30 odpowiedzi w tym temacie

[congokong]

Why is it so unusual for a reaper to be killed? We see some get destroyed throughout the trilogy. And where did Bryson get the notion that whatever did kill the reaper would still be around after millions of years?

Despite this, Bryson starts searching for the leviathan and believes things like blackout crimes and alien sightings are all connected to whatever killed a reaper millions of years ago.

He even has a crackpot theory that the rachni were brainwashed or something to be used against the reapers despite that never being enough to seriously stop them. Plus, if leviathan wanted to remain hidden, why would it make rachni armies?

Then the Alliance for some reason supports this craziness with resources. It all turns out to be right, but logic did not back up the search.

[rossler]

Rachni were indoctrinated by the Reapers. It's how the Rachni Wars started. They attacked the Krogan, but the Reapers made them do it through mind control. It's not really a crackpot theory. 

[congokong]

Rachni were indoctrinated by the Reapers. It's how the Rachni Wars started. They attacked the Krogan, but the Reapers made them do it through mind control. It's not really a crackpot theory. 

First, that isn't the theory Bryson had. He specifically says it being the reapers doesn't make sense due to it being the wrong timing and the rachni's lack of reaper tech. Second, that's your own crackpot theory.

[andy6915]

First, that isn't the theory Bryson had. He specifically says it being the reapers doesn't make sense due to it being the wrong timing and the rachni's lack of reaper tech. Second, that's your own crackpot theory.

 

The Leviathans were ones that mind controlled the Rachni, not the Reapers (which is appears you already know). They were meant to take over the Citadel and cut off the Citadel relay so that the Leviathan's could possibly develop a countermeasure before they could FTL to the galaxy, pretty much doing the Ilos Prothean's idea except with more violence and bluntness. Either that or, knowing about their own creation that controls the Reapers, they were meant to actually destroy the Catalyst upon seizing the Citadel. Who knows exactly what would happen at that point, but destroying the Catalyst would probably screw the Reapers up pretty bad.

 

Basically, they were the Leviathan's attempt at a proxy war with the Reapers.

[congokong]

The Leviathans were ones that mind controlled the Rachni, not the Reapers (which is appears you already know). They were meant to take over the Citadel and cut off the Citadel relay so that the Leviathan's could possibly develop a countermeasure before they could FTL to the galaxy, pretty much doing the Ilos Prothean's idea except with more violence and bluntness. Either that or, knowing about their own creation that controls the Reapers, they were meant to actually destroy the Catalyst upon seizing the Citadel. Who knows exactly what would happen at that point, but destroying the Catalyst would probably screw the Reapers up pretty bad.

 

Basically, they were the Leviathan's attempt at a proxy war with the Reapers.

Where is your proof of this? Or are you merely speculating?

[andy6915]

Where is your proof of this? Or are you merely speculating?

 

Speculating of course. Rachi are immune to the Reaper's indoctrination, or at least queens are. Their own song drowns out the indoctrination. This is outright proven in ME3, with the real Rachni queen. So if Reapers couldn't control Rachni, process of elimination means that the only other possibility is with the only other thing in the galaxy that can control minds*. Factor in the Leviathan evidence of the timing being off for it being the Reapers and stuff, and the speculation goes from crackpot theory to a decently educated and substantiated one.

 

*Well, there is the Thorian. But speculating that the Thorian was the cause of the Rachi wars really is a crackpot theory, at least this one has actual evidence.

[congokong]

Speculating of course. Rachi are immune to the Reaper's indoctrination, or at least queens are. Their own song drowns out the indoctrination. This is outright proven in ME3, with the real Rachni queen. So if Reapers couldn't control Rachni, process of elimination means that the only other possibility is with the only other thing in the galaxy that can control minds*. Factor in the Leviathan evidence of the timing being off for it being the Reapers and stuff, and the speculation goes from crackpot theory to a decently educated and substantiated one.

*Well, there is the Thorian. But speculating that the Thorian was the cause of the Rachi wars really is a crackpot theory, at least this one has actual evidence.

It is a crackpot theory because Bryson knew almost nothing about the supposed Leviathan when he found it; including if it even existed (hence the OP). And have you considered that maybe the rachni were that way on their own?

