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[Qun00]

Anders was the one who took the very first step towards mage freedom. Fiona and Cole simply put the cherry and toppings on the cake he left in the stove.

The new Divine can improve the mages' lives, but only thanks to the fact that the Circles have no power right now.

[Gervaise]

Not exactly because on the Champions of the Just route a very large number of mages are now dead and by the epilogue in Trespasser it would seem that no matter what you did, there are still Circles, run by Vivienne, and a College of Enchanters.    The only scenario where the College is going to be stronger than the Circles is if Leliana is Divine off a Hushed Whispers play through.   However, given how little difference there is really in the endings, I'm guessing they will use this as an excuse to put everything back pretty much as before in the future.    Although, if Solas is successful in his endeavours, it is not going to make any difference anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saying Anders actions paid off is like commending Al Qaeda and 9-11 for the Islamic State. Different people realized different goals that are only vaguely related. Since Anders goals weren't a reformation, but an abolition, his standards would be that the outcome was a failure. Not only do Circles still exist, but there is still Chantry oversight (even if Leliana, for the moment, is hands off), legal differences (though now many favor the mages), and their future status is highly uncertain. Mages were neither totally freed from differences or totally eradicated, either of which were Anders' acceptable outcome as he wanted to eradicate his, not pro-mage advocates, perception of injustice.

 

In terms of causing reformation, Anders and those such as Fiona were themselves significant obstacle to such, and while the sequence of events that did happen obviously wouldn't have happened without them the events and outcomes that did occur were also neither planned or intended. As far as reforms go, we'll never know how many would have been made when they already had a sympathetic Divine, merely that the systems reforms were delayed for years before the independence rebellion failed at its own stated goals, at the costs of many innocent lives both mundane and mage whom never wanted the conflict, and contributed to an extreme risk to the entire world and all the people within.

 

And, of course, the viability and enduring virtue of said reforms for the long term is highly questionable, whether they get rolled back or lead to (yet another) mage elite class.

[vertigomez]

I'm pretty sure Leliana would be a pretty darn pro-mage Pope even without the added, um, "benefit" of Anders' actions. He blew up a church and killed a hundred civilians in order to provoke Meredith into annulling the Circle. By that logic, we should be thanking Meredith for mages having greater rights.

[thats1evildude]

Wait, I sided with the Templars, so ... what did Anders achieve again?

[Voidinist]

Yes. Whining, lying, and terrorism caused by the epitome of why the Circles are necessary sure paid off in a series of convenient events involving an ancient magister blowing up most of the Chantry traditionalists, the Ferelden monarchy granting the rebels sanctuary when no one else would, a new Inquisition siding with the rebels, and the charity of the next Divine.

[Catilina]

Saying Anders actions paid off is like commending Al Qaeda and 9-11 for the Islamic State. Different people realized different goals that are only vaguely related. Since Anders goals weren't a reformation, but an abolition, his standards would be that the outcome was a failure. Not only do Circles still exist, but there is still Chantry oversight (even if Leliana, for the moment, is hands off), legal differences (though now many favor the mages), and their future status is highly uncertain. Mages were neither totally freed from differences or totally eradicated, either of which were Anders' acceptable outcome as he wanted to eradicate his, not pro-mage advocates, perception of injustice.

 

In terms of causing reformation, Anders and those such as Fiona were themselves significant obstacle to such, and while the sequence of events that did happen obviously wouldn't have happened without them the events and outcomes that did occur were also neither planned or intended. As far as reforms go, we'll never know how many would have been made when they already had a sympathetic Divine, merely that the systems reforms were delayed for years before the independence rebellion failed at its own stated goals, at the costs of many innocent lives both mundane and mage whom never wanted the conflict, and contributed to an extreme risk to the entire world and all the people within.

 

And, of course, the viability and enduring virtue of said reforms for the long term is highly questionable, whether they get rolled back or lead to (yet another) mage elite class.

1. Bad analogy again. Really boring.

2. Anders not failed on his goal. The revolution started. Anders never said, that he will freed immediately all of the mages in the whole Thedas. He said: “Ten years, a hundred years from now...” Ergo: He knew, this will not done from one moment to the next. The system was shaken. There's a good chance, that will never be as stable as it was.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

His actions didn't pay off in my first universe. He was executed by his former friend for his despicable crimes, while the Mage Rebellion he inspired was enslaved by Tevinter cultists and defeated by the Templars he hated. The Templar Order then went on to have their good name restored under Ser Barris by heroically defeating the Venatori, demons, and the murderous mage extremists that had survived Fiona's death. After that the Circle is restored and the Chantry is reunited. The Templars and Seekers are both freed from their former leaders' corruption. Even the good things that happen to mages under Divine Cassandra happen largely in spite of him.

