168 réponses à ce sujet

[KaiserShep]

Somehow I see this sort of ending like Book Two of LoK and the world becomes integrated between spirits and the living and the real problem comes about from those jerk ancients that Solas claimed to have plans for.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Ghost never claimed genocide was acceptable. Pointing out that the narrative will screw over the elves (which is precisely what Ghost explained) isn't the same as condoning genocide. At no point does Ghost say what Solas is doing is justified, simply that the narrative will punish the elves no matter what happens (which explains the point in Ghost addressing how the developers have pushed the reset button when it has come to elven progress).

 

In addition, Ghost is pointing out that the story will treat the idea of changing the status quo for elves as a villainous notion and make it seem as though elves should be content to ask humans for better treatment, even though history shows us exactly what happens when this transpires. At no point does Ghost say that Solas should succeed in wiping out non-elves.

 

Changing the status quo for elves IS a villainous plan if you intend to commit genocide to do it. The narrative should wag his finger at him for trying to do it, at the very least.

[Zero]

So what are your thoughts/ hopes/ concerns on the Solas situation?
 
How do you plan or at least hope to deal with him?  Do you think he can be redeemed? If not, do you think he can be defeated?

 
Eggman must die. If he has teach us something, is that all he does goes horrible wrong. Even in the best scenario, his actions will doom again the elven race, so he must die.

 

 

Do you think he's right or justified in his plans?

 

As Corypheus was about his. So, nope.

 

What of the elves flocking to him? Are they part of Solas's new world? Do you think this will usher in real change for the elves as a whole, or do you have a bad feeling about what this means for contemporary elves?

 

They are a means to an end for him. He will kill them when they became useless for him (like he did to Felassan). 

 

What about magic/mages? Will everyone become a mage without the Veil?

Or is all this moot because no modern Thedosians will be alive if Solas succeeds? 

 

 

No one will survive if the egg succeed in his plans. Not in the form thedosians exists now, at least.

[LobselVith8]

Changing the status quo for elves IS a villainous plan if you intend to commit genocide to do it. The narrative should wag his finger at him for trying to do it, at the very least.

 

Considering that I already pointed out that Ghost never said anything about supporting Solas' plan, I'm not certain why you're still focusing on Solas' plan; you misread the post, and I explained why. Let me try again: Ghost's point of critique was that the status of the elves is likely going to be reset back to the status quo, meaning that any prior choices we made to try and provide some progressive gains for them will be undone. I think that's worth criticizing.

[DuskWanderer]

It is absolutely worth telling Solas that he is wrong. In fact, I can't think of a conceivable reason as to why he is right, other than his massive racism. 

 

Genocide is not okay. I think that's self evident. 

 

The world of the elves was so bad, or at least the Enavuris was, that Solas created the Veil. Why on Earth would he bring the world back if it was so terrible. One could argue it was the Evanuris, but they could very easily have been played against and killed each other, just as they killed Mythal. 

 

The reason he can do it is because he views humans and dwarves as not people. He probably views them similarly to barely sentient furniture. 

 

He is not right. There is no redemption. Just like the Evanuris he hates, such a timeless being cannot grow and learn from his mistakes. And the consequences are too real.

 

Murder him, kill him forever. Thedas might be bad, but it wouldn't be as bad as Egghead. 

[Zero]

Changing the status quo for elves IS a villainous plan if you intend to commit genocide to do it. The narrative should wag his finger at him for trying to do it, at the very least.

 

But is not for elves, because Solas don't consider current elves as elves. He will change the status quo for him and his few chosen. And the elves, regardless of Solas racist viewpoint and whatever fate the writers intend for him, will be paying for that. Heck, you could kill Solas, help Solas he could even hid in uthenera "in shame", and the ancient elves never get caught by humans, and the current elves still will pay for that, even if they help to stop him. Because BW writers like to oppress elves (and mages, for that instance).