[SwobyJ]

Hackett wants insight on the Reapers.

 

Is willing to allow researchers pursue any lead.

 

One attempts to make connections to find such a lead.

 

As we see, he misses some details, but inevitably touches the edge of the existence of the Leviathan.

 

Gets an orb, and Leviathan tries to dominate his assistant to kill him, but only once Commander Shepard arrives, so this is a move of desperation whereas otherwise it is likely that this is one of maybe many times of the millennia where the Leviathan got civilizations to 'wave away' any trace of their existence.

 

 

 

Bryson started his search by learning of the Batarians finding a Reaper before the invasion. The Leviathan of Dis may (now) be theorized to be a legendary title that leaked out, coming from information of what the Batarians may have learned had killed it, but it seems it indoctrinated those researching it and lead them to sabotage Hegemony defenses making the Reaper invasion easier and faster than otherwise.

 

It isn't so much a matter of "A Reaper can be killed? Big deal!" but more "Could there be a single entity that can kill a Reaper by itself? Could it be useful? Could be side with us? Should we even pursue it, even with our survival of the Reapers at stake?"

 

It isn't like a huge portion of Alliance resources are going to this Task Force. It is select individuals with particular talents that are better off on this thing than, say, on the Crucible or whatever.

 

 

But the information didn't come out of nowhere. It started with information about a Reaper that had data about it indicating that it was killed('') by a single entity. The investigation would have ended there, but Bryson then combined his supposed 'crackpot theory' about the rachni (showing that he was doing research on the Reapers and rumors of Leviathan as early as around ME2, likely on Hackett's orders) with it and combing of evidence elsewhere, to find *possible* locations that a 'Leviathan' *may* be.

 

It WAS a shot in the dark and it WAS a conspiracy theory tier speculation, as you were getting at - but it was a shot that hit and the theorizing was well supported. Here's what they learned about Leviathan before Bryson was shot:

-The Batarians retrieved the Leviathan of Dis, the Reaper, decades ago.

-Speculation that IF it was a creature or creatures, rather than synthetics or anything else, then based on knowledge about organic creatures, it may have a similar nature and needs as the rachni.

-There were scattered mythologies about the Leviathans. This one is big. It has their shapes and clues to their natures. These were not entirely scrubbed clean by their followers, though they did such a good job that it required a great effort to match very few archaeological sites in order to get any match.

-Since it looked like they were floating, ship-sized creatures, it is guessed that they may not be able to just self-propel, but they need eezo in order to be possibly spacefaring. 

 

 

 

Again, yes, I'd agree that this is craziness - but with the Reapers being discovered and Shepard buying the galaxy some time, Hackett is willing to entertain any craziness.

Again, yes, the logic does not back up the search - but it followed the eccentric pattern of Bryson enough that as long as he was given resources, he'd go with it. He was likely getting at least just enough evidence to report to Hackett and continue his work, and only within the context of dealing with a worried Hackett that had just faced the power of just one Reaper. The game had changed since 2183, and 2184-2185 (and surrounding months) were all about scattered attempts to find whatever possible to counter the Reapers - not enough time and too scattered of efforts, but attempts nonetheless, that finally, in the case of Task Force Aurora (who knows what else is out there?) bore enough fruit in 2186 (artifacts) to have Hackett order Shepard to assist in pushing forward to any major breakthroughs, as soon as possible.

 

Its pretty clear that in 2183-2184 they had almost nothing to go on but a job to do, and in 2184-2185 they had very little to go on. It is only in 2185-2186(87?) that bigger breakthroughs began to occur. Just in time for the war, though now also impeded by Reaper forces (again, cue calling in Shepard).

[SwobyJ]

It is a crackpot theory because Bryson knew almost nothing about the supposed Leviathan when he found it; including if it even existed (hence the OP). And have you considered that maybe the rachni were that way on their own?

 

I'm sure many consider that the rachni were that way on their own.

 

But this is a specific organization that is meant to pursue even the more crackpot of theories, and it is led by a man willing to entertain any of them, as long as they are actionable.

