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[Dean_the_Young]

In my game, the mages ended up enslaved to the Venatori and mostly wiped out. I doubt Anders wanted that. If you follow the mage path though, it really depends on the end-game's choices.

 

That being said, his plan was stupid but miraculously had a result he hoped for: a mage rebellion. If Meredith had any wits, she would have used the destruction of the chantry as support for further mage imprisonment; reducing Anders to a figure-head of the dangers of magic. Instead, she chose to execute every mage in the Circle and turned out to be a red lyrium psychopath who could jump 30 feet in the air and bring statues to life... Then, very conveniently for Anders, all the Circles somehow managed to rebel in unison afterwards.

 

The mages being wiped out is an acceptable outcome Anders perspective. Remember, Anders is focused on the immediate need to act, not the long-term. What was important was to provoke a fight, not shape it into one that he would win. Anders priority was the end of the act/dynamic of oppression, not the mages' survival.

 

Meredith's annulment and an absolute loss for the mages aligns for that. If every mage is eradicated, Anders goal for no more Circle oppression is reached. There would be no more injustice of oppression/containment if there are no more mages- hence, moral priority fulfilled.

 

 

Yes, it is immoral in other ways- but by Act 3 Anders is quite blatant in demonstrating that he only considers his moral priorities a limiting factor, and mage survival isn't. It's also short-sighted, because mages will continue to be born- but Anders short-sightedness was also established, as he has no clear plan or linkage of steps for how starting a mage-templar war will actually lead to his desired end-state.

[Catilina]

Meredith was always cruel (ex: making Maddox tranquil over smuggled love letters), but I'm not sure if she would ever have exterminated the Circle without the red lyrium. Still, with examples like Maddox, I wouldn't put it past her.

Only it would have been a matter of time.  My opinion.

[congokong]

The mages being wiped out is an acceptable outcome Anders perspective. Remember, Anders is focused on the immediate need to act, not the long-term. What was important was to provoke a fight, not shape it into one that he would win. Anders priority was the end of the act/dynamic of oppression, not the mages' survival.

 

Meredith's annulment and an absolute loss for the mages aligns for that. If every mage is eradicated, Anders goal for no more Circle oppression is reached. There would be no more injustice of oppression/containment if there are no more mages- hence, moral priority fulfilled.

 

 

Yes, it is immoral in other ways- but by Act 3 Anders is quite blatant in demonstrating that he only considers his moral priorities a limiting factor, and mage survival isn't. It's also short-sighted, because mages will continue to be born- but Anders short-sightedness was also established, as he has no clear plan or linkage of steps for how starting a mage-templar war will actually lead to his desired end-state.

I'm aware that Anders followed a "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees" ideal, but the mages died in slavery in the scenario I mentioned. They went from one servitude to one that was far worse; one dedicated to Corypheus.

[Seraphim24]

Anders was a twit.

[Dean_the_Young]

I'm aware that Anders followed a "Better to die on your feet than live on your knees" ideal, but the mages died in slavery in the scenario I mentioned. They went from one servitude to one that was far worse; one dedicated to Corypheus.

 

And then they died. Problem solved, oppa Anders style.

[congokong]

And then they died. Problem solved, oppa Anders style.

So I don't think Anders would have wanted that outcome where they not only ended up dead, but ended up dead as slaves to something far worse than the templars.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't know that Anders would have been satisfied with the mages all dying, he just thought it was preferable to them living in the circles.

[MisterJB]

Anders defined his position quite clearly.
"It's obvious how things shouldn't be."

 

Well, when you burn the system down without any real plan of what is to come afterwards because "it can't get any worse", don't cry foul if life proves you wrong.

[vertigomez]

Anders defined his position quite clearly.
"It's obvious how things shouldn't be."

Well, when you burn the system down without any real plan of what is to come afterwards because "it can't get any worse", don't cry foul if life proves you wrong.

This isn't me bashing Anders, but it always bothered me that he never really seemed to have a solution for mages once they were free of the Circles? I'm genuinely curious if I missed something in his dialogue. The only thing he ever seems to say is, "Not all mages are bad" which... duh. But what about the ones that are?