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Considering that I already pointed out that Ghost never said anything about supporting Solas' plan, I'm not certain why you're still focusing on Solas' plan; you misread the post, and I explained why. Let me try again: Ghost's point of critique was that the status of the elves is likely going to be reset back to the status quo, meaning that any prior choices we made to try and provide some progressive gains for them will be undone. I think that's worth criticizing.

 

When the post I responded to put "the error of his ways" in quotation marks, implies that the narrative shaking it's finger at him would be bad, it sounded like Ghost was disappointed that wouldn't succeed. 

[LobselVith8]

But is not for elves, because Solas don't consider current elves as elves. He will change the status quo for him and his few chosen. And the elves, regardless of Solas racist viewpoint and whatever fate the writers intend for him, will be paying for that. Heck, you could kill Solas, help Solas he could even hid in uthenera "in shame", and the ancient elves never get caught by humans, and the current elves still will pay for that, even if they help to stop him. Because BW writers like to oppress elves (and mages, for that instance).

 

Given what happened to the Tabris and Mahariel boons (with all the elven progress being undone despite the Epilogue slides indicating that they had long-lasting effects), there is reason to be a bit cynical about Bioware's approach to the elves. Solas' actions could likely be what Bioware utilizes to undo Clan Lavellan at Wycome and Briala as Marquise simply because they don't want to bother dealing with why elves wouldn't head to those respective locations instead of joining Solas (they have shown a willingness to recton things for far less).

[vertigomez]

Considering that I already pointed out that Ghost never said anything about supporting Solas' plan, I'm not certain why you're still focusing on Solas' plan. Let me try again: Ghost's point of critique was that the status of the elves is likely going to be reset back to the status quo, meaning that any prior choices we made to try and provide some progressive gains for them will be undone. I think that's worth criticizing.

I think this is more of a series-wide thing and not an elf-specific thing, and also a consequence of the medium. Your decisions can only affect the world so much because they have to account for every player and their individual choices. That's why the status quo is god. It's not an attack directed at elves or elf fans.

Say that Divine Victoria is Leliana, Briala's pulling the strings in Orlais, Mahariel received the Hinterlands boon, and there are elves on the council in Wycome - there should be progress for elves. Let's say the world is fundamentally altered in that way, and we meet important elf NPCs who are high up in the Chantry hierarchy, who rise to nobility, who gain swaths of land for their people, who have a voice in politics. That's going to have major consequences, not only in bettering the lives of the elves but also in inciting discomfort and retaliation from humans who feel threatened by this progress.

And it's totally fair for elf fans to say eff you to salty humans, but look at this from a gameplay standpoint: how are the devs going to account for these changes in worlds where none of these pro-elf choices were made? How do they explain that an elf is eligible for the throne or that human commoners are rioting because elves are takin mer jerbs!!1 when, in somebody else's world state, the Dalish never got the Hinterlands and Briala was disgraced and Vivienne's on the Sunburst Throne?

(These aren't rhetorical questions, by the way. If anyone can think of a realistic solution I'd be glad to hear it. It would be nice if major changes had more significance than a minor change in dialogue, but so far that's not been the case.)

Maintaining the status quo is not a case of the devs intentionally insulting elf fans anymore than the continued state of the casteless is an insult to dwarf fans. Everybody gets railroaded. It's why siding with the mages or templars across all three games doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. It's why the Anvil of the Void doesn't matter very much. It's why Ferelden isn't any different regardless of whether you've got Anora/Alistair/Cousland on the throne.

Honestly, the only way I can foresee meaningful change is if the decision is taken out of the player's hands completely, like if Briala succeeded without any player input or Bhelen ALWAYS ended up on the throne. And in that case I'd suggest they write it in such a way that no one dies horribly and painfully to achieve that end, or else the contingent that might otherwise accept that momentary loss of control for the sake of the story, will end up objecting on moral grounds.

[Qun00]

I think this is more of a series-wide thing and not an elf-specific thing, and also a consequence of the medium. Your decisions can only affect the world so much because they have to account for every player and their individual choices. That's why the status quo is god. It's not an attack directed at elves or elf fans.

