110 réponses à ce sujet

[Illegitimus]

It's hard for me to buy that Alexius's time magic was location based because in 'In Hushed Whispers' the magic affected the entire world. 

 

 

We have no evidence to support that contention.  

[Hazegurl]

We have no evidence to support that contention.  

The Guard's Journal in "In Hushed Whispers" stated that the Inquisition was crushed ages ago and there was no one left to challenge them. And there were hardly any people left overall.  I think it's safe to assume that the breach was spreading uncontrollably. Especially since by that point rifts were appearing every day.

 

The only thing we have that suggests Cory didn't actually win was from Alexuis' journal stating that Cory wanted him to change the Conclave events.  But that doesn't mean he lost, but most likely that he still couldn't reach the black city.

[Heimdall]

Timey Whimey Wibbly Wobbly

[fhs33721]

The only thing we have that suggests Cory didn't actually win was from Alexuis' journal stating that Cory wanted him to change the Conclave events.  But that doesn't mean he lost, but most likely that he still couldn't reach the black city.

Isn't it stated by characters in the bad future that he clearly won and then the brach contunied to grow out of control? I assume he wants to go back in time because he wants to rule over more than an apocalyptic wasteland with hardly any survivors. Because said wasteland doesn't really achieve his goal of Making the Tevinter empire great again.

[Gervaise]

I get the feeling that Corypheus wasn't happy with the dark future.    Not much of a world for him to rule over any more and it would seem he still can't reach the Black City, which he seemed to feel was vital to his claim to godhood.   

 

It is interesting that when you talk to Solas in the Fade at Skyhold, he mentions how when you were lying comatose he considered simply running away and waiting for the end, so it is pretty clear he knew the natural result of the breach would be for it to gradually widen and envelope the world regardless of any time magic that Alexius used.    Unlike his own plan, which would have been more dramatic in its destruction and wipe the slate clean to restore things as he wished, Corypheus' action resulted in a slow breaking down of the Veil and gradual merging with the Fade, resulting in a long drawn out destruction of Thedas.   It is quite possible that as a result many more spirits ended up being warped into demons than might otherwise have been the case.

[Dai Grepher]

The problem with theories such as this is that is not how it is explained in game.   There is no suggestion that the Fiona we meet is not the real Fiona.

So what? There's no suggestion the Lucius we meet isn't the real Lucius, but the game drops the implication that it could have been Envy. So why can't the implication apply to Fiona?

The reason she is "confused" is that Alexius has messed with time.

Ah no, that is just the assumption. We know Alexius used time magic, but it was never explained why Fiona doesn't remember or what affects Alexius' time magic had other than to prevent the mages from allying with the Inquisition.

Why does it seem strange to Fiona if she never experienced the timeline we observed? She should have no memory or feeling about it because she never experienced the conditions that led her to seek the Herald out. I think she is referring to something else. You mention that you met someone that looked like her, she supposes it could be magic but says she feels strange. This could in fact be her remembering a faint image of the Envy demon copying her. It would leave her with no memory of it, but just enough for her to notice something strange about what she does or doesn't remember. The reason why you can remember your interaction with Envy is because you broke out of the trance and Envy lost control. With her, Envy would have succeeded.

The whole plot would be a lot simple if it had just been someone/a demon impersonating Fiona or Alexius had muddled her mind with blood magic but the writers went with "time magic" as the explanation, thus causing a whole lot of confusion and argument because of the difficulties that it presents.

No, BioWare left it unexplained, and "time magic" was the reason for Alexius arriving at Redcliffe before Fiona can ally with the Inquisition. So maybe it really is as simple as I have written. The connection between time magic and Fiona's strange feeling is only assumed. It isn't a certainty.

Time doesn't need to know anything. Alexius' spell has limited range.

But time isn't limited. If Fiona was prevented from going to Val Royeaux, then she could not have possibly met us in Val Royeaux. Yet we observe that she did.

One thing we have to remember, Alexius still needed the Herald to come to Redcliffe. So if he had stopped Fiona from going to Val Royeaux, the Herald wouldn't have been invited there. So did Alexius just so happen to time it just right to use the time magic after Fiona met with the Herald? And how did he know that doing this would cause Fiona to still exist in Val Royeaux?

The more logical explanation is that Alexius lived out a timeline in which Fiona went to Val Royeaux to meet with the Herald. The Herald then accepted the invite to Redcliffe. There, the Herald, Fiona, and Arl Teagan worked out an agreement that benefited the Inquisition, the mages, and Ferelden. The group then went back to Haven to seal the Breach. With all this knowledge in mind, Alexius used time magic to go back as far as he could, which was shortly after the Breach occurred. He could not go back further. But what he could do was prevent the timeline from unfolding as he remembered.

