168 réponses à ce sujet

[sandalisthemaker]

So what are your thoughts/ hopes/ concerns on the Solas situation?

 

How do you plan or at least hope to deal with him?  Do you think he can be redeemed? If not, do you think he can be defeated? 

 

Do you think he's right or justified in his plans?  

 

What of the elves flocking to him?  Are they part of Solas's new world? Do you think this will usher in real change for the elves as a whole, or do you have a bad feeling about what this means for contemporary elves?  

 

What about magic/mages?  Will everyone become a mage without the Veil?  

 

Or is all this moot because no modern Thedosians will be alive if Solas succeeds? 

[nightscrawl]

Spoiler

To answer seriously...
 
There is a great deal that is unknown, but I will say that I think he's greatly misguided. I also dislike the fact that he thinks HE is the sole arbiter of the way the world should be. The world has been going on with the Veil in place for thousands of years. Everyone, and all manner of creatures, have known nothing else, yet HE is the one to decide that he knows what's best for the world. That doesn't fly with me.
 

There are many millions of people all throughout Thedas content to live as they have been living*. I don't think that Solas has the right to determine the fate of all of those millions of people just because HE thinks they are somehow deprived, or not living up to their potential, or whatever other thought process. I don't think he alone gets to make that decision, no matter how old he is, no matter where he comes from.

This is really the main issue I have with Solas's viewpoint. Sure, he wants to restore "his people," whoever those are; I get that. He feels guilty for his previous actions, and for his possible future actions; I get that too. But what I cannot accept is the reasoning that it is somehow justified because he feels like he's walking around in a world of lobotomy victims. (Yes, I have seen that phrasing used in Solas discussions.) People have been living with the Veil in place for thousands of years. Did it never occur to Solas that perhaps people in general -- yes, even mages -- are accustomed to this existence, and that bringing down the Veil will be as chaotic for them as raising it was for his people all those millennia ago?



* I am of course referring to living in relation to the Veil being in place, not about living in poverty, or under oppression, or whatever other terrible circumstance, that, incidentally, we know also existed under the evanuris.

[edit]
I chose "redeem" because that fits my Inquisitor's personality, even though he was extremely pissed at Solas for the entire circumstance, which includes putting into motion the events that led to him losing his arm (by giving the orb to Corypheus in the first place). I don't know how it will play out in the next game, but I'll make that choice based on the circumstances of that game. However, I somehow doubt that any "choice" will have any true variation in consequence. The Veil will either be lifted or remain in place according to how the writers want the world to be. Solas will fade away, either in true death or disappear via some mysterious or magical means. The choice we make will (likely) be about roleplay, not about shaping the world.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 09 juillet 2016 - 12:07 .

[LobselVith8]

So what are your thoughts/ hopes/ concerns on the Solas situation?

 

I imagine my character would want to stop him, preferably by reaching through to him and making him realize that this course of action is wrong. Then my character would return to his people and retire.

 

How do you plan or at least hope to deal with him?  Do you think he can be redeemed? If not, do you think he can be defeated? 

 

It's hard to say. Perhaps the soul of the Old God (Urthemiel) that Asha'bellanar took from Morrigan's son may play a role in this - maybe it goes to someone in the Imperium, giving them an edge against Fen'Harel.

 

Do you think he's right or justified in his plans?   

 

No, I don't agree. I think there are alternatives that could be pursued. Admittedly, life has been incredibly unforgiving and unfair towards the elves, and I'm certainly not going to blame persecuted people for how they're treated (the purges of Alienages and the attacks against Dalish clans, for example), and humans are quick to forget elven heroes (Garahel, the Night Elves during the Orlesian occupation, the Dalish clans during the Fifth Blight) but I'd rather not participate in the likely genocide of all non-elven life on the continent.

 

Fen'Harel could use his power to help secure Marquise Briala's position over the Dales; I'd imagine Andrastian elves are likely heading towards the northern Dales (near the Winter Palace and Halamshiral) because of her reforms and the opportunity for prosperity. The southern Dales near Skyhold could be settled by the myriad of clans roaming Thedas. Perhaps the Crossroads could provide refugee for the elves to have safe haven from attacks by humanity. There are options, and I think my protagonist would like to help Fen'Harel realize that.

