don't want to play the previous games?

[TheJediSaint]

I think it's important for people to realise that there are many who do not see transhumanism as logical, inevitable, or even desirable.

 

I don't think Big-T Transhumanism is logical, inevitable, or desirable.

 

Namely, ditching the meat for circuitry. I, for one, like being a squishy meatbag.

[Vortex13]

I don't think Big-T Transhumanism is logical, inevitable, or desirable.

 

Namely, ditching the meat for circuitry. I, for one, like being a squishy meatbag.

 

 

Yeah, I don't see the technological singularity, and the Matrix as this inevitable destination for everyone either. 

 

The more interesting question I would like to see is how humanity as a whole would react to sections of it splitting off in pursuit of transcendence and those that don't. You would have conflict, political tensions, drama, etc. all the things that can make a compelling story.

 

It's always annoying to me when a setting tries to make one way or the other seem more appealing, they are both valid for different reasons. 

[RoboticWater]

I don't think Big-T Transhumanism is logical, inevitable, or desirable.

 

Namely, ditching the meat for circuitry. I, for one, like being a squishy meatbag.

Isn't that, right there, the definition of transhumanism? I don't care what Webster says; transhumanism as a sci-fi term is essentially defined by technological human evolution that exceeds what most view as "logical, inevitable, or desirable." It has (as it should) an inherently shifting definition.

 

You may not agree, but there is certainly a case to be made for "ditching the meat for circuitry," as at least an option if not an inevitability. I don't think Mass Effect, a game series that so recently posited that synthetics and organics are somehow destined to destroy each other unless someone comes along and zaps them with green radiation, is the right place to talk about it though.

[Lady Artifice]

I don't particularly want to see Mass Effect take on transhumanism. Mostly because transhumanism is more suited to cyberpunk, and mass effect may have the cyber part, but it's a million miles from punk. At best, an attempt to take on transhumanism will result in either a flawed or simplistic execution of an interesting idea, or cyberpunk-lite window dressing. At worst, Mass Effect becomes 90's dark and edgy.

 

Mass Effect is space opera. Space opera is about exploration, colonisation, liberty. Space opera is generally optimistic, while cyberpunk is generally pessimistic.

 

 

 

I think it's important for people to realise that there are many who do not see transhumanism as logical, inevitable, or even desirable.

 

 

Just an offhand note: Ray Kurzweil, the futurist who predicted the internet, thinks that implanting the human body with technology is pretty likely to come into common practice. This century in fact.

[In Exile]

Isn't that, right there, the definition of transhumanism? I don't care what Webster says; transhumanism as a sci-fi term is essentially defined by technological human evolution that exceeds what most view as "logical, inevitable, or desirable." It has (as it should) an inherently shifting definition.

You may not agree, but there is certainly a case to be made for "ditching the meat for circuitry," as at least an option if not an inevitability. I don't think Mass Effect, a game series that so recently posited that synthetics and organics are somehow destined to destroy each other unless someone comes along and zaps them with green radiation, is the right place to talk about it though.

A series whose very cynical take on the Federation trope borrowed from Babylon 5, to boot. Who knew that all our problems would be avoided if we were just relatively biologically similar. That totally worked out great for the Milky Way in the past. The totally organic krogan absolutely did not flirt with extinction.

That said I think the idea of transhuman as based in circuitry is slowly losing favour as our fears of genetic modification become ever more real and things like growing limbs and organs becomes less and less fantastical than actually creating mechanical substitutes.

[Gwydden]

A series whose very cynical take on the Federation trope borrowed from Babylon 5, to boot. Who knew that all our problems would be avoided if we were just relatively biologically similar. That totally worked out great for the Milky Way in the past. The totally organic krogan absolutely did not flirt with extinction.

That said I think the idea of transhuman as based in circuitry is slowly losing favour as our fears of genetic modification become ever more real and things like growing limbs and organs becomes less and less fantastical than actually creating mechanical substitutes.

