110 réponses à ce sujet

[fhs33721]

Solas is going to open another Breach?

Probably. His endgame does involve destroying the veil after all.

[Aliceeverafter]

The memory of Fiona visiting at Val Royeux is in the heads of the Inquisitor and companions, even if in the new timeline it never happened. Anyone who saw her will remember, but the fact that she doesn't because she is moved back in Redcliffe, to a time before it happened is actually irrelevent.

 

Bioware was a bit clumsy with this whole scene. You can see what they wanted you to take from the scene (time travel etc) but it doesn't work very well.

 

 

My theory is and continues to be that the Fiona we met in Val Royeaux was actually the Envy demon impersonating her. The Lucius we see in Val Royeaux was the real Lucius.

This is actually the envy demon. It is stated in the game. Lucius is never in Val Royeux.

And why would the envy demon be impersonating Fiona? Are you saying that envy wants the Inquisitior to go to Redcliffe and get the Mages help? So would that suggest that the best course of action is to go to Therinfal and defeat the envy demon?

[Aliceeverafter]

Timey Whimey Wibbly Wobbly

This is it. Exactly.

[Dai Grepher]

This is actually the envy demon. It is stated in the game. Lucius is never in Val Royeux.

No, it wasn't stated in the game that the Lucius we saw in Val Royeaux was Envy. Some players merely assume that because the Lucius we saw at Therinfal was Envy.

EDIT: Daniel puts forth the theory at Caer Oswin. But it isn't a statement of fact, it was Daniel's belief of what happened.
 

And why would the envy demon be impersonating Fiona? Are you saying that envy wants the Inquisitior to go to Redcliffe and get the Mages help?

No, Envy wanted the Herald to go to Redcliffe and fall into Alexius' trap. It also wanted the Herald to stay far away from the templars, who were to be corrupted with red lyrium.
 

So would that suggest that the best course of action is to go to Therinfal and defeat the envy demon?

Of course going to Therinfal was the best option all around, which is why Envy didn't want you to go there.

Modifié par Dai Grepher, 14 juillet 2016 - 03:45 .

[thesuperdarkone2]

No, it wasn't stated in the game that the Lucius we saw in Val Royeaux was Envy. Some players merely assume that because the Lucius we saw at Therinfal was Envy.
 

Now you are just making things up. Yes, Daniel, Cassandra's apprentice, straight up says that the Lucius you met in Val Royeaux was Envy:

https://youtu.be/2058cmrZMUY?t=6m7s

 

Also, if you are claiming that the Lucius we met in Val Royeaux was real, aren't you disproving your next point about how it was Envy at Val Royeaux?

 

 

 

No, Envy wanted the Herald to go to Redcliffe and fall into Alexius' trap. It also wanted the Herald to stay far away from the templars, who were to be corrupted with red lyrium.

 

 

 

Citation Needed
.

[thats1evildude]

Envy's own journals in the Demonic Dogma questline make it clear that it was the demon in Val Royeaux.

 

Weeks of studying, learning, imitating. The Lord Seeker reveals who he is, what he is, with every sharp-tongued reaction. Lucius Corin abandoned, hidden after taking his face, his armor, his templars. Easy as slipping into new skin.

 

The Herald of Andraste protests as the templars leave the city. Small. Unimportant. Beneath a Lord Seeker's notice, but for instructions from the Elder One.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Envy's own journals in the Demonic Dogma questline make it clear that it was the demon in Val Royeaux.

Weeks of studying, learning, imitating. The Lord Seeker reveals who he is, what he is, with every sharp-tongued reaction. Lucius Corin abandoned, hidden after taking his face, his armor, his templars. Easy as slipping into new skin.

The Herald of Andraste protests as the templars leave the city. Small. Unimportant. Beneath a Lord Seeker's notice, but for instructions from the Elder One.