 

What of the elves flocking to him?  Are they part of Solas's new world? Do you think this will usher in real change for the elves as a whole, or do you have a bad feeling about what this means for contemporary elves?  

 

Well, I imagine many Andrastian elves would head to the Dales under the control of Marquise Briala, and at least one clan prospers in Wycome if Clan Lavellan sits on the council. If we take Varric giving Lavellan the position of Comte and "holdings" as an indication that the protagonist moves to Kirkwall, I could picture clans heading to the lands owned by Lavellan (similar to Mahariel asking for land to be given to the Dalish).

 

Logically, this should curtail the number of people who follow Solas since there are logical alternatives to blindly following someone on their mere say-so, but that's entirely dependent on whether or not Bioware factors this in or ignores it entirely.

 

What about magic/mages?  Will everyone become a mage without the Veil?  

 

Or is all this moot because no modern Thedosians will be alive if Solas succeeds? 

 

Hard to say due to how vague Fen'Harel was about the plan. Anything is possible.

[myahele]

At 1st I thought it was more figuratively speaking; that it won't literally burn the world, but the world will still "burn" in that people won't know how to deal with a veil-less world initially. And many may become victims of spirits/demons. Wars, political strife, etc.

 

But the way Solas talks about how he was Thedas to have a bit of peace before tearing down the veil reminds me of the "Of Mice and Men" scene.

 

Still, the world "evolved" around having a veil, so taking it down would probably cause some damage initially.

 

Maybe Solas is gathering elves in order to put them in a safe place? 

 

It's almost too simple thinking: no veil = immortality; veil = mortality. Surely that's not what Solas is thinking?

[Lazarillo]

How do you plan or at least hope to deal with him?  Do you think he can be redeemed? If not, do you think he can be defeated?

I think he's essentially irredeemable. My Inquisitor wants to try to get through with him, but as a player, I don't think there's a satisfying way they can write him as "coming around" to a reasonable way of thinking.
 

Do you think he's right or justified in his plans?

Of course not. At the risk of coming off like I'm giving a troll answer, I can't think of any possible justification for something as destructive as he claims to be planning. He justifies it to himself because he sees the peoples of Thedas as little more than animals (or, perhaps even less than animals, really).
 

What of the elves flocking to him?  Are they part of Solas's new world? Do you think this will usher in real change for the elves as a whole, or do you have a bad feeling about what this means for contemporary elves?

I want to think that Solas has some sort of "ark" to avoid whatever destructive effects his still-unknown designs will result in, and that the elves who are helping him expect to be saved through this. Otherwise, they're just fools, in my eyes. As to what his actions will mean to "modern" Elves, what I'd like to see is for it to open their eyes that the path to a better life isn't by re-creating the old ways, and to maybe see them create something new and different. I don't know if that's what will actually happen, but that's what I'd like to see.
 

What about magic/mages?  Will everyone become a mage without the Veil?

Assuming he succeeds (which I don't think is a safe assumption), then no, I doubt it. If anything, based on what he's suggesting, it'd probably just result in non-Mages being brain-fried. "Everyone will be as they were". Perhaps Elves could survive, but humans "were" nonexistent, and Dwarves were hive-minded slaves, apparently (which is somehow "better" than they are now in Solas' eyes).
 

Or is all this moot because no modern Thedosians will be alive if Solas succeeds?

Barring some mysterious other origin for Elves ("they're actually spirits who chose to take a physical form, like Cole" is a theory I've commonly seen), I don't think his endgame can be the literal death of everyone. I suspect he has a method to stack the odds that a certain chosen few make it out, whether by luck or by design (the aforementioned "ark" possibility, for example).

[Qun00]

We may debate on the extent and nature of this destruction, but those that believe nothing bad will result from his plan are deceiving themselves.

Otherwise there would be no need to stop Solas.

[Lazarillo]

We may debate on the extent and nature of this destruction, but those that believe nothing bad will result from his plan are deceiving themselves.

Yeah, the only real debate can be whether his plan to destroy the Veil is the direct cause of the apocalypse, or if it's an indirect thing, like the apocalypse will be what breaks the Veil (which is my personal pet theory, at this point).