So he worked it out with Lucius and Envy to attack Fiona and her mages in order to frighten them into accepting Alexius' help. Lucius attacks the mages, in the confusion, Envy manages to reach Fiona and copy her with its mind trick. Days pass with in a moment, and Envy succeeds then disappears after wiping Fiona's memory of the encounter. She problem assumes she fell unconscious for a moment during the battle and had a dream in the Fade. Alexius then shows up to repel Lucius and his templars, and "save" Fiona and the mages, when in reality Lucius simply orders his templars to back down, his real goal achieved. Now the mages believed Alexius had rescued them, and Envy had Fiona's likeness. But Alexius still needed the mages to give themselves over to slavery. So he arranged to expel Arl Teagan from Redcliffe, since he was also involved in helping the mages ally with the Inquisition. This left the mages with no one to turn to except Alexius. All he had to do at that point was recharge the time amulet and wait for the Herald to come to Redcliffe. That's where Envy comes in.

Lucius takes his templars to address the Chantry and the Inquisition as planned, and Envy also goes to Val Royeaux as Fiona in order to invite the Inquisition to Redcliffe just as Fiona had planned. The difference is that this time Alexius is the one in control of Redcliffe and the rebel mages, not Teagan and Fiona.

The only issue I can think of that sort of conflicts with this is the concept that the Herald may have always been the type to ignore Fiona and go with the templars. In which case Alexius might not need time magic at all. Still, in this case Alexius may have used time magic for the sole purpose of obtaining the mages for Corypheus. Or, if I'm correct and Alexius' true goal was to go back before the Breach and he could only go back to just after it occurred, then his only option at this point would be to make the best of the current situation. Getting the mages would still be his best bet, and attempting to discourage the Herald from seeking out the templars would still be a necessity. Thus colluding with Lucius and Envy would still be required even if Alexius knows the Herald won't accept the invitation to Redcliffe.

The problem is that you're seeing time as linear cause and effect. I drop the glass, the glass breaks.

But cause and effect have no meaning in the Fade. Objects and places do not exist independently of the entity that created them. I drop the glass, the glass no longer exists.

Time flows similarly in the Fade because time is meaningless in a dream. Spirits are unable to discern past from future. A spirit might warn a mage of an impending assassination attempt that happened two months earlier.

Well, I guess one could speculate that we can see the glass break, but if you reversed the flow of time around the glass only, then we could observe the glass as whole even after we saw it break.

However, this analogy is in regards to the glass existing as whole AFTER it was broken. Meaning, time reversed for the glass, not us. The whole glass exists at a later point in time when it broke so it's as if it never broke. But Fiona's case is different. If she never went to Val Royeaux, then we never met her there, thus we never saw the glass break. But if she went to Val Royeaux so we could meet her, and then Alexius yo-yo'd her back through time somehow to an earlier point while we continued to exist in the timeline normally, then that means Fiona exists in her earlier form at a later point in time. In which case Fiona would be wondering why she doesn't remember two weeks passing her by in the blink of an eye (or however long it took her to travel to Val Royeaux).

In other words, Fiona left Redcliffe on Harvestmere 2nd and arrived in Val Royeaux on Harvestmere 12th. She then travels back to Redcliffe and arrives on the 22nd. But Alexius "time magics" her back to before she chose to leave for Val Royeaux. She forgets ever having made the trip. But now she thinks its Harvestmere 2nd. So what happens when people around her tell her that no, today is the 22nd, you're 20 days behind?

So the only alternative to this is that Fiona's timeline was altered, which in turn alters our timeline as well.

Alexius' time bubble is ONLY possible because of the Breach. It not only fuels his magic, but is collapsing reality itself, making it possible for two incongruent timelines to exist at the same time.

But then one would overwrite the other, or Fiona would know that she is behind in the times.

I think too much credit is being given to Alexius.

If he was so good at rewinding time that would allow two Fionas to exist at once, then why didn't he just rewind, have someone walk out, rewind, bla, bla, bla, and create a lot of Venatori fanatical clones (Hail Hydra!)?

I don't think their theory states there were two Fionas. Just that the one got rewound to before she left.

I don't think he was that good with it, especially seeing how unhappy and paranoid his future self was... why didn't he just rewind and not help Cory? If he could just keep rewinding until he got the perfect conditions to convince a warmongering liberator to put her people into indentured servitude... why couldn't he have helped himself? (Edit: I think Fiona was just a fool, no constant retries needed to manipulate her.)

