37 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Greetings.

 

Am I the only one who thinks that the title Herald of Andraste is completely ridiculous ? Yes, the game allows the protagonist to dismiss the claim that they are the Herald of Andraste but I am going to make the case that this title does not make any sense based on what Andrastians know.

 

The Chantry teaches that once a person dies, their soul pass through the Fade to be with the Maker. They also teach that the Fade is home to spirits and demons.

 

My question is this:- How on earth can the members of the Andrastian Chantry, people who know full well that their religion teaches them that once someone dies, their soul pass through the Fade to be with the Maker, imply that Andraste is somehow still lingering in the Fade all these years ? Because the claim of the Herald of Andraste does imply that either Andraste is stuck in the Fade or that Andraste's soul somehow has the power to traverse the Fade and Maker's side at her will and there is nothing in the Chant of Light to suggest that either one of those two things can be true.

 

Based on Chantry lore, isn't it more sensible to say that the woman that the people at Have saw behind the protagonist at the start of the game (Yes we know she is the previous Divine but at the beginning of the game, we did not) could have been some form of Fade spirit or a demon or perhaps someone else who survived the explosion, just like the protagonist did, but they did not get out of the Fade somehow ? The surprising part is how devout Andrastians like Cassandra, Leliana, Cullen, Josephine, Giselle, etc...People who should know the lore of their own religion, make such a preposterous superstition. I suppose that's the corrupting power of faith, it makes people believe in the most ridiculous things without evidence.

 

I honestly wished someone like the Trevelyan protagonist could have pointed out this glaring discrepancy between established Chantry lore and what the people in game were saying at the time, given that they were from a pious family (they would know their religion's lore) and they could have studied at a Circle of Magi (Circles of Magi provides the best education in Southern Thedas next to the University of Orlais). It would not have been that hard to include this as a dialogue option.

 

What do you think ?

 

Have a nice day and cheers.

[Ghost Gal]

I don't really care what Chantry lore says. To me, the ridiculousness of the whole situation can be summed up as: "A mysterious woman was seen in the rift behind you? It MUST have been Andraste!"

 

Half the game later:

 

Herald: "That wasn't Andraste. It was Divine Justinia."

Everyone else: "It doesn't matter, we still think you're the Herald of Andraste."

Herald: "You guys are idiots. Good bye."

[Reznore57]

Andraste appeared to people after her death in the fade , at least that's the rumor.

She is supposed to have been seen by some magisters , and the guy who took her ashes to Haven , and also Maferath .

Haven is also the place where her ashes were , her final resting place.

So it's not such a stretch for the faithful to think it was Andraste , sure there's a really heavy dose of wishful thinking going on but it makes more sense than seeing Elvis IRL.

 

And there's also some apocalyptic chapter in the Chant when Andraste (and the Maker )come back so again people believing the Breach was the end of the world might be thinking it makes sense to see Andraste at the time.

Of course none of that is really explored and we're left with Andraste who was the Divine who was a confused spirit.

The main question left is where do spirits come from and where do souls go when they die?

And not was it Andraste....too bad.

[Zero]

Is even more funny how later they want to either manipulate or outright depower the so-called Herald of Andraste, even if you lied and say that Andraste was the one who rescued you. The Exalted Council is really nonsensical. 

 

"You're the Herald of Andraste, but we have command over you, because reasons."

[Illegitimus]

Greetings.

 

Am I the only one who thinks that the title Herald of Andraste is completely ridiculous ? Yes, the game allows the protagonist to dismiss the claim that they are the Herald of Andraste but I am going to make the case that this title does not make any sense based on what Andrastians know.

 

The Chantry teaches that once a person dies, their soul pass through the Fade to be with the Maker. They also teach that the Fade is home to spirits and demons.

 

My question is this:- How on earth can the members of the Andrastian Chantry, people who know full well that their religion teaches them that once someone dies, their soul pass through the Fade to be with the Maker, imply that Andraste is somehow still lingering in the Fade all these years ? Because the claim of the Herald of Andraste does imply that either Andraste is stuck in the Fade or that Andraste's soul somehow has the power to traverse the Fade and Maker's side at her will and there is nothing in the Chant of Light to suggest that either one of those two things can be true.