That 70 page thread which was literally everyone against Dai Grepher should show that accepting facts isn't really his strong suit

[SgtSteel91]

Alexius was sent to obtain them for Calpernia, just as Lucius and Envy were sent to corrupt the templars for Samson. Calpernia was always meant to lead the Venatori should Samson fail.
 

 

Off topic, I've never thought about it before, but after reading this, now I can believe in a reason for Fiona to attack you on the Templar path that doesn't involve mind control.

 

By the time the attack happens, Calpernia is leading the Venatori and the former Rebels and not Alexius. And from what we know of Calpernia, she's a former slave (like Fiona) who was recognized for her ability, freed, and given a powerful position. She uses that power to buy and slaves for the purpose of freeing them. She's working making a new Tevinter where people's worth won't go unrecognized by the powerful.

 

I can definitely see her taking the former Rebel Mages off of Alexius' hand, going "he made you 'indentured servants?' **** that, you guys are our allies now,' and generally Fiona and the former Rebel Mages to work with her, sharing common ground as former slaves working to build a new world with a 'god' that will listen to them. And after losing the War and possibly being abandoned by the Inquisition to ally with their Templar oppressors, I can believe Fiona and her followers would willingly follow Calpernia.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Off topic, I've never thought about it before, but after reading this, now I can believe in a reason for Fiona to attack you on the Templar path that doesn't involve mind control.

By the time the attack happens, Calpernia is leading the Venatori and the former Rebels and not Alexius. And from what we know of Calpernia, she's a former slave (like Fiona) who was recognized for her ability, freed, and given a powerful position. She uses that power to buy and slaves for the purpose of freeing them. She's working making a new Tevinter where people's worth won't go unrecognized by the powerful.

I can definitely see her taking the former Rebel Mages off of Alexius' hand, going "he made you 'indentured servants?' **** that, you guys are our allies now,' and generally Fiona and the former Rebel Mages to work with her, sharing common ground as former slaves working to build a new world with a 'god' that will listen to them. And after losing the War and possibly being abandoned by the Inquisition to ally with their Templar oppressors, I can believe Fiona and her followers would willingly follow Calpernia.

Then explain Dorian's banter saying the Venatori started killing any mages that didn't agree with them or the guide outright saying they are brainwashed

Also, take anything Dai Grepher says with a grain of salt since he chooses to ignore facts and uses mental gymnastics to try and justify his view

[Daerog]

They were both Envy.

Edit: Yes, odd theory, but I see it as the simpler one. I don't think it conflicts with any standing lore, but I could be wrong.

Edit2: superdarkone, like others on this site, likes to belittle others, just fyi to all.

[Dai Grepher]

Now you are just making things up. Yes, Daniel, Cassandra's apprentice, straight up says that the Lucius you met in Val Royeaux was Envy:

Well then I will retract my claim that the possibility is never stated in the game. Yes, Daniel puts forth that theory, so players could have picked that up from him rather than assume it for themselves.

When facts are posted, I recognize the facts. Perhaps I simply forgot about Daniel's statement.

However, to the broader point, Daniel's statement is not proof that Envy was masquerading as Lucius in Val Royeaux. This is merely what Daniel surmised based on the fact that Envy did impersonate Lucius eventually at Therinfal.

Daniel's own statement indicates this...

Daniel: Lucius betrayed us, Cassandra.

He sent us here, one by one. "An important mission," he said.

Lies. He was here with them all along. He's still working with them.

Inquisitor: But we met Lord Seeker Lucius in Val Royeaux. He couldn't have been here.

Daniel: That wasn't him. It was a demon, masquerading.

Cassandra: What? How could that be?

Daniel: The Lord Seeker allowed it. He let the demon take command, while he...

Cassandra: Came here.

Daniel just said that Lucius came to Caer Oswin after he let Envy take command. Well, he didn't let Envy take command until after the visit in Val Royeaux. This supports my theory that Lucius left Envy in charge of Therinfal and then went to Caer Oswin.