 

They probably hit many dead ends before 'stumbling' upon enough leads taking them to the first artifacts, which are normally cleared away from any detection by civilizations.

 

There was a lot of luck involved, but Shepard's actions probably bought the time and maybe even distraction to Leviathan and the Reapers to allow a 'breaching of the darkness' of the Leviathans' hiding place, and an opportunity to keep the Reapers from eliminating them, and just enough encouragement for the Leviathans to join the war.

 

Its not a big deal that some were given mandate to pursue any possible, even slight lead that just might bring insight onto the Reapers. Hackett presumably knew very little about them post-ME1 and ME2-time didn't seem to offer much more. But him trying anything he could.. with the combination of his supposed military role and scientific mind.. makes sense.

[aoibhealfae]

Dr Bryson's research was based on the Leviathan of Dis which was taken by the Batarian hegemony and he thought it was a rogue reaper that did it. He didn't know that it was an ancient species that created the reapers. A reaper could live for million of years, and even if it was dead, studying it could still be useful in the war. 

[themikefest]

Its hard to say if Leviathan was involved with the Rachni. What I'm a little surprised about is that Levaiathan didn't take control of someone to use as a spokeperson to warn everyone about the reapers.

 

For me, the one thing that doesn't make sense in the dlc, is that Shepard never asked about the catalyst. He/she asks about the crucible. Why wouldn't Shepard ask about the catalsyt?

[andy6915]

It is a crackpot theory because Bryson knew almost nothing about the supposed Leviathan when he found it; including if it even existed (hence the OP). And have you considered that maybe the rachni were that way on their own?

 

So the claim that their own voices were hushed by a sour yellow sound note that forced them to sing to that sour yellow tune instead of their own was... Natural? That them somehow getting their song corrupted and then getting influenced by it was just a big coincidence, they just naturally had their own notes turn yellow and sour and forced them to sing with it instead of their own songs? No, that's the crackpot theory. Have you completely forgotten both the Noveria conversion and the Illium conversation if you let the Rachni go?

[congokong]

So the claim that their own voices were hushed by a sour yellow sound note that forced them to sing to that sour yellow tune instead of their own was... Natural? That them somehow getting their song corrupted and then getting influenced by it was just a big coincidence, they just naturally had their own notes turn yellow and sour and forced them to sing with it instead of their own songs? No, that's the crackpot theory. Have you completely forgotten both the Noveria conversion and the Illium conversation if you let the Rachni go?

That is assuming you can even trust the rachni queen or the brainwashed asari, or that even they could understand it when they were not there. It is not like the queen would say, "Yeah, we killed everyone without mercy, but I promise not to. Will you let me go?" And again, you are arguing based on your own knowledge, not Bryson's.

[congokong]

Hackett wants insight on the Reapers.

Is willing to allow researchers pursue any lead.

One attempts to make connections to find such a lead.

As we see, he misses some details, but inevitably touches the edge of the existence of the Leviathan.

Gets an orb, and Leviathan tries to dominate his assistant to kill him, but only once Commander Shepard arrives, so this is a move of desperation whereas otherwise it is likely that this is one of maybe many times of the millennia where the Leviathan got civilizations to 'wave away' any trace of their existence.



Bryson started his search by learning of the Batarians finding a Reaper before the invasion. The Leviathan of Dis may (now) be theorized to be a legendary title that leaked out, coming from information of what the Batarians may have learned had killed it, but it seems it indoctrinated those researching it and lead them to sabotage Hegemony defenses making the Reaper invasion easier and faster than otherwise.

It isn't so much a matter of "A Reaper can be killed? Big deal!" but more "Could there be a single entity that can kill a Reaper by itself? Could it be useful? Could be side with us? Should we even pursue it, even with our survival of the Reapers at stake?"

It isn't like a huge portion of Alliance resources are going to this Task Force. It is select individuals with particular talents that are better off on this thing than, say, on the Crucible or whatever.


But the information didn't come out of nowhere. It started with information about a Reaper that had data about it indicating that it was killed('') by a single entity. The investigation would have ended there, but Bryson then combined his supposed 'crackpot theory' about the rachni (showing that he was doing research on the Reapers and rumors of Leviathan as early as around ME2, likely on Hackett's orders) with it and combing of evidence elsewhere, to find *possible* locations that a 'Leviathan' *may* be.

