168 réponses à ce sujet

[vertigomez]

Thus far, we don't know whether they do or not. We'll see in the next game, I think.

They still won't be "anti-elf" as if they didn't invent elven culture in the first place. Fans are treating the devs like they're the human Chantry and not, you know, the ones who created them.

No one's answered my question - if the devs allow the state of casteless dwarves to continue, do they hate the casteless? (The answer is no.)

Yeah, I don't see it. I see anti elfyness though. That's not exactly the same as anti-elf.

Personally I don't see anti-elfyness. There are characters who feel that way, but the reveals about ancient elves and the nature of the Creators are meant to flesh out the universe, not attack elf fans. There's an anti "WE are the only REAL elves" sentiment, but Lavellan isn't punished for telling Solas that the Dalish aren't what he thinks they are. Merrill on the friendship path is encouraged to continue her work on the Eluvian and she sticks around to support the alienage elves. A romanced Lavellan can tell Solas that she wants to keep her vallaslin because the markings mean something different from what they once did.

The message isn't Elves Are Bad And Should Feel Bad, it's that divisiveness helps no one and all cultures should be looking towards the future. Just look at Varric's dialogue about how dwarves are flourishing on the surface.

[straykat]

They still won't be "anti-elf" as if they didn't invent elven culture in the first place. Fans are treating the devs like they're the human Chantry and not, you know, the ones who created them.

No one's answered my question - if the devs allow the state of casteless dwarves to continue, do they hate the casteless? (The answer is no.)


Personally I don't see anti-elfyness. There are characters who feel that way, but the reveals about ancient elves and the nature of the Creators are meant to flesh out the universe, not attack elf fans. There's an anti "WE are the only REAL elves" sentiment, but Lavellan isn't punished for telling Solas that the Dalish aren't what he thinks they are. Merrill on the friendship path is encouraged to continue her work on the Eluvian and she sticks around to support the alienage elves. A romanced Lavellan can tell Solas that she wants to keep her vallaslin because the markings mean something different from what they once did.

The message isn't Elves Are Bad And Should Feel Bad, it's that divisiveness helps no one and all cultures should be looking towards the future. Just look at Varric's dialogue about how dwarves are flourishing on the surface.

 

I mean, I see the anti-elfyness in Solas. He's doomed. This isn't gonna fly. And he's going to set back "elfyness" for centuries... if not forever. People will look at it with disgust when all is said and done.

 

But I think there will be plenty of elves left.

 

 

.... Or I could be speaking out of my ass (very likely), and Solas isn't doomed.. and they actually do the very thing Kirkbride said about TES. He actually said the Thalmor would "win". Maybe Bioware's version of the Thalmor (Solas) will win too. But I don't think that's Bioware's style. They go for more of the middle ground.

[Xilizhra]

They still won't be "anti-elf" as if they didn't invent elven culture in the first place. Fans are treating the devs like they're the human Chantry and not, you know, the ones who created them.

Creation isn't laudable if you only create them to be punching bags.

 

 

No one's answered my question - if the devs allow the state of casteless dwarves to continue, do they hate the casteless? (The answer is no.)

It's more likely that they don't care, in that instance.

 

 

Personally I don't see anti-elfyness. There are characters who feel that way, but the reveals about ancient elves and the nature of the Creators are meant to flesh out the universe, not attack elf fans. There's an anti "WE are the only REAL elves" sentiment, but Lavellan isn't punished for telling Solas that the Dalish aren't what he thinks they are. Merrill on the friendship path is encouraged to continue her work on the Eluvian and she sticks around to support the alienage elves. A romanced Lavellan can tell Solas that she wants to keep her vallaslin because the markings mean something different from what they once did.

The message isn't Elves Are Bad And Should Feel Bad, it's that divisiveness helps no one and all cultures should be looking towards the future. Just look at Varric's dialogue about how dwarves are flourishing on the surface.

Merrill doesn't continue her eluvian work, though, which is the major problem there. And divisiveness is sometimes necessary if the people in power will never act in good faith. I also strongly disagree with the idea that dwarves are "flourishing" on the surface, as they've continued to lose more biological features, like their stone sense. If they are inherently connected to the Stone, their souls after death might somehow merge with the Titans, but with that gone, they would likely just fizzle out upon death, lacking a connection to the Fade.