Daniel also states that Lucius sent the Seekers to Caer Oswin one by one. This means Daniel was isolated from all other Seekers. He did not discover anything about Lucius and Envy until after he was already ensnared by the trap. He has no frame of reference for what Lucius he spoke to at what time or place. It could have been the real Lucius who sent him to Caer Oswin, or it could have been Envy. And once he got there he could have been held for any amount of time before the real Lucius showed up.

Also, if you are claiming that the Lucius we met in Val Royeaux was real, aren't you disproving your next point about how it was Envy at Val Royeaux?

No, my stance is that it was the real Lucius in Val Royeaux who dealt with the Herald and called the templars to follow him to Therinfal. He wouldn't leave something that important up to Envy. Rather Envy was masquerading as Fiona, and only had to issue a simple offer to the Herald to meet with the mages at Redcliffe.

Citation Needed

1. Envy Fiona encouraged the Herald to visit Redcliffe and discuss an arrangement with the mages. Thus Envy Fiona wanted the Herald to go to Redcliffe where Alexius was already in control.

2. Envy Fiona discouraged the Herald from seeking out the templars by trying to cast aspersions on Lucius, saying he likely had a hand in Justinia's death. This gives the implication that Lucius will never cooperate with the Herald because he is guilty of murdering the Divine.

Envy's own journals in the Demonic Dogma questline make it clear that it was the demon in Val Royeaux.

Yes, Envy was in Val Royeaux as I have always stated, but Envy's Dogma indicates that Envy was there observing Lucius, not masquerading as him. From your post...

Weeks of studying, learning, imitating. The Lord Seeker reveals who he is, what he is, with every sharp-tongued reaction. Lucius Corin abandoned, hidden after taking his face, his armor, his templars. Easy as slipping into new skin.

After taking his templars. Lucius still had not gathered the templars of Val Royeaux until after the Chantry meeting where he addressed the Herald.

The Herald of Andraste protests as the templars leave the city. Small. Unimportant. Beneath a Lord Seeker's notice, but for instructions from the Elder One.

Notice that Envy states the observation of the Herald protesting as the templars leave, and also refers to Lucius in third-person. This indicates that Envy observed the real Lucius conversing with the Herald and then leaving as if the Herald is beneath Lucius' notice except Corypheus commanded that the Herald be captured.

The only way to do that was with Alexius, who had promised to use time magic to recover the anchor.

This is where Envy comes in as Fiona. Envy observed the exchange between the Herald and Lucius, and then approached the Herald with the offer of an alliance at Redcliffe.

Off topic, I've never thought about it before, but after reading this, now I can believe in a reason for Fiona to attack you on the Templar path that doesn't involve mind control.
 
By the time the attack happens, Calpernia is leading the Venatori and the former Rebels and not Alexius. And from what we know of Calpernia, she's a former slave (like Fiona) who was recognized for her ability, freed, and given a powerful position. She uses that power to buy and slaves for the purpose of freeing them. She's working making a new Tevinter where people's worth won't go unrecognized by the powerful.

If it were just Calpernia, I would agree. However, I don't think Fiona would willingly work for Corypheus, a Darkspawn Magister. She also would not support her fellow mages being forced into the army under threat of death. There's also the fact that Fiona simply attacks the Herald without saying anything. To me it seemed like she was just mindlessly attacking.

I think it was blood magic, but the only alternative I find acceptable is that she agreed to fight the Herald because wanted to die. Similar to Zevran going after the Warden. She realized she condemned the mages with her foolishness and was ready to accept justice at the hands of the Herald.

[thesuperdarkone2]

And people say I'm kidding when I say Dai Grepher uses mental gymnastics to straight up ignore facts that disprove his views

[Dai Grepher]

Daniel's statement doesn't disprove my view. Daniel speculated that Lucius was at Caer Oswin the whole time, and thus Envy masqueraded as him in Val Royeaux. But Lucius would not have been in Daniel's presence the whole time. Lucius could have left Caer Oswin at any time to go to Val Royeaux, or as the facts indicate, he was at Val Royeaux first and then went to Caer Oswin after the meeting in Val Royeaux and likely after leading the templars back to Therinfal first.