It WAS a shot in the dark and it WAS a conspiracy theory tier speculation, as you were getting at - but it was a shot that hit and the theorizing was well supported. Here's what they learned about Leviathan before Bryson was shot:
-The Batarians retrieved the Leviathan of Dis, the Reaper, decades ago.
-Speculation that IF it was a creature or creatures, rather than synthetics or anything else, then based on knowledge about organic creatures, it may have a similar nature and needs as the rachni.
-There were scattered mythologies about the Leviathans. This one is big. It has their shapes and clues to their natures. These were not entirely scrubbed clean by their followers, though they did such a good job that it required a great effort to match very few archaeological sites in order to get any match.
-Since it looked like they were floating, ship-sized creatures, it is guessed that they may not be able to just self-propel, but they need eezo in order to be possibly spacefaring.



Again, yes, I'd agree that this is craziness - but with the Reapers being discovered and Shepard buying the galaxy some time, Hackett is willing to entertain any craziness.
Again, yes, the logic does not back up the search - but it followed the eccentric pattern of Bryson enough that as long as he was given resources, he'd go with it. He was likely getting at least just enough evidence to report to Hackett and continue his work, and only within the context of dealing with a worried Hackett that had just faced the power of just one Reaper. The game had changed since 2183, and 2184-2185 (and surrounding months) were all about scattered attempts to find whatever possible to counter the Reapers - not enough time and too scattered of efforts, but attempts nonetheless, that finally, in the case of Task Force Aurora (who knows what else is out there?) bore enough fruit in 2186 (artifacts) to have Hackett order Shepard to assist in pushing forward to any major breakthroughs, as soon as possible.

Its pretty clear that in 2183-2184 they had almost nothing to go on but a job to do, and in 2184-2185 they had very little to go on. It is only in 2185-2186(87?) that bigger breakthroughs began to occur. Just in time for the war, though now also impeded by Reaper forces (again, cue calling in Shepard).

I do not see it making sense at all. If someone finds an ancient reaper and postulates that it was killed by some apex predator rather than an obvious resistance from that cycle, thinks it is still alive, and begins searching for it, I would think they are a loony. Cave paintings of apparent reapers and a few orbs, without meta gaming, should have no apparent connection. And the rachni idea.... Again, crackpot theory. Bryson was seeing "leviathan" in things he has no reason to suspect it, and for the plot, he was miraculously right. And the Alliance may be desperate, but they should not have spare resources to waste chasing these wild theories. Lastly, even if it WAS all connected, trusting this thing which was obviously in hiding rather than fighting to be trustworthy or capable is another huge shot in the dark.

[SwobyJ]

Dr Bryson's research was based on the Leviathan of Dis which was taken by the Batarian hegemony and he thought it was a rogue reaper that did it. He didn't know that it was an ancient species that created the reapers. A reaper could live for million of years, and even if it was dead, studying it could still be useful in the war. 

 

Right, I didn't include the theory (really; this is one theory they had among probably many they postulated) that they were dealing with a Reaper attacking another Reaper.

 

Its hard to say if Leviathan was involved with the Rachni. What I'm a little surprised about is that Levaiathan didn't take control of someone to use as a spokeperson to warn everyone about the reapers.

 

For me, the one thing that doesn't make sense in the dlc, is that Shepard never asked about the catalyst. He/she asks about the crucible. Why wouldn't Shepard ask about the catalsyt?

 

For all we know, they did. There's many unknown cycles before this one. We are dealing with the result of long process. We don't even know if the Cycles even began with the Citadel stuff.

 

IMO anything Shepard misses in his conversation with Leviathan, can be (weak writing or not) handwaved by him being mind****ed and barely hanging on and just trying to get what he can and convincing Leviathan before he dies.

