163 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

In my opinion, most of what he was saying was specifically about the conflict with Meredith and Elthina. We're working with fairly limited dialog and I imagine are both prone to interpreting it in a way that matches out own bias, but my interpretation is that he was speaking about the incredibly abusive Circle in Kirkwall and the conversations you'd repeatedly had with Elthina over them. His attack was specifically against the city's Chantry lead, who had spoken about neutrality and compromise without actually working towards that, and with the Chantry still fully throwing their support behind the Templars in every practical way. 

 

Elthina absolutely was working towards neutrality. Anders simply couldn't except that not being with him didn't mean you weren't with the Templars. He never seemed to grasp that the Chantry wasn't supporting the Templars in Act 3 so much as that Meredith was out of even the Chantry's control. Elthina is only nominally in charge of Meredith when things went bad- Meredith is actually the most powerful person in the city, and paranoid enough that she accuses her own subordinates of being under the influence of maleficar if they oppose her. Elthina's only influence is what Meredith consents to, and no one has ever indicated what, exactly, Elthina could have done that wouldn't have had Meredith accusing her of being under blood magic and doing whatever she wanted anyway.

 

Nor was Anders targeting Elthina to open up a ways towards a desired neutrality or to make space for a netural actor. Elthina's death was the means, not the end, toward a different goal in vocal rejection of compromise.

 

And he absolutely did not cast his opposition to the Circles to being Kirkwall-specific. Anders opposed the restrictions of all Circles- even the relatively leniant Ferelden Circle- regardless of whether the people inside preferred them.

 

 

 

Anders was against the system of every mage being forced into the Chantry controlled system with the Templars over them. Removing the Chantry, the Templars and allowing mages to make the choice where they want to go, I think, was what Anders wanted. They have the freedom to make their own choices. They're not pressed into submission. They're not forced to submit to the Chantry. Without official word from the writers, I think there is room for bending interpretations here, but from what I know about Anders character and what specifically he hated about Kirkwall, I still think he would be happy with this outcome.  Of course he'd be happier with Leliana than Vivienne, but I don't believe the world states will really be particularly different in the next game, anyway.

 

 

 

If we selectively narrow what Anders said, and presume things he never indicated believing, sure. Your headcanon on Anders agreeing with you is valid.

[duckley]

I guess I would need to ask ... to whom did it pay off?

Certainly not the people killed in the blast. Not the tranquil left to fend for themselves after the rebellion. Not for the almost half of the Mages who didn't want to rebel. Not for the hundreds, maybe thousands of innocent civilians, mages, and templars, caught in the cross fire.

 

Not a payoff in my books.

[phoray]

The more I think about it, the more I believe Anders' actions had 10% or less to do with the rebellion. It was pretty darn clear in the book, and supported by Cassandra's seeker quest dialogue, that the rebellion had to do with Templar abuses over the long term as well as the short term choices to massacre grand enchanters and others to cover up the Tranquility cure secret. Anders got people riled up ? At best?

[thetinyevil]

Anders was more a lynch pin to the rebellion. If not for what he did, the Collage would have never been allowed to open their doors again, remember the Chantry closed the Collage of Enchanters down shortly after the events of Awakening. He was part of the change for mages weather people want to accept it or not. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

Anders was more a lynch pin to the rebellion. If not for what he did, the Collage would have never been allowed to open their doors again, remember the Chantry closed the Collage of Enchanters down shortly after the events of Awakening. He was part of the change for mages weather people want to accept it or not. 

Wasn't the college disbanded after Kirkwall in the wake of harsher restrictions the templars placed on the circles?

[Reznore57]

The more I think about it, the more I believe Anders' actions had 10% or less to do with the rebellion. It was pretty darn clear in the book, and supported by Cassandra's seeker quest dialogue, that the rebellion had to do with Templar abuses over the long term as well as the short term choices to massacre grand enchanters and others to cover up the Tranquility cure secret. Anders got people riled up ? At best?

 

I'm not sure I'd say that.

Kirkwall was known as the worst circle EVER , it was the circle system failing at his best , a paranoid control freak  Knight Commander with family issues related to mages and a depressed and shady First Enchanter.

It also shown the Chantry failing Big Time.The Divine and Seekers had more or less 7 years to act....and all they did was to send the left hand of the Divine who promptly got the hell out of here , and the Seeker just shrugged and declared "everything's fine!".

 

What Anders did forced everyone to look at Kirkwall , it wasn't going to end well anyway with the rumors of Exalted March.If say an Exalted March happened , you'd still get the illusion that the Chantry was still in control , and perhaps the problems weren't all related to the Circle and templars gone wild but a whole city state falling to corruption.