[vertigomez]

Creation isn't laudable if you only create them to be punching bags.

The residents of Dust Town literally exist to be punching bags. That doesn't mean they're not telling a good story.
 

It's more likely that they don't care, in that instance.

This makes no sense. Why imply that they actively dislike elves but then say they're just apathetic about casteless dwarves when both suffer unjustly? It's not like they've forgotten about them, or Cadash would have been an average surface dwarf like Harding instead of a casteless Carta dwarf who happens to live on the surface.

Merrill doesn't continue her eluvian work, though, which is the major problem there. And divisiveness is sometimes necessary if the people in power will never act in good faith.

She doesn't shatter the mirror on the friendship path, so if she wants to return to it she always can. On that path Hawke doesn't object to her use of blood magic. We know almost nothing about what she's doing post-DA2 except that she's the defacto hahren of the Kirkwall alienage.

When I say divisiveness I'm talking about divisiveness between elves. What good does it do to accuse other elves of not being elf enough because they follow a different religion or don't feel connected to magic?

I also strongly disagree with the idea that dwarves are "flourishing" on the surface, as they've continued to lose more biological features, like their stone sense. If they are inherently connected to the Stone, their souls after death might somehow merge with the Titans, but with that gone, they would likely just fizzle out upon death, lacking a connection to the Fade.

Yeah, we just disagree fundamentally here. I don't view Varric as less of a dwarf because he has no Stone sense. Flourishing to me means being alive and enjoying that life.

And I don't believe that oblivion after death is inherently wrong or undesirable. I would rather not exist than meld with a hivemind in an I-have-no-mouth-and-I-must-scream scenario.

[LobselVith8]

Creation isn't laudable if you only create them to be punching bags.

 

If it's true that the developers don't want the elves to have a homeland and that they want them to be in a perpetually disenfranchised position (as some are suggesting), I have to say I don't find any entertainment value in that. I feel like that makes it a waste of time to even play as an elven character when nothing you do matters.

[straykat]

I think the series kicked off with the elves in a bad position, for the express purpose of you changing them eventually. Same went for mages. I don't know why you guys doubt that. It's a world that's begging for changes.

 

My only problem is that we'll never to get see these changes actualized well. It's just too hard to do. 

[Xilizhra]

The residents of Dust Town literally exist to be punching bags. That doesn't mean they're not telling a good story.

They can be made better off with Bhelen in power, which is the only reason it works.

 

 

This makes no sense. Why imply that they actively dislike elves but then say they're just apathetic about casteless dwarves when both suffer unjustly? It's not like they've forgotten about them, or Cadash would have been an average surface dwarf like Harding instead of a casteless Carta dwarf who happens to live on the surface.

Because there are no actual plots revolving around them as of now.

 

 

She doesn't shatter the mirror on the friendship path, so if she wants to return to it she always can. On that path Hawke doesn't object to her use of blood magic. We know almost nothing about what she's doing post-DA2 except that she's the defacto hahren of the Kirkwall alienage.

When I say divisiveness I'm talking about divisiveness between elves. What good does it do to accuse other elves of not being elf enough because they follow a different religion or don't feel connected to magic?

But she doesn't return to it. In the end, that's my main problem. If she did, she'd have come up in the eluvian plot in DAI somewhere.

 

Yeah, we just disagree fundamentally here. I don't view Varric as less of a dwarf because he has no Stone sense. Flourishing to me means being alive and enjoying that life.

And I don't believe that oblivion after death is inherently wrong or undesirable. I would rather not exist than meld with a hivemind in an I-have-no-mouth-and-I-must-scream scenario.

My point is that we don't really know what the surface dwarves have lost, and that I don't think we should just accept them becoming the only dwarves left.

[LobselVith8]

The residents of Dust Town literally exist to be punching bags. That doesn't mean they're not telling a good story.

 

I imagine some of us feel optimistic because our actions could lead to the casteless getting more rights and freedoms. If our actions lead to no improvement for them, I think that would be a different story.

 

She doesn't shatter the mirror on the friendship path, so if she wants to return to it she always can. On that path Hawke doesn't object to her use of blood magic. We know almost nothing about what she's doing post-DA2 except that she's the defacto hahren of the Kirkwall alienage.