[thats1evildude]

Daniel's statement doesn't disprove my view. Daniel speculated that Lucius was at Caer Oswin the whole time, and thus Envy masqueraded as him in Val Royeaux. But Lucius would not have been in Daniel's presence the whole time. Lucius could have left Caer Oswin at any time to go to Val Royeaux, or as the facts indicate, he was at Val Royeaux first and then went to Caer Oswin after the meeting in Val Royeaux and likely after leading the templars back to Therinfal first.

 

And Envy's journals, which support the fact that he was in Val Royeaux?

[thesuperdarkone2]

And Envy's journals, which support the fact that he was in Val Royeaux?

Dai Grepher thinks that envy was merely hiding as someone else and that it was the real Lucius in Val Royeaux. Lol

[Steelcan]

If it was actually Fiona, which I am inclined to believe, I want to know her thought process here.

"I will travel alone to Val Royeaux where all the templars are gathering to tell the Inquisitor to meet me again somewhere else,sending a raven or a messenger to Haven is just not enough for this"

[thats1evildude]

"I will travel alone to Val Royeaux where all the templars are gathering to tell the Inquisitor to meet me again somewhere else,sending a raven or a messenger to Haven is just not enough for this"

 

She did say she wanted to see what was happening with the templars and the Chantry, and it does help instill a degree of trust. "I'm here at personal risk to invite you to Redcliffe."

[Dai Grepher]

And Envy's journals, which support the fact that he was in Val Royeaux?

I addressed that in my above reply to you. Envy was impersonating Fiona and it observed the interaction between the real Lucius and the Herald. That is why the memory reflects a third-party perspective in referring to Lucius and the Herald. The memory indicates that the real Lucius was in Val Royeaux.

[Steelcan]

She did say she wanted to see what was happening with the templars and the Chantry, and it does help instill a degree of trust. "I'm here at personal risk to invite you to Redcliffe."

so she skipped out on the Conclave suspecting a trap, but walked into the lion's den just to give the personal touch?

Seems kinda silly. Though I'm sure it's just bad writing anf not evidence of anything

[Gervaise]

It might be worth asking how Fiona knew you were travelling to Val Royeaux when you did?    She was meant to be holed up with the other mages in Redcliffe.   So someone in the Inquisition was spying on her behalf and had a means of getting the information to her quick enough that she could arrive in Val Royeaux just after you.   I swear the security in the Inquisition was awful.    We had mage agents, Solas agents, Qunari agents (not the one we knew about) and likely Venatori agents too, plus those assassins from the House of Repose.   It is hardly surprising how Corypheus managed to sneak into the Conclave and kidnap the Divine.   Whoever was responsible for security was terrible there too.   Let me see, now who might that be?  Hmm, then again Leliana was very sympathetic to the mages cause, may be she just sent her the information.

[Dai Grepher]

Envy's Dogma suggests that Corypheus knew of the Herald's whereabouts and instructed Lucius to address the Herald in Val Royeaux. In my theory, that "Fiona" was Envy, which was working with Lucius and served Corypheus. So that's how "Fiona" knew to be there.

Again, going back to the time travel element, the real Fiona could not have been there because Alexius had already prevented her from leaving Recliffe. But even without Alexius' influence, it seems unlikely that Fiona would know to attend that Chantry gathering. It would have been a great risk to the real Fiona, but not an imposter. At the least she would have sent someone else in her place to observe and deliver the message, as Vivienne did.

[PunchFaceReporter]

First of all, Fiona is an Ogre. Secondly, Fiona is from some weird Dream Works universe.