Does he expect mages to police themselves? It's fine if he does, but to who's standard? He doesn't approve of blood mages and thinks they give mages a bad name. Is he going to leave it up to someone else, go after them himself preemptively even if they haven't hurt anyone? Or just the baddies who sacrifice people? It reminds me of this banter with Viv and Solas:

Vivienne: So, apostate. If the Circle is such a failure, what would be your solution? Would you have your fellow mages live among the people, unguarded, unwatched?
Solas: Yes.
Vivienne: And when they became possessed, or use their power to harm?
Solas: I would kill them. Magic is more elegant than a blade or a bow, but a murderer remains a murderer.
Vivienne: So you alone would pass judgment, repay murder with murder, or do we open this up to mobs and vigilantes? If you're going to dispense judgment upon violent mages yourself, you'll need eternal life and omniscience.

So... Solas is fine with blood magic, but would kill someone who was possessed. Anders is possessed but despises blood magic. Who has the moral high ground?

Based on his dialogue with Fenris I guess he was just hoping for a benevolent Tevinter.

Anders: So, there must be mages in Tevinter that don't use blood magic.
Fenris: Of course. There are slaves. The magisters do not hesitate to collar their own kind.
Anders: But no magisters?
Fenris: Why must you go on about this? No magister would turn down an advantage over his rivals. If he did, he'd be dead.

Fenris: You should have lived in Tevinter. You'd be happier there.
Anders: You're probably right.
Fenris: There, your magic would be a mark of honor. Apprenticed to the right Magister, you would do well.
Anders: Is there a down side?
Fenris: Only if you're bothered by owning a few slaves and performing the occasional blood ritual.
Anders: So they all do those things?
Fenris: Just the ones who don't complain about how powerless and persecuted they are.

[Cyberpunk]

Anders was the one who took the very first step towards mage freedom. Fiona and Cole simply put the cherry and toppings on the cake he left in the stove.

The new Divine can improve the mages' lives, but only thanks to the fact that the Circles have no power right now.

 

LOL unless the new divine is Vivienne! Although even then Anders sorta wins because a mage is in charge of the Chantry. 

[straykat]

LOL unless the new divine is Vivienne! Although even then Anders sorta wins because a mage is in charge of the Chantry. 

 

I don't know if he'd like that. He insisted on just "freedom"... but he didn't want mages to rule. He thought that kind of stuff was exactly what gave people the excuse to suppress them.

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Well Cory was going to kill the divine regardless of Anders action and we had to elect a new Divine, regardless of Anders again.

 

So no, he didn't help much. All that bi-polar abomination did was make Kirkwall more annoying to play through.

[straykat]

Well Cory blew up the divine regardless of Anders action and we had to elect a new Divine, regardless of Anders again.

 

So no, he didn't help much. All that bi-polar abomination did was make Kirkwall more annoying to play through.

 

This whole episode would have been interesting without Corypheus.

 

All I wanted was a good followup to DA2 and Asunder. Then they had to reinvent the wheel (as they always do). Even Fiona would have been better without the interference...whether you liked her or not.

[Sah291]

This whole episode would have been interesting without Corypheus.

All I wanted was a good followup to DA2 and Asunder. Then they had to reinvent the wheel (as they always do). Even Fiona would have been better without the interference...whether you liked her or not.

Yeah, I think Fiona, and the whole mage and templar rebellion got the short end of the stick, since DAI wasn't really a direct sequel to that storyline and had a new protagonist, etc. It was wrapped up quickly to tie loose ends....which I'm kinda actually glad they did, since we weren't playing as Hawke. But it also meant Fiona and company got little character development unfortunately.

That's said, I think it's pretty realistic what happened. A lot of attempts at social or political change fail or fizzle out, and it sort of mirrors what happened to Solas' own rebellion with the elves....they just got enslaved again, etc.

This is because when systems fall, you don't automatically get freedom to replace it... if people don't want or understand freedom, then it just isn't very likely; they repeat the same patterns because that's what they know. Or someone else with more power conquers or takes over. Unless someone is there enforcing it, but that brings with it other problems eventually, since it's replacing one system of force with another. It's complicated and there aren't any perfect or easy solutions.