You're right that he wasn't that good with it. And you raise a good point about his motives. But IHW is poorly written. So most of what Alexius does is nonsensical. That's part of the reason why I tried to think up a better story for him, one that doesn't deal with altering time for just Fiona.

I prefer the thought that Fiona in VR was Envy... it just seems like the simpler solution, and Fiona rubbing her head was her adding things up and getting really suspicious... which will make Alexus mind dominate her later or something so she can die like a big mook later.

Thanks, and I agree. It would also have practical application within Therinfal. Think of it. "Fiona", the leader of the rebel mages shows up and kills a bunch of templars just to antagonize them against the rebels, which also allows Lucius to curse her with righteous indignation and trick the templars into uniting behind him. Then he runs after "her", lets Envy copy him, and says his fond farewells as he goes to Caer Oswin, and Envy Lucius returns to Therinfal as if "he" slayed Fiona. This would also explain why the templars couldn't sense anything off about Lucius until soon before the Inquisition can possibly arrive.

[Dai Grepher]

This really can't be emphasized enough, particularly about the Breach. It is explained directly in the game why the time travel is so limited. In the future, Alexius tells us that he tried to go back over and over again, but without success. The limited influence and changes we see are pretty much all he can do given the short time frame of the existence of the Breach up to that point.

So then what makes you think he can reverse Fiona in time without affecting anything but her? More likely Alexius simply went back in time himself and changed the natural course of events.

What I'm unclear on is when the time magic comes into play. Was he recruited before the Breach happened, or after?

Most likely before. I get the impression that Alexius was near the Conclave when it exploded. That was how he was able to travel back in time to just after the Breach so he could go after Fiona with knowledge of what she would do in the near future. So in order to be close enough to affect Fiona's fate, he would have needed to have been in Ferelden at the time. I suspect he went back in time within himself, meaning he reversed time on himself so he could return to an earlier state in his same location. This opposed to traveling back in time and creating a time doppelganger.

The chore table mission regarding Arl Wulff also indicates that he had been working with the Venatori for a while to get the mages out of Ferelden. Fiona at Skyhold also confirms that they were infiltrated because mages were coming to them from all over Thedas, and they had no way to verify who they were. She had no idea any of them could be from Tevinter.

So I think Alexius was actually the vanguard of the operation to commandeer the mages. He had been working with Wulff to convince the mages to join Tevinter, and then the Breach happened, and Alexius discovered that the time amulet now worked thanks to the magical energy pouring from the Breach. So after more research he figured out how to reverse time around himself. By then the Inquisition had already began to make its move to seal the Breach, but with knowledge of that timeline he could go back as far as needed to prevent it. His first target was to stop the Herald before the Conclave, but that failed, and the amulet stopped at the point right after the Breach. Alexius would then make the best of the situation by going after the mages. He would also be able to create another time amulet (if the current one didn't already exist) since he had already worked out the spells required.

Was the fact of his already having worked on time magic just a happy coincidence and he was only targeted by the Venatori because of his rank and desperation? Did he just attempt to use it in Redcliffe as continued experimentation, but was finally successful because of the Breach?

Yes, the later. I think he was working with the Venatori for a while before that. I think that's the main reason why Dorian infiltrates the Venatori, to get to Alexius. In fact, I think Dorian mentions that Alexius approached him about joining the Venatori, which is how Dorian found out about them.

Alexius formerly had influence but he had all but shut himself away from the outside world in his desperation to cure Felix. This was down in the family estate in Asariel so basically he was out of circulation. Which is why I ask what brought him to the attention of Corypheus?

Probably because Alexius was seeking ways to cure Felix of the taint. One of Corypheus' spies caught wind and mentioned it to Corypheus. He met with Alexius and promised to cure the taint (truth or lie is unknown) and in exchange Alexius would serve him in obtaining the southern mages as well as dedicating his time magic to him as well. In the templar path, Corypheus probably killed Alexius for failing in his time magic attempt to undo the mistakes at the Conclave even if it did help obtain the mages, and he likely saw the obtaining of the mages as a mistake as well, since many of them chose to flee or die fighting. Meaning, Alexius hadn't convinced enough of them to fight for the Elder One. He lied to them about promises of a life in modern Tevinter when he should have been preparing them to serve Corypheus as their new god.

Alexius also may have been tasked with luring the Herald to Redcliffe in order to kill, capture, or time magic him. In the templar path he fails on this front as well.