 

That Eluvian plot with Merrill really went nowhere.

 

When I say divisiveness I'm talking about divisiveness between elves. What good does it do to accuse other elves of not being elf enough because they follow a different religion or don't feel connected to magic?.

 

Considering that the Dalish and Andrastian elves don't live together (one is nomadic and operates outside Chantry law due to their religion, the other is confined to alienages and is subject to human rule), I don't think there would be much in the way of conversation between the two. Andrastian elves aren't provided with much in the way of perspective. Honestly, I thought Sera's story might have focused on her refusing an arrangement marriage due to her not being attracted to men and being viewed by the Andrastian elves as a 'flat eat' for leaving the alienage, but even her history really isn't touched on that much.

 

The Dales could have offered that possibility of the Dalish and Andrastian elves interacting in a significant way, but the developers didn't explore it. So Inquisition really didn't tell any commentary about any schism between the two ethnic groups because, aside from Lavellan meeting Briala, the two never really interacted that much in the narrative (aside from idle banter between NPCs in Skyhold).

[straykat]

That Eluvian plot with Merrill really went nowhere.

 

 

You can blame the "fans" themselves for that. The Arbor Wilds and Well was originally gonna be in the DA2 expansion. And who could have been there? Merrill.

[vertigomez]

Just to clarify: I do think things will change for elves, I just don't think those changes are going to be based on player choices. Real change happens in-universe when NPCs do something regardless of player input, because they can only account for their story, not every individual's world state.

They can be made better off with Bhelen in power, which is the only reason it works.

Only just like with Ambassador Briala, nothing actually changes because Bhelen-on-the-throne is completely optional.

Because there are no actual plots revolving around them as of now.

But if there are in the future and they suffer for it, that won't mean the devs hate dwarves.

But she doesn't return to it. In the end, that's my main problem. If she did, she'd have come up in the eluvian plot in DAI somewhere.

But she could. The fact that she doesn't just means she has other priorities right now (see: the alienage, displaced mages, etc.)

My point is that we don't really know what the surface dwarves have lost, and that I don't think we should just accept them becoming the only dwarves left.

We don't, and to some dwarves (like Harding) it doesn't matter a whit. To others (like Valta), it means the world. I don't want to lose Stone-centric dwarven culture because I think it's fascinating, but if it does implode on itself then... okay? The dwarves will rebuild and move on. Unlike what Solas posits, the nature of something can change and still be worthwhile.

[Xilizhra]

Only just like with Ambassador Briala, nothing actually changes because Bhelen-on-the-throne is completely optional.

The only reason this is acceptable is that we never see Orzammar again, therefore the changes can keep existing without us needing to look at them.

 

 

But she could. The fact that she doesn't just means she has other priorities right now (see: the alienage, displaced mages, etc.)

Then we'll see what happens in the fourth game.

 

 

We don't, and to some dwarves (like Harding) it doesn't matter a whit. To others (like Valta), it means the world. I don't want to lose Stone-centric dwarven culture because I think it's fascinating, but if it does implode on itself then... okay? The dwarves will rebuild and move on. Unlike what Solas posits, the nature of something can change and still be worthwhile.

But is it as worthwhile?

[Gervaise]

Strangely enough I was expecting Sera's story to involve rejecting an arranged marriage in some way, because of what I knew about alienage culture on marriage, but of course that would have made it too similar to Dorian's.    It was weird because we never were given a reason why she was so anti-elfy.   Her entire grudge against the noblewoman was the fact she lied about some cookies and told her not to go to the baker she got them from because he didn't like elves (which was untrue).   This was the same noblewoman who effectively had adopted her and left her an entire estate on her death.    I never quite understood why Sera hated being elfy and had such an extreme hatred of nobility based off the history given for her.   