[vertigomez]

No earthly idea how it will play out. That's up to the devs and the story they want to tell, but no, I don't think his decision is wise or in any way justified.

Not only is he taking it upon himself to make this decision for every person in Thedas (because Solas Knows Best™), but I'm annoyed by how he's not able to appreciate things for what they are. Dwarves can't just be dwarves, city elves and Dalish are all misguided and ignorant and ultimately cannot be considered Real Elves (a designation of which Solas and his kin are the sole arbiters)...

Bro can't look at people and say they're good enough, and he's convinced he knows better than anyone else what's good for them.

[Hellion Rex]

So what are your thoughts/ hopes/ concerns on the Solas situation?

 

How do you plan or at least hope to deal with him?  Do you think he can be redeemed? If not, do you think he can be defeated? 

 

Do you think he's right or justified in his plans?  

 

What of the elves flocking to him?  Are they part of Solas's new world? Do you think this will usher in real change for the elves as a whole, or do you have a bad feeling about what this means for contemporary elves?  

 

What about magic/mages?  Will everyone become a mage without the Veil?  

 

Or is all this moot because no modern Thedosians will be alive if Solas succeeds? 

In order:

 

1. For one, I already kind of hate how this has spread beyond a single game, but alas, we have no control over that. 

 

2. My plan is to kill him, simply put. I honestly don't think that he can be redeemed for what he has done, for what he has planned to do, and all those killed by him or in his name. Can he be defeated? Yes, but it's gonna take a crap ton more magic than any normal mage has on current Thedas. My guess is that we are gonna need some Arlathan tier firepower.

 

3. Is he justified? Hell to the no. He has no right to determine the fate of a world that he has not been a part of for millennia. How dare he pass judgment on us. He has no right to destroy our world simply so he can restore his. The only thing that will make this world safe is if he permanently meets his end. At the end of the day, even if he were "redeemed", what the hell would we do, simply forgive him and let bygones be bygones? As he is now, no bars can contain him, and I don't think modern mages have any spells that could remotely bind a being of his power. I'd wager Tranquility wouldn't stick either.

 

 

4. I think the modern elves are honestly screwed. I think he's preying on their insecurities and fears, and so they flock to him in droves. I feel for the City elves, as their lot, especially those who didn't want to drink the koolaid, will be made much worse.

 

5. As for mages and magic, I think the Veil coming down might spark the gift in a lot of the magicless people in Thedas, causing a lot of chaos as people suddenly manifest power, people of every age. And I think mages that are already gifted will have gain a powerful increase in ability, as reality mixes with raw Fade.

[Lazarillo]

1. For one, I already kind of hate how this has spread beyond a single game, but alas, we have no control over that.

I'm hoping it'll be treated the same way the DA2 cliffhanger was in Inquisition: just one step along the path of whatever they have planned. An important step, perhaps, but still not the actual focus. If it's the entire focus, then it's just "Inquisition 2" and that would be a real disappointment.

[straykat]

I think the only decent solution is to create a world of your own that provides alternatives... Give hope to elves yourself, for instance. Less would flock to other causes if you showed you cared too (be it Solas or Qunari)... that's only natural.

 

That doesn't ensure you'd win, but this is a start at least.

 

I think the world probably deserves to be burn though if you can't manage that.. or you create conditions that make it even worse.

 

 

I'll use pre WW1 Russia and Germany as an example. The ruling elite was so hardheaded and unflexible that they ended up victims of revolution and social upheaval. And the world burned.... at least for a time. But they had plenty of warnings to prevent that in late 19th century/beginning of the 20th. 

 

Assuming Bioware could write something half as interesting.

[TheKomandorShepard]

How do i plan deal with him, tranquility i think it's symbol would be perfect on his bald head.

 

I think Solas is another nutter mage not better than Corypheus or Evanuris, he wants to destroy world because of his whims and his sentimentality toward world that sucked anyway.He won't get a special treatment just because he was a companion.

 

As for rest of Thedas most likely at least majority of people dies.

[Reznore57]

My thoughts about Solas are pretty.bad.

Strangely enough the more time passes the more pissed off I get about the whole thing...