 

 

What they are thinking is maybe, just maybe, in this incredibly dire apocalyptic situation with all of creation unravelling, the Maker might bestir its lazy ass enough to offer just the slightest bit of help.  There is nothing in their theology that says the Maker can't intervene by sending Andraste back into the fade.  In fact there appears to be a widespread sentiment, expressed even by some priests such as the one in Kirkwall, that the Maker sometimes gives events a deniable nudge, that he isn't a total spectator to events.  In a real religion, there would actually be theological disputes with adherents of both points of view fiercely wrangling over whether the Maker is entirely useless, or just nearly useless.  And the people who saddle the Prisoner with the Herald title are not theologians.  They're kindred spirits to Ser Perth's knights in Origins who kept nagging the local priest to give them "blessed" amulets.   And Leliana and Cassandra aren't going to dispute it with them when they don't know for a fact that the glowing woman wasn't a miraculously, if briefly returned Andraste, and when they desperately need to gather support for their baby Inquisition.  I mean they don't even know what the deal is with the Ashes.  

 

Yeah, there's a reason why the only thing the Chantry can agree on is that that the Inquisition is a heretical group.  It is just that.  But the fact is, they have a religion in need of a hasty rewrite into something more conducive to surviving the next year.  Being heretics is the way to go to save the world.   There's a reason why the next Divine will in fact be a member of the heresy, for when heresy prospers none dare call it such.  That is what in fact gives the new Divine the power to mess with Chantry rules that have been around for something like a thousand years.  

[VivainaDX]

The Herald of Andraste thing was all just a PR snowjob, sure there was hope on the side of the most faithful of the inner circle, but their main reason for pushing the idea, was for the Inquisition to gain followers. Half the time I don't even think they actually believed it, they just needed a good angle the public would trust. They knew they'd be getting flack from the Chantry, so why not use the Chantry's own symbol against them. I can almost picture Leliana, Cassandra and Josephine coming up with the title.

[BansheeOwnage]

Greetings.

Based on Chantry lore, isn't it more sensible to say that the woman that the people at Have saw behind the protagonist at the start of the game (Yes we know she is the previous Divine but at the beginning of the game, we did not) could have been some form of Fade spirit or a demon or perhaps someone else who survived the explosion, just like the protagonist did, but they did not get out of the Fade somehow?

Well, I figured it was the Divine on my first run because the obnoxious headdress was a dead giveaway Either way, not Andraste.

 

 

On an unrelated note, I've always found it interesting how similar Andraste's circlet/tiara is to Flemeth's (and Meredith since it's based on Andraste's).

[thats1evildude]

The Herald walked out of the Fade and prevented the end of the world. I'd be more shocked if people DIDN'T latch on to the PC as some kind of saviour.

Also, I think the Maker can bend the rules about life and death for his bride.

[Tidus]

How did a Dalish, Hume or Qunari get into the fade if they're not mages? 

 

Are they ghost or demons like Cole?

 

Was they drawn into the fade by the conclave explosion? In short did they die and return?

[Wulfram]

I guess you get special privileges when you're banging God

[Gervaise]

As I understand their doctrine, the Chantry do teach that whilst the Maker doesn't really want to stir himself to help, Andraste is constantly pleading with him to do so.   Nothing like a nagging wife to get you to take action!    Seriously though, the Breach does tie in closely with Drakon's vision of the end of the world.   This would have been more apparent if it had occurred like it did in the first ever trailer (voiced by Morrigan) when there was definitely a rip across the sky rather than simply a hole.  In Drakon's vision, the opening of the Veil is the precursor to several events leading to Andraste's return and the Maker's reconciliation and cleansing of the world.     The whole motivation of Drakon to spread his version of the faith is allegedly based off this vision.   It drives his imperative to spread the Chant to all corners of the world, by force if necessary.  After his death he was proclaimed to be "Anointed" and his image is almost as popular as Andraste's in Orlesian Chantries and it is likely that his prophesy is pretty well known elsewhere as well, considering the whole Chant is meant to be recited regularly in worship and his vision forms part of the southern Chant.