[Hazegurl]

I addressed that in my above reply to you. Envy was impersonating Fiona and it observed the interaction between the real Lucius and the Herald. That is why the memory reflects a third-party perspective in referring to Lucius and the Herald. The memory indicates that the real Lucius was in Val Royeaux.

"The Demon appeared in Val Royeaux to officially announce that the Chantry no longer held any control over the Templars and leaves after rebuffing the offer of an alliance with the Inquisition." http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Envy_demon

 

The Envy demon is 100% involved solely on the Templar side of the story line and has absolutely nothing to do with Fiona and the mages. If you side with the mages, you can send the Bull's Chargers to investigate Therinfal Redoubt where they eventually track down the Envy demon and kill it.  This is the only time you hear anything about the Envy demon during the mage path and it is connected solely to the Templar side.

 

Fiona sided with Tevinter, not with Cory.  It's just that her master sided with Cory and she was a slave with no rights and therefore had no choice but to fight and die in their attack. She didn't need to be possessed by Envy and Envy didn't need her.

[Dai Grepher]

"The Demon appeared in Val Royeaux to officially announce that the Chantry no longer held any control over the Templars and leaves after rebuffing the offer of an alliance with the Inquisition." http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Envy_demon

That is just a wiki article that some fan wrote. That text isn't from the game.

The Envy demon is 100% involved solely on the Templar side of the story line and has absolutely nothing to do with Fiona and the mages. If you side with the mages, you can send the Bull's Chargers to investigate Therinfal Redoubt where they eventually track down the Envy demon and kill it.

You don't know that to a certainty.

This is the only time you hear anything about the Envy demon during the mage path and it is connected solely to the Templar side.

But there is plenty of evidence implying that Envy could have been impersonating Fiona in Val Royeaux. Envy's Dogma hints at the possibility that it observed Lucius at Val Royeaux, rather than acted as him.

Fiona sided with Tevinter, not with Cory.  It's just that her master sided with Cory and she was a slave with no rights and therefore had no choice but to fight and die in their attack.

There's always a choice, except with blood magic.

She didn't need to be possessed by Envy and Envy didn't need her.

I don't claim she was possessed by Envy during the attack on Haven. She was copied during the time Alexius was taking over Redcliffe. Then Envy went to Val Royeaux, impersonated Fiona, and observed Lucius calling out the Herald.

[Hazegurl]

That is just a wiki article that some fan wrote. That text isn't from the game.

 

The source of information is from the game. Envy's Journal.  Something that was posted to you earlier.

 

You don't know that to a certainty.

 

Yes I do, because I played the game.  The writers had plenty of time to make Envy a part of the Mage story line and they chose not to, accept it.

 

But there is plenty of evidence implying that Envy could have been impersonating Fiona in Val Royeaux. Envy's Dogma hints at the possibility that it observed Lucius at Val Royeaux, rather than acted as him.

 

"Lucius Corin abandoned, hidden after taking his face, his armor, his templars. Easy as slipping into new skin."

 

This is from Envy's Dogma.

 

abandoned

hidden

AFTER taking his face, his armor, his Templars.

 

So if you are correct about Envy observing rather than acting, then you also have to explain who Envy was observing that day.  Because apparently Lucius was abandoned and hidden away after apparently someone else took his face, armor, and Templars.

 

There's always a choice, except with blood magic.

 

She was a SLAVE. That's kinda how the whole slave thing works. You have no choice but to do as you're told. She didn't sign herself and her mages for battle but she did sign away their rights. Which is why she couldn't just up and leave after finding out they would be expected to fight. She had nowhere to go and burned her bridges with Fereldan's ruler.  The mages had no choice but to fight that day.

 

I don't claim she was possessed by Envy during the attack on Haven. She was copied during the time Alexius was taking over Redcliffe. Then Envy went to Val Royeaux, impersonated Fiona, and observed Lucius calling out the Herald.

 

 

Neat headcanon. But it never happened.