14 replies to this topic

[Naeryna]

 What is good about Half-elfs? It is like having human with one feat and minor bonuses? What is half-elf good at? I ask for NWN2, but if you can answer this question for both NWN2, NWN1 and IWD2 ( and IWD1 and BG1 and BG2) I would be greatful.

[Tchos]

I don't think they have any particular advantages over pure elf or pure human, really.  I would consider it purely a roleplay option, not something for gameplay purposes.  That's for NWN2, though.  For BG1 and 2 and IWD1, using 2nd edition, there are some mechanical differences, but I'm fuzzy on those.

[rjshae]

To me, half-elves are useful for taking multi-class combinations without an XP penalty or a level adjustment, while still getting the low-light vision of an elf. I often select one for my own character. Half-drow are especially cool because of their darkvision, but I don't think many modules account for the negative aspects of their background well.

[Arkalezth]

Roleplaying aside:

NWN2: They're indeed underwhelming and human is generally a stronger race. The bonus to bluff might be useful on certain Feint-focused builds, and they have low-light/dark vision if you care about that. The sleep immunity is hardly even worth mentioning. It'd be nice if they had Keen Senses like pure elves, but they don't.

NWN1: About the same, but there's no Feint in NWN1 and half-elves don't get the diplomacy/bluff bonus, so... yeah, they suck.

IWD2: I haven't played it for long and I don't remember much, but it's 3rd Edition, so likely the same.

IWD 1, BG 1&2: These games are 2nd Edition, so many things are different. Half-elves are similar to humans, but they can multiclass (as opposed to dual class... going into detail about this would require a whole new thread). It's the race with most available multiclasses, and a few of them are restricted to half-elves. They also get a bonus to pickpocket and a couple of resistances, so they make (slightly) better bards than humans, as bards can't dual class anyway.

[GCoyote]

I play a lot of Rangers (i.e. no social skills) so a half-elf build is one way tweak the build for a little more role play value. Otherwise, my opinion is pretty much the same as rjshae's above. 

 

Also a slightly weaker PC can make a module more challenging sometimes which can be good for replays.

[kamal_]

Iirc in BG half elves had a lot of multiclass options other non humans did not because they could take any class except the human exclusive paladin and monk, while other races tended to not be able to take all the classes iirc, and half elves even had triple-multiclass options when most races could only have two classes in their multiclass, so half elves could be cleric-fighter-magic users or fighter-magic user-thief, while I don't think any other race could.

In nwn they dont really have much mechanical advatanges over other races, so I think of them more as a rp choice. They get the low light vision, but that's barely a benefit because most players have something that glows like a magic item at low levels, or even nothing but the party mage has light memorized for one of their cantrips, and dungeons ingame tend to be lit somehow, with dark dungeons not really offering a penalty to being unable to see in them. You could probably argue that a human fighting in darkness should have the blind penalty, but the game doesn't really check ambient light levels. Humans get the extra feat and their extra skill point per level gives them an entire skill more than the half-elf of the same stats.

[BoardGuest808888l]

Generally, no race has meaningful advantage over human. Human is the most overpowered race, especially in NWN & NWN 2. Elf and half-elf usually have disadvantage against everybody else. Thus trying to find what they're good for aside from RP is somewhat difficult.

In NWN 2, half elves are useful to unlock race specific quests or prestige class. They also have advantage at low level modules in case you need to max Diplomacy/Bluff asap.

In NWN, half elves are useful in case you want to enter elf specific prestige class (arcane archer) without experiencing HP loss due to low CON.

In IWD 2, half elves are surprisingly useful due to their having no favored class and the prevalence Sleep-inducing spells. There are a lot of spells in Sleep category which can easily dispatch non-elves.

In IWD and BG, half elves have multi-class option which might or might not be useful, depending on how you play them. Multi-class tend to be at disadvantage compared to human's dual-class, but there might be some cases you'll want them.

In BG 2, especially ToB, multi-class tend to go out of hand when you counted all the HLA you can get at high level. Half elves have access to Ranger/Cleric multi-class, which is one of the most powerful class available.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

In NWN, half-elves are actually at a disadvantage, gameplay-wise.

Humans get bonus feats. Half-elves don't get those.

Elves get +2 bonuses to vision and hearing skills. Half-elves get +1.

[Arkalezth]

Oh, another half-elf advantage in NWN 1&2 that I forgot to mention: It's the only race that can avoid an XP penalty on many bard-based arcane archers.

[Thorsson64]

Generally, no race has meaningful advantage over human. Human is the most overpowered race, especially in NWN & NWN 2. Elf and half-elf usually have disadvantage against everybody else. 

 

Half-Elves are just like Ark said, pretty much weak under D&D 3ed, but other Races are stronger than Human. It's why some have ECL of >0. Otherwise it's simply a matter of what you want to play. Certainly, if you want to play an Archer, you're much better off as an Elf than a Human, for Instance. Stronghearts are much better sneakers, anything requiring EDM is better with a Race with +2 to Cha, etc. etc. There are actually very few options where Human is the best Race.