 

I imagine fate may end up being kinder to him in future playthroughs, but in my first World State I was pretty satisfied with how thoroughly I crushed his ambitions and made his name synonymous with being a hated enemy of Thedas, just like I imagine my Hawke had wanted.

[Qun00]

Yes. Whining, lying, and terrorism caused by the epitome of why the Circles are necessary sure paid off in a series of convenient events involving an ancient magister blowing up most of the Chantry traditionalists, the Ferelden monarchy granting the rebels sanctuary when no one else would, a new Inquisition siding with the rebels, and the charity of the next Divine.

He created the enviroment where those events could happen. The Circle was pushed out of its comfort zone.

[Catilina]

His actions didn't pay off in my first universe. He was executed by his former friend for his despicable crimes, while the Mage Rebellion he inspired was enslaved by Tevinter cultists and defeated by the Templars he hated. The Templar Order then went on to have their good name restored under Ser Barris by heroically defeating the Venatori, demons, and the murderous mage extremists that had survived Fiona's death. After that the Circle is restored and the Chantry is reunited. The Templars and Seekers are both freed from their former leaders' corruption. Even the good things that happen to mages under Divine Cassandra happen largely in spite of him.

 

I imagine fate may end up being kinder to him in future playthroughs, but in my first World State I was pretty satisfied with how thoroughly I crushed his ambitions and made his name synonymous with being a hated enemy of Thedas, just like I imagine my Hawke had wanted.

His dead no matter, and he was aware of what risk. As I wrote, the rebellion started, the system shaked. The mages have a martyr. 

[thats1evildude]

He's not a martyr, though. No one even mentions him outside of Varric or Hawke in DAI, and in Asunder, Rhys reflects that Anders was a madman.

[TheKomandorShepard]

He's not a martyr, though. No one even mentions him outside of Varric or Hawke in DAI, and in Asunder, Rhys reflects that Anders was a madman.

Shhh, don't ruin their fantasy where Anders is great heroic martyr and everything went as he wanted.

[SilvinC]

I guess so. The old circle system is gone in all endings and we get better circles and a college. That would not have been possible without Anders' presence in DA2's storyline; it just wouldn't have happened the same way.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

His dead no matter, and he was aware of what risk. As I wrote, the rebellion started, the system shaked. The mages have a martyr.

His name did not inspire future mage generations as he hoped. Hawke thinks he was crazy. Varric the thinks he was crazy. The people of Thedas support the Templars and the Mage Rebellion failed. the Chantry reinstated the very thing he died to destroy and arose stronger from the ashes. So many mages suffered or were killed that most probably curse his name at this point. Most left that do see him as a martyr, were defeated by the Templars and the Inquisition.

[Dean_the_Young]

1. Bad analogy again. Really boring.

 

True. I can hardly expect most people to track real world events. 'ISIS is what Al Qaeda wanted' is a lot simpler and easier to sling around than 'Al Qaeda's plan wasn't for the security state of an apostate dictatorship they wished to overthrow to adopt a strategy they thought doomed and to seize the mantle of most-important-terrorists of the radical islamic movement from them while worsening views on islamic extremism across the Muslim world.'

 

One's simple and easy, and fits into popular narratives like 'Bush overreacted and the US did what AQ/OBL wanted.' The other actually approaches the truth.

 

 

2. Anders not failed on his goal. The revolution started. Anders never said, that he will freed immediately all of the mages in the whole Thedas. He said: “Ten years, a hundred years from now...” Ergo: He knew, this will not done from one moment to the next. The system was shaken. There's a good chance, that will never be as stable as it was.

 

 

'Shaking the system' wasn't Anders goal. Making it unstable was not Anders goal. Ending it, or the mages, was. Anders, by the time he was willing to commit terrorism, wanted to end the system entirely by forcing a conflict that would destroy one side or the other. Either was acceptable, as either would remove the dynamic he was fixated on. Post-Inquisition reforms to the system do not meet Anders' goal, because Anders' goal was the abolishment of the system in its entirety.