 

So to the ordinary people, the huge explosion that killed the Divine and resulted in the opening of the Veil was a sign of the imminent end of the world.    It therefore makes sense to them that the female figure in the Fade, apparently bestowing a gift from the Maker on the person there, had to be Andraste and she did so in order that the person could prepare for her second coming.   A herald is someone who announces the arrival of someone important or conveys their message.   Hence they regard you as the Herald of Andraste who is a sign that she is soon to return to the world.   The founders of the Inquisition found it expedient not to argue with this interpretation whether they believed it personally or not since it helped them establish themselves with the common people who initially formed the backbone of their organisation in terms of manpower.   It then built on itself with every success of the Herald against the powers of evil.   Since Corypheus was definitely repudiating the existence of the Maker, he could be seen as a challenge to faith that the Maker allowed in order to test the faithful but the Herald was there to ensure that this evil did not succeed.

 

It is clear that this popular belief is heresy so far as the Chantry are concerned but given their disarray following the explosion and the fact that they seem powerless to oppose the chaos that resulted from it, the popular belief gained momentum.   Whilst it is never stated as much, I assume that the reason you have no option but to relinquish your power in Trespasser is that those in the know would be quite happy to circulate the truth and have you arrested as a heretic if you refused.    I would imagine they could even spin the loss of your arm and the anchor as the Maker's way of showing that the time had come for the Herald to relinquish their power to the Divine.

[Sah291]

I don't think the devout Andrastians in the game-- Cassandra, Leliana, Cullen, Josephine, Giselle--actually did believe that though?

Leliana had at best unorthodox views to begin with, believing the Maker to still be active in the world. Plus her faith was shaken after the Divine's death anyhow. Cassandra says she believes in some concept of Divine Providence. So the Inquisitor getting the anchor was an act of fate that was just what they needed, just at the right time, etc. They were 'chosen' in that sense, but not necessarily literally by Andraste. Giselle has some unorthodox views as well, but insinuates the common people hold on to their myths for a reason, because sometimes the literal truth is too difficult to convey or explain to them (especially to those who maybe can't read or are uneducated), and they often interpret things in their own way anyhow. Josephine believes in the political and diplomatic expediency even if it isn't true.

So what was left of the official Chantry believed the Inquisition to be a heretical organization to start with. The game glossed over this point a little too quickly in, in my opinion, and there were no real consequences...other than being threatened with execution in the very beginning. But it was portrayed as a heretical view that came from the masses, who thought the world was ending and were desperate for hope, etc.

But ultimately the people in the Inquisition followed the Inquisitor because of their actions and leadership, and that was the real reason they became a beacon for faith and hope. According to Cassandra. Not because of the mark itself.

[Aliceeverafter]

it's all just doomsday end of the world Chantry propaganda.

 

Call her the herald of the main religous figure whether she* likes it or not and you're allying yourself with a (free) publicity stunt.

 

also the actual believers find this way of explaining it brings some comfort out of the weird sh*t that they can see going on. and I guess someone surviving this fairly apocalyptic explosion unscathed (with a new spooky glowy hand) must seem like they were 'sent' or 'saved' or whatever.

 

and she* is a herald in the sense that bad things are going to happen. and good things too. but mostly bad.

 

also it would be crummy to be called the Herald of Corypheus which she* actually is, more, really.

 

(*i used she because she's a she in my game play )

[Beerfish]

People make religions, religions do not make people.

 

Over the years many religions are found to be rather pliable in their once rigid interpretations of things if there is a popular belief out there amongst the people.

 

This is especially true if a power base is suddenly in jeopardy or being questioned as is what is happening to the chantry in DAI.  It is in major disarray.

[fhs33721]

Is even more funny how later they want to either manipulate or outright depower the so-called Herald of Andraste, even if you lied and say that Andraste was the one who rescued you. The Exalted Council is really nonsensical. 

 

"You're the Herald of Andraste, but we have command over you, because reasons."

Not really that nonsensical. There were major power struggles between religious authorities like the pope and various kings Queens all troughout human history. Just because you proclaim yourself to be the Herald of Andraste and a lot of people believe you doesn't mean the Empress/Emporer of Orlais and the King/Queen of Fereldan will tolerate you sticking your flag into everything remotely interesting in their own nations.