 

The writers did some strange things with the elves for DAI and definitely in what PW did in Masked Empire.    I never got any intimation in DAO that the city elves were looking expectantly to the Dalish to do something for them, apart from take them in if they ran away from the alienage, which according to rumour they were quite willing to do.  Meanwhile I never got the impression that the Dalish were harbouring ideas of reconquering the Dales any time soon.  Then in Masked Empire we have Briala believing that the Dalish are working on behalf of all elves to raise their profile in the Dales, is feeding information to Felassan on that assumption and then is really disappointed to discover they haven't got any such intention.    Even if the clan did not regard the city elves in the way presented, just how were they even meant to know what was going on in Halamshiral?     There did seem to be a definite intent on reducing sympathy for the Dalish position, as against DAO when I felt their presentation was more balanced.   Mind you, that applies to the way a lot of the issues were dealt with in DAO

[LobselVith8]

You can blame the "fans" themselves for that. The Arbor Wilds and Well was originally gonna be in the DA2 expansion. And who could have been there? Merrill.

 

I heard about that, and I think you're right - Merrill likely would have been the one to serve as our elven expert on the things we saw there. I wasn't that fond of Hawke, though. Merrill's determination to help her people and the seemingly impossible task of building this ancient technology was one of the things I enjoyed about the game. I would have liked to see her hard work pay off in Inquisition.

[Zero]

The problem isn't that the devs are anti-"non-human race", but the fact that only human-based player decision bear any consequence in the recent games. Take, for example, Prince/Queen Cousland. Is an important decision that is even in the Keep, and is human only. Even if Warden Cousland will never appear again in any future games, there is a fact that Prince/Queen Cousland will be respected in the next games.

 

And you can't say is something romance-related, because Anora isn't a companion and isn't romanceable. 

 

Is too much to ask that other races decisions have the same treatment as the humans ones?

[straykat]

Strangely enough I was expecting Sera's story to involve rejecting an arranged marriage in some way, because of what I knew about alienage culture on marriage, but of course that would have made it too similar to Dorian's.    It was weird because we never were given a reason why she was so anti-elfy.   Her entire grudge against the noblewoman was the fact she lied about some cookies and told her not to go to the baker she got them from because he didn't like elves (which was untrue).   This was the same noblewoman who effectively had adopted her and left her an entire estate on her death.    I never quite understood why Sera hated being elfy and had such an extreme hatred of nobility based off the history given for her.   

 

The writers did some strange things with the elves for DAI and definitely in what PW did in Masked Empire.    I never got any intimation in DAO that the city elves were looking expectantly to the Dalish to do something for them, apart from take them in if they ran away from the alienage, which according to rumour they were quite willing to do.  Meanwhile I never got the impression that the Dalish were harbouring ideas of reconquering the Dales any time soon.  Then in Masked Empire we have Briala believing that the Dalish are working on behalf of all elves to raise their profile in the Dales, is feeding information to Felassan on that assumption and then is really disappointed to discover they haven't got any such intention.    Even if the clan did not regard the city elves in the way presented, just how were they even meant to know what was going on in Halamshiral?     There did seem to be a definite intent on reducing sympathy for the Dalish position, as against DAO when I felt their presentation was more balanced.   Mind you, that applies to the way a lot of the issues were dealt with in DAO

I don't think she has any other reason other than being "in the present" and individualistic. Dalish are defined by the past more than anything...and even a bit of the future.. but never really the present. They don't enjoy life as she does.

 

Or at least, that's why I like her. 

[vertigomez]

I imagine some of us feel optimistic because our actions could lead to the casteless getting more rights and freedoms. If our actions lead to no improvement for them, I think that would be a different story.

But there is no improvement, because Bhelen helps them and Harrowmont purges them and these choices can't have any impact because they're optional.

That Eluvian plot with Merrill really went nowhere.

Maybe the point wasn't that she helped, but that she wanted to. That she was trying.
 

Considering that the Dalish and Andrastian elves don't live together (one is nomadic and operates outside Chantry law due to their religion, the other is confined to alienages and is subject to human rule), I don't think there would be much in the way of conversation between the two. Andrastian elves aren't provided with much in the way of perspective.

It's not like faithful Dalish have more perspective, they just have a different one.

Honestly, I thought Sera's story might have focused on her refusing an arrangement marriage due to her not being attracted to men and being viewed by the Andrastian elves as a 'flat eat' for leaving the alienage, but even her history really isn't touched on that much.

Her history is that she's not elf enough for elves but Lady Emmald used her elf-ness against her and convinced her that a human man hated her for for her race, and when she found out the truth she decided it wasn't worth it, she just wanted to be Sera and not held to anyone's standards.