Of course there are big inconsistencies in the timeline for Alexius in World of Thedas 2 from what Dorian recounts and the codex on him in game, and the history given for Alexius himself.

That's because the WoT books are wrong.

As for the mages, I can see why getting a few hundred mages on side might be useful but not in the context of Alexius leading them.

Alexius was sent to obtain them for Calpernia, just as Lucius and Envy were sent to corrupt the templars for Samson. Calpernia was always meant to lead the Venatori should Samson fail.

Send Calpernia to recruit the mages. If the time magic was needed for this, then use it and then leave her to it while Alexius moves on to use his time magic elsewhere. Corypheus wanted time taken back to just before he lost the orb. If we are having the time paradox explained in it only being applicable with a localised area, then Alexius staying in Redcliffe was pointless to the main aim in using his time magic since he needed to be up at the site of the Conclave for it to work.

Or he would go back to a day before and warn Corypheus.

Actually I've just realised that the time bubble doesn't really explain what was going on, since Alexius was not just trying to wind back time for Corypheus but also for Felix. If the regression only occurred in Redcliffe, then even if he returned to before the Concalve or the attack, this would only apply in Redcliffe, not anywhere else and so would be pointless in what he was trying to achieve.

Well his goal was to cure Felix, so obviously having Felix near the amulet when he used it would have done the trick if he had been able to go back to before the Breach. Or if he tried it on the Herald it would reverse him to before he was conceived. But I agree that the bubble theory is a bust.

Alexius seemed to think that if he reset time in Redcliffe then that would apply everywhere, so apparently he didn't understand how his own magic was working.

Seems like a long way to go just to say that was the real Fiona in Val Royeaux.

[Dai Grepher]

It's hard for me to buy that Alexius's time magic was location based because in 'In Hushed Whispers' the magic affected the entire world. How can it be both location based and not at the same time?

Don't know what you mean. That was the future, not the past. He didn't affect the world with time magic. He simply sent the Herald and Dorian a year into the future. The Breach spread because there was no Herald to close it.

And how can that spell remove the IQ from existence to the point where it creates a future where Cory wins?

It didn't remove him from existence. It sent him forward one year.

It would make sense to simply use the magic to go back in time to just after the explosion and kill the IQ who is already weakened and confused.

Now that is an interesting point, but my rebuttal to that would be that there was no safe time for Alexius to do that. The Inquisition soldiers were already hot on the scene when the Herald emerged from the rift. He was then taken into Inquisition custody, watched by guards, cared for by Solas, and then escorted by Cassandra and others from that point to various locations.

Theoretically, Alexius would have attacked the Herald in the Gull and the Lantern if he were capable of winning the fight. Alexius probably didn't have enough forces at the time, which is why he needed Redcliffe Castle for the trap.

Then Cory would have the anchor and therefore would accomplish his goal.

No, Cory wouldn't have the anchor in that case. The Herald would simply be dead and the anchor would be gone.

It makes no sense for the IQ to be zapped to a future where Cory wins while the IQ still has the anchor. But he just...vanishes without a trace and is considered gone for x amount of years??

One year. And it makes sense to send the Herald forward because that's a time when Corypheus' evil has taken root and he is in a powerful position to attack the Herald. Alexius himself is also stronger at that point in time. But IHW was poorly written all around.

[Hazegurl]

Don't know what you mean. That was the future, not the past. He didn't affect the world with time magic. He simply sent the Herald and Dorian a year into the future. The Breach spread because there was no Herald to close it.

 

How can the time magic only affect one small location. ie: Allow Alexius to rewind time to be at Redcliffe while not erasing the fact that Fiona traveled to VA, but then erases the fact that Fiona traveled to VA inside Redcliffe only.  Then zaps the IQ into a entire future where he doesn't exist and the world is taken over. Shouldn't that magic had simply effected Redcliffe and no where else? Meaning the IQ is only zapped to the future inside Redcliffe. Meaning that everything else outside of that place should still be in the present and instead of going through all that trouble to go back to the "past/present" it would have been better spent escaping Redcliffe.
 

It didn't remove him from existence. It sent him forward one year.

 

But according to that timeline he was gone for one year.  According to everyone he had died. But that wasn't the case, he was zapped to the future. Remember, time consistently moved forward for them in the same way. So he was gone for an entire year. Think "Back to the Future" where Marty gets zapped into the future.  He sees his future family and his future self, because while his present self was zapped to the future, it didn't just remove him from existence for x amount of years.  He still existed, grew old and had children et al. I'm not saying they had to do it like Back to the Future, but at least they made time travel make sense.  I don't get how the IQ would be gone for one full year according to that timeline.
 