Say that Divine Victoria is Leliana, Briala's pulling the strings in Orlais, Mahariel received the Hinterlands boon, and there are elves on the council in Wycome - there should be progress for elves. Let's say the world is fundamentally altered in that way, and we meet important elf NPCs who are high up in the Chantry hierarchy, who rise to nobility, who gain swaths of land for their people, who have a voice in politics. That's going to have major consequences, not only in bettering the lives of the elves but also in inciting discomfort and retaliation from humans who feel threatened by this progress.

And it's totally fair for elf fans to say eff you to salty humans, but look at this from a gameplay standpoint: how are the devs going to account for these changes in worlds where none of these pro-elf choices were made? How do they explain that an elf is eligible for the throne or that human commoners are rioting because elves are takin mer jerbs!!1 when, in somebody else's world state, the Dalish never got the Hinterlands and Briala was disgraced and Vivienne's on the Sunburst Throne?

(These aren't rhetorical questions, by the way. If anyone can think of a realistic solution I'd be glad to hear it. It would be nice if major changes had more significance than a minor change in dialogue, but so far that's not been the case.)

Maintaining the status quo is not a case of the devs intentionally insulting elf fans anymore than the continued state of the casteless is an insult to dwarf fans. Everybody gets railroaded. It's why siding with the mages or templars across all three games doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. It's why the Anvil of the Void doesn't matter very much. It's why Ferelden isn't any different regardless of whether you've got Anora/Alistair/Cousland on the throne.

Honestly, the only way I can foresee meaningful change is if the decision is taken out of the player's hands completely, like if Briala succeeded without any player input or Bhelen ALWAYS ended up on the throne. And in that case I'd suggest they write it in such a way that no one dies horribly and painfully to achieve that end, or else the contingent that might otherwise accept that momentary loss of control for the sake of the story, will end up objecting on moral grounds.

The situation has changed for the mages, but only because the rebellion doesn't depend on player choices.

So can the elves hope for a better future? Yes, but it will take more than our actions alone.

[nightscrawl]

(These aren't rhetorical questions, by the way. If anyone can think of a realistic solution I'd be glad to hear it. It would be nice if major changes had more significance than a minor change in dialogue, but so far that's not been the case.)

The only way this could happen is if they made totally insular games, somewhat like DAO was. DAO was conceived, with its epilogues, as a single game. At the time, they didn't know whether they would have the opportunity to make another DA game, so we got all of these epilogues telling of the various results of our actions. What happened as a result of that? Bioware wrote themselves into a corner and had to do an unfortunate back track and say that these epilogues were mostly "rumor." And then comes the quandary regarding the status of the world for the following game...

 

Doing this insular method would require that they have a set canon that is the basis for each new game. If we go by the current default canon,

* we have a female, Dalish, warrior Warden, that committed the Ultimate Sacrifice,

* who killed Connor,

* sided with the mages,

* destroyed the Anvil of the Void,

* chose Behlen to rule Orzammar,

* brokered peace between the elves and werewolves,

* executed Loghain,

* and made Alistair and Anora rule together.

 

There is also a male, mage, diplomatic Hawke,

* who killed pretty much every antagonist (rather than leaving some alive, as you can with Gascard and Idunna),

* sided with the mages,

* and executed Anders.

 

The Inquisitor is a female, human, rogue,

* who didn't recruit ANY optional followers, nor was friends with anyone,

* didn't capture any keeps,

* completed In Hushed Whispers and chose the mages as allies (and still didn't recruit Dorian, what a jerk Inquisitor she is),

* sacrificed Hawke,

* allowed the Grey Wardens to stay,

* chose Celene,

* had Morrigan drink from the well,

* has Cassandra as Divine Victoria,

* maintained the Inquisition as a part of the Chantry,

* and vowed to stop Solas at all costs.

 

That is the default world, whether the individual player likes it or not. It is designed, particularly with respect to followers and side quests, to have as few loose ends as possible and to be as simple as possible. There is no Warden running around. There is no Hawke running around. There is no Kieran Old God Baby.