As far as what Anders was hoping would replace the circle system? I do think self rule would have been the preferred end goal... but I don't agree he wanted absolutely no laws or oversights or didn't approve of compromise or moderate change. Justice was the spirit embodiment of law and order. He was angry because Kirwall and the Chantry were lawless, encouraging rogue fanatics, and not following their own ideals even. They didn't get rid of corruption in their own ranks, and the circle was protecting blood mages. Petrice was allowed to continue her incitement of violence, and was even promoted. So yeah, a reformed Chantry that was closer to following what Andraste taught, I think he would have been fairly happy with. And he probably would have approved of a mage friendly Inquisition too. I also think he would have approved of the Conclave, and of people like Cassandra and Leliana. The original Divine was sympathetic, and he probably would have approved of her too, but she really only moved to act after she saw the failure of Elthina's strategy in Kirkwall. She had a thousand years of tradition up against her and couldn't just change things singlehandedly. He didn't like Corypheus and didn't approve if Hawke tries to ally with him in Legacy.

He said he was removing the chance of compromise because there wasn't any. There was no equality under the law, etc. So I think you have to look at it from that context. When peaceful mechanisms for reform are blocked or there is no system in place to get justice, address grievances, or petition for rights, violence becomes more inevitable eventually. When people don't think they can get justice from the system, or the laws are unjust, then they take the law in their own hands...which is what Hawke does basically the entire game in DA2, supporting Aveline and the guard.

But yeah, I think Justice/Anders is widely misinterpreted as wanting to create chaos, or lawlessness, etc. When from his perspective I think he saw it as enforcing the law, and the ideals of Andraste, etc, because the Chantry had strayed far from it. Justice in DAA in fact was very Templar-like. He hates demons, blood magic, etc. His arguments in his manifesto (what we saw of them) were based on Andrastianism and the Chant, which was supposed to be the law of the land.

[Hazegurl]

Hawke says it best "Anders was crazy."

 

The only goal Anders wanted to achieve was a mage rebellion and he failed because his actions didn't even start a rebellion.  I'll go so far as to say that there never was a mage rebellion at all. In Asunder, where the so called rebellion begins, isn't even a rebellion. It's the vocal minority trying to drag everyone else into a rebellion and in the end, it's just mages running and fighting for their lives rather than a true goal oriented rebellion. By the time DAI rolls around, the Mages tried to make peace with the Divine who was already on their side, while the vocal minority were left to hole up in Fereldan. What was the end result?

 

They get sold into slavery for Tevinter.

Tranquils get murdered and skulls used for magic tools (a fate that could have befallen Ander's ex lover had Anders not killed him)

Mages are no longer welcomed in Fereldan (So much for Freedom to go anywhere)

And most of the population don't even trust them and would 'mob kill' them on sight. (once again, so much for Freedom)

Fiona's rebellion is squashed completely and relies heavily on Deus Ex Inquisitor to save them.

 

In my play through I sided with the Templars and made Vivi divine.  The Circles are stronger than ever and the College of Enchanters is merely a weak substitute with a shaky af future. 

 

And no one even knows if the Mages have better lives overall. Compared to what? How it was before? In my play through, my mage stated that he went home all the time. And considering the status Viv achieved, it seems like it's no different than any other world, those who have the drive, power, and means to accomplish more would anyway while those who don't would always fail, I'm not seeing how the COE or Leliana could change that.   I suppose a player can imagine the mages having better or more fair lives under Leliana and a stronger COE, But would Anders think so? I doubt it.  In the end, it's merely another compromise, which is what he said he did not want. If anything, I don't see how the COE wouldn't end up as another Circle system later down the line.  Didn't the Circle begin as a compromise after the Mages rebelled centuries ago? I forgot the details of how the first Circles started, but it seems like the COE is just a do over.

[Catilina]

Hawke says it best "Anders was crazy."

[...]

Not all Hawke told this. Mine told something completely different (he was friend of Anders, and absolutely supported him – not in love):

Spoiler

 

 

 

 

This is a little more nuanced, and more in line with the truth.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

In my play through I sided with the Templars and made Vivi divine.  The Circles are stronger than ever and the College of Enchanters is merely a weak substitute with a shaky af future. 