It's telling that Solas dismisses her by saying, "she's no more an elf than I am a horse." He and his ilk view themselves as The Great Arbiters of Elfyness, and you only qualify if you meet their standards (ancient, magical, immortal, and isolationist).
 

The Dales could have offered that possibility of the Dalish and Andrastian elves interacting in a significant way, but the developers didn't explore it. So Inquisition really didn't tell any commentary about any schism between the two ethnic groups because, aside from Lavellan meeting Briala, the two never really interacted that much in the narrative (aside from idle banter between NPCs in Skyhold).

The divisiveness isn't just an in-universe thing, though. It's fans treating some elves like they're More Elf than others.

The only reason this is acceptable is that we never see Orzammar again, therefore the changes can keep existing without us needing to look at them.

And if we do visit Orzammar and the slums are still full..?
 

But is it as worthwhile?

Um, absolutely? Who decides who's good enough? There's no wrong way to be an elf or a dwarf.

[straykat]

I heard about that, and I think you're right - Merrill likely would have been the one to serve as our elven expert on the things we saw there. I wasn't that fond of Hawke, though. Merrill's determination to help her people and the seemingly impossible task of building this ancient technology was one of the things I enjoyed about the game. I would have liked to see her hard work pay off in Inquisition.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't merely a guide, but was possibly bound to Flemeth if you chose. There were a few little things that would have made it a neat followup. Like that scene where she prayed at Mythal's shrine.

 

OTOH, sarcastic Hawke would have made a cool Flemeth avatar. I always thought she was a better daughter than Morrigan

[Xilizhra]

And if we do visit Orzammar and the slums are still full..?

Then we bring out the torches and pitchforks.

 

 

The divisiveness isn't just an in-universe thing, though. It's fans treating some elves like they're More Elf than others.

Hey, I see Sera as more of an elf than Sera herself does.

[Gervaise]

But in a way if Sera's attitude is based off the Dalish that is odd considering she was not likely to have had much contact with them.    Surely her attitude should be based off her experiences as a city elf.    Now may be she just doesn't like the way they knuckle under and put up with the misuse but then you'd think she'd admire the Dalish for their refusal to do so.   Sera claims to stand up for all the oppressed little people but what about the city elves?    Back in DAO one of the things that was emphasised was that at least they stood together and helped one another out in the alienages, even if life generally was bad for them all.    Isn't that what Sera was all about?   Friends sticking together.   

 

In DAI city elves became pretty much invisible.   We never see an alienage, so new players would have no idea what conditions are like.   There was only a brief reference to what occurred in Halamshiral when Celene put down the rebellion there, which was horrific considering she burnt everyone in their homes, after having already killed the rebels on the streets.    Nor did anyone mention about the reason the rebellion occurred in the first place.    It was like the city elves no longer mattered at all and their only real representative hated being seen as such.    Then at the end of Trespasser the elves are leaving to join Fen'Harel, with no real indication of why the city elves might feel driven to do so or for that matter, why they might feel compelled to join the Qun.

 

It is as though the writers assumed that everyone playing DAI had played the previous games and read all the books, so no need to show just how bad life can be for a city elf or why the Dalish might be so determined not to surrender their way of life in order to be acceptable in human ruled lands.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

You can blame the "fans" themselves for that. The Arbor Wilds and Well was originally gonna be in the DA2 expansion. And who could have been there? Merrill.

I don't really think it's the "fans" fault. Bioware dropped the ball on DA2 in a lot of ways. I liked the game a lot and it had my favorite characters in the series, but there are some major flaws. It was under-developed to start with and then Mark of the Assassin was absolute garbage, which hurt their credibility pitching more DLC. They sabotaged themselves, imo. It isn't the fans fault if the developers make mistakes and people don't just give them money, anyway. 

[straykat]

I don't really think it's the "fans" fault. Bioware dropped the ball on DA2 in a lot of ways. I liked the game a lot and it had my favorite characters in the series, but there are some major flaws. It was under-developed to start with and then Mark of the Assassin was absolute garbage, which hurt their credibility pitching more DLC. They sabotaged themselves, imo. It isn't the fans fault if the developers make mistakes and people don't just give them money, anyway. 