 

 

As much as the lack of true consequence and choice variation annoys some players, it is pretty clear that the Dragon Age devs like the idea of the player shaping Thedas through their actions; they even made an entire web application -- the DA Keep -- to facilitate this whole process for DAI and beyond. These imports, such as they are, and limited as they are, are likely here to stay, and with it the continued use of devices to render the player's choice mostly inconsequential.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the choice involving Iron Bull was the most daring use of choice consequence, but that could only be done because that was within the same game and they didn't have to account for millions of players importing different things, it was simply a yes/no choice check for that save game. However, the further result of that is that now Bull cannot have any greater role other than a simple cameo in any upcoming game because he could likely be dead.

 

So we either have these choices and accept the fact that they will mostly be ignored, written around, or totally retconned, while still having some limited evidence of "our" Thedas in each game via imports, OR we have Bioware use a set canon and play the game knowing that ALL of our choices are completely pointless anyway. I greatly prefer the former to the latter.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think there should definitely not be one single "canon" world state, but I think what people disagree about is how much they want the status quo to change for groups like mages and elves. I think the most fair solution is for a moderate amount of progression to be seen for all players, plus any lipservice towards your choices that's relevant. If you choose the extreme end progressive choices, they get dialed back a bit by dissension. If you try to hardline maintain the status quo, others still undermine you in various ways. I think it's totally fine, and even realistic, that the world isn't completely in tune with your agenda and not everything you do holds up in the long term. The answer to how to represent everyone's choices most fairly is slow progression, rather than either major progress suddenly or the status quo holding strong.

 

I think elves will see this, but that they've only really started on the elves "turn" for that. I always support elf rights, so I'm not trying to undermine them, here. My canon Warden and Inquisitor are both Dalish. The thing is that DA:O only really grazed over all the social issues in the game, while DA2 put the spotlight on mage issues. By the end of Inquisition, you see some fairly modest improvements for mages regardless what you've done up until that point. They've also largely closed out that plot, so the standing of mages is probably going to be stable for a while in the south, and we may not even go back there for a while. Now, though, it seems like they're moving towards a pretty heavy elf plot and Inquisition set up a lot of points towards that. I think we'll see progress for elves out of this, regardless what Solas does or what you think of him. I see it going like the mage plot, with the end resulting in moderate advances with a fairly optimistic outlook.

 

Even now, I think there's been signs that things are advancing for elves. Their ability to join the University of Orlais is one sign of that, and one way for them to gain recognition regardless what you do. With the elven uprising and Briala's novel plot, and the elves getting behind Solas, what we know is that elves are shifting into a state where, like mages, they're not willing to just accept their place in society anymore. To me, that says things will essentially change, regardless how the PC handles it, just as it does with mages. Even if you want to, you can't get all the cats back in the bag, basically. 

[Xilizhra]

I think this is more of a series-wide thing and not an elf-specific thing, and also a consequence of the medium. Your decisions can only affect the world so much because they have to account for every player and their individual choices. That's why the status quo is god. It's not an attack directed at elves or elf fans.

Say that Divine Victoria is Leliana, Briala's pulling the strings in Orlais, Mahariel received the Hinterlands boon, and there are elves on the council in Wycome - there should be progress for elves. Let's say the world is fundamentally altered in that way, and we meet important elf NPCs who are high up in the Chantry hierarchy, who rise to nobility, who gain swaths of land for their people, who have a voice in politics. That's going to have major consequences, not only in bettering the lives of the elves but also in inciting discomfort and retaliation from humans who feel threatened by this progress.

And it's totally fair for elf fans to say eff you to salty humans, but look at this from a gameplay standpoint: how are the devs going to account for these changes in worlds where none of these pro-elf choices were made? How do they explain that an elf is eligible for the throne or that human commoners are rioting because elves are takin mer jerbs!!1 when, in somebody else's world state, the Dalish never got the Hinterlands and Briala was disgraced and Vivienne's on the Sunburst Throne?