I don't think that's actually implied. Vivienne's Trespasser slide doesn't really note how big the College of Enchanters is. It just says they barely co-exist peacefully. In other Divine slides, it says the Circles have less numbers, but more political connections. Vivienne's doesn't mention the distribution. I'm pretty sure it's strongly implied that every Divine has exactly the same outcome by the end of Trespasser, though. They always have the Circle under Vivienne's control and the College of Enchanters as a free organization. The only difference is if the Circles are associated with the Chantry, or just with Vivienne. I wouldn't call Vivienne as Divine having made the Circles "stronger than ever", though. Mages aren't required to live in Circles anymore. That's a massive advancement in the freedom of mages and basically the whole point of the rebellion. They essentially get what they wanted in every world state. 

[Hazegurl]

Not all Hawke told this. Mine told something completely different (he was friend of Anders, and absolutely supported him – not in love): [spoiler]

This is a little more nuanced, and more in line with the truth.

No, I prefer Anders was crazy.

 

 

I don't think that's actually implied. Vivienne's Trespasser slide doesn't really note how big the College of Enchanters is. It just says they barely co-exist peacefully. In other Divine slides, it says the Circles have less numbers, but more political connections. Vivienne's doesn't mention the distribution. I'm pretty sure it's strongly implied that every Divine has exactly the same outcome by the end of Trespasser, though. They always have the Circle under Vivienne's control and the College of Enchanters as a free organization. The only difference is if the Circles are associated with the Chantry, or just with Vivienne. I wouldn't call Vivienne as Divine having made the Circles "stronger than ever", though. Mages aren't required to live in Circles anymore. That's a massive advancement in the freedom of mages and basically the whole point of the rebellion. They essentially get what they wanted in every world state. 

 

At the end of Trespasser  Divine Vivienne allows the COE to exists, after she crushed them completely at the end of Inquisition.  She's Divine with far more political power than the COE. I think it's safe to assume that her Circles have the upper hand and are stronger than the COE. 

 

If Leliana is Divine (mages allies), Viv starts a new Circle and they become a "force to be reckoned with".  Mages conscripted and Templar recruited choices seems to give a more peaceful outcome or an outcome where the Circles don't come out on top.

 

With Cass as Divine (mages allies) the COE is left with zero support and Viv only stops herself from destroying them as a favor to Cass.  If the mages are conscripts they form the COE after Viv essentially gets rid of the Bright Hand.   If Templars were recruited Viv doesn't fare too well with her Circle and the COE becomes a rival.

 

But yeah, the mages get to choose which organization they wish to join.  That's not what Anders was blowing up a Chantry for though.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

"There was nothing left in him except this insane need to start a war nobody could win," is probably extremely close to how I would describe him too.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But yeah, the mages get to choose which organization they wish to join.  That's not what Anders was blowing up a Chantry for though.

That's up to a lot of interpretation. IMO, the ability of mages to form their own organizations and break away from Chantry control, thus, avoiding the abuse and oppression by the Templars was why he blew up the Chantry. Mages now have the ability to rule themselves and don't have to submit to the Chantry in every world state. I think this probably does make Anders very happy in world states where he's still alive. 

[Dean_the_Young]

That's up to a lot of interpretation. IMO, the ability of mages to form their own organizations and break away from Chantry control, thus, avoiding the abuse and oppression by the Templars was why he blew up the Chantry. Mages now have the ability to rule themselves and don't have to submit to the Chantry in every world state. I think this probably does make Anders very happy in world states where he's still alive. 

 

Retroactively defining endstates to mesh with proscribed intentions and arguing whether they would have been compatible with his preferences is up to interpretation. Whether the endstates actually match his stated intentions, however, isn't- they either do, or do not, and none of Anders intentions come ME3 amounted to 'let Mages stay in the Circles if they want.'

 

Anders instigated a massacre for the definitive purpose for preventing compromise, and forced a fight (and either eradication or resistance) onto mages who didn't want a rebellion.