Now that is an interesting point, but my rebuttal to that would be that there was no safe time for Alexius to do that. The Inquisition soldiers were already hot on the scene when the Herald emerged from the rift. He was then taken into Inquisition custody, watched by guards, cared for by Solas, and then escorted by Cassandra and others from that point to various locations.

 

There was no Inquisition at the time. Everyone was scattered and fighting multiple demons just trying to survive. A bunch of soldiers or scouts could be lost. And that was sometime after the IQ wakes up. I would imagine that the chaos would be greater just after the explosion and the large hole in the sky.  Cory and Alexius could have easily been the one to drag the confused IQ away and kidnap him.

 

One year. And it makes sense to send the Herald forward because that's a time when Corypheus' evil has taken root and he is in a powerful position to attack the Herald. Alexius himself is also stronger at that point in time. But IHW was poorly written all around.

 

I do agree it was poorly written but I consider their use of time travel to be one of the reasons.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, and how on earth does Dorian and the IQ remember everything that happened in the dark future but Leliana and the other companions don't?

[Gervaise]

It seems that people feel compelled to come up with an alternative to the time magic explanation, such as envy impersonating Fiona, simply because it is so difficult to reconcile the explanation given, time magic, to what is said to have happened.   To need such a convoluted explanation, when it is never presented as such in game, would seem to indicate a poorly thought out plot line on the part of the writers, not that we automatically should assume that the Fiona we met in Val Royeaux was not Fiona.

 

If the only way to make sense of the plot is to make up something for ourselves, then I would rather go with the blood magic interpretation.    So Alexius turns up after Fiona went to Val Royeaux and messes with her mind to convince her to indenture her mages to him, simultaneously attempting to erase her memory of any meeting with the Inquisitor that might suggest that there is an alternative.    He continues to try and make his time magic work, thus resulting in all the temporal anomalies but they are never anything more than this.   Alexius and his fellow blood mages also mess with everyone's mind in Redcliffe to think that he and his followers actually turned up in the place far sooner than they actually did.   Dorian arrives and hearing about the early arrival of Alexius which he knows is impossible, thinks that Alexius must have finally got his time magic to work.   Hence him telling you in good faith that the reason for Alexius' success with the mages is due to time magic.   It also explains Fiona's fussiness and rubbing her head.

 

Scroll forward to our encounter with Alexius in the castle.   What he actually does is propel your mind into the Fade (just as Envy does), where time does not operate in the same way so everything that follows occurs in the blink of an eye in the real world.   What now occurs is some peculiar nightmare of Alexius', may be even assisted by our future adversary the nightmare demon.  After all the nightmare demon is well aware that Corypheus intends building a demon army and may even be aware that he intends killing Celene.   However, they have also projected Dorian there too, which complicates matters since he is able to help you break free by overcoming the "reality" they have created in your head.    You don't believe in time magic so that should have effectively trapped you in your own mind in the Fade but Dorian does believe the possibility, so he is able to help you work your way back to Alexius in the Fade and use the amulet as the means of breaking the hold over your mind.  

 

Back in the real world, you have broken Alexius' hold over your mind and he admits defeat.    Justification for my theory?   When we get back to Haven Solas actually asks you if it was real or if it was really a trick of the Fade.    Cleary he knows that it would have been possible to engineer that whole scenario in your mind.  

 

I put forward this theory not because I think it is necessarily the right one but just to illustrate how it is possible to come up with a perfectly plausible alternative to the time magic explanation that doesn't have to be Fiona was impersonated by the envy demon.
 

That still doesn't take away from the fact that the in game explanation for the whole thing is that Alexius manipulated time, however difficult that is to reconcile with what seems to have occurred.

[fhs33721]

Justification for my theory?   When we get back to Haven Solas actually asks you if it was real or if it was really a trick of the Fade.    Cleary he knows that it would have been possible to engineer that whole scenario in your mind.  

But if you are a mage you can in no uncertain terms tell Solas that "Nope, wasn't the fade. I'd know what that would be like."

Plus I'm getting the feeling that Solas just doesn't want to admit how disastrous his own plan of removing the veil might turn out in this instance. I'm guessing it's some kind of: "The Veil was torn down in this bad future and it was a total apocalyptic mess with barely any survivors and nothing but demons everywhere? Are you certain this wasn't just a dream in the Fade? Really really certain? Come on please tell me it could just have been an illusion in the fade!"