[SwobyJ]

I do not see it making sense at all. If someone finds an ancient reaper and postulates that it is some apex predator, thinks it is still alive, and begins searching for it, I would think they are a loony. Cave paintings of apparent reapers and a few orbs, without meta gaming, should have no apparent connection. And the rachni idea.... Again, crackpot theory. Bryson was seeing "leviathan" in things he has no reason to suspect it, and for the plot, he was miraculously right. And the Alliance may be desperate, but they should not have spare resources to waste chasing these wild theories. Lastly, even if it WAS all connected, trusting this thing which was obviously in hiding rather than fighting to be trustworthy or capable is another huge shot in the dark.

 

I completely agree with at least one point - the Alliance should pursue anything they can, if Hackett truly recognizes a galactic extinction event to be imminent. And he does. So he goes for it. On cases more than just Task Force Aurora.

 

Yes he would normally be considered loony. The heavy implication is that he's an eccentric that convinces just enough people in just enough ways to secure funding. Notice he's living everything in his apartment instead of given a truly resource-filled facility. He's scraping by, in my opinion - at least for an Alliance supported task force being allowed on the Citadel. With the war happening, he's probably scraping even more. With the recent findings, Hackett jumps to get Shepard on the case on anything bigger that has to do with 'fighting the Reapers' (and uniting the galaxy to do so). 

[congokong]

I completely agree with at least one point - the Alliance should pursue anything they can, if Hackett truly recognizes a galactic extinction event to be imminent. And he does. So he goes for it. On cases more than just Task Force Aurora.
 
Yes he would normally be considered loony. The heavy implication is that he's an eccentric that convinces just enough people in just enough ways to secure funding. Notice he's living everything in his apartment instead of given a truly resource-filled facility. He's scraping by, in my opinion - at least for an Alliance supported task force being allowed on the Citadel. With the war happening, he's probably scraping even more. With the recent findings, Hackett jumps to get Shepard on the case on anything bigger that has to do with 'fighting the Reapers' (and uniting the galaxy to do so).

I agree, but practically, the Alliance cannot pursue every weak notion thrown their way. Logically, the quest should have ended when Bryson said, "I am intrigued by the larger implication." Hackett should have dismissed the dead reaper as killed during the fighting of that cycle. The end. But for some reason, he buys right into the idea of some apex predator, despite almost nothing to back it at that time.

[SwobyJ]

I agree, but practically, the Alliance cannot pursue every weak notion thrown their way. Logically, the quest should have ended when Bryson said, "I am intrigued by the larger implication." Hackett should have dismissed the dead reaper as killed during the fighting of that cycle. The end. But for some reason, he buys right into the idea of some apex predator, despite almost nothing to back it at that time.

 

I think you're putting too much stock into Hackett's 'belief'/'buying into'.

[congokong]

I think you're putting too much stock into Hackett's 'belief'/'buying into'.

?

He goes right along with it by saying, "What could have killed a reaper in the first place?" and supported the pursuit of the idea.

[andy6915]

That is assuming you can even trust the rachni queen or the brainwashed asari, or that even they could understand it when they were not there. It is not like the queen would say, "Yeah, we killed everyone without mercy, but I promise not to. Will you let me go?" And again, you are arguing based on your own knowledge, not Bryson's.

 

Oh, we can't trust it? I suppose that's why they saved an Asari instead of killing her and promised Shepard that they would join in the war against the Reapers when the day comes, and then later work on the Crucible for free and expected nothing in return. Right, they're all just murderous bugs that kill other species on sight and we're planning to betray the Crucible team all along but just waited too long and never got around to it. That makes much more sense than concluding they're actually peaceful based on all the evidence. Also, Javik says that the Rachni needed to be bred to be warlike and aggressive. What does that tell you about how dangerous they are, if they needed a genetic breeding program to make them that way? Then they killed all the warlike ones when they got uppity, basically undoing their mistake. But no, keep on assuming the Rachni were evil and violent all along despite all the evidence to the contrary. That's clearly what you're going to keep doing.

[SwobyJ]

?

He goes right along with it by saying, "What could have killed a reaper in the first place?" and supported the pursuit of the idea.

 

Yeah. I already explained why. There's a lot of context you seem to be possibly willfully missing.

[congokong]

Yeah. I already explained why. There's a lot of context you seem to be possibly willfully missing.