[In Exile]

Bioware can never seem to remember their religion isn't an expy of Christianity. You see this with Leliana. In DAO her idea that the Maker was involved in the world was completely heretical. Yet somehow in DA2 the grand cleric shares her view. And in DAI this view of an interventionist maker and Andraste as Jesus is very common.

Is even more funny how later they want to either manipulate or outright depower the so-called Herald of Andraste, even if you lied and say that Andraste was the one who rescued you. The Exalted Council is really nonsensical.

"You're the Herald of Andraste, but we have command over you, because reasons."

That part makes perfect sense. People stripping away religious figures or cults of political power is par for the course. The Exalted Council was the only part of DAI touching on religion or politics that even made sense.

[dragonsteak]

Well, this whole Andraste thingy is basically religion. Of course there's no evidence as it just rely on their beliefs. 

[Zero]

Not really that nonsensical. There were major power struggles between religious authorities like the pope and various kings Queens all troughout human history. Just because you proclaim yourself to be the Herald of Andraste and a lot of people believe you doesn't mean the Empress/Emporer of Orlais and the King/Queen of Fereldan will tolerate you sticking your flag into everything remotely interesting in their own nations.

 

 

The only difference is that Popes are chosen by humans, and are just the human head of the Church. like the Divine. The Herald of Andraste was "chosen by God", and that stuff. I fail to see why the common people didn't rebelled when the Inquisition disbanded (in the case you chose that option)...

[BansheeOwnage]

The Herald walked out of the Fade and prevented the end of the world. I'd be more shocked if people DIDN'T latch on to the PC as some kind of saviour.

Also, I think the Maker can bend the rules about life and death for his bride.

Yeah, that makes sense, but they treated you as a saviour long before you came anywhere close to saving the world. And then shortly after you did (because of Trespasser), they don't like you anymore

 

Seriously though, the Breach does tie in closely with Drakon's vision of the end of the world.   This would have been more apparent if it had occurred like it did in the first ever trailer (voiced by Morrigan) when there was definitely a rip across the sky rather than simply a hole.

I really wish they stuck with that design, because it was much cooler.

 

Unfortunately, they decided to make it

 

look like every

Spoiler

other

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portal

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In recent times.

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Complete with swirling storm clouds and a beam going to the aperture

 

I don't think the devout Andrastians in the game-- Cassandra, Leliana, Cullen, Josephine, Giselle--actually did believe that though?

 

Cassandra says she believes in some concept of Divine Providence. So the Inquisitor getting the anchor was an act of fate that was just what they needed, just at the right time, etc.

I've always found that notion weak, and I wish I could have argued it with Cass. I'd have said something like: "'Exactly when we needed it?' No, we needed it before all those people were exploded." If it was providence, then the Maker prefers to act out dramatic stories at the cost of people's lives rather than simply and effectively help the people who need it. ...And that makes him a meanie

[fhs33721]

The only difference is that Popes are chosen by humans, and are just the human head of the Church. like the Divine. The Herald of Andraste was "chosen by God", and that stuff. I fail to see why the common people didn't rebelled when the Inquisition disbanded (in the case you chose that option)...

Why should the common people rebel, if the Herold of Andraste her/himself decided to disaband the Inquisition? Because this is what happens should you choose that option. They probably were like:

peasant A: "Did you hear? The Herald of Andraste declared that s/he would disaband the Inquisition."

peasant B: "Hmmm, I guess s/he knows what she's doing. After all s/he did save us all from the end of the world. Twice. The maker bless her/his soul."

 

Yeah, that makes sense, but they treated you as a saviour long before you came anywhere close to saving the world. And then shortly after you did (because of Trespasser), they don't like you anymore

They treat you as a criminal, until you stop the breach from expanding and making it rain demons from the sky. Only then do they treat you as saviour and even then not everyone. That comes after you face Corypheus and survive getting mountain dropped on you.

Also the commoners probably still like you in tresspasser. Just not the nobility, which is kind of justified, since again you plastered their countries with your flag every chance you got and then refused to remove those flags after the immediate crisis was over.

[Gervaise]

I don't recall anyone actually asking me to remove those flags and I think the local peasantry found it reassuring to know that the Inquisition were still looking out for them, particularly in Ferelden where the nobility did precisely nothing to protect them.  