Which is also why he reacts negatively when you say it wasn't. He doesn't want to accept that his great plan will most likely destroy everything.

[Gervaise]

To paraphrase Solas, I'm not saying my theory is a good theory, just a theory based off the information given in game.   Solas no doubt does have his own reasons for posing that question that in hindsight are to do with his own plan to pull down the Veil.    I'm just pointing out that it is possible to come up with alternative explanations but that is purely because the real one, time magic, seems so absurd. 

 

Luckily we were told that it was only possible because of the Breach, so with the Veil currently healed time magic is not possible, thank goodness!

[Dai Grepher]

How can the time magic only affect one small location. ie: Allow Alexius to rewind time to be at Redcliffe while not erasing the fact that Fiona traveled to VA, but then erases the fact that Fiona traveled to VA inside Redcliffe only.

You might be mixing two different theories up. One states that Alexius reversed time for himself so he could arrive at Redcliffe before Fiona could leave for Val Royeaux. A separate theory is that he used time magic on Fiona to reverse time only for her so that she never went to Val Royeaux.

But I agree that the later doesn't make sense, and the two seem to conflict. If Alexius reversed time for himself and prevented Fiona from going to Val Royeaux, then we never should have met her there.

Then zaps the IQ into a entire future where he doesn't exist and the world is taken over.

It isn't that the Herald never existed, it's that he was removed from time during the visit at Redcliffe Castle and did not reappear until a year later.

Shouldn't that magic had simply effected Redcliffe and no where else? Meaning the IQ is only zapped to the future inside Redcliffe. Meaning that everything else outside of that place should still be in the present and instead of going through all that trouble to go back to the "past/present" it would have been better spent escaping Redcliffe.

Yeah, a fair point. But opponent would probably argue that this case was different. Instead of reversing time or even speeding it up, Alexius sent them into the future.

But according to that timeline he was gone for one year.  According to everyone he had died.

They assumed he died. They didn't know he had been sent through time.

But that wasn't the case, he was zapped to the future. Remember, time consistently moved forward for them in the same way. So he was gone for an entire year. Think "Back to the Future" where Marty gets zapped into the future.  He sees his future family and his future self, because while his present self was zapped to the future, it didn't just remove him from existence for x amount of years.  He still existed, grew old and had children et al.

Yeah. I understand your point. Theoretically, sending him into the future should have dumped us out at the final battle with Corypheus where our original self had been made Inquisitor and was defeating Cory in the Valley of Sacred Ashes. But again, opponents will say that the timeline he was sent to was one in which he was removed from time. With Back to the Future, Doc had always intended on returning to the present. In IHW it wasn't a certainty.

I'm not saying they had to do it like Back to the Future, but at least they made time travel make sense.  I don't get how the IQ would be gone for one full year according to that timeline.

Well, BttF had problems of its own, but that's another discussion. At least BttF made it a more enjoyable storyline.

There was no Inquisition at the time. Everyone was scattered and fighting multiple demons just trying to survive. A bunch of soldiers or scouts could be lost. And that was sometime after the IQ wakes up. I would imagine that the chaos would be greater just after the explosion and the large hole in the sky.  Cory and Alexius could have easily been the one to drag the confused IQ away and kidnap him.

Well I guess they weren't technically the Inquisition until after the Breach was stabilized, but they were still soldiers and guards in service to the Chantry. They were there when the Herald emerged, and they took him to Haven's basement from there. He was always under heavy guard. Alexius however was said to have arrived to "help" the rebel mages two days after the Conclave. So it depends when his time magic spit him out. Even assuming he arrived just as the Herald was emerging from the rift, that still wouldn't give him enough time to get to the Herald before the Chantry soldiers do.

I do agree it was poorly written but I consider their use of time travel to be one of the reasons.

The main reason, yes.

Edit: Oh yeah, and how on earth does Dorian and the IQ remember everything that happened in the dark future but Leliana and the other companions don't?

Because only the Herald and Dorian were sent into the future. No one else was.

[Dai Grepher]

It seems that people feel compelled to come up with an alternative to the time magic explanation, such as envy impersonating Fiona, simply because it is so difficult to reconcile the explanation given, time magic, to what is said to have happened.

No, it was never stated that Fiona's strange feeling or alleged lack of memory was due to time magic. Rather, Dorian stated that Alexius stealing the mages out from under you was due to time magic. It was never stated that this explains Fiona's bewilderment or the inconsistency in her story and your meeting in Val Royeaux. In fact, that plot is dropped the second she says, "Whoever or whatever you met with, the situation has changed". From that point we no longer get to discuss the discrepancy in Val Royeaux.