Ah, so it all comes down to the age old question, the ultimate conundrum of...

 

Spoiler

... mutants versus cyborgs!

 

In seriousness, I agree transhumanism would just feel out of place in Mass Effect. It's never been a major theme of the series, and when it's come up it's usually been dealt with poorly. If someone really needs to scratch that itch in RPG form, there's always Deus Ex: Mankind Divided and Cyberpunk 2077.

[RoboticWater]

A series whose very cynical take on the Federation trope borrowed from Babylon 5, to boot. Who knew that all our problems would be avoided if we were just relatively biologically similar. That totally worked out great for the Milky Way in the past. The totally organic krogan absolutely did not flirt with extinction.

That said I think the idea of transhuman as based in circuitry is slowly losing favour as our fears of genetic modification become ever more real and things like growing limbs and organs becomes less and less fantastical than actually creating mechanical substitutes.

I think the fundamental theme explored by transhumanism is: what are we losing? No one now is going to argue about how the invention of the printing press has destroyed humanity because we've internalized the technology. Maybe my definition is a bit broad, but any article you see about "the kids these days and their X! Back in my day we had Y and appreciated life more!" is in some way about transhumanism. It's not so glamorous as tech implants, but media like Wall-E and Black Mirror show that there there still is concern about what technology has changed about us.

[In Exile]

I think the fundamental theme explored by transhumanism is: what are we losing? No one now is going to argue about how the invention of the printing press has destroyed humanity because we've internalized the technology. Maybe my definition is a bit broad, but any article you see about "the kids these days and their X! Back in my day we had Y and appreciated life more!" is in some way about transhumanism. It's not so glamorous as tech implants, but media like Wall-E and Black Mirror show that there there still is concern about what technology has changed about us.

I agree that this is very much a key theme, though I don't know if I would say it's "the" theme. I see the endeavour as more about exploring what it means to be human - the question of loss is just a way for us to explore whether that is so important to how we define ourselves.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Isn't transhumanism already widely accepted in the setting anyway? Everyone uses a translator implant, Alliance soldiers almost universally follow gene therapy, and Shepard being half a cyborg is barely commented upon. They're not humans, but the Quarians are, I think, said to use quite a few enhancements, and also accept Geth programs in their suits to help them acclimate to Rannoch, and no one seems offended at all.

 

Reaper technology is always viewed in a bad light, but that's because of indoctrination, not because it's seen as inherently evil.

[In Exile]

Isn't transhumanism already widely accepted in the setting anyway? Everyone uses a translator implant, Alliance soldiers almost universally follow gene therapy, and Shepard being half a cyborg is barely commented upon. They're not humans, but the Quarians are, I think, said to use quite a few enhancements, and also accept Geth programs in their suits to help them acclimate to Rannoch, and no one seems offended at all.

Reaper technology is always viewed in a bad light, but that's because of indoctrination, not because it's seen as inherently evil.

Except for the frothing at the mouth lunacy that is the hard line between "organic" life and AI. This tried to be a theme in ME1 but came up rarely and ME2 and ME3 tried dealing with it when it came to the geth. It wasn't very well done. I think the idea is less that the game just has such features as kind of control+C science fiction which is what ME1 did and rather tries to actually explore these themes.

[Xen]

Hell no. The writers of this series have about as much knowledge of Transhumanism as American Republicans do of  how vaginas work. Everything about the subject (along with anything having to do with AI's at large) in the series was cringeworthy, but despite this Biower saw fit to get on their soapbox and make (extremely bad) analogies to historical or modern day racism for everyone who didn't swallow their view of the subject (whatever the fuсk it was, I still haven't figured out if they they think hypothetical AGI's are real people or if meat is actually sacred).
 

The less uninformed, preachy verbal diarrhea they disgorge upon us regarding this subject matter, the better.

However, judging that the guy who is helming this project is the same one who came up with the complete nonsense that is Synthesis as the "ideal" endpoint to the original trilogy, I expect more psuedo religious futurism crap, not less.