I am thinking the same of you.

Oh, we can't trust it? I suppose that's why they saved an Asari instead of killing her and promised Shepard that they would join in the war against the Reapers when the day comes, and then later work on the Crucible for free and expected nothing in return. Right, they're all just murderous bugs that kill other species on sight and we're planning to betray the Crucible team all along but just waited too long and never got around to it. That makes much more sense than concluding they're actually peaceful based on all the evidence. Also, Javik says that the Rachni needed to be bred to be warlike and aggressive. What does that tell you about how dangerous they are, if they needed a genetic breeding program to make them that way? Then they killed all the warlike ones when they got uppity, basically undoing their mistake. But no, keep on assuming the Rachni were evil and violent all along despite all the evidence to the contrary. That's clearly what you're going to keep doing.

I never said the rachni were not brainwashed. I said it is a possibility. I also said Bryson had no reason to assume the, at the time, almost fantasizes leviathan had anything to do with the rachni wars. You seem incapable of separating your meta gaming knowledge from what Bryson would know.

[andy6915]

I never said the rachni were not brainwashed. I said it is a possibility. I also said Bryson had no reason to assume the, at the time, almost fantasizes leviathan had anything to do with the rachni wars. You seem incapable of separating your meta gaming knowledge from what Bryson would know.

 

I'm not even talking about Bryson, this is my own speculation with some bits of Leviathan dialogue as evidence. Her dialogue, admittedly, but still. She is right, the timing doesn't match up. The Reapers always start at 50,000 years into a cycle, which the Rachni wars were a bit early for. Not to mention I don't even see why they would be used by the Reapers, unless they were Sovereign's attempt to do what he'd later try to do with the Geth (board the Citadel and activate the dark space relay). But that wouldn't make sense either since he'd likely have fought alongside them instead of letting Krogan stomp them into paste.

[congokong]

I'm not even talking about Bryson, this is my own speculation with some bits of Leviathan dialogue as evidence. Her dialogue, admittedly, but still. She is right, the timing doesn't match up. The Reapers always start at 50,000 years into a cycle, which the Rachni wars were a bit early for. Not to mention I don't even see why they would be used by the Reapers, unless they were Sovereign's attempt to do what he'd later try to do with the Geth (board the Citadel and activate the dark space relay). But that wouldn't make sense either since he'd likely have fought alongside them instead of letting Krogan stomp them into paste.

You're preaching to the choir. I never argued the reapers were behind the rachni wars. When the poster rossler made the accusation on this thread, I actually corrected them on the subject.

 

For the record, because of metagaming events and Bioware's writing with the rachni queen, I happen to agree that the rachni were probably brainwashed. ...I also usually kill the queen though because my role-played Shepard has no reason to trust the queen or assume she'd be any different than any other rachni ever encountered.

 

I'm saying that Bryson is seeing leviathan connections in places that were unsubstantiated by evidence. All his shots in the dark happened to be right, but the premise behind making them in the first place is where my argument (and the OP) lies. This, and Hackett's gullibility on the subject, comes across as very poor writing to me.

[andy6915]

You're preaching to the choir. I never argued the reapers were behind the rachni wars. When the poster rossler made the accusation on this thread, I actually corrected them on the subject.

 

For the record, because of metagaming events and Bioware's writing with the rachni queen, I happen to agree that the rachni were probably brainwashed. ...I also usually kill the queen though because my role-played Shepard has no reason to trust the queen or assume she'd be any different than any other rachni ever encountered.

 

I'm saying that Bryson is seeing leviathan connections in places that were unsubstantiated by evidence. All his shots in the dark happened to be right, but the premise behind making them in the first place is where my argument (and the OP) lies. This, and Hackett's gullibility on the subject, comes across as very poor writing to me.

 

Of course some were shots in the dark, remember the galaxy map mini game? Only a few things actually showed any connection to the Leviathan's movements, but things like the blackout crimes showed no viable results. I forget if the Rachni did or not... Though even if not, I'd still stick my speculation in that case. It has to be the Reapers or the Leviathans that were behind the Rachni wars, and the Reapers being it makes less sense than the Leviathans being behind it.