So the theory that time magic is the cause for this discrepancy is nothing more than what some players inferred from what Dorian said about time magic and the hijacking of the rebel mages, but the two things were never stated as being connected by the game itself.

So any theory is worthy of debate, as the game is never clear on it.
 

To need such a convoluted explanation, when it is never presented as such in game, would seem to indicate a poorly thought out plot line on the part of the writers, not that we automatically should assume that the Fiona we met in Val Royeaux was not Fiona.

I don't advocate that we assume anything. I think we should examine the facts. The idea that time magic caused the discrepancy is no more factually based than the theory that Envy impersonated her. It's less factual in my opinion. We thought we met the real Fiona. We didn't think it was an imposter, yet in CotJ we encounter a demon capable of shapeshifting into different people it has managed to copy through mental struggle. This could easily explain Fiona's strange feeling as well as the discrepancy. It also makes sense with what "Fiona" in Val Royeaux tells us, which is to go to Redcliffe, which just so happens to be where Alexius is lying in wait for us. Envy wouldn't want the Herald going to Therinfal and disrupting the plot to corrupt the templars. We also know from Envy's dogma that Envy was present in Val Royeaux when the Herald appealed to the Chantry. We might assume at the time that Envy was impersonating Lucius at this time, but it's possible that it was viewing the scene as Fiona.
 

If the only way to make sense of the plot is to make up something for ourselves, then I would rather go with the blood magic interpretation. So Alexius turns up after Fiona went to Val Royeaux and messes with her mind to convince her to indenture her mages to him, simultaneously attempting to erase her memory of any meeting with the Inquisitor that might suggest that there is an alternative. He continues to try and make his time magic work, thus resulting in all the temporal anomalies but they are never anything more than this. Alexius and his fellow blood mages also mess with everyone's mind in Redcliffe to think that he and his followers actually turned up in the place far sooner than they actually did. Dorian arrives and hearing about the early arrival of Alexius which he knows is impossible, thinks that Alexius must have finally got his time magic to work. Hence him telling you in good faith that the reason for Alexius' success with the mages is due to time magic. It also explains Fiona's fussiness and rubbing her head.

It's fine to theorize regarding blood magic. I admit that it is possible. The problem with the time magic theory (which the game never states as the reason for Fiona's inconsistency) is that it conflicts with logic and fact. It isn't even possible. At least blood magic is possible. It's a stretch, because we have never seen blood magic work on that level before (usually it is just one person as the target and it requires much effort).
 

Scroll forward to our encounter with Alexius in the castle. What he actually does is propel your mind into the Fade (just as Envy does), where time does not operate in the same way so everything that follows occurs in the blink of an eye in the real world. What now occurs is some peculiar nightmare of Alexius', may be even assisted by our future adversary the nightmare demon. After all the nightmare demon is well aware that Corypheus intends building a demon army and may even be aware that he intends killing Celene. However, they have also projected Dorian there too, which complicates matters since he is able to help you break free by overcoming the "reality" they have created in your head. You don't believe in time magic so that should have effectively trapped you in your own mind in the Fade but Dorian does believe the possibility, so he is able to help you work your way back to Alexius in the Fade and use the amulet as the means of breaking the hold over your mind.

Or Dorian was used to resisting blood magic when his father tried it on him.

The theory is worth discussing, but if you were to put it forward in a serious manner, we would discuss it and I would raise certain objections to it, such as if Alexius could use blood magic on the Herald, why not use it to turn him into an obedient slave?

So we can debate that theory if you want. At least it's possible. Time magic altering things in those ways is not possible.
 

I put forward this theory not because I think it is necessarily the right one but just to illustrate how it is possible to come up with a perfectly plausible alternative to the time magic explanation that doesn't have to be Fiona was impersonated by the envy demon.

I acknowledge that other theories can exist and are worthy of debate. I'm just putting forth the theory I believe is most likely and correct based on various facts found in the game.
 

That still doesn't take away from the fact that the in game explanation for the whole thing is that Alexius manipulated time, however difficult that is to reconcile with what seems to have occurred.

I don't contest that he manipulated time. I'm just pointing out that if he had manipulated time to prevent Fiona from going to Val Royeaux, then we never would have met her there. In fact I believe that is exactly what happened. Fiona was prevented from going to Val Royeaux, and Envy went in her place impersonating her in order to lure the Herald to Redcliffe where Alexius was setting a trap.