(These aren't rhetorical questions, by the way. If anyone can think of a realistic solution I'd be glad to hear it. It would be nice if major changes had more significance than a minor change in dialogue, but so far that's not been the case.)

Maintaining the status quo is not a case of the devs intentionally insulting elf fans anymore than the continued state of the casteless is an insult to dwarf fans. Everybody gets railroaded. It's why siding with the mages or templars across all three games doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot. It's why the Anvil of the Void doesn't matter very much. It's why Ferelden isn't any different regardless of whether you've got Anora/Alistair/Cousland on the throne.

Honestly, the only way I can foresee meaningful change is if the decision is taken out of the player's hands completely, like if Briala succeeded without any player input or Bhelen ALWAYS ended up on the throne. And in that case I'd suggest they write it in such a way that no one dies horribly and painfully to achieve that end, or else the contingent that might otherwise accept that momentary loss of control for the sake of the story, will end up objecting on moral grounds.

This is a complete nonissue, because the next game isn't taking place in southern Thedas. Maybe a few mentions of it in passing, maybe a few codex entries, but really, there's nothing standing in the way of the developers here, other than laziness.

[TheKomandorShepard]

This is a complete nonissue, because the next game isn't taking place in southern Thedas. Maybe a few mentions of it in passing, maybe a few codex entries, but really, there's nothing standing in the way of the developers here, other than laziness.

It doesn't matter, they won't remain in Tevinter forever. Boons were also thrown away despite in da 2 despite not taking place in Ferelden.There is a good reason why they started to cut off branches already in Trespasser.

[Gervaise]

Moving to a completely new area does give them the scope to recognise more choices simply because they need only reference them by hearsay or may be the odd cameo performance.   In a way they had to backtrack on the majority of boons in DAO because they knew DAI was still going to be covering areas in which those boons had been given.   So to stop people asking about why there was no sign of the Dalish boon in evidence in the Hinterlands, they dropped a conversation between Alistair and Merrill to say he was sorry that didn't work out in DA2  That was all the information we were given but it did make it clear to those who had played the Dalish origin that any benefits you accrued for your people by your actions had been done away with.    In any case there was foreshadowing in the epilogue screens in DAO suggesting that tensions were going to lead to problems and for the city elf boon it outright stated that things went sour pretty quickly.  

 

I don't actually believe that Briala will still be shadow Empress in the next game because of what happened in Trespasser.   The power of the Inquisition that kept her there is gone, even if you don't disband.    Still if she is still there, I will be pleasantly surprised.   They could resolve it either way because we are unlikely to get more than codices referring to the state of affairs in the south or perhaps a letter or two from southern rulers.

 

What gives me hope that we might achieve something lasting by way of an improvement for the elves in the next game is what happened with the mages.   No matter what your choices were in any of the previous games, their situation in the south is better than it was.   In every ending there is an independent College of Enchanters and a Chantry loyal Circle.   It is just the balance of power between the two that has changed according to your choices.    This of course has no bearing whatsoever on the next plot because we are moving to Tevinter where the mages already were free and able to govern themselves.    Not only that but what we did with the Templars has no bearing either because we are repeatedly told that Tevinter Templars are a separate organisation and nothing like their southern counterparts.      So again, they could let our choices stand because it wouldn't really be that relevant in the game to come.    The choice of Divine is also not likely to feature much, since the name she takes is the same, and she is not recognised in Tevinter, so again no real relevance to the plot.

 

Improving the lot of the elves would be a Thedas wide thing, that could only be accomplished if it was going to apply equally everywhere and something momentous occurred to act as the catalyst to bring that about.    The Solas plot would seem to be that plot hook, which is why I am optimistic this time round that I will be able to do something lasting for the elves to improve their status and prospects in life. 

 

Of course if Solas is successful, or we have to allow the Veil to drop because "reasons", then all the above may be rendered meaningless as we will likely then have a whole new world order. 

