163 réponses à ce sujet

[straykat]

He was only a nice guy without strength and goals, and his anger was only frustration. He never believe before Justice's inspiration, that he can do anything for the mages' freedom.

But blaming only Justice are wrong way. At first Justice just inspired Anders, and gave him strength to free the Mages. But Anders extremely hated the Templars and the Circle from the beginning, and his hatred corrupted Justice. 

 

I really don't think so, but I'll drop it after this.

 

I mean, Justice was so out of it that he called Sir Pounce A Lot a "slave". And he treated Nathaniel with suspicion, like he was originally at Vigil's Keep to simply be a petty thief. Nathaniel explained to him it was his old home and he wanted to get his family's stuff, but the way Justice approached it was so black and white. I think DA2 was a natural followup to this behavior. He's crazy.

[Steelcan]

I really don't think so, but I'll drop it after this.

 

I mean, Justice was so out of it that he called Sir Pounce A Lot a "slave". And he treated Nathaniel with suspicion, like he was originally at Vigil's Keep to simply be a petty thief. Nathaniel explained to him it was his old home and he wanted to get his family's stuff, but the way Justice approached it was so black and white. I think DA2 was a natural followup to this behavior. He's crazy.

I don't think crazy really applies to spirits and demons, they should be an example of orange and blue morality

[Catilina]

I really don't think so, but I'll drop it after this.

 

I mean, Justice was so out of it that he called Sir Pounce A Lot a "slave". And he treated Nathaniel with suspicion, like he was originally at Vigil's Keep to simply be a petty thief. Nathaniel explained to him it was his old home and he wanted to get his family's stuff, but the way Justice approached it was so black and white. I think DA2 was a natural followup to this behavior. He's crazy.

Yes: the thinking in only black-and-white is dangerous. It was Justice's fault. Anders' uncontrollable anger was the result of a beautiful collaboration.

[Zero]

Yes: the thinking in only black-and-white is dangerous. It was Justice's fault. Anders' uncontrollable anger was the result of a beautiful collaboration.

 

 

It was Vengeance's fault. By the time Anders became an extremist, I really doubt Justice existed in the form he did during Awakening. And when we talk about spirits, that is something we have to take into account. 

 

Yet, we could blame Anders again, because it was his idea to fuse with Justice...

[straykat]

I don't think crazy really applies to spirits and demons, they should be an example of orange and blue morality

 

I suppose not. He definitely doesn't belong though. Even if people disagree on my main point, that's also what I just want to get across. I don't think he ever stood for justice, as the real world conceives of it. He was corrupted the minute he stepped here. Not just merging with Anders.

[Zero]

I suppose not. He definitely doesn't belong though. Even if people disagree on my main point, that's also what I just want to get across. I don't think he ever stood for justice, as the real world conceives of it. He was corrupted the minute he stepped here. Not just merging with Anders.

 

I guess he began to be corrupted when he felt envy of Kristoff and Aura's love for each other (something he admitted to have felt in one conversation with the Warden-Commander). Couple that with the loss of his purpose when we killed the Mother (having done justice for Kristoff's death at last) and his inability to understand the mortal world, and is not hard to understand why Anders feelings transformed him too easily into Vengance. 

[Fredward]

If Anders wasn't possessed by Justice and could only think in extremes I imagine he wouldn't be terribly unhappy with how things wound up. If you picked the mages anyway cuz I mean most of the mages in southern Thedas being turned into red lyrium monsters is horrifying. And if Vivi isn't Divine, the other two definitely loosen the leash. But he can't so he won't be happy. Ever. There is never going to be a perfectly just world anyway so even if they got exactly what they wanted they'd latch onto the next crusade.

 

As for Anders being the specific cause, I'm with Solas on this one:

 

 

• Solas: The fact that I, an apostate, have not been enslaved by demons must be quite vexing, Enchanter.
• Vivienne: Not at all, darling. You clearly have an exceptional gift for the Fade.
• Solas: You flatter me.
• Vivienne: I'm far more surprised you haven't been murdered by terrified villagers wielding pitchforks.
• Solas: Yes, packing all the mages into towers and threatening them with Templars certainly kept them safe.
• Vivienne: It did, until a rogue apostate destroyed Kirkwall's Chantry and started a fight most mages did not want.
• Solas: Your Circle was a tightly clamped lid on a boiling pot. It held for a while, and, unless you looked inside, it all seemed fine. And everyone feigned surprise when it finally burst.

 

 

Anders and his actions were like the final manifesting symtpom of a dying man's illness, but he wasn't really the illness.

[vertigomez]

I mean, Justice was so out of it that he called Sir Pounce A Lot a "slave". And he treated Nathaniel with suspicion, like he was originally at Vigil's Keep to simply be a petty thief. Nathaniel explained to him it was his old home and he wanted to get his family's stuff, but the way Justice approached it was so black and white. I think DA2 was a natural followup to this behavior. He's crazy.

Yeah, spirits aren't great with nuance. A spirit of Faith can only believe, a spirit of Compassion can only show mercy, but Justice demands action. Combined with Anders' anger it becomes Vengeance, less about anything just and more about lashing out, harnessing the pain you feel and inflicting it on those you hold responsible... whether or not they actually are is irrelevant.

[congokong]

In my game, the mages ended up enslaved to the Venatori and mostly wiped out. I doubt Anders wanted that. If you follow the mage path though, it really depends on the end-game's choices.