See, you aren't arguing that time magic happened, you're arguing that Fiona went to Val Royeaux in spite of time magic changing her fate. That is what doesn't make sense.

[DreamerM]

The moral of the story seems to be, when you introduce even the possibility of time travel to your story, things are going to get very complicated very quickly.

For what it's worth, I can imagine that the Fiona we see in Val Royoux was the real Fiona and she hadn't yet met Alexius because he hadn't used his time magic yet. If you want to pin down exactly when he worked that spell, it was some point in between when you saw her and when you arrived in Redcliffe. Somehow, he was able to erase the timeline where she went to Val Royoux, but, somehow, the Inquisitor still remembers it happening... which means somehow the Inquistor is moving between timelines. As in, the Inquisitor's personal timeline didn't change when Fiona's did. Maybe because of the fade mark? Or maybe because ALL THIS S(TUFF) IS CRAZY.



I'm dead. Stick a fork in me. I'm done.

[Gervaise]

I had a really simple solution in game.  My Inquisitor just thought to himself "This s**t is weird" and went off to recruit the Templars instead.     He may not like the Chantry or the Templars but he had to admit they did know how to deal with strange magic (or so he had been told).   The intention was to close the Breach and then deal with the Magister but things didn't quite work out that way.   Best laid plans and all that.

[thats1evildude]

My Inquisitor just thought to himself "This s**t is weird" and went off to recruit the Templars instead. 

 

Good plan! Bioware should make allying with the templars canon and forget this time travel nonsense ever happened.

[fhs33721]

Good plan! Bioware should make allying with the templars canon and forget this time travel nonsense ever happened.

But then we'd get the "We Templars broke away from the chantry because we hate all mages and want to kill them, except when it's ancient evil Darkspawn magisters.Yeah those are cool let's join one in his quest to make Tevinter great again."-plotline. Hmm, well I guess that's still marginally better than time travel.

[thats1evildude]

Well, their allegiance to Corypheus is at least the result of the fantastic drug they were unknowingly dosed with.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Good plan! Bioware should make allying with the templars canon and forget this time travel nonsense ever happened.

Then time traveling to ancient arlathan is a mandatory main quest in da4. What then?

[thesuperdarkone2]

Well, their allegiance to Corypheus is at least the result of the fantastic drug they were unknowingly dosed with.

Samson's short story shows the first red Templars joined Cory because they hated the chantry. Lol

[DreamerM]

My Inquisitor just thought to himself "This s**t is weird" and went off to recruit the Templars instead.  

 

Not a bad plan... except it leaves a potential TIME MACHINE in the wind. A TIME MACHINE. TIME MACHINE. You lock that sh!t DOWN if you possibly can.

At least that was my attitude. Time machine.

[Hazegurl]

I had a really simple solution in game.  My Inquisitor just thought to himself "This s**t is weird" and went off to recruit the Templars instead.     He may not like the Chantry or the Templars but he had to admit they did know how to deal with strange magic (or so he had been told).   The intention was to close the Breach and then deal with the Magister but things didn't quite work out that way.   Best laid plans and all that.

lol! That sums up my IQ's thoughts exactly.  IMO, the entire "recruit the Mages" story line was was a mixture of strange, dubious, and just all around ridiculous. 

 

 

Good plan! Bioware should make allying with the templars canon and forget this time travel nonsense ever happened.

 

Personally, whoever wrote the Templar path did a very good job of making it a proper canon choice. The events are within lore, it opens new info on the antagonist, while providing a decent set up for Tevinter. The mage path is just .

[thats1evildude]

Then time traveling to ancient arlathan is a mandatory main quest in da4. What then?

 

Solas is going to open another Breach?

[nightscrawl]

The moral of the story seems to be, when you introduce even the possibility of time travel to your story, things are going to get very complicated very quickly.

For what it's worth, I can imagine that the Fiona we see in Val Royoux was the real Fiona and she hadn't yet met Alexius because he hadn't used his time magic yet. If you want to pin down exactly when he worked that spell, it was some point in between when you saw her and when you arrived in Redcliffe. Somehow, he was able to erase the timeline where she went to Val Royoux, but, somehow, the Inquisitor still remembers it happening... which means somehow the Inquistor is moving between timelines. As in, the Inquisitor's personal timeline didn't change when Fiona's did. Maybe because of the fade mark? Or maybe because ALL THIS S(TUFF) IS CRAZY.

Spoiler

I'm dead. Stick a fork in me. I'm done.

 
You get a "like" just for this gif.