[nightscrawl]

This is a complete nonissue, because the next game isn't taking place in southern Thedas. Maybe a few mentions of it in passing, maybe a few codex entries, but really, there's nothing standing in the way of the developers here, other than laziness.

 

It's only a non-issue if they don't have any player choices regarding the fate of elves, or just let whatever happen regardless of player choice. As soon as player choice is brought into the mix, they have to decide how great of an impact those choices will have, or whether they will be overridden by other things. For example, the player did a lot of choosing between mages and templars between DAO, DA2, and DAI, but the end result is basically the same: the situation for mages is greatly improved. If you're one of those frothing anti-mage players who wants them all leashed Qunari-style and sided with Meredith because of it, well too bad for you.

 

In the end, it's not "laziness" but how the devs want to the world to be. Perhaps the devs don't want the elves to be free and happy, perhaps they do want to have that one downtrodden group that everyone spits on to generate angst and conflict in the series.

[Xilizhra]

In the end, it's not "laziness" but how the devs want to the world to be. Perhaps the devs don't want the elves to be free and happy, perhaps they do want to have that one downtrodden group that everyone spits on to generate angst and conflict in the series.

If that's the case, they deserve to be replaced. And with that being unfeasible, we should withdraw any and all support from them.

[nightscrawl]

^ ... The developers? It's their series, they can do what they want.

[TheKomandorShepard]

In the end, it's not "laziness" but how the devs want to the world to be. Perhaps the devs don't want the elves to be free and happy, perhaps they do want to have that one downtrodden group that everyone spits on to generate angst and conflict in the series.

It is laziness, instead creating plausible setting devs chose path of least resistance and cheap solutions to bring choices into same outcome, instead putting some thought and effeort into import function.You may use excuses "but this is what they wanted to do" same excuse can be used toward any lazy person. 

[Xilizhra]

^ ... The developers? It's their series, they can do what they want.

That's why it's unfeasible. If I had the power, I would tear them down like the Berlin Wall if they did something like that. As it is, all we can do is hope that they financially suffer... or just decide not to be colossal pricks, which I'm optimistic for.

[LobselVith8]

If that's the case, they deserve to be replaced. And with that being unfeasible, we should withdraw any and all support from them.

It does seem pointless to continue if the reset button keeps getting pressed. What's the point if none of your choices matter in a franchise that was advertised as unique for carrying over player choices?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I would be really surprised if Bioware never changes anything for the elves. I think they just want to pace their storylines. So, it was mages most recently. Signs point to elves next. Then maybe we'll deal with mages in the Qun.. or, like.. everyone in the Qun. Maybe we'll help the Casteless dwarves next, or it'll be another group that hasn't yet gotten much focus off in another area we don't know a lot about. I kind of get that they can't make the most extreme shifts for every group early on in the series, because then where do they go? I really don't think we'll just see a stagnate status quo, though. I think elves will get advances, just like the mages are getting them. Their storyline is probably what we'll primarily deal with over the next game or two. 

[vertigomez]

That's why it's unfeasible. If I had the power, I would tear them down like the Berlin Wall if they did something like that. As it is, all we can do is hope that they financially suffer... or just decide not to be colossal pricks, which I'm optimistic for.

Wtf?

Should we also boycott the company because there are poor people and casteless are considered non-people and qunari are regularly compared to beasts?

It's fiction. I don't understand this righteous indignation on behalf of a race that does not exist.

[Xilizhra]

Wtf?

Should we also boycott the company because there are poor people and casteless are considered non-people and qunari are regularly compared qunari to beasts?

It's fiction. I don't understand this righteous indignation on behalf of a race that does not exist.

They're a race heavily based off of numerous marginalized races IRL. It's an echo of reality.

[vertigomez]

They're a race heavily based off of numerous marginalized races IRL. It's an echo of reality.

But it's not reality. Bioware is not saying "eff you real life minorities" by having continued conflict with the elves. The dwarves are literally dying out and being slaughtered by darkspawn every day but I'm not personally offended by that despite the fact that entire cultures, IRL, have been callously wiped off the map before.