Honestly before Trespasser I knew Solas was planning on doing something huge and not so good , that he would be acting like a God but I thought perhaps he'd have some good reasons.

For example , the Blight is ment to wash over Thedas eventually and will destroy all the thing except Darkspawn , and let's pretend without the veil there would be ways to stop that even if it means killing tons of people ...there would be survivors.

It would have been really grim and I would have felt bad for Solas if he had to make that choice.

 

But that's not what it's about , it's about the fade , and spirits and elves who used to be something else ...And the fade , spirits and elves are all still there just not in the way Solas think is best.

Most ancient elves are dead , and those who are still alive are well still...alive.Yes eventually time will kill them , it might be a bitter pill to swallow ...but even when time wasn't a problem they destroyed themselves.

More destruction isn't going to fix anything ...

Mainly because there's a tiny tiny chance the main actual problem is Solas himself , I destroyed my world because my peers were going to destroy my world and now I'm going to destroy your world to bring that better world that actually never truly existed.

 

I'll give Solas a pass for destroying the ancient elves for now.It seems the Evanuris were loose and might have done far worst...

But hey I'm sure the Evanuris had perfect logical reason for going world destroyers in the first place right?

Perhaps they didn't like how things were going , perhaps things were changing and they weren't happy?

Best case scenario Solas will have an epiphany and realise he's turned into an Evanuris himself , and die trying to save current Thedas.

 

Yes , I say "die" because Solas , as it stands, can't live.He's far too powerful for the own good of everybody , and dude has opinions , and can't stay idle or sit on his hands.

If we let him go as powerful as he is today (or even more ) there's always the chance he will decide , all by himself , that he changed his mind and current Thedas should be nuked for his version of the greater good.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I need more information to understand what should be done. I can't make a decision about this without knowing exactly what would happen if the veil was taken down. The world existed without a veil before, so it doesn't stand to reason that it will just create an unlivable atmosphere that nothing will survive in. I'm not really into making major decisions based on superstition and hearsay. I need to get all the facts. I don't know what to do with Solas, because I don't understand his plan or what the consequences of fulfilling it will ultimately be.

[straykat]

I need more information to understand what should be done. I can't make a decision about this without knowing exactly what would happen if the veil was taken down. The world existed without a veil before, so it doesn't stand to reason that it will just create an unlivable atmosphere that nothing will survive in. I'm not really into making major decisions based on superstition and hearsay. I need to get all the facts. I don't know what to do with Solas, because I don't understand his plan or what the consequences of fulfilling it will ultimately be.

 

Knowing Bioware, it'll be fantasy Synthesis. It may not be unlivable, but if everyone gets "Fade-ified", that means magic and willpower based behavior across the board.

 

Also, that sort of sounds like a spin on the Architect's plan with darkspawn and mortals... he wanted to combine things.

 

Gameplay wise, I just hate it. This setting already grows tiresome because of magic in everything. I long for a freaking pirate game... maybe just play as some bandit. Hell, I'd just like to the knows and out of regular commoners. There's beauty in the mundane.   

 

A good fantasy has room for any kind of tale. There's probably 500 D&D novels alone (OK, that's an exaggeration, but still). But all of these big events are making DA small and limited. More like a film's setting. Same went for Mass Effect...until the recent asspull.

[Gervaise]

I think Solas can be defeated, otherwise he wouldn't have been so evasive when I asked why this world had to die.   He claimed he didn't want to tell me too much, so I'm guessing that it is possible to figure out what to do.   I suspect it has something to do with the foci that Dorian saw in the hands of the ancient Magisters.   May be there is still one secreted somewhere in the depths of Minrathous.   Or we will be told that the reason the Veil has to come down is to cleanse it of the darkspawn taint, so may be we will come up with an alternative plan.  There is also the let out that he says he will restore the world of the elves "even if it means this world must die".   This also indicates that if you could prove to him that he could restore them without such a drastic solution, then he might take it but it seems unlikely that he will stop his plan to restore the elves by any means necessary.   Anything is possible at the moment.