[Catilina]

Retroactively defining endstates to mesh with proscribed intentions and arguing whether they would have been compatible with his preferences is up to interpretation. Whether the endstates actually match his stated intentions, however, isn't- they either do, or do not, and none of Anders intentions come ME3 amounted to 'let Mages stay in the Circles if they want.'

 

Anders instigated a massacre for the definitive purpose for preventing compromise, and forced a fight (and either eradication or resistance) onto mages who didn't want a rebellion.

Never want everyone a revolution, yet there are revolutions. And who sparked the revolution, become hero or monster, depending on who you ask.

[Hazegurl]

That's up to a lot of interpretation. IMO, the ability of mages to form their own organizations and break away from Chantry control, thus, avoiding the abuse and oppression by the Templars was why he blew up the Chantry. Mages now have the ability to rule themselves and don't have to submit to the Chantry in every world state. I think this probably does make Anders very happy in world states where he's still alive. 

 

Anders: "There can be no half measures."

Anders: "There can be no peace."

Anders: "I removed the chance at compromise because there is no compromise."

Anders: "A quick death now or a slow one later--I'd rather die fighting."

Anders: "...they use fear to bludgeon us into submission and they do it with our blessing...."

Anders: "The sooner I die the sooner my name lives on to inspire generations."

 

The COE is basically a Circle v2.  Circles still exists.  Both organizations exists by the blessings of mages. It's a compromise. Almost everyone thinks Anders was crazy except for a high approval Hawke and maybe Varric. And weren't mages already governing themselves within the Circles? They just partied during their yearly meetings. Also, the Chantry never really governed the Circles, the mages were never under any forced servitude to the Chantry. 

 

I say the end states match up to our own desires moreso than Ander's.

 

Spoiler

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Anders: "There can be no half measures."

Anders: "There can be no peace."

Anders: "I removed the chance at compromise because there is no compromise."

Anders: "A quick death now or a slow one later--I'd rather die fighting."

Anders: "...they use fear to bludgeon us into submission and they do it with our blessing...."

Anders: "The sooner I die the sooner my name lives on to inspire generations."

 

The COE is basically a Circle v2.  Circles still exists.  Both organizations exists by the blessings of mages. It's a compromise. Almost everyone thinks Anders was crazy except for a high approval Hawke and maybe Varric. And weren't mages already governing themselves within the Circles? They just partied during their yearly meetings. Also, the Chantry never really governed the Circles, the mages were never under any forced servitude to the Chantry. 

 

I say the end states match up to our own desires moreso than Ander's.

 

Spoiler

In my opinion, most of what he was saying was specifically about the conflict with Meredith and Elthina. We're working with fairly limited dialog and I imagine are both prone to interpreting it in a way that matches out own bias, but my interpretation is that he was speaking about the incredibly abusive Circle in Kirkwall and the conversations you'd repeatedly had with Elthina over them. His attack was specifically against the city's Chantry lead, who had spoken about neutrality and compromise without actually working towards that, and with the Chantry still fully throwing their support behind the Templars in every practical way. 

 

Anders was against the system of every mage being forced into the Chantry controlled system with the Templars over them. Removing the Chantry, the Templars and allowing mages to make the choice where they want to go, I think, was what Anders wanted. They have the freedom to make their own choices. They're not pressed into submission. They're not forced to submit to the Chantry. Without official word from the writers, I think there is room for bending interpretations here, but from what I know about Anders character and what specifically he hated about Kirkwall, I still think he would be happy with this outcome.  Of course he'd be happier with Leliana than Vivienne, but I don't believe the world states will really be particularly different in the next game, anyway.

[Dean_the_Young]

Never want everyone a revolution, yet there are revolutions. And who sparked the revolution, become hero or monster, depending on who you ask.

 

Could you be more irrelevant if you tried?

 

This neither addresses what you quoted, or relates to what I quoted, or even addresses any point I've made in this thread.

 

Everyone else's desires, and everyone else's opinion on the endstate, is irrelevant to whether Anders got what Anders wanted from the Mage rebellion. If Anders didn't get what he wanted, then his actions didn't pay off- no matter how many people like what happened and think he should be happy with it.