 

After the event in Kirkwall , everyone became agitated , a lot of things crumbled in a matter of speaking.

The Chantry wasn't effective in Kirkwall , some templars have gone rogue , some mages have gone wrong , the Seekers didn't show up .The right of Annulment is called for the crime of an apostate .A lone circle provoque rumors of a Exalted March.

 

When Asunder starts the tension is already through the roof in the Orlesian circle.Nobody is trusting the system anymore.

[thetinyevil]

Wasn't the college disbanded after Kirkwall in the wake of harsher restrictions the templars placed on the circles?

We found out about the disbanding of the Collage in DA2 to it happened just after or during the events of Awakening. Remember when the Warden runs into Wynne during Awakening and she sends you to fetch the other mage, the cantankerous herbalist, we learn that Wynne and the other mage are going to Orlias to the Collage to vote on the Circle leaving the Chantry.or not. A vote that was lost. But the Chantry couldn't take the chance that the Libertarians and Isolationist could convince the Aequitarians to vote with them. At least I think it was Isolationist that voted with the Libertarians.

 

You can find the info her http://dragonage.wik...s_of_Enchanters

[NaclynE]

Anders was the one who took the very first step towards mage freedom. Fiona and Cole simply put the cherry and toppings on the cake he left in the stove.

The new Divine can improve the mages' lives, but only thanks to the fact that the Circles have no power right now.

 

Or if not prove Viviannes "mages are dangerous and need to be put on a leash". What if she goes nuts if she's made divine and has this powerful templar army defending her?

[thetinyevil]

Or if not prove Viviannes "mages are dangerous and need to be put on a leash". What if she goes nuts if she's made divine and has this powerful templar army defending her?

I have a feeling Vivienne is going to wind up like Emperor Caligula, killed by her own Guards/Templars. Since I don't think templars are going to like taking orders form a thing that they have dominion over by divine right of the Maker.

[BloodKaiden]

I have a feeling Vivienne is going to wind up like Emperor Caligula, killed by her own Guards/Templars. Since I don't think templars are going to like taking orders form a thing that they have dominion over by divine right of the Maker.

I don't know about that. Vivienne may be a mage but she has very traditional thinking in terms of Circles, Templars, etc. Don't know why the Templars, non radicals ones anyway would have any issues with her ruling.

[thesuperdarkone2]

I don't know about that. Vivienne may be a mage but she has very traditional thinking in terms of Circles, Templars, etc. Don't know why the Templars, non radicals ones anyway would have any issues with her ruling.

Simple: she's a mage. The silver shield ending says the Templars are rebelling against her because they refuse to serve a mage.

[thetinyevil]

I don't know about that. Vivienne may be a mage but she has very traditional thinking in terms of Circles, Templars, etc. Don't know why the Templars, non radicals ones anyway would have any issues with her ruling.

 

Simple: she's a mage. The silver shield ending says the Templars are rebelling against her because they refuse to serve a mage.

Yep. 

[In Exile]

I don't know about that. Vivienne may be a mage but she has very traditional thinking in terms of Circles, Templars, etc. Don't know why the Templars, non radicals ones anyway would have any issues with her ruling.

The Tevinter Imperium started their effective return to a mageocracy when they elected a mage as Divine. Consolidating that much political power in a mage - and an outsider to the Chantry at that - is bound to create a lot of division even if Vivienne is a doctrinally a hardliner.

[Medhia_Nox]

That is just bad writing though? You have a mage that a dozen of veteran Wardens vouch and respect because of her abilities and determination. In DA:I she seems like a dumb milf. Sorry couldn't find a better word. There is literally nothing wrong with Fiona before that, many people accused her of being a mary sue, aka being perfect.

 

Well - before DA:I she is pretty much totally manipulated by Adrian... so - there's that. 

And: "F--k the Divine!" doesn't come from DA:I.  

I think she was an imbecile before the game.  *shrugs*

 

According to her commentary in DA:I - the wardens kicked her out (I'm using Wiki for that - I don't know if she says it because I cannot side with the mages.) 

[Jaison1986]

Fiona from the books at least had guts. She was the kind that would fight for her ideals to the bitter end. In the game she was reduced to a wimp to will make one bad deal after the other out of desperation, prefering to sell her people into slavery to Tevinter rather then fight the templars head on.

[Dai Grepher]

According to her commentary in DA:I - the wardens kicked her out (I'm using Wiki for that - I don't know if she says it because I cannot side with the mages.)

She does. Being cured of the taint made her an outcast and was a disruption to Wardens who felt they would never be free of the taint.