 

I don't know how anyone can condone his plans.   When he had the cheek to suggest I would do the same, I really did want to punch him.   People tend to feel more sympathetic towards him because he seemed such a reasonable person previously and he seems at pains to demonstrate he is not "a monster" to someone who was formerly his friend.   However, you get a clearer idea of his character when he speaks to someone he didn't respect.   When they ask why he bothered stopping the Qunari if he is going to destroy the world anyway, he answers: "There is no benefit in allowing harm to come to innocents before it is necessary."   So clearly if there had been benefits to letting the Qun overrun southern Thedas then he would have left well alone even though it would have harmed innocents.   Luckily for those people "the Qunari offended me", so he decided to take action.      For some reason it troubles him if a person he respects thinks badly of him but the reality is that he is utterly ruthless in pursuit of his plans.     He also makes it clear repeatedly that it will not turn out well for the modern races.    "If they must die, let them die in peace."  "Enjoy the time you have left."   And if the Inquisitor challenges him with "You'd murder countless people..." he doesn't deny it.

 

From the above, it is clear that it is not going to end well for the current inhabitants of Thedas, whether mage or not.    If nothing else the trauma of having a sudden release of magical energy is going to have bad effects on them but the constant references to death, murder and dying do imply it is going to be fatal.   As for the modern elves, may be he will hide them away in the Crossroads to keep them safe but I'm more of the opinion they are going to be hoodwinked by him.   He is very good at playing the humble wander who only wants to help and his followers are equally good at deception.   I very much doubt that he has informed them of the likely effects of his plans considering it is likely to involve their deaths as well.    I have no doubt he has a use for all these elves who are flocking to him but I'm really worried about what that might entail for them.   At best they are simply going to be canon fodder in the next game for our PC.   However, what if he was to convince them that mass suicide would bring down the Veil and restore them to what they once were?   It is a theoretical possibility since death on a large scale does weaken the Veil and of course if elves were originally spirits, then he would be telling them the truth because they would be put back to their original state.    Whatever the case, I don't think anything good is going to happen to modern elves as a result of his plans and I'm really not that bothered any more about his ancient buddies.

[The Ascendant]

Solas differs from Mythal in one crucial way; patience. Mythal used Flemeth and her various daughters over the centuries to subtlety change things in her favour. Solas however wants immediate and drastic change, regardless of the consequences that will happen because of that change.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Solas strikes me as someone who's got a very oddly specific value on life. He'll never kill someone unless he has a reason. But if he does have a reason, he won't hesitate. It might seem confusing about why he seems to care about anyone over the course of the game when he intended to destroy most life in Thedas anyway. But given Cole's comments about seeing people as real or not, I almost wonder if he shows compassion towards the people of Thedas in the same way people on this forum might really connect with their favorite Bioware characters. But from his perspective, sparing their lives by abandoning his plan would be like almost ignoring your real life friends and family for fictional ones.

 

Solas differs from Mythal in one crucial way; patience. Mythal used Flemeth and her various daughters over the centuries to subtlety change things in her favour. Solas however wants immediate and drastic change, regardless of the consequences that will happen because of that change.

 

We also don't know exactly what Mythal's goal is. She may not care at all about restoring the ancient elves, just revenge against her betrayers. 

[Gervaise]

Solas admitted to Cassandra that he doesn't believe in good and evil, only cause and effect.    So if he feels there is sufficient cause for him to take action then he will.   In this case he feels the sufficient cause is that he wants to restore the world of the elves and the effect will be destroying this world in the process.    The thing is he also claimed that he believed in the "right of all free thinking people to exist", which sort of runs contrary to his plan to destroy the world, until you realise that may be he is talking about "people" only in the context of the ancient elves, who I suppose you could argue currently do not exist as free thinking individuals, since he regards them as tranquil and thus not fully functioning as such but could do if he restores the world.   Then again, it is quite possible that everything he said was merely a mental exercise in reasoned debate and actually had no bearing on what he believes at all.

[Fredward]

I'd welcome Solas' plan... if it didn't involve everyone dying. Really, get rid of that part and I'd be all in.

 

I also feel like we're missing a piece of the puzzle, beyond Solas simply being a hypocritical poophead I think there's a maybe a more immediate, dire reason for why he wants to tear down the Veil beyond just restoring the dead elves. I hope so at least.