 

Anders was not a pro-reform mage for pro-mage supporters to nod and go 'he was a bit extreme but it worked.' It didn't. What Anders wanted and what actually happened are two different things. Feel free to validate terrorism, ill-planned rebellion, and mass human suffering all you want if it produced an outcome aligned with your goals- but it didn't work for Anders's end-state.

[Qun00]

True. I can hardly expect most people to track real world events. 'ISIS is what Al Qaeda wanted' is a lot simpler and easier to sling around than 'Al Qaeda's plan wasn't for the security state of an apostate dictatorship they wished to overthrow to adopt a strategy they thought doomed and to seize the mantle of most-important-terrorists of the radical islamic movement from them while worsening views on islamic extremism across the Muslim world.'

One's simple and easy, and fits into popular narratives like 'Bush overreacted and the US did what AQ/OBL wanted.' The other actually approaches the truth.


'Shaking the system' wasn't Anders goal. Making it unstable was not Anders goal. Ending it, or the mages, was. Anders, by the time he was willing to commit terrorism, wanted to end the system entirely by forcing a conflict that would destroy one side or the other. Either was acceptable, as either would remove the dynamic he was fixated on. Post-Inquisition reforms to the system do not meet Anders' goal, because Anders' goal was the abolishment of the system in its entirety.

Anders was not a pro-reform mage for pro-mage supporters to nod and go 'he was a bit extreme but it worked.' It didn't. What Anders wanted and what actually happened are two different things. Feel free to validate terrorism, ill-planned rebellion, and mass human suffering all you want if it produced an outcome aligned with your goals- but it didn't work for Anders's end-state.

Divine Leliana does abolish the Circles.

[Dean_the_Young]

He created the enviroment where those events could happen. The Circle was pushed out of its comfort zone.

 

But not destroyed as he intended, or with the outcomes he wanted, or along lines of events he had in mind.

 

Anders, like everyone else, had no idea of the machinations of Corypheus and Solas. Anders made a change in context, but it was the Conclave that left the power vacuume that allowed Divine Victoria and the subsequent preservation of the Circle systems. The Circles exist amongst them all, even Leliana.

 

Anders is no more responsible for the Conclave and the events of Inquisition than the Warden who recruited Anders. Being part of a causal chain of events doesn't mean all subsequent events are your responsibility or credit. People who come after you can, and frequently do, have more claims to responsibility.

 

Consider Solas. It was Solas's decision to let Corypheus unlock his orb that let the Conclave turn into a power vacuume. Without Solas, Divine Victoria wouldn't have had a vacency to fill.

[Dean_the_Young]

I guess so. The old circle system is gone in all endings and we get better circles and a college. That would not have been possible without Anders' presence in DA2's storyline; it just wouldn't have happened the same way.

 

Anders goal wasn't for better circles and a college, though, so why would you guess that he was successful?

[Catilina]

True. I can hardly expect most people to track real world events. 'ISIS is what Al Qaeda wanted' is a lot simpler and easier to sling around than 'Al Qaeda's plan wasn't for the security state of an apostate dictatorship they wished to overthrow to adopt a strategy they thought doomed and to seize the mantle of most-important-terrorists of the radical islamic movement from them while worsening views on islamic extremism across the Muslim world.'

 

One's simple and easy, and fits into popular narratives like 'Bush overreacted and the US did what AQ/OBL wanted.' The other actually approaches the truth.

 

 

'Shaking the system' wasn't Anders goal. Making it unstable was not Anders goal. Ending it, or the mages, was. Anders, by the time he was willing to commit terrorism, wanted to end the system entirely by forcing a conflict that would destroy one side or the other. Either was acceptable, as either would remove the dynamic he was fixated on. Post-Inquisition reforms to the system do not meet Anders' goal, because Anders' goal was the abolishment of the system in its entirety.

 

Anders was not a pro-reform mage for pro-mage supporters to nod and go 'he was a bit extreme but it worked.' It didn't. What Anders wanted and what actually happened are two different things. Feel free to validate terrorism, ill-planned rebellion, and mass human suffering all you want if it produced an outcome aligned with your goals- but it didn't work for Anders's end-state.

Full system abolishment? When he was alone (ok, he have few friend...), in ONE measly city? How? He certainly did not think it, he was possessed, not so stupid!

At the end of the game it is not said that if they win, they destroyed the system. It's nonsense.

[Shechinah]

Anders was the one who took the very first step towards mage freedom. Fiona and Cole simply put the cherry and toppings on the cake he left in the stove.

The new Divine can improve the mages' lives, but only thanks to the fact that the Circles have no power right now.