Fiona from the books at least had guts. She was the kind that would fight for her ideals to the bitter end. In the game she was reduced to a wimp to will make one bad deal after the other out of desperation, prefering to sell her people into slavery to Tevinter rather then fight the templars head on.

Mmm... no, she's always been an idiot. She slept with a king in the Deep Roads while on a serious mission, and then she abandoned her son with said king while demanding he be told that his mother was human and dead and that he be raised away from court.

[thats1evildude]

Fiona herself says she was kicked out of the Wardens because she couldn't be "re-initiated."

[thetinyevil]

Well - before DA:I she is pretty much totally manipulated by Adrian... so - there's that. 

And: "F--k the Divine!" doesn't come from DA:I.  

I think she was an imbecile before the game.  *shrugs*

 

According to her commentary in DA:I - the wardens kicked her out (I'm using Wiki for that - I don't know if she says it because I cannot side with the mages.) 

She wasn't manipulated by Adrian. She didn't have any real interaction with Adrian except for near the end and Adrian had no influnace over Fiona. Since Fiona had wanted freedom for mages before Adrian was even born. 

 

Also she had to leave the Wardens because she was no longer tainted. They became resentful of her since she was no longer shared their fate so she had to leave and return to the circle. Which she said was just as bad as slavery. 

 

But I have a feeling no matter what I say you will hate her since she is a mage who isn't completely brainwashed like Vivienne.

[thetinyevil]

She does. Being cured of the taint made her an outcast and was a disruption to Wardens who felt they would never be free of the taint.


Mmm... no, she's always been an idiot. She slept with a king in the Deep Roads while on a serious mission, and then she abandoned her son with said king while demanding he be told that his mother was human and dead and that he be raised away from court.

Yeah she is the first person to get frisky in the deep roads.

 

And she couldn't keep her son since she was still in the wardens at the time and later the Circle she couldn't have kept her son. Remember the hell Alistair went though just being the bastard of the King and human maid. Just image how bad it would have been if people had known his mother was a mage and not just a mage but an elven mage. And worst of all and Orlisn(sp). If he had been raised in the court he would have spent his whole childhood either dodging assassins, being used the the nobles of both countries. In other words his childhood would have been even worse then it was in the game. So she did what she thought was best for her child

[Voidinist]

Yeah she is the first person to get frisky in the deep roads.

 

And she couldn't keep her son since she was still in the wardens at the time and later the Circle she couldn't have kept her son. Remember the hell Alistair went though just being the bastard of the King and human maid. Just image how bad it would have been if people had known his mother was a mage and not just a mage but an elven mage. And worst of all and Orlisn(sp). If he had been raised in the court he would have spent his whole childhood either dodging assassins, being used the the nobles of both countries. In other words his childhood would have been even worse then it was in the game. So she did what she thought was best for her child

 

It's for all those reasons that she shouldn't have had sex with Maric to begin with. But alas, she is an impulsive doorknob who ruins everything she touches.

[congokong]

Yeah she is the first person to get frisky in the deep roads.

The Deep Roads... also known as Lovers' Lane.

[thetinyevil]

The Deep Roads... also known as Lovers' Lane.

It is dangerous and any moment could be your last. It isn't surprising that people would hook up down their. After all they say danger is an aphrodisiac. I also want to point out that it sounds like Dai Grepher is trying to sl*t shame Fiona.

[Dean_the_Young]

Fiona from the books at least had guts. She was the kind that would fight for her ideals to the bitter end. In the game she was reduced to a wimp to will make one bad deal after the other out of desperation, prefering to sell her people into slavery to Tevinter rather then fight the templars head on.

 

She claimed she was the sort to fight for her ideals to the bitter end. In practice, she survived on luck, good fortune, and the mercy of those around her to get away with as much as she did. In terms of actually fighting for her beliefs and, you know, planning how to go about things, she didn't have much practice or clue. Her extreme lack of planning regarding the mage rebellion shows that.

[Hellion Rex]

Fiona from the books at least had guts. She was the kind that would fight for her ideals to the bitter end. In the game she was reduced to a wimp to will make one bad deal after the other out of desperation, prefering to sell her people into slavery to Tevinter rather then fight the templars head on.

Meh, I wouldn't call what she did in Asunder "guts". She proposed a rebellion that had no backing, no real ground to stand on, and despite their well meaning intentions, the situation progressed badly. She should have negotiated from a position of strength, but she chose try and secede anyways.

[congokong]

It is dangerous and any moment could be your last. It isn't surprising that people would hook up down their.

The line every guy used, I wager.