 

But I think they were getting hate well before MotA. I mean, there was some nastiness in the air at the time. It's like they couldn't please some people, no matter what.

 

Rule of thumb though: Most ideas are better in their original form/inspiration. I suspect this was one of them. It's too bad game creation is victim of complicated processes and timelines. Capitalism can be ugly sometimes. 

[LobselVith8]

It's not like faithful Dalish have more perspective, they just have a different one.

 

Considering that there are Dalish who mention that the Dalish and the city elves can learn from one another (when the subject of a hypothetical homeland comes up), I don't disagree. Each group certainly has their own perspective.

 

The divisiveness isn't just an in-universe thing, though. It's fans treating some elves like they're More Elf than others.

 

You mean from the Ameridan threads? I didn't get that impression from those threads. The criticisms were aimed at Bioware's inability to provide an actual Dalish hero since it seems they are only able to provide Andrastian ones (when it comes to elven characters), which is why examples like Garahel and Ameridan were cited in those threads. The constant Andrastian push was really the focus of the criticism since we only get a Dalish hero when that person is our main character.

[Gervaise]

Don't blame fans for not following up on story threads.    Even if it was the fault of fans that the didn't go ahead with the DLC for DA2, which seems an odd excuse in itself, they could have followed up on Merrill's eluvian a bit better than simply showing it in the Crossroads if she didn't destroy it (how did it get there?) and even Merrill herself considering that she had devoted her life to finding out more about them.   Instead we have the eluvians introduced separately in Masked Empire, giving them into the control of Briala and even that wasn't dealt with properly as it was covered by one war table mission (if you recruit Michel) and a quick reference by Solas, that failed to explain how Briala lost control of the entire network, how the Qunari were able to override her control, and why Solas had managed to gain control of everything, simply by "overriding" it himself.   If every eluvian required a different key what was the point of Masked Empire?   What was the point of killing Felassan?

[straykat]

Don't blame fans for not following up on story threads.    Even if it was the fault of fans that the didn't go ahead with the DLC for DA2, which seems an odd excuse in itself, they could have followed up on Merrill's eluvian a bit better than simply showing it in the Crossroads if she didn't destroy it (how did it get there?) and even Merrill herself considering that she had devoted her life to finding out more about them.   Instead we have the eluvians introduced separately in Masked Empire, giving them into the control of Briala and even that wasn't dealt with properly as it was covered by one war table mission (if you recruit Michel) and a quick reference by Solas, that failed to explain how Briala lost control of the entire network, how the Qunari were able to override her control, and why Solas had managed to gain control of everything, simply by "overriding" it himself.   If every eluvian required a different key what was the point of Masked Empire?   What was the point of killing Felassan?

 

The Briala story came when they already put the shutters on DA2. It's like they were already rethinking the whole thing then. 

 

It's depressing though. Even if I'm not the biggest "elfy" fan here, it's an injustice to have this character Merrill go through all of that, only to have a city elf unlock the secrets.... and freaking Gaspard and Celene seeing this world before poor Merrill ever did or would.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But I think they were getting hate well before MotA. I mean, there was some nastiness in the air at the time. It's like they couldn't please some people, no matter what.

 

Rule of thumb though: Most ideas are better in their original form/inspiration. I suspect this was one of them. It's too bad game creation is victim of complicated processes and timelines. Capitalism can be ugly sometimes. 

I think people were really shocked how limited the setting was. I pre-ordered for DA2 and I remember playing day one and being shocked when I realized we were never moving on from Kirkwall or seeing anything else, except for that one trip to the Deep Roads and the occasional jaunt on the beach. Everything in DA2 was pretty limited. I know the early complaints. Besides Legacy, which I remember people reacting pretty well to, though, they didn't manage to build on what they had by much. When they started out rocky and with a lot of disappointment, something like Mark of the Assassin was a massive mistake. 

 

I agree that the story probably would have played out better if they hadn't needed to scramble to make it all work this way, though, and I would have been happy to play this material with DA2's character lineup, which I liked a lot more than Inquisition's. I think Inquisition has done a lot to stabilize the DA franchise, though. As far as I've seen, it's pretty well received. It's at least hope that it's not a continuing nose dive. Hopefully next time won't have to seem so disjointed now that they've gotten the expansion stuff out of the way?