 

That being said, his plan was stupid but miraculously had a result he hoped for: a mage rebellion. If Meredith had any wits, she would have used the destruction of the chantry as support for further mage imprisonment; reducing Anders to a figure-head of the dangers of magic. Instead, she chose to execute every mage in the Circle and turned out to be a red lyrium psychopath who could jump 30 feet in the air and bring statues to life... Then, very conveniently for Anders, all the Circles somehow managed to rebel in unison afterwards.

[Catilina]

In my game, the mages ended up enslaved to the Venatori and mostly wiped out. I doubt Anders wanted that. If you follow the mage path though, it really depends on the end-game's choices.

 

That being said, his plan was stupid but miraculously had a result he hoped for: a mage rebellion. If Meredith had any wits, she would have used the destruction of the chantry as support for further mage imprisonment; reducing Anders to a figure-head of the dangers of magic. Instead, she chose to execute every mage in the circle and turned out to be a red lyrium psychopath who could jump 30 feet in the air and bring statues to life... Then, very conveniently for Anders, all the Circles somehow managed to rebel in unison afterwards.

(Yes. Meredith was a paranoid cruel lunatic. Thats why the better choice in DA2, that Hawke support the mages. Meredith must to die. With red lyrium or without, Meredith is  dangerous for the entire Kirkwall, and Hawke in the moment of choice do not know, that the templars will turn against her.)

[Dai Grepher]

No no no, Loghain's poisoning of Eamon paid off.

If not for that, Andraste's Ashes wouldn't have been found. Thus no Conclave explosion. Thus no Herald. Thus Corypheus wins.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Meredith was paranoid because she had an evil artifact driving her mad. It strikes me as unlikely she would have fit into Anders plan quite to orchestrate a massacre so easily had she not had the lyrium idol whispering to her. 

[Catilina]

Meredith was paranoid because she had an evil artifact driving her mad. It strikes me as unlikely she would have fit into Anders plan quite to orchestrate a massacre so easily had she not had the lyrium idol whispering to her. 

With red lyrium or without – Meredith was paranoid, cruel lunatic, and dangerous for the entire Kirkwall. She not only fit into Anders' plan, she was one of the root cause.

(Remember: in the Act1 Meredit was not tainted by red lyrium, but the Kirkwall Circle was extremely cruel. And the templars often abused their power: for example tranquilized Maddox and Karl...)

[Jedi Master of Orion]

No, the red lyrium clearly magnified her paranoia, cruelty, and insanity which is exactly what we see the Red Lyrium idol do to others. If she wasn't insane, she might not have unthinkingly done exactly what he wanted. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

No, the red lyrium clearly magnified her paranoia, cruelty, and insanity which is exactly what we see the Red Lyrium idol do to others. If she wasn't insane, she might not have unthinkingly done exactly what he wanted.

Meredith lobotomize someone for passing love notes. I don't doubt she would have annulled the circle without red lyrium

[Catilina]

No, the red lyrium clearly magnified her paranoia, cruelty, and insanity which is exactly what we see the Red Lyrium idol do to others. If she wasn't insane, she might not have unthinkingly done exactly what he wanted. 

Meredith was extremely talented in the process of becoming insane. The red lyrium probably helped, but pusillanimity to think that she would not been succeed alone.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Meredith was extremely talented in the process of becoming insane. The red lyrium probably helped, but pusillanimity to think that she would not been succeed alone.

 

Cullen tells us he's noticed something changed in her in act 2. It made a tangible noticeable difference to her behavior. 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Even Anders in Act 2 respected Meredith, even if he didn't like her. The change occurred between Acts 2 and 3 as she spent more time with the idol. 

[Catilina]

Cullen tells us he's noticed something changed in her in act 2. It made a tangible noticeable difference to her behavior. 

True. She became even more lunatic. As I wrote: the red lyrium can help to speed up the process. This does not contradict the fact that Meredith would have been able to completely alone is totally crazy. She was talented girl.

But in the Act1 She also seemed crazy enough not to be suitable for her position (I have to remind you again the cases of Maddox and Karl...).

[Catilina]

Even Anders in Act 2 respected Meredith, even if he didn't like her. The change occurred between Acts 2 and 3 as she spent more time with the idol. 

Anders told: Meredith not sadistic pervert, as Alric, Meredith believes in what she is doing. This not mean, that Meredith are not paranoid.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Insanity is not a talent, or a goal. Obviously. Given the damage we've seen it can do, I'd say red lyrium would account for most of the change we see in her.

[congokong]

Meredith was always cruel (ex: making Maddox tranquil over smuggled love letters), but I'm not sure if she would ever have exterminated the Circle without the red lyrium. Still, with examples like Maddox, I wouldn't put it past her.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Maybe she would have at some point, but probably not just because Anders destroyed the Chantry. He's not part of the Circle.

[Catilina]

Insanity is not a talent, or a goal. Obviously. Given the damage we've seen it can do, I'd say red lyrium would account for most of the change we see in her.

She flirted with forces, which she don't knew. She had done thing, what more dangerous than the blood magic for an educated mage. And: she became an abomination.

 

Yes, we can say: her goal was become more insane... 

[congokong]

Maybe she would have at some point, but probably not just because Anders destroyed the Chantry. He's not part of the Circle.

Still, anyone who makes a mage tranquil over love letters is probably just looking for an excuse to purge the mages, and/or they have such an egotistical view of their authority that any defiance demands the equivalent of beheading.