[myahele]

I honestly can't think of any world-ending event that surpasses even the threat of the Evanuris (lets not forget about the Forgotten Ones) 

 

Although I feel like the Veil did make everything "less" seems like Magic has been on the steady decline. Dragons now are a shade of what they used to me; there is a difference between an Ancient Dragon vs modern dragon. In fact, Dragon's Peak (?) pretty much says that the "primordial dragon bones" there are very similar to the Old Gods. Not only that, but these Ancient Dragons all seem to be a sleep, too, though are being slowly woken up due to Yavana.

 

What else is asleep? Titans. Ancient Elves also seem to be a perpetual sleep they can't wake up from. Seems like many ancient beings are quite literally "sleeping"

[Ghost Gal]

I don't believe for one second the devs will let Solas succeed or the elves unpunished for trying to help him.

 

He'll either get killed or defeated. If the latter, he'll realize the "error of his ways" for daring to try to make a better world for elves, then either die or go into Uthenera in shame, and the elves will be back to square one. The narrative will shake its finger at them saying, "You should focus on making things better now in this world instead of trying to make another," conveniently ignoring that humans own everything, only throw elves scraps, then actively push them down when they try to reach for more.

 

(Elf moves into human neighborhood? Burn and loot! Elven Bann? Humans throw a race riot! Dalish Elves got the Hinterlands? Not anymore! Briala got co-crowned with Gaspard or Celene? Give it time, I'm sure she'll be kicked out by next game. She remains in power with Gaspard only as long as he's alive and she has blackmail material over him, and her "power" with Celene lasts only as long as Celene feels like it. Considering she's turned on the elves as soon as helping them was inconvenient to her own power before, I don't trust her not to do it again.)

 

Solas will be defeated and the elves will be screwed over. That's all I see coming from this story arc.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I don't believe for one second the devs will let Solas succeed or the elves unpunished for trying to help him.

 

He'll either get killed or defeated. If the latter, he'll realize the "error of his ways" for daring to try to make a better world for elves, then either die or go into Uthenera in shame, and the elves will be back to square one. The narrative will shake its finger at them saying, "You should focus on making things better now in this world instead of trying to make another," conveniently ignoring that humans own everything, only throw elves scraps, then actively push them down when they try to reach for more.

 

(Elf moves into human neighborhood? Burn and loot! Elven Bann? Humans throw a race riot! Dalish Elves got the Hinterlands? Not anymore! Briala got co-crowned with Gaspard or Celene? Give it time, I'm sure she'll be kicked out by next game. She remains in power with Gaspard only as long as he's alive and she has blackmail material over him, and her "power" with Celene lasts only as long as Celene feels like it. Considering she's turned on the elves as soon as helping them was inconvenient to her own power before, I don't trust her not to do it again.)

 

Solas will be defeated and the elves will be screwed over. That's all I see coming from this story arc.

 

None of that makes genocide acceptable.

[vertigomez]

He'll either get killed or defeated. If the latter, he'll realize the "error of his ways" for daring to try to make a better world for elves, then either die or go into Uthenera in shame, and the elves will be back to square one. The narrative will shake its finger at them saying, "You should focus on making things better now in this world instead of trying to make another," conveniently ignoring that humans own everything, only throw elves scraps, then actively push them down when they try to reach for more.

It's not just humans that are going to be wiped out, you know (not that it would be okay if it were). Dwarves and qunari and any elves that get duped into helping Solas and his ancient god-mage kin are just as screwed.

[LobselVith8]

None of that makes genocide acceptable.

 

Ghost never claimed genocide was acceptable. Pointing out that the narrative will screw over the elves (which is precisely what Ghost explained) isn't the same as condoning genocide. At no point does Ghost say what Solas is doing is justified, simply that the narrative will punish the elves no matter what happens (which explains the point in Ghost addressing how the developers have pushed the reset button when it has come to elven progress).

 

In addition, Ghost is pointing out that the story will treat the idea of changing the status quo for elves as a villainous notion and make it seem as though elves should be content to ask humans for better treatment, even though history shows us exactly what happens when this transpires. At no point does Ghost say that Solas should succeed in wiping out non-elves.