[BoardGuest808888l]

I'm not sure. Races with ECL + obviously have disadvantage as they gain levels slower, unless the module allows you to grind level to the max quickly.

Other races also tend to overspecialize when it's rather clear that DnD 3 & 3.5 were tailor made for multi-classed characters. That means humans can still squeeze their bonuses for various situation while others can't. Not to mention others also have some penalty to 'balance' whatever meager advantages they have. Halflings and dwarves are nearly comparable to humans in advantage. For others, unless they are a single-classed primary spellcaster, they won't fare better than human in any situation.

And in-game, others are also given advantage which aren't really one to begin with. For example Low Light Vision, like Kamal_'s said, this is for all purpose irrelevant. And Immunity to Sleep ? Well, when is the last time you see someone actually cast Sleep anyway ? Not to mention this spell has been nerfed so badly in 3.5.

[Thorsson64]

You miss Keen Senses for Elves, which can be very useful, depending on the situation. There are uses to low light vision, e.g. for sneak attackers and outside the official campaigns it is useful indeed. For those campaigns anything is fine, so nothing is particularly relevant.

 

Of course ECL means you need more XP to level, but that is not relevant to your assertions that:

 

1. No Race has a meaningful advantage over Human

2. Humans are (the most) overpowered

 

My point is firstly that most Races have some meaningful advantages over Humans; they also have some disbenefits of course, but the trick is know when one outweighs the other. The second point is that far from being overpowered, Humans are weak compared to say, Drow or Yuan Ti. Of course these Races are ECL2, but you talked solely about power.

 

If you said other races are more powerful, but have drawbacks, then that would have been correct.

[BoardGuest808888l]

But you can see that human has power without drawback. While other races, have advantage and power but with drawbacks. Doesn't that make human far more powerful than others ?

When comparing other races with human, there are 2 things which concerns me;
1. Is other race's advantage/power really an advantage or meaningful ? From that example, we can see that advantage is highly situational. Unless the campaign is made for that specific advantage, it isn't going to shine. So it is somewhat limited.

2. Is the drawback really worth it ? I'm not sure, but it seems the drawbacks given to other races penalize them too much. Let's see drow. Is ECL+2 really compensating their advantage ? Just as drow has stat bonuses & SR & other fluffs compared to human, human too learn faster and gain more skills per level than drow. Of course, drow is definitely more powerful than human of the same level. Thing is, that doesn't happen. What we got is human with + 2 'bonus' level compared to drow. And + 2 levels can means lot of thing.

[Thorsson64]

The drawback to humans is that they don't get any of the stuff that other races get - no boosts to stats, no SR, no free Feats, no bonuses to skills, no resistances. That's not "without drawbacks" when doing a comparison.

 

1. Whichever campaign you have to make a choice of what type of character you want to play. Only at that point can you consider the benefits/disbenefits of a particular Race. The fact that Humans can play anything is meaningless if what you want to play is a Rogue.

 

2. Actually it's not two levels. The way the game works (unless altered, which it is on some PWs) is that the Drow will pick up more XP because they're at a lower level. Someone calculated it out once and it's more like 1 level by the time an ECL0 would get to 30. Given that an Epic Feat is required to get +1 in a Stat, then Drow with a net +4 could be viewed as getting a good deal...

[Ghost Gal]

I don't think humans are that special, personally. All they get is any favored class (which doesn't really matter if the class you want to play is the same favored class as your chosen race, and/or you don't intend to multi-class), one extra feat at the first level, and a few extra skill points at the first level. Whoop-dee-flipping-doo.

 

I like the extra racial bonses of most non-humans, personally. Especially elves. +2 dexterity (plus others depending on sub-race), +2 against enchantments, immunity to sleep, low-light vision (I tried to play once as a race without low-light vision and instantly missed it), weapon proficiency with every kind of longsword, rapier, longbow and shortbow (meaning you can use these weapons even for classes that can't use them), +2 listen, +2 search, +2 spot, and instant search check for traps as soon as you enter a threshold, and Favored class as a ranger for wood elves, sorcerer for wild elves (bizarrely), and wizard for all others. That's not even getting into the extra stats and spells of drow.

 

Either way, Half-elves don't get the same bonses as their human and elven parents. They get any favored class, but not the extra feats or skills of their human parent. They have the +2 against enchantments, immunity to sleep, low-light vision, and +1 to spot, listen, and search, but nothing else from their elven parent. (Especially not the nifty weapon proficiency of elves.) They also have +2 bluff and +2 diplomacy, presumably because they have to learn to be charismatic from the stigma against half-elves, but that's it.

 

You'd kind of be better off playing a full human or full elf to get the full gameplay benefits of each race, since half-elves are a "jack of both races, best of neither."