 

Anders baked jack nothing. All he did was leave the stove on and nearly burn down the house.

 

He blew up the Chantry because he saw it as presenting a chance at a compromise that he did not want. He intended to toss mages including children into a conflict that most of them were completely unprepared for including in terms of plans and resources. He didn't care how other mages wanted to go about securing more rights for themselves: he attempted to force his violent way onto them well-knowing his way would result in deaths.

 

Anders' act is a great way to sabotage the public support that had been building for mages: he basically confirmed almost all of the fears common folk have about mages by being a free mage that willingly became an abomination and commited a great act of desctruction using magic to further his own ends.

 

Fiona likewise didn't do anything since her rebellion failed and she was selling her people into slavery  by the time the Inquisition rolls around. Speaking of which, her people only gets saved by the intervention of an outside force in the form of the Inquisition.

[Steelcan]

Full system abolishment? When he was alone (ok, he have few friend...), in ONE measly city? How? He certainly did not think it, he was possessed, not so stupid!

At the end of the game it is not said that if they win, they destroyed the system. It's nonsense.

no one is saying Anders was sound of mind

[Dean_the_Young]

Full system abolishment? When he was alone (ok, he have few friend...), in ONE measly city? How? He certainly did not think it, he was possessed, not so stupid!

 

 

Anders certainly was stupid- just not as stupid as he'd be if you think his intended endstate was anything resembling the endstate of DAI.

 

By the end of DA2, Anders is, quite simply, crazy. He's obsessed, fixated, irrational, emotionally driven, not in total control of his own faculties, and fanatical, and that's on top of diving well into the sociopathic spectrum well after tending towards regular hyperbole. He is not a rational planner appealing to logic, popular support, and with a long-term agenda.

 

Anders' 'how' was Kirkwall itself- by provoking a massacre, and a resistance, to force people who didn't want a conflict to fight against the system he hated. The idea of the Mage Rebellion as it happened- Mages fighting against Templars after crackdowns and thus being led to fight for independence- was the extension of his plan.

 

But really, that's all there was too it. Anders didn't have a plan of how to 'win.' There was no interest in a mediation or moderate end-state either- Anders killed Elthina because he disavowed compromise entirely, not because he wanted a better one. Mages were either to win entirely, escaping the system without restriction, or be destroyed.

 

 

 

 

 

At the end of the game it is not said that if they win, they destroyed the system. It's nonsense.

 

 

And at the end of DAI, the system returns and order is re-established. Changed, certainly, but Anders wasn't interested in changing the system. Not by the end. He wanted to end it.

[Dean_the_Young]

His dead no matter, and he was aware of what risk. As I wrote, the rebellion started, the system shaked. The mages have a martyr. 

 

Who in-universe views Anders as a martyr?

 

There have been various mention of Anders, but none of them have suggested adoration or veneration, even from fellow-travelers.

[Dean_the_Young]

Anders baked jack nothing. All he did was leave the stove on and nearly burn down the house.

 

He blew up the Chantry because he saw it as presenting a chance at a compromise that he did not want. He intended to toss mages including children into a conflict that most of them were completely unprepared for including in terms of plans and resources. He didn't care how other mages wanted to go about securing more rights for themselves: he attempted to force his violent way onto them well-knowing his way would result in deaths.

 

Anders' act is a great way to sabotage the public support that had been building for mages: he basically confirmed almost all of the fears common folk have about mages by being a free mage that willingly became an abomination and commited a great act of desctruction using magic to further his own ends.

 

Fiona likewise didn't do anything since her rebellion failed and she was selling her people into slavery  by the time the Inquisition rolls around. Speaking of which, her people only gets saved by the intervention of an outside force in the form of the Inquisition.

 

Fiona did try something, she just fails. Repeatedly. Come DAI, Fiona isn't an effective actor- every outcome she has is dependent on the allowances and permissiveness of other actors making and allowing choices for her.

[Catilina]

His name did not inspire future mage generations as he hoped. Hawke thinks he was crazy. Varric the thinks he was crazy. The people of Thedas support the Templars and the Mage Rebellion failed. the Chantry reinstated the very thing he died to destroy and arose stronger from the ashes. So many mages suffered or were killed that most probably curse his name at this point. Most left that do see him as a martyr, were defeated by the Templars and the Inquisition.

My Hawke don't think, he is crazy, he told about him that he is a hero in the eyes of many people. (True, my Hawke spared his life...)