 

The thing is the nobility of both countries had united against you, so if you had refused to reduce/disband you likely would never have made it out alive.   Look what happened to Andraste.   She was a very popular religious figure and that didn't stop her getting burned. 

 

Like I said above, once you had lost the anchor they had the perfect bit of propaganda to say that you no longer had the Maker's blessing.  Let's face it no one else actually saw your confrontation with the Dread Wolf, so they only had to take your word for it and in any case, who is going to believe that a false elven god had arisen after all these years and could actually do that to the Maker's chosen?  

[In Exile]

The only difference is that Popes are chosen by humans, and are just the human head of the Church. like the Divine. The Herald of Andraste was "chosen by God", and that stuff. I fail to see why the common people didn't rebelled when the Inquisition disbanded (in the case you chose that option)...

The doctrine as I understand it is that the Pope is chosen by God acting through human instruments. And it's not entirely clear the common people worship the Herald of Andraste. I agree that in theory you could try and refuse the Exalted Council and then basically attempt to wage a war as a group of separatist militant heretics, but people overstate the value of popular uprisings.

[Snowy-Ninja]

The problem I have with the "Herald of Andraste" Is that I feel like we are missing something from the overall story, maybe it was scrapped early in development but it feels like Bioware wanted to tell a "bigger" story and instead whittled it down to its most basic or I could be horribly wrong. I can't tell you what I think its missing but I always felt like there was something missing about the whole Herald thing, like it didn't quick seem to fit. 

 

As for Chantry Lore, most of the chant seems to be dedicated to what Solas did (creation of the veil) and the fallout from that along with what Cory and his cohorts did when they broke into the fade. Personally I always felt like Andraste was like Flemeth a host of Mythal (as it fits the pattern of betrayal and both women are responsible for great change both figures for justice and vengeance and what have you) and as we know Flemeth has the power to walk physically in the fade so maybe (if Andraste was Mythals host) she could also walk in the fade. It's a really slim chance but it would explain why people claimed to see Andraste in the fade and after he death either mistook Mythal floating around the in fade (another new host or Flemeth walking around in the fade) as Andraste. 

As for people just assuming it was Andraste, well I would to if were religious and in that situation. I'n conversation with Solas about Cole (when arriving at skyhold) you can ask him about spirits and why demons look the way they do and he proceeds to explain why demons look the way the do, something Cole later confirms in banter (they are twisted because the world doesn't make sense to them) so most people assume spirits / demons look like monsters and don't look humanoid. The only demon that would look similar to a human would be a desire demon and most non mage's have never even seen a demon / spirit before the breach and rifts so they only have vague ideas what to go on. So seeing the radiant glowing female form of some woman saving a mysterious person who has the power to stop rifts (and end the chaos) would easily be mistaken as Andraste. People were clinging onto a hope as Cassandra says early in the game. It's never confirmed if Cassandra / Cullen believe you are Andraste's chosen one and I think the nobles see your "status" as something to be used for political gain rather than a holy claim. Many who call you Herald / your worship are the common people, people who maybe don't know how to read and write, people who don't know the chant as well as they think they should. They accept you are a hero sent by Andraste because you are saving them and they want to believe that their "god" and their "faith" will protect them. 

 

But yeah at the end of the day I think there is something missing from the overall story and it annoys me that I can't say what I think it is. 

[Solitaira]

It's no more far fetched than what people choose to believe in real life.

 

God created man and woman with original sin, then he impregnated a woman with himself as her child so he could be born. Once alive, he killed himself as a sacrifice to himself to save all of us from the sin to which he condemned us in the first place.

 

In short, don't look for logic in the things fictional beings choose to believe.

[LobselVith8]

I don't really care what Chantry lore says. To me, the ridiculousness of the whole situation can be summed up as: "A mysterious woman was seen in the rift behind you? It MUST have been Andraste!"

 

Half the game later:

 

Herald: "That wasn't Andraste. It was Divine Justinia."

Everyone else: "It doesn't matter, we still think you're the Herald of Andraste."

Herald: "You guys are idiots. Good bye."

 

That's pretty much Lavellan's story right there. 'Andraste' this and 'Maker' that gets really tedious when Andrastians refuse to understand that you're Dalish and that you simply don't share their religious beliefs; you pretty much become Merrill in that regard.